Well, even that I already know the answer, at least for me "normal" would be a life without dizziness...

BUT now that I'm into different VRT excercises, some of them which get me dizzy as hell(I know that is somehow the point), just for check it out, or for check my own progress, I give this excercises to "normal" people, and they also get dizzy as hell, with some of them.

So, sometimes I wonder, regarding VRT excercises, where does the recovery limit is?... where I don't get dizzy at all? or where I get mildly dizzy?, or maybe(where we all want to get) just waking up and feeling ok in every day's life. I mean I don't trey to go figure skating or something, just, as we all, get my old self back...

For example(and here is a good test), When I move my head in long circles, in a complete 360 degrees, facing forward, clokwise I get dizzy but counter clockwise I almost fall, in the opposite directon of my "bad ear", wich I believe is kind of a dizzy law, you sense movement to the other side of your affected ear...

Well, I don´t know if this is a high degree movement, or just a proof that my ear needs quite some extra work there... It kind of suprised me because most of the "moving head" Cooksey excercises, up and down, side to side, both over the same axis and leaning my head left and right, won´t get me dizzy at all, even at high speed...

But this circle your head thing, just needs about seven turns, even at low speed to get me dizzy as hell. So I gave this to some people "normal" people, and some of them got quite dizzy, others not so much...

Have you tried this?, I you're going to try it better do it sitting in a chair, don't want anybody falling... just want to check how strong this exercise is or how bad is my ear in any case...

And above all this I want to know is someone, like Subs for instance could tell me where does "normal" is... for example in the VOR excercises... Subs... when you hit the 100% spot, could you move your head without seeing "shaking" letters, or you just didn't get dizzy at all?, where did you did say stop to VRT, and started with your "just walk" therapy?

Cheers to all

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW!!!!:)


I just did the turning my head 360 degrees test and when i did it clockwise I did it in the direction of my good ear i felt okay then I did it in the direction of my bad ear and fell over! Lucky I had a bed behind me lol:)

I was feeling okay today aswell and after ding that I feel like everything has come back for 10 minutes and is going away again! How freaky is that?


:angel:

Thats funny .... I was just wondering the same type of thing as I finished some of my new VRT exercises that I was given this week. My friend tried one of them yesterday, and she didn't seem to sway, and I sway all over the place and can barely stand and I fall against the wall. Its one where you close your eyes and hold your feet almost one behind the other and count to 30 seconds. I tried yours and it made me dizzy also. I have been wondering also whats normal dizziness with these exercises.

Curiously enough, yesterday I was "testing" a friend to check this out.

Since my last decomp, from two-three weeks on, so this came to my mind againd like when I wrote this post originally.

By the way the "360 test" really is also a VRT exercise given to my father along with some of the Cooksey exercises head movements, to recover forma mild vertigo incident some years ago.

I tried it just to check, and I noticesd this was some of the toughest exercises of them all, and now I use it sometimes as a "measure point" for my progress.

When my friend tried it, she went dizzier than me, and the balance test you mentioned it's similar to the "Romberg Test", and I tried that once ona a cousin and we both had a hard time with it.

In any case I've noticed that evena t "normal" state not two people are alike interms of balance, some have good, some have poor balance, so that's why it's hard to tell.

Right now, I'm still unbalanced even as I have done great progress with my exercises, and even as a I can endure some of them quite fine, including the "360 test" where I can do more turns than before, I'm still dizzy, that's why I try to se if MAV is my problem, since when kmy dizziness is "conected" I can deal with trouble even with the mildest exercises again.

Finally Where is NORMAL?, as I stated then, my only measure should be: When I'm not dizzy anymore.

PS

Giving an extra point to VRT, during the past few says where I felt terrible, I started this "testing", on myself, trying to pinpoint a cause, besides my allergies and the MAV possibility, so I began to increase the number of my VRT routines froms "one and a half" daily to two complete sets, and they've seemed to help in an overall state.

Nevertheless, I'm still dealing with some "crisis" during the day(some days),the ones I think could be MAV related, but the overall feeling is of improvement, even wih the little time I started to do it(my VRT increase in sets).

Stargrave,

I dont know for sure if I have some sort of vestibuar injury but my symptoms over the last 4 months are directly in line with it.

Over the past few days I have felt great and today I had a slight blip but felt about '95%'.

I did the 360 degree test as you described and I felt absolutley awful. I was mega nauseus and dizzy like right back at the start of all this.

Thing is, 10 minutes later I felt good and tonight I feel absolutely brilliant! I feel now like I did before I got dizzy.

What do you think this is? Could these excercises make me better? I know tommorow will be up and down again but the way i feel now is great - connected with the world again, no movement inside me, eyes feel good and I dont feel at all dizzy or anxious.

Is this a good sign and a sign i might be recovering?

Hi Stargrave

...."When I move my head in long circles, in a complete 360 degrees"....

U mean turn your body? If ur body is stationary its impossible to turn ur head 360deg---right?

:cool:

Hi Stargrave

...."When I move my head in long circles, in a complete 360 degrees"....

U mean turn your body? If ur body is stationary its impossible to turn ur head 360deg---right?

:cool:

Ha Ha, well what I meant is that I stay still and just turn my head around in full cirlces, either clockwise or counter clock wise...

Surely I can't make the real 360 like Megan In The Exorcist, I'm sure that would not only make me dizzy, but it surely will hurt.. to say the least ;)

Ha Ha, well what I meant is that I stay still and just turn my head around in full cirlces, either clockwise or counter clock wise...

Surely I can't make the real 360 like Megan In The Exorcist, I'm sure that would not only make me dizzy, but it surely will hurt.. to say the least ;)

Ok

So I stand still and turn my head first to the left as far as I can--then to the right as far as I can---repeatably---at various speeds

Then I stand still and turn my head first to the right as far as I can----then to the left as far as I can----repeatably---at various speeds

I have no problem with any dizzinesses--disequilibrium---wooziness, vision, etc...no nothing!!

:cool:

Hi Stargrave

Normal is whenever u return to the "state" u where in before this junk arrived.

For each of us it may/will be different---depending on how u were before,i.e., if vision was an issue before---it will prob continue to be, etc....

..."Subs... when you hit the 100% spot, could you move your head without seeing "shaking" letters, or you just didn't get dizzy at all?, where did you did say stop to VRT, and started with your "just walk" therapy?"...

At 100% I returned to the "state" I was in prior to this junk---for me that meant---no (uncompensated) vision probs, shaking letters, dizziness, brain fog, vertigo,etc

---for example---prior to this could walk up a/the spiral stair case carrying a very big cup of coffee filled to the top without holding on to banister and never spill a drop, work on house using 20foot ladder, work on 2nd story roof with 30deg slant, under car---shovel our way out of very high snow, etc...so

---I returned to my "for me" normal prior to this junk "state"--- including the return to the vision prob I had prior to this junk---which was loss of binocular vision---due to a submarine accident---which my brain had compensated for---prior to the arrival of "this piece of work"

I still do VRT & walk & occasional MEP---in fact just got back from walk---great night--for it!!

So where ever u were prior to this junk---is where u should be when at 100% full compensation

as u know---if there is a permanent deficit which the brain can not make up---or if the injury is not stabilized---it is possible not to get to a full 100%---but that is kind of rare---but it happens.

:cool:

subs

whats an example of a permanent deficit? i undertsnad that not being stable but when you say some people won't reach 100% if they have a permanent deficit what do you mean?

subs

whats an example of a permanent deficit? i undertsnad that not being stable but when you say some people won't reach 100% if they have a permanent deficit what do you mean?

Comeandrelax

When the injury is of such a magnitude that the brain can not find & implement a workaround that provides what is needed for a full and necessary function.

For example---if a significant part of the 8th nerve was destroyed/damaged by a virus(whatever) and the brain could find no way to bypass it--for the necessary signal connectivity from/to the inner ear---the most drastic case would be complete severing of the nerve---which is done---sometimes---intentionally---by an operation(see Dr/Prof Hain Northwestern Univ web site--"sticky")

The person would/could compensate(maybe)---with the remaining side---but would not reach 100%

:cool:

how do they find that or diagnose that?

what i mean by that is how do you know if that is your case or not? and since your body learns to get the signals from diffrent places and thats compensation why does it matter what part of the nerve is damaged?

what i mean by that is how do you know if that is your case or not? and since your body learns to get the signals from diffrent places and thats compensation why does it matter what part of the nerve is damaged?

The primary path from the sensor to the brain's equilibrium center---is a portion of the 8th nerve--an alternate path will not always provide---signals with the same level of fidelity---some times that can be compensated for some times not---varies with each person

---u know---by seeing a well qualified Doc---who does a significant amount of research and a significant amount of clinical practice---even then it just buys u a Dx with a higher probability---since---there is no direct testing---unless they open u up---a dicey endeavor

Read the info in the "sticky"---its all there.

:cool:

Ok

So I stand still and turn my head first to the left as far as I can--then to the right as far as I can---repeatably---at various speeds

Then I stand still and turn my head first to the right as far as I can----then to the left as far as I can----repeatably---at various speeds

I have no problem with any dizzinesses--disequilibrium---wooziness, vision, etc...no nothing!!

:cool:

Well, not exactly, I mean you don't have to turn your head as far as you can, you just have to move your head in wide circles, making complete 360 degree turns on the vertical axis, trying to complete at first ten turns to one side, and then ten turns to ehe opposite side.

I'll use the dizzy smily as an example: :dizzy: you have o turn your head folowing the a path exactly like this smily's eyes are moving, but obviously with your head, first to one side then to the other, counting ten full circles to each side.

In my case turning against my bad ear is where I get the most dizziness, and even as I've managed to progress up to 15 turns now, when I got woozy just at the seventh when I began, well I'm still dizzy, but as I've said before, on a "connected" dizziness state, this almost makes me fall, on the "disconnected" phase, I don't sweat a bit. This stands true to all the other VRT exercises I'm still doing, but as strong as this one is, sometimes I use it as a "progress measure".

Be careful when you try it, because when it kicks, it really makes you dizzy, so try it on a safe place, or somewhere with any kind of support in case you feel extremely unstable after it. Obviously any neck trouble and/or injury is a not go for this exercise.

Normal is whenever u return to the "state" u where in before this junk arrived.

For each of us it may/will be different---depending on how u were before,i.e., if vision was an issue before---it will prob continue to be, etc....

I agree with you completely, and that's where I want to be, the only difficult thing now is that sometimes It's a little hard to remember if some uneasiness, like the migraine associated one, It's somethng vertigo related or not, and if I did have it before the first attack or not.

And because my perennial allergies and ocassional migraine stuff, in the past, well my "normal" state is quite a rough one by starters, but I can assure you that I trade them all for my vertigo trouble, and surely, once I get rid of the foggy unsteadiness, ocassional quick motion bursts, and the horrible visual shaky trouble, I'll be as normal as I can wish for, and I'll be completely happy. ;)

Finally regarding what you've said about a permanent deficit and the severing of the nerve, I've read it's mostly used in severely uncontrolable unilateral Meniere's, wich is an unstable lesion by the way, but I didn't knew a VN/Labs case could lead you into something as drastic as this.

8th crainal nerve has to do with your hearing right?

yeah i didn't know labs/vn could lead you into something that drastic either

8th crainal nerve has to do with your hearing right?

The 8th nerve and related structures

Vestibular portion
Cochlear portion
Nervus Intermedius
Labyrinthine artery
Internal auditory Canal

:cool:

question being.....can labs/vn lead you into something that drastic? never heard of that

Ok Stargrave

Did it that way repeatably---no nothing!

:cool:

Stargrave

Finally regarding what you've said about a permanent deficit and the severing of the nerve---the info is located here:

http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/treatment/vn_section.html

Northwestern Uive web site(sticky)

.....The usual reason for a vestibular nerve section is control of unilateral Meniere's disease, where there is some hearing (better than 80 DB PTA). On extremely rare occasions it is performed for other reasons such as recurrent vestibular neuritis. Relative contraindications are bilateral vestibular disease, old age, poor medical condition, or CNS involvement. Where there is hearing to preserve, the main surgical alternative to vestibular nerve section is transtympanic gentamicin (TTG) treatment. If hearing is not an issue then a labyrinthectomy can be done. Results of labyrinthectomy are very similar to vestibular nerve section".....

It is proposed more often then u might think/expect---well actually requested by patients---to stop the dizziness--that is driving them nuts.

:cool:

question being.....can labs/vn lead you into something that drastic? never heard of that

Rare---true---but happens----studies have found atrophy of the vestibular nerve(8th nerve) and the vestibular sensory epithelium---usually---several viruses selectively infect the labyrinth, the 8th nerve, or both---recovery results from---the restoration of peripheral labyrinthine function---which is usually incomplete in the case of VN.

Answer being---yes---ur having never heard of it---notwithstanding!

:cool:

Ok Stargrave

Did it that way repeatably---no nothing!

:cool:

So.

That means you're pretty well compensated at full 100%, and much like when I feel "disconnected" from dizziness, this won't give you any trouble because you're A-OK... a state I want to reeach soon.

So whatever this exercise stimulates, you seem to be already compensated for it.

And regarding the nerve severing stuff... well, It kind of makes sense to me, if you get me in the wrong mood, right in the middle of a dizzy crisis, and you tell me that it will stop forever by this operation, I might be he first on the line for one... Even as much as I hate surgical procedues.

But hoping that's not the case, I'll stick to VRT, take care of my allergies(where I'm considering to see a specialist), and finally if this doesn't work, check ouut on MAV for probable factors of my failure to compensate in full...

oh ok....so on recurrent vn its like that. cause that way its not a stable condition

im confused with all this info.....are you saying that a person with labs can possibly have labs forever? im not talking about meniers or recurrent vn im just talking one time labs attack viral infection.