Steverino
02-20-2001, 11:10 PM
I have been diagnosed as borderline diabetic, having an overnight (fasting) blood glucose level around 125-145. The rest of the time, my blood sugar seems to be pretty normal. After the high morning reading, If I eat and move around a little, the reading actually drops. I have read that this can be attributed to something called the Dawn effect where you hormones metabolize stored fat to raise the blood sugar level in preparation for waking up. I have also read that if you wake up at about 3 am and take a test, and it is also high then the high glucose is probably not the dawn effect. Anybody have any experience with this?
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JB
03-02-2001, 11:17 AM
I also am new at this with my blood glucose fasting levels running between 115 and 140 in the mornings. Then they drop the rest of the day to normal and if I watch closely and stay in the 3 carbs per meal routine.
BUT, if I eat any more than that in bread, pizza, rice, or potato for supper, my carbs 2 hrs. later are up way high to 180's. At bedtime they drop back quite abit and by morning are normal. Now this is something that I don't get. I, like you, have not been diagnosed as diabetic as my tests are running high normal--both fasting test and 3 mo. average. But this has me puzzled.
ARE BLOOD SUGARS SUPPOSED TO RISE AFTER EATING IN THOSE 2 HOURS AND FALL BACK AGAIN?
One of these days, I suppose I will ask the dr., but for now, any answers would be appreciated.
Thanks
BUT, if I eat any more than that in bread, pizza, rice, or potato for supper, my carbs 2 hrs. later are up way high to 180's. At bedtime they drop back quite abit and by morning are normal. Now this is something that I don't get. I, like you, have not been diagnosed as diabetic as my tests are running high normal--both fasting test and 3 mo. average. But this has me puzzled.
ARE BLOOD SUGARS SUPPOSED TO RISE AFTER EATING IN THOSE 2 HOURS AND FALL BACK AGAIN?
One of these days, I suppose I will ask the dr., but for now, any answers would be appreciated.
Thanks
arkie6
03-02-2001, 11:43 AM
JB, starches like those found in bread, rice, and potatoes get converted to glucose (bloodsugar) faster than table sugar (sucrose) or fruit sugar (fructose). That is why your bloodsugar shoots up after you eat these foods. You are probably insulin resistant. If so, your pancreas is releasing insulin into your bloodstream to bring the glucose level down, but your cells are resistant to the action of insulin so the bloodsugar level remains high. Eventually with enough insulin and time, the bloodsugar level comes down. But realize that these temporary bloodsugar spikes are causing damage. And by eating those carbohydrates you are forcing your pancreas to work overtime producing insulin. Overdo it on the carbs long enough and you go from insulin resistance to Type II diabetes. A good book on this subject is "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution". But be for warned that he recommends severly restricting carbohydrate consumption as the best means to keep bloodsugar levels under tight control.
Alan S.
Alan S.
Oldguy
03-03-2001, 08:16 AM
Hi JB,
Arkie6 has is pretty well down on the nose. You are a bit on the high side, but a reading of 170 is high normal after eating a high carb diet, and does not put you down as a diabetic. Some time ago, in one of my posts, I mentioned about the baseline HbA1c at 4-6 being the normal level of heamogloben glycation (sugar damage)the average american has on a typical american diet. It's more the permissible level and the best would of course be 0-1, but it's because of these spikes that we establish a baseline average. It's kind of like saying "everyone is a diabetic to some extent". If everyone in the U.S. was a low carber, the baseline would likely be lowered. The glucose meter is also a great dieting tool. Keeping the reading down below 110 at 2 hours after eating will generally result in fat loss to about 25%of body weight in women, and to about 15% in men. This is if your not over the 70 grams of fat intake a day. Fat has about 2 1/2 times the energy content as complex carbs. This is why it's easier to go on a low fat diet and see results. But physiologically, it's not the best. You'll live longer and be healthier by the lo carb method. God bless,,,,,,Oldguy
Arkie6 has is pretty well down on the nose. You are a bit on the high side, but a reading of 170 is high normal after eating a high carb diet, and does not put you down as a diabetic. Some time ago, in one of my posts, I mentioned about the baseline HbA1c at 4-6 being the normal level of heamogloben glycation (sugar damage)the average american has on a typical american diet. It's more the permissible level and the best would of course be 0-1, but it's because of these spikes that we establish a baseline average. It's kind of like saying "everyone is a diabetic to some extent". If everyone in the U.S. was a low carber, the baseline would likely be lowered. The glucose meter is also a great dieting tool. Keeping the reading down below 110 at 2 hours after eating will generally result in fat loss to about 25%of body weight in women, and to about 15% in men. This is if your not over the 70 grams of fat intake a day. Fat has about 2 1/2 times the energy content as complex carbs. This is why it's easier to go on a low fat diet and see results. But physiologically, it's not the best. You'll live longer and be healthier by the lo carb method. God bless,,,,,,Oldguy
chrismth
03-03-2001, 09:49 AM
Hi Old Guy:
I'm having a heck of a time limiting the amount of carbs I eat! It was easy when it was new and gimmicky-but a routine, forget it. There's nothing to eat-unless I want to be starving all the time. I'm not talking about pigging out on sugary garbage-I'm talking about a few slices of bread to make a sandwich, pizza, rice. With the few home glucose tests I have done I have seen where these foods do cause a rise in glucose levels above what is considered to be a normal response, even if just for the 2-3 hours after ingestion.
Chris S.
I'm having a heck of a time limiting the amount of carbs I eat! It was easy when it was new and gimmicky-but a routine, forget it. There's nothing to eat-unless I want to be starving all the time. I'm not talking about pigging out on sugary garbage-I'm talking about a few slices of bread to make a sandwich, pizza, rice. With the few home glucose tests I have done I have seen where these foods do cause a rise in glucose levels above what is considered to be a normal response, even if just for the 2-3 hours after ingestion.
Chris S.
Oldguy
03-03-2001, 01:28 PM
Hi Chris, I could say, "been there; done that", but it's more "Am there; do that". I love doughnuts, pizza, and fresh baked bread. My baseline glucose is 70-90. This I get by reading my fasting glucose by skipping breakfast and lunch, and reading it before supper. An insulin resistant diabetic will seldom drop to that level without the liver releasing stored glycogon in a panic reaction. My wife has gone a night and a day without eating, and her sugar will be 190 upon awakening, and 250 just before supper. When she first started using insulin, we couldn't figure out what was wrong. We found it was just that way. As for me, I have had, one time, a 190 glucose reading after pigging out on a pizza supreme. But 170-180 is normal for most everyone that does the same thing. After 4 hours, I was back to 108. I packed that stuff away as fat, where a diabetic, not taking insulin, would be dumping it in their urine at the expense of their kidneys. I'm 68years of age and overweight because I eat a sausage and egg biscuit for breakfast, and eat a good supper. It should be the other way around. But to give up everything to live isn't worth it either. The word is try,,try,,try. So old buddy, you see I've got the other paddle in the same boat as your in. I wish I had an answer. God bless,,,,Oldguy
chrismth
03-03-2001, 01:55 PM
Hi Old Guy:
Thanks for the encouragement. According to the Joslin website, or maybe another one, a truly "normal" response would be a blood glucose less than 150 1/2 hour after ingestion and going down quickly after that. Have you ever had a Hemoglobin A1C done? I read somewhere that a value over 6 (i.e. 6.3, not one that is really bad) shows some high levels. Apparently this is not true diabetes, but "impaired" tolerance but can lead to diabetes or may never. I guess it can cause similar complications. I also read that a glucose level of 160 usually is accompanied by glucose spillage in the urine. I haven't tested that yet. I don't think I have diabetes, at least not yet, but looking for an explanation for the hypertension and angina. Also, maybe the better way to control lipids would be a low dose diabetes drug rather than lipitor. Who knows, maybe it would control the hypertension as well, by regulating the insulin sensitivity. On the other hand, it might cause hypoglycemia which I guess is worse.
Thanks again,
Chris S.
Thanks for the encouragement. According to the Joslin website, or maybe another one, a truly "normal" response would be a blood glucose less than 150 1/2 hour after ingestion and going down quickly after that. Have you ever had a Hemoglobin A1C done? I read somewhere that a value over 6 (i.e. 6.3, not one that is really bad) shows some high levels. Apparently this is not true diabetes, but "impaired" tolerance but can lead to diabetes or may never. I guess it can cause similar complications. I also read that a glucose level of 160 usually is accompanied by glucose spillage in the urine. I haven't tested that yet. I don't think I have diabetes, at least not yet, but looking for an explanation for the hypertension and angina. Also, maybe the better way to control lipids would be a low dose diabetes drug rather than lipitor. Who knows, maybe it would control the hypertension as well, by regulating the insulin sensitivity. On the other hand, it might cause hypoglycemia which I guess is worse.
Thanks again,
Chris S.
arkie6
03-03-2001, 03:11 PM
Chris, sounds like Metabolic "Syndrome X" to me. Syndrome X is a cluster of symptoms that includes insulin resistance and one or more of the following: high cholesterol, high bloodpressure, heart disease, or diabetes. For more info, just do an internet search with any search engine (such as www.google.com (http://www.google.com) )for words like insulin resistance and/or Syndrome X.
Alan S.
Alan S.
JB
03-04-2001, 03:37 PM
What would be the difference between insulin resistant and diabetes? Do the blood glucose monitor readings tell that difference and if so, how so?
And what would be the normal level in the reading 2 hrs. after the pizza intake?
If the reading returns to normal by morning, is that normal from diabetes or normal from insulin resistance or just plain normal?
I guess you would say that I have alot of questions in this posting. Any answers would be so much appreciated.
So far, what I am doing is limited each meal to 3 carbs, walking 2 mi. 4-5 days a week, and testing blood glucose at various times during the day. Always within normal range or below 126 IF the 3 carb plan is followed. Have lost 12 lbs. doing this, but do I need to do more?
Thanks for all of your help.
And what would be the normal level in the reading 2 hrs. after the pizza intake?
If the reading returns to normal by morning, is that normal from diabetes or normal from insulin resistance or just plain normal?
I guess you would say that I have alot of questions in this posting. Any answers would be so much appreciated.
So far, what I am doing is limited each meal to 3 carbs, walking 2 mi. 4-5 days a week, and testing blood glucose at various times during the day. Always within normal range or below 126 IF the 3 carb plan is followed. Have lost 12 lbs. doing this, but do I need to do more?
Thanks for all of your help.
JB
03-04-2001, 08:19 PM
Do I understand this insulin resistance thing correctly here? Is it a forerunner of Type II diabetes if not taken care of by diet, exercise, etc. and it may actually never lead to Diabetes? I guess I had always thought that above normal blood sugar levels were automatically diabetes and it was that simple. This is something new to me and I believe that if I am correct from your letters, that insulin resistance is treated the same way as Diabetes Type II with the low carb diet, exercise thing.
If any of the above is incorrect, please advise. I have learned so much already from all of you people out there. Thanks
If any of the above is incorrect, please advise. I have learned so much already from all of you people out there. Thanks
chrismth
03-04-2001, 09:19 PM
Hi JB
It is my understanding that people with diabetes type II are insulin resistant but you can be insulin resistant without actually having diabetes. I guess its a matter of how insulin resistant you are. The glucose meter readings are measurements of whole blood glucose, regardless of what is causing it to be high or low.
According to the info I have, 2 hours after eating anything should not show a plasma glucose reading higher than 140 and preferably lower. I have read that plasma levels are 12-15% higher than whole blood (fingerstick glucose meter readings)
I am referring to the normal glucose response. I have been told that diabetics are given preferred ranges according to their treatment plan.
In the case of normal fasting plasma glucose levels and plasma levels 140-199 at 2 hours a person is considered to have "impaired glucose tolerance" It can lead to diabetes. Some experts are trying to lower the cut off to 180.
Can you give me an example of some of your 3 carb meals?
Chris S.
It is my understanding that people with diabetes type II are insulin resistant but you can be insulin resistant without actually having diabetes. I guess its a matter of how insulin resistant you are. The glucose meter readings are measurements of whole blood glucose, regardless of what is causing it to be high or low.
According to the info I have, 2 hours after eating anything should not show a plasma glucose reading higher than 140 and preferably lower. I have read that plasma levels are 12-15% higher than whole blood (fingerstick glucose meter readings)
I am referring to the normal glucose response. I have been told that diabetics are given preferred ranges according to their treatment plan.
In the case of normal fasting plasma glucose levels and plasma levels 140-199 at 2 hours a person is considered to have "impaired glucose tolerance" It can lead to diabetes. Some experts are trying to lower the cut off to 180.
Can you give me an example of some of your 3 carb meals?
Chris S.
JB
03-05-2001, 11:12 AM
Hi chrismuth
Here's my ideal diet for each day and I do follow this religiously for breakfast and lunch with nearly the same foods each day:
6-8 oz. glass of V-8
1-1/2 serving Rice Krispies(I also have wheat intolerance which eliminates all other cereals or most other things)
1 or 2 small homemade oatmeal choc chip cookies with coffee(occassional treat)
decaf coffee
Lunch:
1 protein-i.e. sml can of albacore tuna packed in water with a trace of mayo or cold chicken, turkey, etc.
2 Quaker corn cakes with a trace of butter or oleo and warmed in Microwave for 1 min.
1 small apple
1 glass skim milk
Dinner:
1 protein serving of meat
1 veggie serving (not corn) or salad
1 serving (2 or 3) little new red potatoes which have very little starch.
Substitutes may be made for any of the above as long as the total carb intake per meal does not exceed 45 grams.
So far, so good--if I have less carbs at dinner, I may have 1/2 bag of MW popcorn later.
I also walk 2 mi. 4 days a week and have for 20 years and drink 8 glasses of water a day.
BUT WHEN I CHEAT AND EVERYONE DOES, it is reflected in my blood sugar test at bedtime, but usually it is quite abit down or normal in the morning fasting test.
I don't understand much else about this, but I know one thing--the fun of eating has certainly dropped abit because some of my favorite foods are the very ones not to eat.
Hopefully, this will work--have lost 12 lbs. doing this.
Here's my ideal diet for each day and I do follow this religiously for breakfast and lunch with nearly the same foods each day:
6-8 oz. glass of V-8
1-1/2 serving Rice Krispies(I also have wheat intolerance which eliminates all other cereals or most other things)
1 or 2 small homemade oatmeal choc chip cookies with coffee(occassional treat)
decaf coffee
Lunch:
1 protein-i.e. sml can of albacore tuna packed in water with a trace of mayo or cold chicken, turkey, etc.
2 Quaker corn cakes with a trace of butter or oleo and warmed in Microwave for 1 min.
1 small apple
1 glass skim milk
Dinner:
1 protein serving of meat
1 veggie serving (not corn) or salad
1 serving (2 or 3) little new red potatoes which have very little starch.
Substitutes may be made for any of the above as long as the total carb intake per meal does not exceed 45 grams.
So far, so good--if I have less carbs at dinner, I may have 1/2 bag of MW popcorn later.
I also walk 2 mi. 4 days a week and have for 20 years and drink 8 glasses of water a day.
BUT WHEN I CHEAT AND EVERYONE DOES, it is reflected in my blood sugar test at bedtime, but usually it is quite abit down or normal in the morning fasting test.
I don't understand much else about this, but I know one thing--the fun of eating has certainly dropped abit because some of my favorite foods are the very ones not to eat.
Hopefully, this will work--have lost 12 lbs. doing this.
chrismth
03-05-2001, 12:42 PM
Hi JB:
Thanks for your response. I guess I misunderstood you to mean that you ate meals with 3 grams of carbs in them. I agree with you, raisin anything means high glucose readings and bagels as well. A bagel and coffee gave me a reading of 166 (186) 1 1/2 hrs later. I have been told a bagel has 60 gms of carb, then add the raisins in it.
It was when my triglycerides kept increasing despite a low fat diet that I started looking at low carb eating and like you, started losing weight. In a few weeks my trigs went from 400 to 167. I had already only been eating healthy carbs but I guess too much of them. It's hard because it seems like that's all I want to eat. I'm sick of tuna and salad veggies.
Chris
Thanks for your response. I guess I misunderstood you to mean that you ate meals with 3 grams of carbs in them. I agree with you, raisin anything means high glucose readings and bagels as well. A bagel and coffee gave me a reading of 166 (186) 1 1/2 hrs later. I have been told a bagel has 60 gms of carb, then add the raisins in it.
It was when my triglycerides kept increasing despite a low fat diet that I started looking at low carb eating and like you, started losing weight. In a few weeks my trigs went from 400 to 167. I had already only been eating healthy carbs but I guess too much of them. It's hard because it seems like that's all I want to eat. I'm sick of tuna and salad veggies.
Chris
JB
03-06-2001, 04:37 PM
Chris-I have also begun to find some other foods that can work as subs for the basic things that I eat.
Yogurt low or non fat sweetened with Apastame instead of sugar. It comes with carbs at 15-18 grams. Some of the flavors are really good like Key Lime Pie, etc. Then I also get the sugar free fudge bars at 9 grams each. Those also help satisfy the craving for something sweet. Sometimes 2 squares of graham cracker with a little butter or oleo on. The problem is all of those really, really good foods that we used to eat like cake desserts, chocolate candy (my favorite treat), etc. are pretty much off limits now. I also read that peanuts are also low in carb grams, but they have a higher fat gram content, but in a pinch for a snack, I think better than a candy bar or something. I also have been getting the bite size pieces of some candy and eat just one at mid-meal sometimes. Anything like that makes me think for a short minute that I am not being denying anything, but I think I have finally reached the conclusion that denial is the best thing to save my health.
If anyone else comes up with any other good foods with low carbs, please let us know about them. Thanks.
Yogurt low or non fat sweetened with Apastame instead of sugar. It comes with carbs at 15-18 grams. Some of the flavors are really good like Key Lime Pie, etc. Then I also get the sugar free fudge bars at 9 grams each. Those also help satisfy the craving for something sweet. Sometimes 2 squares of graham cracker with a little butter or oleo on. The problem is all of those really, really good foods that we used to eat like cake desserts, chocolate candy (my favorite treat), etc. are pretty much off limits now. I also read that peanuts are also low in carb grams, but they have a higher fat gram content, but in a pinch for a snack, I think better than a candy bar or something. I also have been getting the bite size pieces of some candy and eat just one at mid-meal sometimes. Anything like that makes me think for a short minute that I am not being denying anything, but I think I have finally reached the conclusion that denial is the best thing to save my health.
If anyone else comes up with any other good foods with low carbs, please let us know about them. Thanks.
chrismth
03-06-2001, 06:29 PM
Hi!
I've been doing some experimenting on my reponse to certain foods. I already posted about bagels and raisin bran :<( Graham crackers and peanut butter gave me a reading
of 120 (whole blood) 1 hour later which is great. Old fashioned oatmeal with skim meal did the same thing. A large pear gave me a reading of 118 at 1 hour.
I read somewhere, maybe in another category on this forum, that you subtract the fiber from the carbs, to get net carbs?
CHris
I've been doing some experimenting on my reponse to certain foods. I already posted about bagels and raisin bran :<( Graham crackers and peanut butter gave me a reading
of 120 (whole blood) 1 hour later which is great. Old fashioned oatmeal with skim meal did the same thing. A large pear gave me a reading of 118 at 1 hour.
I read somewhere, maybe in another category on this forum, that you subtract the fiber from the carbs, to get net carbs?
CHris
arkie6
03-06-2001, 06:45 PM
Yes, fiber doesn't need to be counted as carbohydrates since it is non-digestible and has nil effect on insulin and bloodsugar. Regarding a previous post on rice krispies and corn flakes. These processed grains will more than likely raise your bloodsugar more than if you were eating straight table sugar. For more info on this just do an internet search for "Glycemic Index". Regarding butter vs. olea (margarine). You are much better off health wise to use butter over oleo. Olea Margarine is synthetic saturated fat (hydrogenated vegetable oils) that is loaded with trans fatty acids (bad juju).
Alan
Alan