You've got to read this (it's long though). This link discusses how insulin affects your body in plain English.
http://www.dfhi.com/interviews/rosedale.html

Alan

Hi Alan:

This was interesting. Some of it I didn't agree with him. I can't argue the biochemistry, but I wonder about some of the other stuff. And wondering about that, makes me wonder abotu some of the biochemistry!

For example, where is insulin "legal?" Where can you go and buy it off the counter like candy? True, some athletes might be using it
but that doesn't mean it is openly available.

I found the part about his criticism of doctors who prescribe decongestants inflammatory. Every doctor I have been to would be glad to let your nose run. I can't tell you how often I've heard "you need the mucous to clean it out and you don't want to stop the cough because that's your body's protection" Why do they prescribe drugs that may not be necessary? Because often the patient demands it! Do something to make me feel better! Now the doctor has to weigh how harmful treatment vs. nontreatment would be.
I'm not saying that they are always justified in what they prescribe (i.e. the statins too quickly or even at all) but its also unfair to go to the opposite extreme and blame them completely. When this author includes something like the decongestion criticism, it turns me off to the other stuff, which might be a valid argument. Also, the answer to the question "what does insulin do" was not technically wrong, although it may not be complete enough. Insulin *does* lower blood sugar levels, but the complete answer would be "in order to provide energy to the cells of the body for present and future use". You have to agree that to then launch into a biochemistry lesson on how it does that would be lost on most patients.

It appears that mainstream medicine has accepted the fact that high carboyhdrate, low fat diets are not the answer for everyone, at least in type II diabetics. The book I have that states that is put out by the American Diabetes Association.

I have to read his article more carefully. I found one part especially interesting-the effect of insulin on the heart and more heart attacks are caused by high insulin levels than high fat levels. I find that if I eat a very high carbohydrate food (i.e.sugar cookies, something I don't eat anymore, by the way)I get cardiac symptoms. I have already had a cath and no coronary artery disease is present, but the problem can be at the small vessel level which does not show up on a cath. This apparently can happen when insulin resistance is present. This was a topic of discussion on a cardiac forum not too long ago. Some people felt they had more PVC's after eating carbohydrates. The doctor did not buy it, although he did agree that high carbohydrate diets can cause an increase in triglycerides, especially in women.

Aren't you the one who recommends Dr. Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solutions" I found his explanation on the insulin response (normal vs. abnormal) extremely easy to understand. I did find his carbo restrictions quite severe but I guess in his case it works, as he is still around. It is an excellent book and except for maybe the carb issue, very few could criticize it. Do you know how he is viewed by mainstream medicine?

Chris

For example, where is insulin "legal?" Where can you go and buy it off the counter like candy? True, some athletes might be using it
but that doesn't mean it is openly available.
I live in Iowa and I buy my insulin like candy. In Iowa you don't need a prescription for insulin or syringes.

-Mark

[This message has been edited by PlaXibo (edited 03-28-2001).]

Originally posted by chrismth:
Aren't you the one who recommends Dr. Bernstein's book "Diabetes Solutions" I found his explanation on the insulin response (normal vs. abnormal) extremely easy to understand. I did find his carbo restrictions quite severe but I guess in his case it works, as he is still around. It is an excellent book and except for maybe the carb issue, very few could criticize it. Do you know how he is viewed by mainstream medicine?

That be me. I don't know how Dr. Bernstein is viewed by the mainstream. I never hear his name mentioned. That reminds me that I loaned my book to a friend at work a few months ago. I need to see where he is with it.

Alan

Hi Mark:

Is that really true? You can buy insulin and syringes without a prescription? That is almost unbelievable.

Is this true in any other states?

Chris

Hi Chris, It's the same in South Carolina. The only insulin you need a scrip for is Lispro. You can get the needles by signing for them and giving proper I.D. However, the drugs, such as glucotrol or glucophage require scrips.
___As for the article, It's the best I've read so far, and the only thing I disagree with is the second hand carbs from grain fed beef. I do believe that the great amounts of hormones given beef cattle is troublesome. The indians had the very best cattle...Buffalo. Good taste, just a bit dry, and healthy, although I believe that the raisers will dope them too.
___I was surprised that he mentioned the DOG tests. Dogs do not get atherosclerosis, nor do chickens. But administer exogenous insulin to them and they do. Great article, and very accurate in my view. This should be posted on the high cholesterol boards also...They're related. God bless,,,Oldguy

Just wanted to bring this topic back up on top for any newbies that might have missed it. Read the article in the first post if you haven't already.

By far the most important thing you can do to control your bloodsugar and insulin levels is to control the amount of carbohydrates that you are consuming. And since things made with sugars and grains are so high in carbohydrate, these are best eliminated or at least severly restricted if you are diabetic or insulin resistant. Actually, most all people would benefit from reduced consumption of non-fiberous carbohydrates.

Alan

For the question about buying insulin w/out a prescription, most pharmacies will sell insulin without an RX (especially the big chains) My husband has done this in PA, MD, VA and SC. (he's on the road alot and is prone to losing or forgetting his.) I'm sure the pharmacies understand that without it he'd die!!! It's not "off the shelf, though, you have to ask the pharmacist.

Hi Beth:

Yes, several people have told me that you can buy insulin without a prescription in their states. That is almost unbelievable. It's true, without it a person could die, and with it, someone who didn't know what they were doing, could also die. I would hope the pharmacist would ask questions and assess the person asking for it but I guess if its legal, he can't deny it to him/her.

Chris S.

Hi Alan:

How's this for a simple explanation. I can see one will be necessary soon in the group I was in Sunday. One person commented that he noticed I was losing weight. (just a few pounds, but he hadn't seen me in awhile) I was thrilled, not because I really need to lose weight, but because it proves that my efforts to reduce carbs and food in general must be paying off. So he says that he ought to take lessons and I told him I knew how, so I am sure he is going to ask for an explanation soon. Most people (unless they have contact with a diabetic or are biochemists) have no idea how all this works.
And they have gotten very negative ideas from the criticism of low carb diets. As soon as they hear "restrict carbohydrates" they think "unhealthy, dangerous".

A person eats carbohydrates, the most abundant source of glucose ("sugar") which your body needs to work. The glucose enters the bloodstream through digestion. The pancreas puts out insulin to get the glucose in the blood where it needs to be in the cells so they can do their job. If the pancreas can't produce enough insulin, the blood glucose rises and you get type I diabetes. (caused by an assault by your immune system on your pancreas)

In the normal person, the pancreas puts out enough insulin to deal with all the glucose that comes from these carbohydrates. If you eat a lot of carbs, (and in some people, this might be what we would call "normal" amounts) it puts out more insulin to deal with the glucose that results from them. In some people (probably genetically susceptible, although this must be pretty loose since type II diabetes is almost epidemic) the body's cells become resistant to their insulin, so the pancreas puts out even more, resulting in very high levels of insulin. This is what causes problems like hypertension and elevated lipids. In some people, eventually the body will not be able to keep up with this demand by not being able to produce enough insulin or they become very insulin resistant, and the person's blood glucose rises and that is type II diabetes. Later on, elevated blood glucose levels will cause other problems. Most people are familiar with them, but I don't think most people link elevated blood sugar with hypertension and lipids. I realize this is a very simple explanation.

By the way, one of the people in this group is a type II diabetic whose glucose levels are controlled so-so through oral meds. He told me his doctors are after him to exercise, but....Well, I launched into my experience with exercise and it was so funny, he stopped listening to me! It was obvious, I could tell by the look on his face that he was not hearing a thing I was saying.

Chris S.

Chris S,

Here is how I describe insulin resistance and diabetes:

First off, Type I diabetes (Insulin Dependant) is for the most part totally different that Type II. And fortunately it is much less common than Type II, like 10% Type I vs. 90% Type II. In Type I, the beta cells in the pancreas have been damaged or destroyed so that little to no insulin is produced. This usually shows up early in life (<20 years or so old).

Type II develops from insulin resistance in my opinion. There are other opinions, but this is what I believe is happening. Up to 75% of the population has a tendency for insulin resistance based on experimental measurements of insulin output for a given glucose load.

As most people do today, we consume way too many carbohydrates that are easily broken down in the digestive system into simple sugars (some come in as sugars and others like starches are easily broken down into sugar in the stomach). These sugars then pass through the intestines as glucose into the bloodstream. Since the body desires bloodsugar levels to be tightly regulated (approx 70-110), the increasing bloodsugar triggers the pancreas to release insulin.

The hormone insulin acts on the body's cell receptors. Basically it opens the door to get the glucose from the bloodstream into the cell (muscle cell, fat cell, etc.). Some of the carbohydrate we eat can be stored as glycogen in the muscles and liver for quick energy release. This doesn't hold much though, so once this is full, all glucose goes either to fuel the muscle cells or gets stored in the fat cells. Since most people eat more carbohydrate than they need at any given time for energy use, some will get stored as fat. The problem with excess consumption of carbohydrate is not just fat storage, but the flood of insulin required to move the glucose out of the bloodstream also begins to affect the cells receptors. This constant bombardement of insulin tends to make the cells "down regulate" or become resistant to the action of insulin so that it takes more and more insulin to turn the cells on. It's kinda like that analogy where you walk into a smelly room and you really notice it but eventually the smell goes away (but it doesn't really go away, it's just that you have become desensitized to it, i.e. down regulate). If you leave the room for some time and then come back, it stinks again (in the absense of the smell, your olfactory cells were re-sensitized to the odor, i.e. up regulated)

The first cells that typically become resistant are the muscle cells, with the fat cells being more receptive, hence increased likelihood that what you eat will get stored as fat as you get older. Ever seen young skinny teens eat like a horse and then start to pack on the pounds in their late 20's and 30's? That's why. And your energy levels also drop off because the muscle cells aren't getting the glucose for fuel and to top it off, high insulin levels block fat metabolism (the hormone glucagon aids in fat metabolism, but it is in short supply when insulin is high). So your muscles are deprived of both glucose and fat for fuel and you tire more easily than when you were younger. Been there?

Eventually, even the fat cells become resistant to the constant flood of insulin and at some point the pancreas is producing all of the insulin that it can and yet it is not enough to open up the cells gates to let the glucose in. At this point, bloodsugars begin to rise and take longer and longer to come back down (may not come down at all if you continue eating excess carbohydrates). Now you have Type II diabetes.

That's my explanation for insulin resistance and diabetes as I understand it in simple terms.

Alan

Hi Alan:

Sounds good, I was trying to keep it really, really simple, however I totally forgot about the connection to storing fat and that is why I'd be explaining it this person in the first place, DUH.

After reading Bernstein's book, I think there might be such a thing as partial type I. In some people, the immune system attacks the pancreas but it is not a complete attack. Bernstein thinks the pancreas may lose their ability to store insulin which would account for the defective phase I response. It is stored insulin that is released immediately to deal with the glucose that results from quickly assimilated carbs, phase II insulin has to be manufactured on demand. Its possible this slow assault on the pancreas is responsible for Type I's diagnosed later in life. I read a book written by two women, forget their names, who think the "thin type II's" may really be type I's who never reached the final stage. I guess when the diagnosis is questionable, such as a thin person with type II diabetes (or what they think is type II) they can do antibody tests. GAD64? Something like that. I find this very interesting because over the years I have had blood tests which point towards a "chronic immune process" (that's what is on the lab report) I already have strongly positive thyroid antibodies, so that may be it, or else its something else going on. When a person has one autoimmune disease, they are at higher risk for another. The authors of this book say that the thin type II's are more likely to need insulin to control their glucose levels than the obese type II's. I'm sure that there is a lot not known and there are always going to be people who fall between the categories.

That was a great analogy with the smelly room! I think anyone could understand that.

Chris

Hi,
I read the whole thing. It was very interesting to me. Being a type 1, I find that I am always looking for answers, and new hope for a cure. I want to tell you my "little" story. After having my last child in '94, I could not get the weight off. I remember saying to my husband that it seemed like my metabolism was screwed up. I have suffered menstrual problems from the time I started-13. In '98 the problem became severe, I had 27 (benign) tumors in and on my ovaries. I had endometriosis, an inflamed uterus and it was also prolapsed. I actually had to "put it back" on two occasions. I had a complete abdominal hysterectomy in July of 98. I felt good after that, well after the pain wore off. Then, I began blowing veins in my hands, they were swelling. I called my doctor and he gave me Maxzide, a diuretic. A STRONG diurectic. Within a couple of days, I couldn't stand the taste of my daily soda or cigarettes. I craved water most of all. At work I stood at the water cooler most of the day. I pee'd all night, and sweated so much in bed that I thought I had had an accident. My vision in my right eye was going fast. I was losing weight very quickly. My heart was racing--133. I went to see my ob/gyn for my 6 wk check up and told him all of this. He said I look great. I lost 30 lbs in two wks. And go get my vision checked, he would see me in a year. Two days later I was in the urgent care with double lung pneumonia and "full blown diabetes". I believe the Maxzide brought this disease out. If you have some insight for me regarding this, please let me know. I still have anger towards this doctor for not realizing what had happened, since he just dismissed me. And I am left with the results. Thank you. Renee'

Your Dr. does sound dense, but I think this is a problem in medicine overall. Lots of doctors do not listen to women. Many women complain that their medical problems are ignored or made to seem trivial or not really real. The thing to do is be polite but direct and specific. I want you to do such and such and find out what the problem is. You just have to be aggressive these days. Doctors are busy and have their own problems and you have to get their attention. If this doesn't work, you need to get another doctor. I looked up Maxzide aka Dyazide and one of the side effects is diabetes and it causes elevated blood sugar in diabetics. It should not be used if you have kidney or liver trouble. It may not have caused your condition, but it could have aggravated it.

Hi!

I agree and believe that doctors are not going to look for "research projects" to get into. If you don't fall right into what is medically accepted as "abnormal" most doctors are not going to go looking. I'm speaking mainly about impaired tolerance, not this situation with Renee. I have read that these days with managed care and everything it involves, a doctor is really just a medical consultant you hire. I actually read in a magazine article that most doctors don't screen routinely for diabetes because it is not that common, so it is up to the patient to suggest it. It seems you really have to be careful though when you direct your own medical care or you risk stepping on the doctors toes and that doesn't get you anywhere.

Chris

Yes, you have to avoid being hostile or accusing and give the dr. respect for his position. You can ask questions and make requests. A correction to the Dyazide info: It should be used with caution in cases of kidney or liver problems. This thread has gotten OT.

Hi:

What is OT? :< )

I just wanted to explain to anyone who has not been following these posts that by "research project" I mean what I've been doing on myself concerning foods and the glucose levels they give. Just in case it sounded sarcastic :< )

Chris S

off topic

Just wanted to bump this old discussion back to the top.

Aah, such a great thread. Lots of good accurate information in easy to understand language. Too bad the ADA doesn't like Dr. Bernstein because his story could save some pain and suffering. Here's a quick little story for you: I was experimenting and testing different insulins and how they worked for me. Some of my experiments were from Dr. Bernstein's book Diabetes Solution. I picked up the wrong insulin and injected myself with 35 units of Humulin U. I had no idea what this would do. I called information and got Dr. Bernstein's telephone number, I called him and he answered his phone. I was so shocked I wasn't sure I heard him right. Finally he said, is there something I can help you with? I told him what I had done and asked for his advice on what I should do. He gave me instructions and then said, I'm not in the habit of giving out advice on the phone to people I have never met, you should call your diabetologist.....and you might want to separate your insulin so you don't make that mistake again. I have not made that mistake again.

Mickey

It appears that the original link for this old thread on insulin is no longer functioning. If interested, you can likley find other links to it by doing a google search for the Ron Rosedale interview on insulin and its metabolic effects. I did a quick search and found a link to the interview at the mercola.com site.

Here is part 1 of 4 of the interview >>> http://www.mercola.com/2001/jul/14/insulin.htm#

Hi Arkie,
I have to say Dr. Rosedale is right on. I'm one that believes that one must consume some carbs, but only the high fiber carbs. To tell you the truth, 20% is the high side. The proper term for programmed cell death is apoptosis, something very necessary for avoiding cancer. I have a good doctor friend who is a juvinile diabetic and uses NO exogenous insulin. He eats no carbs at all. He is quite skinny but very healthy. Insulin has been referred to as the aging hormone, and rightfully so. I'm surprised at how I almost totally agree with this doc. Unfortunately, the mainstream medical doctors call doctors like him, "Mavericks", no matter what success rate they have. Keep it up Arkie, (I wish I wasn't so busy)...(I'm supposed to be retired).

God bless you all, Oldguy

Old Guy,

What's this about insulin being referred to as the ageing hormone? I don't think I have heard this before, can you expain in more detail?

Mickey

Hi Mickey,
The term “aging hormone” is used in the maverick medical circles because the damages due to chronic high blood insulin levels are similar to the damages encountered in senesence. In the study of a large group of centigenarians, only one commonality was found...low blood insulin levels. The oldest was a skinny Frenchman at 122 years of age. He had smoked all of his life and was poor. His poverty and smoking habit likely restricted his availability to rich foods. His diet was basically meat and vegetables when he could get them.
Tests with animals, mainly rats and monkeys, found that diet restriction extended normal lifetime by as much as 30%.
With age, insulin-like growth factor IGF1 decreases in the blood serum; hence down goes growth hormone (GH). (Falling levels of GH are also involved in ageing). The IGF1 hormone is molecularly similar to insulin, consequently its cellular receptors are taken up by insulin at elevated levels. This causes a further fall in GH.
Insulin migrates intracellularly, which includes passing thru the artery endothelium. It then causes smooth muscle cell (SMC) proliferation and an increase in collagen. The walls of the arteries increase in thickness and become stiffer, and the arterial lumen gets smaller. Up goes BP and chances for claudication.
Insulin is like many drugs; a necessary poison. It’s best to keep its levels low. If you do like carbs, add unflavored flax seed (like metamucil) to your diet. Contrary to what you may think, It won’t make you explode and it helps limit carb pickup.. It’s fiber. God bless, Oldguy

Hello there Oldguy. And thanks for the reply to my question. Now I have another one.....How do you know what the insulin level is in your blood? I have been focused on keeping my blood sugar low by taking the correct dosage of insulin while following a strict low carb diet. I don't believe I have ever heard anything about the importance of the amount of insulin in the blood. If I have heard or read it, it went right over my head.

I take the amount of insulin that I have determined will take care of the carbs that I will eat at a given meal. My sugar will spike a couple of hours after a meal, but usually will not go beyond 120 and many times hover around 110. I am on an intensive insulin regimen and was feeling pretty good about my control until I read this about the insulin level in your blood.

Please tell me more.

Mickey

*The loss of diabetic control, the intensification of hypoglycemia, the occurrence of presumed insulin reactions (including convulsions) that proved to be aspartame (NUTRASWEET, EQUAL) reactions, and the precipitation, aggravation or simulation of diabetic complications (especially impaired vision and neuropathy) while using these products.

*Dramatic improvement of such features after avoiding aspartame, AND the prompt predictable recurrent of these problems when the patient resumed aspartame products, knowlingly or inadvertently. many instances of severe complications in patients with diabetes and hypoglycemia caused by the use of aspartame products:
A 21 year-old insulin-dependent teacher suffered more frequent insulin reactions both at school and at home, while drinking many aspartame colas daily. He reported: When we cut down on aspartame, I stopped having so many reactions. A diabetic man suffered severe changes in vision when he was drinking four liters of aspartame soft drinks daily. An opthalmologist assured him that there was no detectable diabetic retinopathy. The patient then chanced to read an article about aspartame-related eye problems. He promptly improved after avoiding these beverages, an unlikely event if the problem was primarily a diabetic retinopathy.

A 46 year-old man with insulin-dependent diabetes had been in good control for three decades until he began using several aspartame sodas and packets of tabletop sweetener daily. He summarized his experience in these terms: My diabetes went haywire, and I had terrible insulin reactions. His diabetes was fully controlled within one week after abstaining from aspartame products.

A 12 year-old boy with known diabetes required multiple hospitalizations for diabetic coma while consuming considerable aspartame products. Physicians at a university hospital had difficulty in stabilizing his insulin requirements while he used them.

I have traveled quite a bit over the last 15 years (nationwide) and have never had a problem buying insulin without a prescription. The only difference between insulin and aspirin is...you have to ask for insulin. That's it.

....How do you know what the insulin level is in your blood?

Mickey,

You can have a fasting insulin level blood test done. I read somewhere that the normal level is 5-25, if I remember correctly. But levels as high as 90+ are often seen. This would suggest severe insulin resistance. And the challenge would be to reduce it through cutting back on carbs and exercise.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mickey, I’m sorry I’m so slow in giving a response, but it seems I have no time left due to the holidays and whatever else seems to interfere. The older one gets, the slower one is in doing the things he/she has to do.

The body’s insulin level is kind of a fuzzy number that can be affected by a several conditions. The fasting norm is 5 to 25uU/ml (micro units per milliliter) in conventional terms, or 36-179pM/l (picomoles per liter) in SI (standard international) terms. The human body is quite conservative with serum insulin, but some factors enter into its breakdown. Diabetics develop antibodies to exogenous insulin because the insulin is the product of genetically altered E-coli bacteria and is not an exact match of human insulin. In fact, insulin lispro has two amino acids purposely reversed in order to accelerate its action. So the body makes antibodies to destroy the invader. There is a blood test to determine insulin antibodies. Then, in what is called juvenile diabetes, the body’s immune system develops auto-antibodies that destroy both the insulin and the beta cells in the pancreas. There is no commercial lab test for these. The tests are done in university studies by radio-tagging the auto-antibodies. Another factor that enters the picture is the cell receptors for insulin. As each receptor is occupied, the remaining receptors become somewhat desensitized. This also occurs as the concentration of blood insulin rises so as more and more units of insulin are injected, they become less and less effective. Kind of a defeating system. Chromium and vanadium work to sensitize these receptors: exactly how is unclear. But to make sure that the resistance is not caused by deficiencies in diet, one must be sure to have adequate zinc and calcium intake. The receptor sites have been found to be zinc metalloprotiens, and calcium is required in their signaling. Most people in the modern world are short of zinc.

If one has a high level of blood insulin in order to maintain a proper blood glucose level, it could indicate insulin resistance. But it could also indicate that the liver is slow in converting the glucose to fatty acids for storage in the fat cells. This may involve insulin resistance, or a problem in the liver. One has to remember, insulin admits glucose into muscle cells. It also signals the liver to convert glucose to lipids for storage. The fat cells are not activated by insulin to pick up glucose.

I kind of ran off on this subject, but it was to emphasize that the numbers are not exact. My wife is a late onset juvenile diabetic who never responded to chromium, Actos, Avandia, etc. Her auto-antibodies destroy her insulin. A slow insulin is destroyed as it is released into her bloodstream and does little to no control. It also causes severe rejection reactions such as water retention, weakness, kidney pain, and whatever rejection entails. She takes a 20-unit shot of lispro or insulin R after lunch, and 25 to 30 units of the same after supper. Such a large shot of these insulins would likely kill a normo-diabetic.

It boils down to this: follow the glycemic index (do a Google) to keep your carbs low. Look for a good endo that will discuss everything with you. Most of them are too arrogant. As soon as I get time, I want to post about the wonder drug in my wife’s med regimen. It’s called BHT. If it was not for this, I would definitely be a widower. Watch for it.... God bless, Oldguy

in what is called juvenile diabetes, the body’s immune system develops auto-antibodies that destroy both the insulin and the beta cells in the pancreas.

Interesting post. Is it possible that antibodies could be destroying Novorapid but Lantus is left unscathed? The reason I ask this is that I am enjoying stable and reliable basal action from 11 units of Lantus daily. But sometimes I have to inject enormous amounts of Novorapid. It normally happens in the morning. And changing the timeing of the Lantus shot doesn't make any difference.

My TDD is normally about 35 units and I weigh 71kg, although sometimes I have to use an extra 5 to 10 units of Novorapid. I consume only 60-80 grams of carbs a day. So it doesn't look like I am insulin resistant. But this morning, for example, I injected 15 units of Novorapid before a 15 carb breakfast. And my BSL still went up to 13.7. It was only after I injected another 5 units a few hours later that my BSL eventually came down.

That is a large amount of insulin by any standards. But in relation to my normal TDD, it is huge. The Dr has not been very helpful on this. And I am looking for possible reasons for this anomaly....

Cheers,

Mark