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View Full Version : PT after one level fusion - two month postop - Questions?


 

 

 
acdfouch
04-25-2006, 11:02 PM
Thought I would pull this out of my thread for some more comments.

Dennis and mb100 have given me some great thoughts and ideas to take back to my PT and for me to maul over and I'm looking for some more.

Howdy all.

I've been progressing much better for those that have been following my thread.

I have just accepted that I am not one of those people that just wake up better and just trying to make the best of things.

Now, I have been doing PT for two weeks.

I had a ACDF(P) on Feb 27th. C5/6. Donor bone.

Now here's my PT (in order too) :

Moist heat 15 min

Rowing machine 5 min level 2

All strenghting exercises 2 sets 15 reps
Chest press 12.5 pounds
Pullback 12.5 pounds
Pulldown 12.5 pounds

Shoulder shrug 2 pounds
Bicep curl 3 pounds
Hands out to side - palms up - bring to shoulder level - 2 pounds
Arms down to side - bring them up to shoulder level while at side - 2 pounds
Grab pole - up to shoulder level with elbows as high as possible

Stretches
All stretches 15 sec hold 2 times

Look left
Look right
Head turned to shoulder right
Head turned to shoulder left
Same as above but hold wrist and turn to opposite side while pulling wrist
... And here the one I have not done since the first week
Look up
Look down

Overall...

Comments? Suggestions?

I would REALLY like to hear YES, I've done all that - no problem. Or - holy #@@#*#@)*$ why are they having you do that? I would do x/y/z etc etc..

Now - keep in mind my stats / surgery :

31 years
175 pounds
5'7
(so i could lose a little but im doing "ok-ish")
Eat very healthy but have a very sedentary life style (computer geek for living)
1 level ACDF(P) Feb 27th

I would love to hear comments and suggestions!

Thanks!

Sponsor
 



whackedback
04-26-2006, 02:55 PM
Ouch -

How are you feeling after these PT sessions? I hope your therapist is evaluating you at regular intervals. If you don't feel you are being challeged enough tell them, but if they tell you that you should be conservative, do it. You can always start the heavy weights a few months later. It's not going to change much.

Also, have you looked into massage for deep tissue muscle release? If you can go through that, it will let you know how you are really doing.

wb

acdfouch
04-27-2006, 09:09 AM
Ouch -

How are you feeling after these PT sessions? I hope your therapist is evaluating you at regular intervals. If you don't feel you are being challeged enough tell them, but if they tell you that you should be conservative, do it. You can always start the heavy weights a few months later. It's not going to change much.

Also, have you looked into massage for deep tissue muscle release? If you can go through that, it will let you know how you are really doing.

wb

Generally speaking, I feel pretty beat up after the PT - its still new and I was doing nothing for about a month :)

And I'm in no rush at all to show off with the weights. I have no pride when I go there so its not a big deal at all! :)

And last, no, I haven't gotten any massage stuff yet.

I plan to do that in about a month or two .. or at least after my upcoming NS visit to see how the fusion is coming along.

sunshine221
04-27-2006, 10:57 AM
Ouch -

In my non-professional opinion your regimine sounds about right.

Off topic - or perhaps not -- you say you are 31 - what caused your problem in the first place (I know I could go back to old threads, but I'm busy at work (as a computer geek myself)). My doctor says my spinal stenosis was "caused" by wear and tear - I'm 48 and have been in the computer industry for 24 years, I was an engineer before that -- I've now adjusted my desk, chair, etc and I watch my posture -- but if sitting at a desk 8+ hours a day can cause these problems .............

acdfouch
04-27-2006, 11:41 AM
Ouch -

In my non-professional opinion your regimine sounds about right.

Off topic - or perhaps not -- you say you are 31 - what caused your problem in the first place (I know I could go back to old threads, but I'm busy at work (as a computer geek myself)). My doctor says my spinal stenosis was "caused" by wear and tear - I'm 48 and have been in the computer industry for 24 years, I was an engineer before that -- I've now adjusted my desk, chair, etc and I watch my posture -- but if sitting at a desk 8+ hours a day can cause these problems .............

Bang - you got it.

Sounds like we are two of the same!

I'm a 110% computer geek - in work and outside.

I've been doing computers since I was about 4 apparently :) I've seen the pictures.

I had the stereotypical days and nights - tons of soda, staying up all night... etc etc... the odd thing about me is that somehow I am a very personable person and can communicate in the "real world". :)

But I digress... I have ALWAYS had VERY VERY bad posture and never sat right / looked ahead at the screen. I had rounded shoulders and droopy head. 24x7!!

So... I too can not remember one particular instance that brought it all on for me... Just overuse.

I tell people that ask how that I am basically the equivalent of a super athlete when it comes to computers and my body now shows the wear and tear.

So - I, like you, are doing anything and EVERYTHING I can to change that. Getting up and walking around after long sessions (at least every hourish)... Walking 30 mins a day... Eating crazy healthy ... Posture... Everything and anything I can.

I'm going to do everything I can to stay as healthy as possible.

One little side note that I should include in my other thread but will make sense here too...

How many people that have cervical issues find that the rest of their posture sucks? I have found that as I have been improving it, my back is cracking ALL the time... It's just simply not used to it. Perhaps I'm not moving enough... Dunno. Gonna ask mr PT about that today as well. I've found a couple of recent back cracks (not out of choice but just happens.. I don't try to make it happen) I've had a few muscle pulls midback... Ouch!

acdfouch
04-27-2006, 05:52 PM
..... and my update.

Got isometrics before my stretches today.

5 sec hold 15x each (!)

front of head
side of head
back of head

... Guess my guy (for whatever reason) believes it was more important to stretch the muscles out first then move to the isometrics (?)

dennisgb
04-27-2006, 07:02 PM
How many people that have cervical issues find that the rest of their posture sucks? I have found that as I have been improving it, my back is cracking ALL the time... It's just simply not used to it. Perhaps I'm not moving enough... Dunno. Gonna ask mr PT about that today as well. I've found a couple of recent back cracks (not out of choice but just happens.. I don't try to make it happen) I've had a few muscle pulls midback... Ouch!

Cracks and pops are a good thing. That means you are loosening up...a very good sign. If you don't here them, then you are tightening up...muscle spasms :eek:

I try to get my body to make those noises. You should try laying on the floor on your back with the weights on your chest and held in each hand. Try to push your shoulders flat to the floor with the weights resting there. I get a bunch of pops and cracks when I do this. I feel great all day when it happens. Lately I been doing this every night before I go to bed too...you'd be surprised how you tighten up after a day of work.

That's basically what chiropractors do, get the stress out of your bones...I think the nerves are involved too.

Anyway, this is good to hear. Your making progress.

Oh, BTW my posture used to suck.

Dennis

acdfouch
04-27-2006, 08:12 PM
Cracks and pops are a good thing. That means you are loosening up...a very good sign. If you don't here them, then you are tightening up...muscle spasms :eek:

I try to get my body to make those noises. You should try laying on the floor on your back with the weights on your chest and held in each hand. Try to push your shoulders flat to the floor with the weights resting there. I get a bunch of pops and cracks when I do this. I feel great all day when it happens. Lately I been doing this every night before I go to bed too...you'd be surprised how you tighten up after a day of work.

That's basically what chiropractors do, get the stress out of your bones...I think the nerves are involved too.

Anyway, this is good to hear. Your making progress.

Oh, BTW my posture used to suck.

Dennis

Welp, dennis my friend if that is progress, I must be making a LOT of it :)

And I am realllllllllllllllllllly making headway on the posture.

It's almost NOT feeling strange to have good posture :eek:

dennisgb
04-28-2006, 11:45 AM
Welp, dennis my friend if that is progress, I must be making a LOT of it :)

And I am realllllllllllllllllllly making headway on the posture.

It's almost NOT feeling strange to have good posture :eek:

Ouch,

My neck was a mess before my surgery. The two disks were pretty much gone. The weight of my head would push the vertabrae to the side, they would slide out of position. This would press on the nerves.

For about eight years before my surgery, I went to a chiropractor once a week. He would move the vertabrae back into position. He would try to get a "crack". This would relieve the stress and I always felt great afterwards. This worked for a long time, and allowed me to avoid surgery. Every couple of months he would "zipper" my spine, all the way down. You lay on your stomach and they put pressure on your spine and run their hands all the way down. It would pop and crack at each joint. I would feel like a million bucks after that.

He taught me how to manipulate my neck, and if I was having severe pain, I could move the vertabrae myself off the nerve(s). That's how I lasted for so long before I had the surgery. I am alergic to aspirin and ibropropen, so this was one of my only sources of pain relief.

I know there are many that don't "believe" in chiropractic. My experience was very good. I never had any pain from the treatments. My chiropractor once found a medical problem and sent me to my GP doctor. What they found could have killed me had it not been discovered.

Anyway, those pops and cracks are a good thing...as long as they don't hurt. I find that when it happens I feel much less pain. I still get a lot of stress in my shoulders, and those pops are my friend. I know, if I miss a session with my weights, that those stresses are much harder to release, that's why it's important to be religious in your excercise.

Dennis

acdfouch
04-28-2006, 11:58 AM
Ouch,

My neck was a mess before my surgery. The two disks were pretty much gone. The weight of my head would push the vertabrae to the side, they would slide out of position. This would press on the nerves.

For about eight years before my surgery, I went to a chiropractor once a week. He would move the vertabrae back into position. He would try to get a "crack". This would relieve the stress and I always felt great afterwards. This worked for a long time, and allowed me to avoid surgery. Every couple of months he would "zipper" my spine, all the way down. You lay on your stomach and they put pressure on your spine and run their hands all the way down. It would pop and crack at each joint. I would feel like a million bucks after that.

He taught me how to manipulate my neck, and if I was having severe pain, I could move the vertabrae myself off the nerve(s). That's how I lasted for so long before I had the surgery. I am alergic to aspirin and ibropropen, so this was one of my only sources of pain relief.

I know there are many that don't "believe" in chiropractic. My experience was very good. I never had any pain from the treatments. My chiropractor once found a medical problem and sent me to my GP doctor. What they found could have killed me had it not been discovered.

Anyway, those pops and cracks are a good thing...as long as they don't hurt. I find that when it happens I feel much less pain. I still get a lot of stress in my shoulders, and those pops are my friend. I know, if I miss a session with my weights, that those stresses are much harder to release, that's why it's important to be religious in your excercise.

Dennis

Oh yea.

My new religion is exercise.

110%

ember919
04-30-2006, 01:20 PM
You touched on something I've wondered about. I'm in my early 40s and several docs commented on how 'young' I was to be having this type of surgery. And it seemed that much of the ACDF information I found on the internet referenced 'elderly' patients as though that were the norm. But in reading posts here, I found that most people seemed to be right around my age, not much more than mabye +/- 10 years difference.

Just out of curiousity, how many ended up with surgery because of an accident or injury and how many had it just due to, um, natural causes? And how old were you at the time of surgery?

Funny, too, the references to computer use. Most of my work history has involved being at a computer most of the day, and I spent a good amount of time piddling around on it at home, as well. My posture is awful, classic slumped shoulders and head forward position. I would sometimes use a posture brace, the kind that pulled my shoulders back, but I'd still end up sticking my head forward. Trying to be more aware of it now, but old habits are awfully hard to break.

Perhaps connection between computer usage and the neck problems is one of those unanticipated medical issues that only shows up over time. I hear lots of stuff about hand and wrist and eye problems, maybe shoulder and back fatigue, but really nothing about the neck.

SpineAZ
04-30-2006, 01:47 PM
I'll be 40 in August and mine is pretty much due to 'natural causes'. My C5-C7 ACDF is 05/18 (in 18 days - yikes!)

acdfouch
04-30-2006, 02:42 PM
You touched on something I've wondered about. I'm in my early 40s and several docs commented on how 'young' I was to be having this type of surgery. And it seemed that much of the ACDF information I found on the internet referenced 'elderly' patients as though that were the norm. But in reading posts here, I found that most people seemed to be right around my age, not much more than mabye +/- 10 years difference.

Just out of curiousity, how many ended up with surgery because of an accident or injury and how many had it just due to, um, natural causes? And how old were you at the time of surgery?

Funny, too, the references to computer use. Most of my work history has involved being at a computer most of the day, and I spent a good amount of time piddling around on it at home, as well. My posture is awful, classic slumped shoulders and head forward position. I would sometimes use a posture brace, the kind that pulled my shoulders back, but I'd still end up sticking my head forward. Trying to be more aware of it now, but old habits are awfully hard to break.

Perhaps connection between computer usage and the neck problems is one of those unanticipated medical issues that only shows up over time. I hear lots of stuff about hand and wrist and eye problems, maybe shoulder and back fatigue, but really nothing about the neck.

There was a little link on slashdot recently that was an article about "geek injuries" of the future / present ...

Neck / fusions / etc were one of them believe it or not - not just the usual "carpal tunnel" junk.

Yup.

Looks like it is a trend for sure.

Backinthesaddle
05-03-2006, 02:10 PM
Hey Ouch how did you feel after PT? I am hoping to start soon and I know I will be sore. I tried a few times to lift like 3lbs and ache like heck a hour later. To think I was pretty strong and a weight lifter a year ago. So sad....I was thinking while walking with the baby yesterday that just a mere few years ago I competed in running races, barrell racing and lifted weights 3-4 times a week. I have lost it all now and can't wait to get back to riding, and working out. I may never run like I did before but at least I can get some muscle tone back on my body before I loose it all and am just old.

How long were you out of work? I think I am going to post that question out of curiousity.............

K

acdfouch
05-03-2006, 02:18 PM
Hey Ouch how did you feel after PT? I am hoping to start soon and I know I will be sore. I tried a few times to lift like 3lbs and ache like heck a hour later. To think I was pretty strong and a weight lifter a year ago. So sad....I was thinking while walking with the baby yesterday that just a mere few years ago I competed in running races, barrell racing and lifted weights 3-4 times a week. I have lost it all now and can't wait to get back to riding, and working out. I may never run like I did before but at least I can get some muscle tone back on my body before I loose it all and am just old.

How long were you out of work? I think I am going to post that question out of curiousity.............

K

I *believe* at this point I am at this level :

3 weeks back to work
4 weeks into PT
8 weeks I was out of work

And yea - expect to be sore. Matter of fact, I had my share of "scary" soreness from time to time... So much so that it made me post this post and look for an alternative PT "just in case".

Fast forward to today and I think I'm doing pretty well overall. My strength is nowhere near back full yet but ... It's getting there.

And I think PT played a big role in this.

As dennis and mike say.. If it hurts - don't do it.

But I think you will find initially that the distinction between discomfort (ok) and pain (not ok) is pretty difficult to distignuish. That alone was the reason I seeked out my new PT. Hope he is as good as I believe he is!

Getting that one on one I think is very important... My current place just can't provide it.. It's not a puppy mill of PT per say, but they are a very here's-your-stuff-to-do-go-do-it type of place... Good for "normal" injuries but not very good approach for something like a fusion in my opinon. But - if I get a simiar regiment from the new guy... We'll see.

I certainlly will let everyone know the case this evening.

dennisgb
05-03-2006, 03:41 PM
So sad....I was thinking while walking with the baby yesterday that just a mere few years ago I competed in running races, barrell racing and lifted weights 3-4 times a week. I have lost it all now and can't wait to get back to riding, and working out. I may never run like I did before but at least I can get some muscle tone back on my body before I loose it all and am just old.

K,

You know, it's not uncommon to be in this position. Consider, that most people have been suffering for some time before the surgery, and unable to do much "conditioning" type stuff. I know in my case, I was not in the best of shape before the surgery, then, sitting like a lump for 6-8 weeks, not able to eat the right foods, etc.

Well, you can get back in shape. You might just be running at this time next year. Don't be surprised if that happens. Two years out, I am in the best shape I've been in years. I do most everything I want to, and have energy to spare.

Once you get to PT, you will turn a corner shortly after that.

Dennis

ThoreauFan
05-03-2006, 04:02 PM
Just out of curiousity, how many ended up with surgery because of an accident or injury and how many had it just due to, um, natural causes? And how old were you at the time of surgery?
Age 39 at surgery.

I think this is a very interesting issue.

It's our nature to want know cause/effect and have explanations. A legal cause is not the same thing as the pathological cause. I only mention this because of the numerous WC issues present on the boards.

If a hemophiliac gets cut, he/she will bleed. But the cut is only one small part of the equation.

I believe it's the same thing with us.

With respect to the bones, discs, and cartilage, each one of us is on a downward trajectory of degeneration from about age 25-30. A trauma can sometimes promote the advance of the condition. But it's a natural condition.

I don't buy into the computer theory at all. A century ago, the physical demands of life were much, much greater - laundry, cooking, argriculture, building railroads, manual labor, the idustrial age, etc. Millions of people sit at keyboards each day in today's world. A very, very small portion of those people ever have these problems.

We age with each passing day. Life is a degenerative process.

I really don't believe it's any more complicated than that.

As a whole, we expect much, much more from healthcare, though.

My parents were WWII generation (I was born very late - surprise!). My mother cowered under a mattress as a child while her house was bombed. Her father was a POW in WWI for many years and every one of her brothers died in the WWII. My father's mother had her entire family wiped out in WWI before she herself was later executed - **** style. My father was in WWII and saw 5 years of his life devoted to a POW camp.

You know what? I don't recall either of my parents ever complaining about a headache.

It's all in the perspective. ;)

Que sera, sera...

acdfouch
05-03-2006, 06:21 PM
Thought I would post this here too...

I'll probably be adding to both threads same info so people can keep an eye on this for themselves...

New PT rocks.

Hands down.

Short version is this :

He has me doing "GENTLE" stretching exercises to start with.

From there, we will be focusing on nerve loosening exercises (dunno yet - we start this later) and he doesn't believe in weights for someone with a fusion.

"Why put more stress on something when you can just utilize your own body to provide the same result"

I was sold again.

Apparently, if I heard him right, I will be doing some type of ball type exercises or something along those lines for the strengthing.

I'm REALLY liking this guy.

And hes going to push me to keep perfect posture... AND he's not only teling me to do it - hes going to show me how to do it.

Sounds silly to a "normal" person but I think we all know how much we all really need this education!

All in all Im VERY VERY happy.

He doesnt feel that I overdid anything per say in my past few weeks, but it is not his method..

He even has cervical fusion patients.. And quite a few!

And this guy is the owner and operator.

Doesn't take more than like 3 - 4 people at a time and he has one additional person on staff.

PERFECT.

dennisgb
05-03-2006, 07:08 PM
With respect to the bones, discs, and cartilage, each one of us is on a downward trajectory of degeneration from about age 25-30.

Actually it starts at birth. The discs are the only body part without a blood or moisture supply. They start to dry out the day you are born. Certain life styles, nutrition and drugs can speed this up.

The arthritic portion of the aging process...is different in each person. Basically many of us have arthritis in our necks (they don't call it that, but that's what it is).

Bone spurs are a different matter. Many people live normal lives with them. It's when they grow into the nerve passages when it's a problem (like in my case).

These problems are all age related. Basically degeneration as "Funny" is pointing out. Posture may make things worse, but is not the root cause.

Dennis

ThoreauFan
05-03-2006, 09:49 PM
Actually it starts at birth. The discs are the only body part without a blood or moisture supply. They start to dry out the day you are born. Certain life styles, nutrition and drugs can speed this up.

The arthritic portion of the aging process...is different in each person. Basically many of us have arthritis in our necks (they don't call it that, but that's what it is).

Bone spurs are a different matter. Many people live normal lives with them. It's when they grow into the nerve passages when it's a problem (like in my case).

These problems are all age related. Basically degeneration as "Funny" is pointing out. Posture may make things worse, but is not the root cause.

Dennis

Dennis,

Thanks for the added clarification!

Curious...

Can bone spurs be the result of the "arthritis?" Or can they just grow purely on their own? Or both? Bone spurs in the foraminal areas are puzzling to me. No idea where they come from.

I thought bone spurs are natural byproducts of joints degenerating (the cartilage/discs, anyway). The spine moves slightly differently as the discs degenerate and stress is re-allocated. The body, as I undertsood it, reacts to the change in bodily stress by forming new bone - the spurs. I thought the purpose of the fusion is to stabilize the area. Bone spurs can actually dissipate on their own after the stress is removed. This cyle begins with the disc degeneration, or so I thought, anyway. :confused:

Do the discs continue to increase in size through adulthood prior to peaking or is the disc size never larger than when one is born? It sounds like the latter from what you're indicating.

Thanks! :bouncing:

Backinthesaddle
05-03-2006, 10:18 PM
F4M I agree and disagree with your perspective only from the point of todays generations and injuries. I believe that our forefathers were in much better shape simply because they did do all that work from such an early age. My dad was WWII and my grandfather WWI and only in the past 5 or so years has my dad slowed down a bit (he is 79). He still plays golf 2-3 times a week, mows and keeps most of the house since my mom is in bad physical shape. He was a runner through school and ran his first marathon at 54 with several to follow, he rode horses, raced cars and lifted weights ( I am my fathers daughter) and he can no longer walk on the treadmill due to hip pain but he is in better shape then I am. It could be that something has changed in our bone makeup that makes us a weaker generation and those to come even weaker since most kids today do not even get off their rear to go outside and play.

I do know we all degenerate but an injury can certainly cause that to happen faster then natural. Some of us have jobs that keep us on the move with a lot of physical requirements. I know I have had 5 car accidents and two were high speed, numerous fights, and hours in a car with heavy equipment and chances are in a different profession I would not be facing two surgeries with more to follow. But I will never know.....................

That said W/C has been b@st-ardized over the years to the point that it no longer will just treat you if you claim a work injury. You better darn well have proof! As it should be.

Now why did I write all this? Ugh I guess just to chime in........my 2 cents

acdfouch
05-04-2006, 08:35 AM
Actually it starts at birth. The discs are the only body part without a blood or moisture supply. They start to dry out the day you are born. Certain life styles, nutrition and drugs can speed this up.

The arthritic portion of the aging process...is different in each person. Basically many of us have arthritis in our necks (they don't call it that, but that's what it is).

Bone spurs are a different matter. Many people live normal lives with them. It's when they grow into the nerve passages when it's a problem (like in my case).

These problems are all age related. Basically degeneration as "Funny" is pointing out. Posture may make things worse, but is not the root cause.

Dennis

And on that note... As my new guy feels, posture is the best defense once you find that you are having problems with your spine - from whatever you want to call it - DDD, just the way it is, etc etc... Of course, he feels if there is something that is not repairable by posture and PT alone - so be it. He doesn't argue that it doesn't happen. But, he says to protect yourself - posture posture, posture!

He made an AMAZING point / example.

Find something that's 5 pounds. A five pound weight would obviously do well but something you can hold in your hand.

Put your arm straight out.

Hold your wrist straight out.

Ok... Hold that for a min or two.

That pressure you feel on your wrist is much like the pressure just your head puts on the squishy discs inbetween each vertabrae (this is to "normal" people. for us fusion people, 2x)

Now.

Bend your wrist (while holding it) down as far as you can go. Don't move you r arm down - JUST your wrist.

Hold that for a couple of minutes.

That's a lot of pressure, right?

Well. That's the same type of pressure that your spine is taking if you dont have proper pressure.

This guy is good.

Stupid simple anaology but very effective.

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 11:39 AM
Can bone spurs be the result of the "arthritis?" Or can they just grow purely on their own? Or both? Bone spurs in the foraminal areas are puzzling to me. No idea where they come from.

I thought bone spurs are natural byproducts of joints degenerating (the cartilage/discs, anyway). The spine moves slightly differently as the discs degenerate and stress is re-allocated. The body, as I undertsood it, reacts to the change in bodily stress by forming new bone - the spurs. I thought the purpose of the fusion is to stabilize the area. Bone spurs can actually dissipate on their own after the stress is removed. This cyle begins with the disc degeneration, or so I thought, anyway. :confused:

Do the discs continue to increase in size through adulthood prior to peaking or is the disc size never larger than when one is born? It sounds like the latter from what you're indicating.

Funny,

Yeah, you are right on about the bone spurs, they are caused by the body trying to aid and support. Many of us have the nasty ones that grow into the nerve passages. I had one big one that was causing about 90% of my pain.

Your question about the size of the discs is an interesting one. I must do a little research on this, as you would think, that they would be smaller at birth. So, the question is, how can they grow, if there is no blood supply? Hmmm?

Dennis

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 11:47 AM
I do know we all degenerate but an injury can certainly cause that to happen faster then natural. Some of us have jobs that keep us on the move with a lot of physical requirements. I know I have had 5 car accidents and two were high speed, numerous fights, and hours in a car with heavy equipment and chances are in a different profession I would not be facing two surgeries with more to follow. But I will never know.....................

BITS,

An injury is a completely different matter. The proceedures to repair are the same, but the root cause is very different. You may have led a normal life with no problems at all, if you hadn't been injured.

I will say, that I think my problems originally started due to a car accident I had in 1984. I was rear ended at a stop light, and didn't have a seat belt on. I got classic whip lash, but really felt nothing. I saw lights flashing in my head when it happened, and my neck was tender for a few days, but I thought I was fine. Not long after that I started having problems...by the time I was diagnosed 8 years later, they called it "Degenerative Disk Desease".

Boy, you got me thinking now. :eek:

Dennis

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 11:49 AM
Ouch,

I think you have the right PT guy now.

Sounds exactly like the one I had.

Dennis

acdfouch
05-04-2006, 12:13 PM
Ouch,

I think you have the right PT guy now.

Sounds exactly like the one I had.

Dennis

Agreed 110%.

I just wish I had made the jump earlier.

Not much I can do other than move on...

I'm really interested to see how the progression will go and what types of thigns he will have me doing.

One interesting difference right off the bat besides the ones I have stated..

He has me doing similar stretches but only to "midrange".

From there, he has me doing them 10x at 5 sec each.

Before, I was doing stretches 2x 15 sec each.

I imagine that the difference is that if I hold too long, the thought is I am putting stress on it - not stretching the muscles..

Of course, I am inferring this but so far... I'm in love! :)

Backinthesaddle
05-04-2006, 12:41 PM
Hey guys let me ask you, did or do you have burning type pain deep into the tissue like under the bones that aches, burns and it makes your head feel funny? I cannot explain the pain I have had for like ever now but my head feels foggy and I ache so deep into the tissues that it feels like it is way under the bones so that the bones feel like they hurt. I feel this in my shoulder blades the most and where the shoulder blade and arm meet. Also burning in the arms and neck. I still have awful jaw aching (not TMJ). When I wake up in the morning I am so weak I can barely move my arms, is that normal? After about an hour I feel better in that respect but still have a hangover feeling most of the day.

I got tired of waiting for PT so I took out my HUGE 3lb weights (OMG I would have laughed myself silly a 1.5yrs ago) and did some light tricep, shoulder and bicep exercises. I did like 15 reps. Later on and today I realize not a good idea. I have lifted weights for about 20yrs so I know I was doing them correctly just not up to even 3 lbs yet. So sad. My elbows hurt like heck.

Just wondered since you guys are active over here so I asked here if you felt like that?????? I am now 10 weeks post and expect better. Then again my doc did say it would take a year or so to recover........................I really want to ride my horses and get my son used to that................but do not have the strength to fight with 1500 lbs of fresh horse flesh.

And yes my dear next year at this time I hope to be training for a marathon. I still plan on doing one or more like my daddy did. I loved running far distances.................

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 12:58 PM
BITS,

Oh yes, I remember the hangover feeling. One question...are you still on pain meds?

BTW, I am rooting for you to run that marathon :bouncing:

Dennis

acdfouch
05-04-2006, 01:18 PM
Hey guys let me ask you, did or do you have burning type pain deep into the tissue like under the bones that aches, burns and it makes your head feel funny? I cannot explain the pain I have had for like ever now but my head feels foggy and I ache so deep into the tissues that it feels like it is way under the bones so that the bones feel like they hurt. I feel this in my shoulder blades the most and where the shoulder blade and arm meet. Also burning in the arms and neck. I still have awful jaw aching (not TMJ). When I wake up in the morning I am so weak I can barely move my arms, is that normal? After about an hour I feel better in that respect but still have a hangover feeling most of the day.


Let's see.

I think its all normal.

As I'm sitting here, I have a pretty good muscle ache / burn in both of my scapula and the muscles that hold the head up.

It's just from little to no use over the past two months and things have to get back to normal.

I have also had... I don't know how to describe it other than this - head "tingle" feelings....

I'm NOT suggesting you do this ... wait till you get PT BUT my current PT suggested the best exercise for cervical headaches is to do a walk like an egyption (my words - not his again) type exercise where you keep your head perfectly stili and move the head back slightly ... hold 5 sec.. now extend the heda out ... hold 5 sec.

His feelings are that this gets the blood flowing and stops things from getting constricted.

It seems to have helped me with the tension side of my headaches.. I believe the "front" side was truely a sinus infection of sorts (or allergies)

ThoreauFan
05-04-2006, 01:32 PM
Your question about the size of the discs is an interesting one. I must do a little research on this, as you would think, that they would be smaller at birth. So, the question is, how can they grow, if there is no blood supply? Hmmm?

Dennis
Keep in mind, this is just some stuff I found on the net, not the Gospel:

"There is minimal blood supply to the disc, and blood is what brings healing nutrients and oxygen to damaged structures in the body. This means that the spinal disc lacks any significant reparative powers. Unlike muscles, which have good blood supply, once a spinal disc is injured it cannot repair itself."

I believe the discs may max their water content - about 80% - at birth, but there are also changes in the disc proteins as we age. I lose interest as the explanations become more complex - nucleous fibrous, collagen rings, etc. :yawn:

ThoreauFan
05-04-2006, 02:22 PM
...he is 79. ... he can no longer walk on the treadmill due to hip pain but he is in better shape then I am. It could be that something has changed in our bone makeup that makes us a weaker generation and those to come even weaker since most kids today do not even get off their rear to go outside and play.
Bones are a different matter. Consider it similar to a retirement account: We only get to make deposits - bone growth/density - through X age (say, 25). From then on, our bones begin to lose their density and strength. Fewer stem cells in our bone marrow make healing from bone injury - the creation of new bone - more difficult. In women, particularly, hormones play a role in bone loss (osteoporosis). In extreme cases, bones may break under minimal stress.

I do know we all degenerate but an injury can certainly cause that to happen faster then natural.
Absolutely. But most people can suffer the same injuries and not incur an increase in degeneration or share the types of health issues we see on these boards. There are professional gymnasts, dancers, athletes, weightlifters, boxers, dentists, surgeons, race car drivers, stuntmen, etc. who place greater stresses on these areas yet the professions do not correlate with higher rates of our types of disease.

I'll place a few remaining thoughts in another post...

ThoreauFan
05-04-2006, 02:48 PM
Some of us have jobs that keep us on the move with a lot of physical requirements. I know I have had 5 car accidents and two were high speed, numerous fights, and hours in a car with heavy equipment and chances are in a different profession I would not be facing two surgeries with more to follow. But I will never know.....................
Yes, but it very well may be our particular biological dispositions contribute greatly. Of 100 people sharing the same set of experiences, maybe only 5 would ever face the same issues. And maybe those 5 would have those problems anyway.

The most common spine issue seen in car accidents is lumbar. The same goes for long term sitting (car). I can correlate my cervical issues to a high speed, multiple impact (neck whipping around) car accident. Maybe it promoted the condition or maybe it was the sole cause. Most of us seem to have cervical issues, which is the most common area for degenerative problems. Non-degenerative traumatic injuries - say, a compression fracture of a vertabrae - are rarely seen here.

When those discs shrink, our spines moves differently and stresses may be placed on other areas. For instance, my fusion will result in greater stress, at a minimum, to my C4 and C8/T1 levels. Likely, this will cause problems requiring more surgery in the future, given my particular circumstance. I already have problems at those levels.

My greater point was our innate need for cause/effect and explanations. Some people seek answers in church, from a psychic, a therapist, medical journals, or elsewhere. We find comfort in correlating cause/effect. In reality, people who never smoke get lung cancer. Completely healthy people - runner Jim Fixx - suffer heart attacks at an early age.

Sometimes it just happens.

...That said W/C has been b@st-ardized over the years to the point that it no longer will just treat you if you claim a work injury. You better darn well have proof! As it should be.
I know a little about WC.

Basically, irrespective of any pre-existing condition, if you suffer an injury while in the course and scope of employment, it should be covered by WC. That doesn't mean it's the "cause," BTW. WC is a "no fault" system.

There is some light at the end of the tunnel:

"... However, if patients can find a way to manage their back pain and maintain their function, the natural history is really quite favorable. With continued disc degeneration, all the inflammatory proteins within the disc space will eventually burn out, and the disc will usually become stiffer, thus decreasing micro-motion. In fact, someone who is 65 years old is actually less likely to have discogenic back pain than someone who is 35 years old."

:wave:

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 02:49 PM
"There is minimal blood supply to the disc, and blood is what brings healing nutrients and oxygen to damaged structures in the body. This means that the spinal disc lacks any significant reparative powers. Unlike muscles, which have good blood supply, once a spinal disc is injured it cannot repair itself."

I believe the discs may max their water content - about 80% - at birth, but there are also changes in the disc proteins as we age. I lose interest as the explanations become more complex - nucleous fibrous, collagen rings, etc. :yawn:

Hey, you found it! That's basically what I was trying to say...Thanks!

dennisgb
05-04-2006, 02:55 PM
Bones are a different matter. Consider it similar to a retirement account: We only get to make deposits - bone growth/density - through X age (say, 25). From then on, our bones begin to lose their density and strength. Fewer stem cells in our bone marrow make healing from bone injury - the creation of new bone - more difficult. In women, particularly, hormones play a role in bone loss (osteoporosis). In extreme cases, bones may break under minimal stress.

Funny,

The one thing that I know is that you can improve bone mass and improve bone growth (particularly in our cases), by taking calcium and vitamin D. I was on CitraCal and Vitamin D for a year. I also had the growth hormone paste put on my bone and the donor bone, so I probably cheated :)

Dennis

ThoreauFan
05-04-2006, 03:08 PM
Funny,

The one thing that I know is that you can improve bone mass and improve bone growth (particularly in our cases), by taking calcium and vitamin D. I was on CitraCal and Vitamin D for a year. I also had the growth hormone paste put on my bone and the donor bone, so I probably cheated :)

Dennis
I've been going through a similar regimen:

Citracal (Calcium & Vitamin D) to supply those stem cells with bone making material. I also had the growth factor - proteins to give my fusion a head start. I take Glucosomine/Chondroitin to minimize disc/cartilage/joint degeneration (no hard clinical data, but what the hey ;) ). And I take a fish oil supplement because in addition to helping promote good cholesterol I read that it may related to blocking conduction of one of the chemicals responsible for neurotransmitting pain.

That's a lot of "ifs," but who knows? :confused:

ThoreauFan
05-04-2006, 03:28 PM
Don't want anyone thinking they can't fuse because of the bone stuff I placed above.

This is a better articulated explanation of how our bones grow/heal:

"Throughout your lifetime, old bone is removed (resorption) and new bone is added to the skeleton (formation). During childhood and teenage years, new bone is added faster than old bone is removed. As a result, bones become larger, heavier, and denser. Bone formation continues at a pace faster than resorption until peak bone mass (maximum bone density and strength) is reached around age 30. After age 30, bone resorption slowly begins to exceed bone formation. Bone loss is most rapid in the first few years after menopause but persists into the postmenopausal years. Osteoporosis develops when bone resorption occurs too quickly or if replacement occurs too slowly. Osteoporosis is more likely to develop if you did not reach optimal bone mass during your bone building years."

Old bone is removed by "osteoclasts" and new bone is formed by "osteoblasts." Resporption begins outpacing formation by about age 30. The good news is, there are new drugs for those suffering from extreme cases of osteoporosis.

I hope that's clearer. We can and thankfully do grow new bone. :angel:

acdfouch
05-05-2006, 11:56 AM
Second appointment yesterday.

Another good feeling.

My stuff involved :

Stretches -
Head left - 10x 5 sec each (gentle pressure on chin with two fingers)
Head right - 10x 5 sec each (gentle pressure on chin with two fingers)
Head to shoudler - 10x 5 sec each (gentle pressure on chin with two fingers)
Head down - 10x 5 sec each
Head up - 10x 5 sec each

A really good one.. This might be hard to explain.. Sit on end of chair. Sit slouched... From this position, get the best possible posture of all time... chest out... natural curves etc etc etc... Now lean off 10%. Hold for 10 sec. Repeat 10 times

Rowing machine
5 min forward
5 min backward

Weights
2 pound shoulder shrug 10x 2 rep

Stretches
Red band
Bicep type curls 10x time 2 rep
Tricep type down to side 10x 2 rep

Stretching by PT
On table
He gently :
Moved left right held
Had me chin to chest
Had hands under neck and ... pulsed his hands (hard to describe)
And a few others...

I think that was about it...

How do I feel today?

Sore.

Sore as hell.

And I think I have a little nerve irratation but nothing that is sending me home from work... It could also be me feeling the "burn" as a ... "burn".

I know you all out there know what I mean.

So - comments / thoughts?

I see him again Monday / Wed / Friday.

Very excited still.

Backinthesaddle
05-06-2006, 12:03 AM
F4M you make way to much sense for my brain.......thanks. About the lumbar being the usual injury in car accidents, I have a horrible lower back. I found that out in 94 when I couldn't bend over and tie my boots. Walking down stairs was so hard I prayed and lucked out in these bad days that no one ran from me. I had a MRI done and was supposed to do PT but didn't. I just kept lifting weights and running and eventually most of the pain lessoned. Until about 2001 and while running a relay I was hurting so bad. I stopped running long distance since then. Doc said that the bones would fuse themselves in time. As long as my abs are in shape my back is OK. Lately of course my back acts up since my abs are well, flabby..........I need to get back to the gym.

Hmmm as for bone growth, I do know that when my neck doctor did the surgery he mentioned that I had good bones. My sister who is 55 and not in menopause yet gets her bone density tested regulariy and it is great. I still think that is because we as children of the pre-70's spent most of our time playing outside. Learning how to build a tree fort, fall, run and play and not watch tv or play video games. I vow to now allow my son to do that with all his free time.

Ouch good to see that PT is going well. I know that neck stretch you are talking about. I did that for my last neck surgery.

That head fuzzy thing I have all the time. I say it is like breathing in air from a very dirty dirty dirty warehouse. Oddest feeling. The deep aches are just so hard to explain. Glad it is normal. Now see you have had to go home from work a few times since starting PT that is why I do not want to go back to work until I have been past that point since if I leave I have to take my own personal sick time.

Bummer my husband had to give back our keyboard. I have a laptop and have been so used to using it. Now using the computer is really hurting my arms and hands, why? Maybe the angle or not being able to rest them. But that will slow me down quit a bit. Makes my fingers and wrists hurt.

I am looking forward to Monday and starting PT. Then looking forward to my next feat-riding again.

K





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