nowhere-child
05-26-2006, 08:51 AM
I have a friend with a 2 (exactly) year old boy. She says he will say "some" words, but frankly I've only just heard him screaming in the background whenever I call her. He is obsessed with feces, to the point where they have to tape not only his diaper shut, but tape zippers and such so he can't even get down to the diaper. He apparently smears and throws poop, especially at night. My friend says it's a "stage".
He also eats paper to the extent that they can't let him have access to books unsupervised. He tries to eat rocks, dirt, and grass. Recently, she caught him drinking from a mud puddle at a ball game they went to.
She is a loving mother with some background in early childhood education. She wryly laughs when discussing his "antics" with me. I am becoming very concerned by what's going on. Is she in denial, or have I simply forgotten how 2 year olds behave? I don't remember my own kids ever doing these things.
She said the other day that she is going to mention his pica to the pedi, simply b/c she is worried that it may mean he's anemic. I seriously doubt this is the explaination, given the delay in words, and the poop obsession...what do you all think? How can I convey to her that this is something outside the norm? She really kind of crows about the fact she is so well educated in child development. She pretty much changes the subject if I voice any concern about him.
I'm just hoping the ped will pick up on any problems when he goes for his 2 year old check. Should I butt out?
He also eats paper to the extent that they can't let him have access to books unsupervised. He tries to eat rocks, dirt, and grass. Recently, she caught him drinking from a mud puddle at a ball game they went to.
She is a loving mother with some background in early childhood education. She wryly laughs when discussing his "antics" with me. I am becoming very concerned by what's going on. Is she in denial, or have I simply forgotten how 2 year olds behave? I don't remember my own kids ever doing these things.
She said the other day that she is going to mention his pica to the pedi, simply b/c she is worried that it may mean he's anemic. I seriously doubt this is the explaination, given the delay in words, and the poop obsession...what do you all think? How can I convey to her that this is something outside the norm? She really kind of crows about the fact she is so well educated in child development. She pretty much changes the subject if I voice any concern about him.
I'm just hoping the ped will pick up on any problems when he goes for his 2 year old check. Should I butt out?
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9CatMom
05-26-2006, 09:37 AM
These things co-existing together are a sign of a serious problem. I think, for this boy's sake, the problems should be addressed when he is still young. The dirt and paper eating does sound like pica.
soozeq
05-26-2006, 09:46 AM
Hi There
My son, Liam (almost 3) was just very recently diagnosed autistic. My Dr. noted her concerns when I brought him in to discuss problems with his speech, and it went from there. After my paediatrician told me her suspicians, it became obvious to me as well. Like your friend, I also have a backgroung in ECE.
Once everything had come to light, I found out that both of my sisters had concerns the same as yours, and, like you, have even posted a message on an autism message board, a full year before the diagnosis. But, they did not talk to me. Personally, I wish they had. Maybe it would have been enough to shake me out of my denial. I also thought that a lot of his behaviours were just phases. Now that my daughter, who is NT is turning 1 (today is here birthday), the differences are astounding. They are at the same level, socially.
I say, talk to her. She probably wont want to hear it. But maybe, just maybe, it will stick in the back of her mind and she'll start to notice the differences. The first time that someone actually said something to me, about Liam, I couldn't stop talking for the next 2 hours about all of the things I saw and denied.Sometimes it just needs to be said, even if it hurts.
I know that others may disagree with me, and that's okay. Everyone has a different experience. But, I truly believe that if either of my sisters had approached me with their thoughts, we may have gotten him services a full year earlier.
Bless you for being so caring and I hope that all goes well for you. I hope that your friends child is just going through a phase. Sometimes it's great to be proven wrong.
Suzy
My son, Liam (almost 3) was just very recently diagnosed autistic. My Dr. noted her concerns when I brought him in to discuss problems with his speech, and it went from there. After my paediatrician told me her suspicians, it became obvious to me as well. Like your friend, I also have a backgroung in ECE.
Once everything had come to light, I found out that both of my sisters had concerns the same as yours, and, like you, have even posted a message on an autism message board, a full year before the diagnosis. But, they did not talk to me. Personally, I wish they had. Maybe it would have been enough to shake me out of my denial. I also thought that a lot of his behaviours were just phases. Now that my daughter, who is NT is turning 1 (today is here birthday), the differences are astounding. They are at the same level, socially.
I say, talk to her. She probably wont want to hear it. But maybe, just maybe, it will stick in the back of her mind and she'll start to notice the differences. The first time that someone actually said something to me, about Liam, I couldn't stop talking for the next 2 hours about all of the things I saw and denied.Sometimes it just needs to be said, even if it hurts.
I know that others may disagree with me, and that's okay. Everyone has a different experience. But, I truly believe that if either of my sisters had approached me with their thoughts, we may have gotten him services a full year earlier.
Bless you for being so caring and I hope that all goes well for you. I hope that your friends child is just going through a phase. Sometimes it's great to be proven wrong.
Suzy
nowhere-child
05-26-2006, 10:34 AM
Suzy,
Thank you very much. I think I may do eactly what you suggested, as soon as I can get up the nerve. I also neglected to mention that this child recently fell on his arm, and displayed no apparent pain. It was a bit swollen, but otherwise he seemed fine. They did take him to the doctor the next day when the swelling got worse, and he had a fully broken arm. NO PAIN EXPRESSED by the child. She has often remarked that he has no fear whatsoever.
I'm trying to write up a script if you will, to talk to her. I think she may be very, very offended. But as you said, maybe it will just put a bug in her ear about it.
Thank you very much. I think I may do eactly what you suggested, as soon as I can get up the nerve. I also neglected to mention that this child recently fell on his arm, and displayed no apparent pain. It was a bit swollen, but otherwise he seemed fine. They did take him to the doctor the next day when the swelling got worse, and he had a fully broken arm. NO PAIN EXPRESSED by the child. She has often remarked that he has no fear whatsoever.
I'm trying to write up a script if you will, to talk to her. I think she may be very, very offended. But as you said, maybe it will just put a bug in her ear about it.
9CatMom
05-26-2006, 11:16 AM
Inability to feel pain is also a serious sign. In some people, this is so extreme that it can put a person's life in danger. They won't feel it if their appendix burst, they got severely burned, etc. That is scary.
soozeq
05-26-2006, 12:49 PM
Liam is also extremely hypo-reactive when it comes to pain. He has cut himself, banged himself and fallen from some height, without acknowledging it. It is scary. he also shows no fear. He wants to jump off of furniture, and crashes into walls, injuring himself. He has been like that since infancy. When he was learning to walk, it was down-right terrifying.
You friend's son needs Occupational Therapy for Sensory Integration sooner than later. There is a book, that you can get at Amazon, called Building Bridges through Sensory Integration, written, in part, by one of Canada's top OTs. It's a very good book, that I refer to a lot. I've attended talks by the author, and she's truly wonderful. In fact, we are taking my son to see her for his first appt in the next couple of weeks.
You are very brave to risk offending your friend for the sake of her child. Remeber, every child needs a hero. Maybe that can be you. I wish I had someone like you during my time of denial.
Suzy
You friend's son needs Occupational Therapy for Sensory Integration sooner than later. There is a book, that you can get at Amazon, called Building Bridges through Sensory Integration, written, in part, by one of Canada's top OTs. It's a very good book, that I refer to a lot. I've attended talks by the author, and she's truly wonderful. In fact, we are taking my son to see her for his first appt in the next couple of weeks.
You are very brave to risk offending your friend for the sake of her child. Remeber, every child needs a hero. Maybe that can be you. I wish I had someone like you during my time of denial.
Suzy
nowhere-child
05-26-2006, 01:42 PM
Suzy (or anyone), I'll bother you just one more time.
Is there any checklist of either A) what normal kids do at this age, or B) what kids with either autism or PDD do at such a young age?
I've seen some of the diagnostic criteria for autism and Aspergers, but it seems to me he's too young to classically fit them.
What I guess I'm looking for, is a definitive source she can't argue with that the whole constellation of behaviors is concerning, not just a single thing that could be explained away.
Ideas? She again, is very knowledgeable in the ECE area. She might respect some written reference more than just my limited concern.
Is there any checklist of either A) what normal kids do at this age, or B) what kids with either autism or PDD do at such a young age?
I've seen some of the diagnostic criteria for autism and Aspergers, but it seems to me he's too young to classically fit them.
What I guess I'm looking for, is a definitive source she can't argue with that the whole constellation of behaviors is concerning, not just a single thing that could be explained away.
Ideas? She again, is very knowledgeable in the ECE area. She might respect some written reference more than just my limited concern.
soozeq
05-26-2006, 02:28 PM
I think that I would be nervous of giving her a list of typical/atypical behaviours. That would be a lot of information to process at once. You can't just open up your mind and accept such a thorough description at once. She knows that he is into feces, she knows about the non-reaction to pain. There's no way she can't. I'm sure she's already worried, all kinds. Don't try to diagnose him. Just point out the behaviours and let her know how much they concern you. Suggest that she make her own list to show her Dr at his 2 year well-baby. Leave the diagnosis to them.
This is delicate. It is a life trauma to realize that yes.. this is real, my child is different, and will probably always be. I'm sure that she is already very worried about her son. I was for almost 2 years, before I said anything. But, a list of autism symptoms would have been overwhelming for me. Just let her know that you see these behaviours too. They are not just in her mind. If this doesn't get you anywhere, then consider getting more agressive. Baby steps.
Suzy
This is delicate. It is a life trauma to realize that yes.. this is real, my child is different, and will probably always be. I'm sure that she is already very worried about her son. I was for almost 2 years, before I said anything. But, a list of autism symptoms would have been overwhelming for me. Just let her know that you see these behaviours too. They are not just in her mind. If this doesn't get you anywhere, then consider getting more agressive. Baby steps.
Suzy
jenfon
05-26-2006, 03:21 PM
Sometimes you just can't see the forest for the trees. I have a medical background, and sometimes I have run across health concerns with my family members and I will be clusless, but when the doctor tells them what it is, I am like "I should know that it was so clear". But since it's your own family you tend to think in a different way. Also with her being so used to him acting this way she has probably become immune to it and doesn't realize how bad it really is, where you are looking from the outside in and see it all. I would get some research things( internet, books, etc.) and conveniently, leave them for her to find and hopefully read. Good luck!
jenfon
jenfon
sallzyx
05-30-2006, 09:05 PM
Instead of bringing her info and saying what YOU think he has, I would keep the channel of communication open so that she can talk about things that are on HER mind. Maybe she recognizes some things but isn't willing to discuss them with you. Being there for her without judgment will allow her to explore what is really going on.
I also have a teaching background, and one of the first things they said is that WE do not make the diagnosis! Saying that you think her child has x y or z will only put up her defenses.
I also have a teaching background, and one of the first things they said is that WE do not make the diagnosis! Saying that you think her child has x y or z will only put up her defenses.
SuchGreatHeight
05-30-2006, 10:28 PM
I agree that you may want to bring up this to the mother. If she wants info, there is the CHAT (http://depts.washington.edu/dataproj/chat.html) (Checklist for Autism in Toddlers), as well as the CARS (http://www.patientcenters.com/autism/news/diag_tools.html#CARS) (Childhood Autism Rating Scale).
It is good though, that she is going to talk to the pedi. I'm sure he will shed some light for her.
SGH
It is good though, that she is going to talk to the pedi. I'm sure he will shed some light for her.
SGH
nowhere-child
05-31-2006, 06:03 PM
I tried gently broaching the subject with her, and she was strangely cheerful, informing me that he was now "chatting like a magpie" and "well on the way to being potty trained".
Then she had to hang up b/c he pooped on the floor, having somehow wriggled out of his duct-taped diaper and made some deposits all over the house. I'm dead serious.
I think she will pretty much stonewall the ped with the same misinformation that I'm getting. The boy literally does not stop SCREAMING everytime she is on the phone. Unintelligible screams, moans, sobs...I don't know. Hopefully the ped will get a clue. She told me point blank that he converses with them in full and complete sentences. I simply do not believe it.
Then she had to hang up b/c he pooped on the floor, having somehow wriggled out of his duct-taped diaper and made some deposits all over the house. I'm dead serious.
I think she will pretty much stonewall the ped with the same misinformation that I'm getting. The boy literally does not stop SCREAMING everytime she is on the phone. Unintelligible screams, moans, sobs...I don't know. Hopefully the ped will get a clue. She told me point blank that he converses with them in full and complete sentences. I simply do not believe it.
Dark Stranger
06-01-2006, 12:00 PM
I always thought it was normal for young kids to be obsessed with feces and want to touch it, play with it, throw it, eat it, and so forth. But the dirt-eating and paper-eating, as other have said, does sound like pica. Then again, don't kids normally like eating bizarre things at that age? I don't know - kids do a lot of weird things when their toddlers and it's totally normal, but I would strongly advise that you encourage your friend to at least speak to a pediatrician, just to be safe. Unless, of course, she's okay with her son eating earth for a midday snack or leaving piles of feces all over her house.
9CatMom
06-01-2006, 11:58 PM
I first heard about pica in Siamese cats. In this breed, it manifests itself in similar unusual behaviors. One manifestation of pica in cats is wool sucking. Cats and people with pica are known to have unusual eating habits.