I'm signing up to the gym in 2 days. My main aim is to lose weight, I'll be doing cardio almost every day such as on the treadmill, on the bike and rowing etc. I heard that building chest muscles and doing weightlifting can help lose fat so I'll be doing some weightlifting and muscle building excercises.

Then it got me thinking, is it possible to the ultimate thing....... lose weight AND gain muscle? Not put on a bit of muscle, but a lot of muscle.

I heard you need to have 6 meals a day at least to put on sufficient muscle, and if you're looking to loose weight then this might not be a good idea. However, if my main is loosing weight, do protein shakes (which counts as 1 meal) harm or prevent fat loss? If not, then is it possible to build a lot of chest muscle (I'm not looking to have big arms really, just a wide chest) by having 3 protein shakes and 3 meals - which equals the recommended amount of 6 meals a day for serious muscle building.

I'm in still in school so I can't do heavy weights as I don't want to stunt my growth. However, surely you can lose weight and gain a lot of muscle at the same time?

Also, if I go to the gym then I'm looking to go twice a day - in the morning for cardio workouts and in the evening for muscle building. The reason being that I'll be too tired for muscle building after doing cardio. If I go on the morning and have breakfast BEFORE my workout, do I still burn efficient amount of fat or does it decrease a lot? I need energy in the morning.

The reason I ask it because people say they want to burn fat first and then build muscle, but I wonder why? Surely if you want quick results you'd do both at the same time?? Unless taking protein shakes slows down fat loss or building muscle harms fat loss......?

I hope I've made myself clear on what I mean....

I'm signing up to the gym in 2 days. My main aim is to lose weight, I'll be doing cardio almost every day such as on the treadmill, on the bike and rowing etc. I heard that building chest muscles and doing weightlifting can help lose fat so I'll be doing some weightlifting and muscle building excercises.

Then it got me thinking, is it possible to the ultimate thing....... lose weight AND gain muscle? Not put on a bit of muscle, but a lot of muscle.

Ok, here's the problem: Muscle weights more than fat. What this means is that if you start building muscle, you WILL lose fat and gain muscle, but you WON'T (necessarily) lose any weight. In fact you may gain weight initially. This is a common worry that people new to working out have - they get on the scales a few weeks into doing weight/cardio work, and find they've put on weight :eek: and it scares them, despite them probably losing a few pounds of fat.

Although I'm no expert, I would say it's difficult to achieve both goals at the same time - losing physical weight but gaining muscle. Perhaps what you really mean is losing FAT but gaining muscle? This is totally possible, but don't confuse the two things.


I heard you need to have 6 meals a day at least to put on sufficient muscle, and if you're looking to loose weight then this might not be a good idea.

This is incorrect. Eating smaller meals but more regularly (i.e. 6 small meals instead of 3 bigger ones) actually promotes fat loss because it increases your metabolism - basically it shows your body that it will get food regularly, so it doesn't need to store fat.


However, if my main is loosing weight, do protein shakes (which counts as 1 meal) harm or prevent fat loss?

Protein shakes, as meal replacements, can actually promote fat loss, not prevent it. Don't have protein shakes for every meal though - it's equally important to have fat/carbs in your diet, in the right quantities.


If not, then is it possible to build a lot of chest muscle (I'm not looking to have big arms really, just a wide chest) by having 3 protein shakes and 3 meals - which equals the recommended amount of 6 meals a day for serious muscle building.

Yes, you can build decent muscle using this approach, providing your workout schedule is right.


Also, if I go to the gym then I'm looking to go twice a day - in the morning for cardio workouts and in the evening for muscle building. The reason being that I'll be too tired for muscle building after doing cardio. If I go on the morning and have breakfast BEFORE my workout, do I still burn efficient amount of fat or does it decrease a lot? I need energy in the morning.

I believe it's recommended to do weight training before cardio, so that your body has more energy for the weights, and less for the cardio (requiring your body to use fat reserves for fuel instead of the glycogen in your muscles).

Hope that helps. I expect Naxis and/or MaxOT might have some advice to offer. :)

Brilliant mate thanks.

Yeah I got mixed up, I meant losing fat not weight.... so it's possible ;)

Couple things:
First of all, muscle does not weigh more than fat. A pound of fat weighs exactly the same as a pound of muscle. A pound is a pound. Where the difference lies is that a pound of fat occupies a great deal more space than a pound of muscle. Muscle is more compact. So, when you lose a pound of fat and gain a pound of muscle you will look thinner even though the weight will have remained the same.
Secondly, it is almost impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, unless you are a total beginner at working out. In that situation you may lose fat and gain some muscle as well since the change from sedentary to a more active lifestyle is great enough for that to happen. It's a freebie that only beginners get.
To gain muscle you have to eat more than your maintainance requirement in order to build muscle tissue.
To lose weight you have to eat less than your maintainance requirement in order to lose fat.
You cannot do both at the same time.

Couple things:
First of all, muscle does not weigh more than fat. A pound of fat weighs exactly the same as a pound of muscle. A pound is a pound. Where the difference lies is that a pound of fat occupies a great deal more space than a pound of muscle. Muscle is more compact. So, when you lose a pound of fat and gain a pound of muscle you will look thinner even though the weight will have remained the same.
Secondly, it is almost impossible to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, unless you are a total beginner at working out. In that situation you may lose fat and gain some muscle as well since the change from sedentary to a more active lifestyle is great enough for that to happen. It's a freebie that only beginners get.
To gain muscle you have to eat more than your maintainance requirement in order to build muscle tissue.
To lose weight you have to eat less than your maintainance requirement in order to lose fat.
You cannot do both at the same time.

Exactly, this is the whole point of my thread.

We need to eat to gain muscle, I already have 3 meals a day, so if I eat ANOTHER 3 protein shakes then it will be 6 meals (protein shakes counts as 1 meal).... therefore, surely I'm eating enough to make me gain muscle and still lose weight because the protein shakes aren't actual meals...... do you understand what I mean because I feel I'm not making myself clear?? ;)

Also, if I do a lot of muscle building and a lot of cardio as well, will it harm the amount of muscle I gain?

I think you don't understand what I said in my post.
Let me rephrase it:
The answer to your question: " Is it possible to gain lots of muscle and lose lots of weight at the same time?" is a definite "NO".

Yes I know that, I meant to put fat instead of weight.

You still don't understand. You cannot gain lots of muscle and lose lots of fat at the same time. Not possible.

Exactly, this is the whole point of my thread.

We need to eat to gain muscle, I already have 3 meals a day, so if I eat ANOTHER 3 protein shakes then it will be 6 meals (protein shakes counts as 1 meal).... therefore, surely I'm eating enough to make me gain muscle and still lose weight because the protein shakes aren't actual meals...... do you understand what I mean because I feel I'm not making myself clear?? ;)

Also, if I do a lot of muscle building and a lot of cardio as well, will it harm the amount of muscle I gain?


You think you will gain muscle because you eat 6 meals, but lose fat because protein shakes aren't "real" meals? :nono:
Like it has been mentioned, you cannot build lots of muscle AND lose lots of fat. For both goals 6 meals a day is best and some heave weight training, the difference lies in how big those meals are and/or how much cardio you do.
To quote Rita:
"To gain muscle you have to eat more than your maintainance requirement in order to build muscle tissue.
To lose weight you have to eat less than your maintainance requirement in order to lose fat.
You cannot do both at the same time."

I have to disagree here, with the RIGHT diet it IS possible to gain muscle mass but lose fat. Losing fat in general is about eating less than maintenance calories - agreed on that. Gaining muscle is not solely achieved by eating more than maintenance calories - you can achieve this by having a higher protein diet, since it is primarily protein that fuels muscle growth. Therefore what I'd suggest for the OP is that they work out a diet schedule that involves lower than maintenance calories, with the majority of the calories coming from a protein-rich source, such as chicken, fish, eggs, and a protein supplement.

I've done this myself in the past, and it certainly seemed to work for me. :)

I have to disagree here, with the RIGHT diet it IS possible to gain muscle mass but lose fat. Losing fat in general is about eating less than maintenance calories - agreed on that. Gaining muscle is not solely achieved by eating more than maintenance calories - you can achieve this by having a higher protein diet, since it is primarily protein that fuels muscle growth. Therefore what I'd suggest for the OP is that they work out a diet schedule that involves lower than maintenance calories, with the majority of the calories coming from a protein-rich source, such as chicken, fish, eggs, and a protein supplement.

I've done this myself in the past, and it certainly seemed to work for me. :)

But the thread starter is talking about LOTS of fat loss and LOTS of muscle gains... I will admit that I gain some muscle while losing fat myself, but to have great successes in both areas at the same time is not realistic.

No, I agree. But stating that it isn't possible is incorrect. You don't NEED greater than maintenance calories to build muscle, providing your diet is geared towards building muscle - i.e. high protein.

The thread starter sounds like a newcomer to exercising, and I would say that the newer you are to exercise, the more achievable it is to lose fat and gain muscle, because your body will generally have an imbalance of muscle/fat ratio - i.e .relatively little muscle and too much fat. It's only once your body has become accustomed to weight/cardio training that you will have a balance of muscle/fat and then need to 'tip the scales' to focus on either bulking (gain muscle mass but also some bodyfat through eating above maintenance calories) or cutting (lowering bodyfat through eating less than maintenance calories, at the expense of some muscle mass (but limiting loss by maintaining protein intake)).

That is my understanding anyway from the research that I've done.

Ok thanks to all.

My main aim is to lose fat, and all I wanted to know was can I do lose fat and gain muscle at the same time because I don't want to waste time on muscle if it's not going to build.

I'm buying protein shakes as well soon, after reading the posts I take it protein shakes are good for losing fat and putting on muscle, so protein intake is worth it.

Also, after reading the posts it sounds as if you can't build up lots of muscle whilst losing fat. But surely you will gain SOME muscle otherwise where would the time on building muscle go?

It seems 50/50 on whether I can lose fat and gain muscle, so maybe a specialist like Naxis can fill me in on it.

How much protein shakes should I take every day?

Oh and what kind of things should I eat that helps gain muscle and keeps burning the fat?

Weight training is good for fat loss, whether you gain muscle or not. So it is not "wasted time".

Furthermore, I think you can get all the protein you need for a regular diet, you don't ned protein shakes for that. Protein shakes are not a "miracle way" to gain muscle and burn fat, they merely supply your body with the "building blocks" to build muscle, just like protein in an ordinary diet would.

I would emphazise lots of protein in your diet, and (it may sound ironic but it's not) unsaturated fats (olive oil, fish, nuts, avocado, etc.). If you stay below maintenance where calories are concerned, unsaturated fats can help you lower bodyfat and gain some muscle.

Ok thanks.

The reason I eat a lot of protein is because I don't really eat a lot of protein foods and as I'm young I don't control the food I get cooked at home, protein shakes are the best thing.

One final thing, what is 'maintenance calories'? It's come up a lot in this thread.

Maintenance is the amount of calories you need to maintain your weight.

If you are overweight, you will lose weight, and anyone who differs is totally wrong. If you have excess fat and begin to work out do weights and cardio you will lose weight. I weighed 240 a month ago, im 228 as of now. Built a lot more muscle but lost a lot more fat. I still have a gut though, got a longs way to go. still going hard though.

Gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time is certainly physiologically possible, but not somthing most people will accomplish constantly.

The question comes down to how does your body build muscle, and how does it burn fat? Both of these processes depend a lot upon your genetics; however, all things being equal, with a smart consistant approach anyone can do it. Muscle grows when it is effectively overloaded which creates a stimulus for muscle growth. Then you need to supply your body with the right amount of protein/fat/carbs at the right times to fuel and encourage hypertrophy (muscle growth). To lose fat you need to increase your metabolism (which is the MOST effective weapon for losing fat) and maintain a calorie deficit. The trick is to make sure you are supplying your body with enough protein at the right times to support hypertrophy, but maintain an overall calorie deficit for the day.

There are a number of things you can do to help promote fat metabolism and encourge muscle hypertrophy. But gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously really boils down to the two points I listed above. It is not common to be able to build "lots" of muscle and lose "lots" of fat at the same time. It takes time and a ton of dedication and consistancy. This is what drives a lot of people to go the drug route. But I definitely don't suggest you do that.

Wow dude thanks.

So what is the calories maintenance for someone who is 5 ft 5.5 and weighs around 58 kg?

Also, you mention you should eat protein at the 'right time', when is the 'right time'?

BMR depends on age. im guessing you're around my age- 14-18? :/ but if so, your BMR (basal metabolic rate-how many calories you burn just by...living) would be about 1500. check out what it is more accurately with formulas onlline.
once you have the BMR, you need to find out how much activity you did (are you sedentary-sitting aorund all day, somewhat active-moving aorund some, walking to classes stuff like that, or very active-construction worker, etc.). You have to add those calories to your BMR. Let's say your moderately active.
Id say about 1800 calories burned throught the day, but thats without exercise. say you burn 500 calories form exercise. Then, the amount of calories you body burned that day was about 2,300. Therefore, if you eat 2,300 calories, you are maintaining your weight. if you eat 1,800, you will promote fat loss. (500 deficit). thi is somewhat what i go by, even though i dont need to lose weight, just to stay lean.
good luck! :)

Ahhh very clear, thanks :)

Basically, in your quest to build muscle and loss fat you need to be consuming protein every 2-3 hours. Over 50% of your calories should come from protein.

Critical times: 1) First thing in the morning 2) immediately before and after workout 3) 30 mins after workout 4) 1 hour after workout 5) Just before 3 hrs has elapsed from your workout 6) 45-30 minutes before bed 7) In the middle of your scheduled sleep time.

These are the most important times to take protein. Aim to consume nearly 1/3 of your entire protein requirements within 3 hours of your workout. Spread the rest of your protein evenly through out the day, making sure to highlight the above times.

Holy, that's a lot.... looks like I'll have to spend a fortune on buying protein all the time :dizzy:

Is so much protein good for me?

Do I eat protein on days I don't work out?

Do I eat protein on days I don't work out?

Yes, of course... Muscle is built when you're resting, and that includes days when you don't work out...

Ok thanks.

People say burning fat is all about your metabolism, some people say you don't burn fat in the first 20 minutes of exercise therefore you should be doing exercise for 40 minutes+ for significant fat loss. Is it okay to go on the treadmill for 40 minutes, then do 10 minutes on bike and 10 minutes on elliptical machine or do you have to do at least 20 minutes on EVERY machine before you burn fat? Surely you've got past the 20 minute stage on the treadmill therefore you don't need to do ANOTHER 20 mins on every machine? :)

Ok thanks.

People say burning fat is all about your metabolism, some people say you don't burn fat in the first 20 minutes of exercise therefore you should be doing exercise for 40 minutes+ for significant fat loss.

Losing fat is about burning calories. You burn calories anytime you exercise, it doesn't have to last more than 20 minutes. You do start to burn fat more after a certain time and less carbs, but that is irrelevant: if you burn carbs while exercising, that leaves your body less carbs later on in the day, so you will burn fat then; if you burn more fat while exercising, that will leave more carbs for your body for later on, so you won't burn as much fat later in the day. Is that a clear explanation? It's all about calories in versus calories out.

Yes very clear, thanks. Someone told me you don't burn fat in the first 20 mins but nevermind ;)