starship
08-11-2006, 01:55 AM
Does No-Flush niacin work as well as regular niacin? Have read several conflicting articles. Was wondering if someone on this board knows the correct answer. Thanks.
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Lenin
08-11-2006, 08:50 AM
I am beginning to think it does, in spite of some ancient literature to the contrary.
What must be considered though for higher doses is the length of time the liver is exposed with these slow formulations.
Thus while one might safely take a daily 2,000 mg. of fast niacin, taking the same 2,000 mg of any slow release formulation might be more problemmatic.
I get a very nice response from 500 mg. SLO-NIACIN that, from what I read, I might not expect from so low a dose of quick-hit instant niacin.
What must be considered though for higher doses is the length of time the liver is exposed with these slow formulations.
Thus while one might safely take a daily 2,000 mg. of fast niacin, taking the same 2,000 mg of any slow release formulation might be more problemmatic.
I get a very nice response from 500 mg. SLO-NIACIN that, from what I read, I might not expect from so low a dose of quick-hit instant niacin.
ARIZONA73
08-12-2006, 12:05 AM
Thus while one might safely take a daily 2,000 mg. of fast niacin, taking the same 2,000 mg of any slow release formulation might be more problemmatic.
I disagree, particularly in respect to no-flush niacin (inositol hexanicotinate). With this form of niacin, higher doses may be required. Just my opinion. Of course, if you are taking a time-release form of nicotinic acid, then I see your point, and would tend to agree with you.
I disagree, particularly in respect to no-flush niacin (inositol hexanicotinate). With this form of niacin, higher doses may be required. Just my opinion. Of course, if you are taking a time-release form of nicotinic acid, then I see your point, and would tend to agree with you.
Lenin
08-12-2006, 10:30 AM
AZ,
I see slow release niacin as exposing the liver to steady long term exposure to nicotinic acid and whether the niacin is slowly released by a slow dissolving microencapsulation or by the slowly dispersing large inositol-niacin complex, I'm sure the liver perceives the blood's constant delivery of niacin in precisely the same way. I see the same for Niaspan in spite of the company's tortured differentiation between "extended" release, sustained release, long-acting or whatever terms are used.
Nicotinic acid is a weak liver toxin, not unlike statins in that regard, and the toxic effect is enhanced by both doseage and exposure time and the exposure time may be even more important than the dose. People have died from high dose niacin. I read about people who were on a dose of niacin with no problems and switched to the SAME doseage in time release and developed liver damage after the switch.
All that said, after bleary eyed research into the continuing horrors of Lp(a), I am going to double my niacin dosage to 1000 mg. slow release taken once, at night. It's either that or high dose ESTROGEN and I think at my age, a change in secondary sex characteristics would look a bit silly.:dizzy:
Anyone on ANY form of niacin in excess of 500 mg./day should have their liver functions, ALT and AST, checked after the first month and then annually!
I see slow release niacin as exposing the liver to steady long term exposure to nicotinic acid and whether the niacin is slowly released by a slow dissolving microencapsulation or by the slowly dispersing large inositol-niacin complex, I'm sure the liver perceives the blood's constant delivery of niacin in precisely the same way. I see the same for Niaspan in spite of the company's tortured differentiation between "extended" release, sustained release, long-acting or whatever terms are used.
Nicotinic acid is a weak liver toxin, not unlike statins in that regard, and the toxic effect is enhanced by both doseage and exposure time and the exposure time may be even more important than the dose. People have died from high dose niacin. I read about people who were on a dose of niacin with no problems and switched to the SAME doseage in time release and developed liver damage after the switch.
All that said, after bleary eyed research into the continuing horrors of Lp(a), I am going to double my niacin dosage to 1000 mg. slow release taken once, at night. It's either that or high dose ESTROGEN and I think at my age, a change in secondary sex characteristics would look a bit silly.:dizzy:
Anyone on ANY form of niacin in excess of 500 mg./day should have their liver functions, ALT and AST, checked after the first month and then annually!
ARIZONA73
08-12-2006, 11:03 AM
Lenin,
I'm not an expert on inositol hexanicotinate, nor do I claim to understand the chemistry as to why it would be much easier on the liver and tend not to raise blood sugar levels in diabetics. All I know is what I've read about it, both from Atkins as well as other sources I've come across.
I'm not an expert on inositol hexanicotinate, nor do I claim to understand the chemistry as to why it would be much easier on the liver and tend not to raise blood sugar levels in diabetics. All I know is what I've read about it, both from Atkins as well as other sources I've come across.
Lenin
08-13-2006, 09:08 AM
Well, I think you know my feelings about any "research" that comes fror Atkins...not worth the paper it's printed on! If Atkins touts anything, it's for one reason and one reason only, they are selling the product.
Atkins loudly condemned caffeine in his diets and then turned round and sold a caffeine based thermogenic aid, Accel. Dishonesty was his middle name.
The only conceivable reason for the niacin of the inositol compound to be less damaging than other time release formulations would be a diminished absorption of the product...but that would be a delivery of a small dose of niacin and thus not to anyone's benefit.
I would try the hexanicotinoate though if I found it cheaper than what I pay for the Slo-Niacin, but I would view it in the same potentially risky way.
Damn, I forgot to take my first dose of 1,000 mg. niacin last night. :D
Atkins loudly condemned caffeine in his diets and then turned round and sold a caffeine based thermogenic aid, Accel. Dishonesty was his middle name.
The only conceivable reason for the niacin of the inositol compound to be less damaging than other time release formulations would be a diminished absorption of the product...but that would be a delivery of a small dose of niacin and thus not to anyone's benefit.
I would try the hexanicotinoate though if I found it cheaper than what I pay for the Slo-Niacin, but I would view it in the same potentially risky way.
Damn, I forgot to take my first dose of 1,000 mg. niacin last night. :D
ARIZONA73
08-13-2006, 09:45 AM
Lenin,
I realize that I find Atkins to be more credible than you do. But nevertheless, Atkins is not the only one who has made claims as to the safety of inositol hexanicotinate. Of course, that does not mean that the sky is the limit, and that you can take as much as you want. All it means is that it is safer. But you're right about the cost. It is considerably more expensive. I also cannot personally vouch for its effectiveness because, like you, I am using plain nicotinic acid instead. Anyway, here is some information about inositol hexanicotinate that you might find interesting.
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I realize that I find Atkins to be more credible than you do. But nevertheless, Atkins is not the only one who has made claims as to the safety of inositol hexanicotinate. Of course, that does not mean that the sky is the limit, and that you can take as much as you want. All it means is that it is safer. But you're right about the cost. It is considerably more expensive. I also cannot personally vouch for its effectiveness because, like you, I am using plain nicotinic acid instead. Anyway, here is some information about inositol hexanicotinate that you might find interesting.
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Lenin
08-14-2006, 11:20 AM
ARIZONA,
That link was extremely interesting but the discussion on hyperlipidemia was weak. She seemed to be talking AROUND the issue.
Basically this is the core of the cholesterol lowering argument:
Dorner and Fischer17 reported statistically significant reductions of cholesterol without side effects in 16 hyperlipidemic patients treated with 400 mg IHN 3 times daily for one month followed by 400 mg 4 times daily for a total of 40 weeks. A study comparing IHN and nicotinic acid on blood lipid levels in hyperlipidemic Buscat rabbits demonstrated a marked reduction in total serum lipid levels at a daily dose of 30mg/kg body weight. The IHN treated group had a 62.2% reduction in total blood lipids while the niacin group demonstrated a 58.3% reduction. Total cholesterol decreased in the IHN treated group by 79.5%, in the niacin treated group by 74.9%.
Couple thoughts: why 3 and 4 times a day dosing with a substance that the article states takes 10 hours to reach peak blood concentration.
But more importantly, the Dorner and Fisher very small study is glossed over with no results given but then the Buscat rabbits (genetically bred for high lipidemia) are touted with resutls of total cholesterol lowering of 75 to 80%, preposterously impossible results if applied to humans. It would mean a person with a cholesteral of 200 could expect quick lowering to a cholesterol of 50 with niacin or IHN.
Basically the discussion is to show that IHN is as beneficial as niacin, which it may or may not be, and that it definitely reduces discomfort from flushing, which is definitely true. But it does little to allay the fears of possible hepatotoxicity.
I DID learn from the article that I must take some extra care because niacin competes with uric acid for kidney excetion:eek: ...and I have GOUT, albeit well controlled, and a small uric acid kidney stone already.
If you find anything that directly addresses the safety of IHN compared to other slow release preparations, I'd love to read them.
Thanks for the informative link.
That link was extremely interesting but the discussion on hyperlipidemia was weak. She seemed to be talking AROUND the issue.
Basically this is the core of the cholesterol lowering argument:
Dorner and Fischer17 reported statistically significant reductions of cholesterol without side effects in 16 hyperlipidemic patients treated with 400 mg IHN 3 times daily for one month followed by 400 mg 4 times daily for a total of 40 weeks. A study comparing IHN and nicotinic acid on blood lipid levels in hyperlipidemic Buscat rabbits demonstrated a marked reduction in total serum lipid levels at a daily dose of 30mg/kg body weight. The IHN treated group had a 62.2% reduction in total blood lipids while the niacin group demonstrated a 58.3% reduction. Total cholesterol decreased in the IHN treated group by 79.5%, in the niacin treated group by 74.9%.
Couple thoughts: why 3 and 4 times a day dosing with a substance that the article states takes 10 hours to reach peak blood concentration.
But more importantly, the Dorner and Fisher very small study is glossed over with no results given but then the Buscat rabbits (genetically bred for high lipidemia) are touted with resutls of total cholesterol lowering of 75 to 80%, preposterously impossible results if applied to humans. It would mean a person with a cholesteral of 200 could expect quick lowering to a cholesterol of 50 with niacin or IHN.
Basically the discussion is to show that IHN is as beneficial as niacin, which it may or may not be, and that it definitely reduces discomfort from flushing, which is definitely true. But it does little to allay the fears of possible hepatotoxicity.
I DID learn from the article that I must take some extra care because niacin competes with uric acid for kidney excetion:eek: ...and I have GOUT, albeit well controlled, and a small uric acid kidney stone already.
If you find anything that directly addresses the safety of IHN compared to other slow release preparations, I'd love to read them.
Thanks for the informative link.
edkal
08-15-2006, 08:51 PM
:) I disagree, particularly in respect to no-flush niacin (inositol hexanicotinate). With this form of niacin, higher doses may be required. Just my opinion. Of course, if you are taking a time-release form of nicotinic acid, then I see your point, and would tend to agree with you.
This may be redundant,but I have been using NO FLUSH Nician for some months now and have had zero side effects and combined with other natural Clo. lowering agents, I have my Cho. down to normat limits.
In my case my liver puts out more of the bad stuff than my body can get rid of and I have been on every satin that has hit the market ending with Lipitor and ending up with side effects with muscle damage to my legs. I am now off that nasty stuff. My Dr. also agrees that I should not take any satin based lipid lowing drugs.
I would advise you to try it and see for yourself. The benifits out weigh the trail. Go for it !!
This may be redundant,but I have been using NO FLUSH Nician for some months now and have had zero side effects and combined with other natural Clo. lowering agents, I have my Cho. down to normat limits.
In my case my liver puts out more of the bad stuff than my body can get rid of and I have been on every satin that has hit the market ending with Lipitor and ending up with side effects with muscle damage to my legs. I am now off that nasty stuff. My Dr. also agrees that I should not take any satin based lipid lowing drugs.
I would advise you to try it and see for yourself. The benifits out weigh the trail. Go for it !!
ARIZONA73
08-15-2006, 11:25 PM
edkal,
I'm happy to hear that you have experienced some success with no-flush niacin, and have not experienced any side-effects. How much are you taking? I believe that dosage requirements can vary considerably among people.
I'm happy to hear that you have experienced some success with no-flush niacin, and have not experienced any side-effects. How much are you taking? I believe that dosage requirements can vary considerably among people.
Lenin
08-16-2006, 08:59 AM
I upped my SLO-NIACIN (polygel formulation) to 750 mg. last night with no untoward effects. Coincidental bit of rare insomnia that was probably unrelated. I am stabbing at lowering my Lp(a) and niacin is the ONLY method that has ever shown even meager results. The only alternative is getting a new mother from whom I inherited that dismal apo(a) gene.
And I guess with the insomnia, I can be SURE that there was no flush...I also took it with 2 aspirin (650 mg.)
I'll try a full gram tonight.
And I guess with the insomnia, I can be SURE that there was no flush...I also took it with 2 aspirin (650 mg.)
I'll try a full gram tonight.
edkal
08-31-2006, 10:06 PM
edkal,
I'm happy to hear that you have experienced some success with no-flush niacin, and have not experienced any side-effects. How much are you taking? I believe that dosage requirements can vary considerably among people.
Sorry for the delay. I am taking 1500mg. per day. One 500 mg. cap. three times a day. I am also on Beta Sitosterol and red yeast rice.
Also stared taking COQ10 which helps some of my muscle problems brought about from Satins.
Hope this helps.:)
I'm happy to hear that you have experienced some success with no-flush niacin, and have not experienced any side-effects. How much are you taking? I believe that dosage requirements can vary considerably among people.
Sorry for the delay. I am taking 1500mg. per day. One 500 mg. cap. three times a day. I am also on Beta Sitosterol and red yeast rice.
Also stared taking COQ10 which helps some of my muscle problems brought about from Satins.
Hope this helps.:)