chj
08-28-2006, 09:03 AM
Hello- Three years ago I went to have my cholesterol checked, as one is supposed to do these days hmm. My doctor then told me that my cholesterol was sky high ( just over 300 ) and if I did not start taking statins it would just be a matter of time before I had a heart attack! He got me on to Zocor 20mg and the first night I woke up and felt I could hardly move and of course thought that this is it the onset of my heart attack.After that I got so worried and started to have horrible panic attacks that went on for about two years, together with feeling really rotten and stiff in the muscles. After reading a lot about statins and cholesterol, I have decide to stop taking them and I must say I feel like a new person. My question really is, who has come to the conclusion that everybody should have a cholesterol of 200. Everybody is different so I think that is quite bizzarre. It seems to me that the powerful drug companies are putting the fear of god in us all and lowering the numbers all the time to get more people on to statins. The food industry with all their margarines and yoghurts that we now have to consume to stay healthy and avoid heart attacks. Why make perfectly health people into patients? Speaking for myself I eat healthily not over weight donīt smoke have normal blood pressure. Is there anyone that could provide us with the true facts about cholesterol? Some reports tells us that having high cholesterol is not all that bad and that people with it lives longer, on the other hand others says the complete opposite. Reports and research that is not funded by drugs companies or vested interests would be fantastic. Any ideas?
Sponsor
NHone
08-28-2006, 03:51 PM
You will find that margarine is one of the worst things that we could ever put in our body.
Mark1e
08-28-2006, 04:53 PM
.... It seems to me that the powerful drug companies are putting the fear of god in us all and lowering the numbers all the time to get more people on to statins. The food industry with all their margarines and yoghurts that we now have to consume to stay healthy and avoid heart attacks. Why make perfectly health people into patients? ....
You hit the nail on the head there. Contrary to popular belief, medicine is not a science. It is a business. And it is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies, with the help of the food industry. I am continually amazed at how easily doctors who have actually graduated from university are taken in by information that doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny.
For alternative insights into the cholesterol issue, google [removed]. People like Mary Enig, Uffe Ravnskov and Malcolm Kendrick provide good non-commercially motivated information on the subject.
Cheers,
Mark ;)
You hit the nail on the head there. Contrary to popular belief, medicine is not a science. It is a business. And it is controlled by the pharmaceutical companies, with the help of the food industry. I am continually amazed at how easily doctors who have actually graduated from university are taken in by information that doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny.
For alternative insights into the cholesterol issue, google [removed]. People like Mary Enig, Uffe Ravnskov and Malcolm Kendrick provide good non-commercially motivated information on the subject.
Cheers,
Mark ;)
Lenin
08-29-2006, 08:40 AM
Hello- Three years ago I went to have my cholesterol checked, as one is supposed to do these days hmm. My doctor then told me that my cholesterol was sky high ( just over 300 ) and if I did not start taking statins it would just be a matter of time before I had a heart attack!
Some reports tells us that having high cholesterol is not all that bad and that people with it lives longer, on the other hand others says the complete opposite.
Though you may have trouble taking statins, it is not logical to assume that thus you do not need them. They are a drug class that WORK well but not everybody can take them and it;s a shame that you cannot.
But the proper response to such a conundrum is NOT to assume there is no problem...that's called DENIAL.
A cholesterol over 300 IS a killer...there are no responsible studies that contradict that, no matter WHO pays for them.
When your doctor told you that you needed a statin he was not lying to you.
Your only choice is to look to harsh dietary control to get more reasonable blood-fat levels. The extreme is a lower calorie, low sugar, vegetarian diet, perhaps even vegan, that almost always will get results...but at a superhuman effort.
There are some no-trans fat margerines that are canola based that are actually beneficial to the heart...the secret is to find a soft margerine without hydrogenated oils. Smart Beat is my favorite (and only 20 cal/Tbsp.), but Smart Balance Light is a reasonable alternative although 3 times the calories. Yoghurt is a good food but don't look for heart benefits.
What you CANNOT do is say:
"I cannot take statins therefore my wretched cholesterol level isn't dangerous." THAT approach is a killer.
Some reports tells us that having high cholesterol is not all that bad and that people with it lives longer, on the other hand others says the complete opposite.
Though you may have trouble taking statins, it is not logical to assume that thus you do not need them. They are a drug class that WORK well but not everybody can take them and it;s a shame that you cannot.
But the proper response to such a conundrum is NOT to assume there is no problem...that's called DENIAL.
A cholesterol over 300 IS a killer...there are no responsible studies that contradict that, no matter WHO pays for them.
When your doctor told you that you needed a statin he was not lying to you.
Your only choice is to look to harsh dietary control to get more reasonable blood-fat levels. The extreme is a lower calorie, low sugar, vegetarian diet, perhaps even vegan, that almost always will get results...but at a superhuman effort.
There are some no-trans fat margerines that are canola based that are actually beneficial to the heart...the secret is to find a soft margerine without hydrogenated oils. Smart Beat is my favorite (and only 20 cal/Tbsp.), but Smart Balance Light is a reasonable alternative although 3 times the calories. Yoghurt is a good food but don't look for heart benefits.
What you CANNOT do is say:
"I cannot take statins therefore my wretched cholesterol level isn't dangerous." THAT approach is a killer.
chj
08-29-2006, 12:05 PM
Hello Lenin, Thanks for your response. I am not saying that high cholesterol is not dangerous. What I dearly would like to find out what the truth is. Cholesterol numbers seem to go down more and more. It is now 200 or under, when is it going to be 180 or under. Who sets these numbers and what evidence have they got. Everybody is different, so I canīt understand that we all should have the same numbers. How can you be so sure that cholesterol of 300 is a killer? Is it something that you have read or are you a scientist or a doctor who is a specialist in this field and independant from any drug companies fundings? I am just trying to find answers so that I can stop worrying. Taking drugs that interferes with your liver and muscles is not very pleasant and therefore I would like to find some kind of solution. If you can point me in the right direction, I would be very grateful.
Granny Fran
08-29-2006, 10:53 PM
It is quite the conundrum, isn't it? My feelings on the subject (and I'm no expert), are that there is something underlying the high cholesterol that triggers the body to accumulate the bad stuff on the coronary artery walls. What I do know is that if you have whatever triggers that, the high cholesterol will kill you if you have the underlying problem. It may be genetic or related to diet or some other unknown cause. Since there is no cure or treatment to date for the underlying unknown cause of illness, you go with your best option.
The American heart association has changed it's stance on the old no-fat diets to limited fat. There has been recognition that cholesteral and fat in the diet is needed, but I don't believe there have been any large studies that have determined what the threshold is, and how diet really contributes to it. I also don't think there have been any large studies that have determined the ideal amount to maintain cell growth, memory retention, etc. It is known as a person ages, their cholesterol tends to rise, but has anyone determined that this is part of the dying process over a lifetime, or if it contributes to extending life or maybe even the quality of life?
I guess it comes down to going with what you feel is right for you based on the current information around. And right now, that option is to reduce cholesterol. Your cholesterol level didn't get up there all by itself - either a slow down in the body metabolism causes it to produce excess cholesterol or the diet is contributing to adding to it. Either way, cholesterol is what causes the plaque to form, regardless of the underlying cause. I'm not a betting woman, so I'll go with getting the numbers down for myself. Especially after a father and brother have died of the disease.
Should the studies be done? Absolutely - there needs to be a lot more research around it all, but until it's there, you're gambling.
The American heart association has changed it's stance on the old no-fat diets to limited fat. There has been recognition that cholesteral and fat in the diet is needed, but I don't believe there have been any large studies that have determined what the threshold is, and how diet really contributes to it. I also don't think there have been any large studies that have determined the ideal amount to maintain cell growth, memory retention, etc. It is known as a person ages, their cholesterol tends to rise, but has anyone determined that this is part of the dying process over a lifetime, or if it contributes to extending life or maybe even the quality of life?
I guess it comes down to going with what you feel is right for you based on the current information around. And right now, that option is to reduce cholesterol. Your cholesterol level didn't get up there all by itself - either a slow down in the body metabolism causes it to produce excess cholesterol or the diet is contributing to adding to it. Either way, cholesterol is what causes the plaque to form, regardless of the underlying cause. I'm not a betting woman, so I'll go with getting the numbers down for myself. Especially after a father and brother have died of the disease.
Should the studies be done? Absolutely - there needs to be a lot more research around it all, but until it's there, you're gambling.
NHone
08-29-2006, 11:30 PM
Cholesterol is not what causes plaque to form.
Mark1e
08-30-2006, 03:22 AM
Cholesterol is not what causes plaque to form.
NHone,
Do you subscribe to the infammation hyposthesis? The logic is certainly compelling. But if inflammation causes plaque build-up, why haven't we seen the development of anti-inflammatory drugs that don't affect cholesterol?
Cheers,
Mark ;)
NHone,
Do you subscribe to the infammation hyposthesis? The logic is certainly compelling. But if inflammation causes plaque build-up, why haven't we seen the development of anti-inflammatory drugs that don't affect cholesterol?
Cheers,
Mark ;)
Lenin
08-30-2006, 10:38 AM
I really think it is as simple as this:
Fat is not soluble in plasma or water so it must be complexed with carrier proteins to dissolve in the blood. This fat protein-complex is loosely called "cholesterol."
Plaque is largely made of waxy fat that, for one reason or another, is deposited in areteies clogging them.
The more of this waxy grease that is circulation for a lifetime the higher the chances of forming these fat clogs.
No circulating fats = No clogs. Few circulating fats = few clogs. MUCH circulating fat for decade after decade = heart disease.
I know that's at a level for a grade-schooler, but looked at in that way nobody could really say anything like: "Why would a high level of circulating fat cause fat deposits in my arteries.?"
It really isn't so different from a person who dumps grease down his drain scratching his head after a couple months and wondering why his drain has clogged. When the plumber says...good, I've cleaned it out (angioplasy) now don't pour much grease in there anymore (statin), he'd be well advised to listen.
chj,
A cholesterol below 200 has been the goal as long as it's been tested, nothing new...at my first test 30 years ago, I was told that but I was at 235.
It IS different for different people: people with heart disease must go much lower than people who "only" had 4 grandparents die of heart disease, or for people who are young with no risk factors. There are several goal levels depending on risk.
The numbers are set periodically by a large panel off "experts", mostly cardiologists...yeas, they might be overtight.
Why do I know that 300 is a killer...because I got heart disease at 265 and everybody I ever met with a cholesterol of over 300 either developed heart disease, HAD heart disease, or fell over dead from heart disease.
Yes, and I am a scientist.
I have pointed you in the right direction to dealing with +300 without statins...a vegan diet. Pick up one of Dean Ornish's books directly addressing reversing heart disease...I liked Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease..like $8 in paperback if you can't find it in your library.
Low choolesterol numbers are achievable with diet, but it's a HARD diet...that's why most choose statins instead.
Fat is not soluble in plasma or water so it must be complexed with carrier proteins to dissolve in the blood. This fat protein-complex is loosely called "cholesterol."
Plaque is largely made of waxy fat that, for one reason or another, is deposited in areteies clogging them.
The more of this waxy grease that is circulation for a lifetime the higher the chances of forming these fat clogs.
No circulating fats = No clogs. Few circulating fats = few clogs. MUCH circulating fat for decade after decade = heart disease.
I know that's at a level for a grade-schooler, but looked at in that way nobody could really say anything like: "Why would a high level of circulating fat cause fat deposits in my arteries.?"
It really isn't so different from a person who dumps grease down his drain scratching his head after a couple months and wondering why his drain has clogged. When the plumber says...good, I've cleaned it out (angioplasy) now don't pour much grease in there anymore (statin), he'd be well advised to listen.
chj,
A cholesterol below 200 has been the goal as long as it's been tested, nothing new...at my first test 30 years ago, I was told that but I was at 235.
It IS different for different people: people with heart disease must go much lower than people who "only" had 4 grandparents die of heart disease, or for people who are young with no risk factors. There are several goal levels depending on risk.
The numbers are set periodically by a large panel off "experts", mostly cardiologists...yeas, they might be overtight.
Why do I know that 300 is a killer...because I got heart disease at 265 and everybody I ever met with a cholesterol of over 300 either developed heart disease, HAD heart disease, or fell over dead from heart disease.
Yes, and I am a scientist.
I have pointed you in the right direction to dealing with +300 without statins...a vegan diet. Pick up one of Dean Ornish's books directly addressing reversing heart disease...I liked Dr. Dean Ornish's Program for Reversing Heart Disease..like $8 in paperback if you can't find it in your library.
Low choolesterol numbers are achievable with diet, but it's a HARD diet...that's why most choose statins instead.
hypatia
08-30-2006, 11:58 AM
Lenin--you should write your own book! You have no idea how much you've helped people like me who rarely post. I put off taking statins for years then arterial plaque was discovered in recent testing and you and my dr. convinced me it's time for the statin
.....Patty (who has gone from 268 TC to 176 on l0 mg Crestor)
.....Patty (who has gone from 268 TC to 176 on l0 mg Crestor)
chj
08-30-2006, 12:07 PM
Hello everybody, Thank you all for your input. Much appreciated. It is easy to see why there is so much confusion, everybody has their own theory and experiences.:dizzy: I have read reports by Uffe Ravnskov, Malcolm Kendrick, Mercola, Sally Fallon, Duane Graveline etc to name but a few,and read a book "The cholesterol con" by Anthony Colpo who is backing up his claims with over a thousand references. Interested to know what you think of them.They all claim that cholesterol does not cause heart disease. Probably a stupid question, but was it your cholesterol alone that caused your heart attack Lenin? I donīt know if my cholesterol is genetic or not. My father had a stroke at 55, but was under a lot of stress at the time which could have caused it. I eat very healthily, always fresh food, lovely wine, not too much! and keep a low carb diet.Donīt smoke have normal blood pressure etc etc can hardly do much more. Oh dear!!!
NHone
08-30-2006, 03:46 PM
NHone,
Do you subscribe to the infammation hyposthesis? The logic is certainly compelling. But if inflammation causes plaque build-up, why haven't we seen the development of anti-inflammatory drugs that don't affect cholesterol?
Cheers,
Mark ;)
Yes, I believe that inflammation is the key. That is the one variable that can be linked to all heart disease. High Cholesterol cannot. There are a lot of anti-inflammatory drugs on the market now from all major drug companies. Cholesterol lowering medications provided drug companies with a "new" market. I believe that many doctors and researchers decided that cholesterol was the problem, therefore, the drug companies marched in that direction. My opinion..and that of many others...is that the many people got on the cholesterol bus...and were driven down the wrong road.
Do you subscribe to the infammation hyposthesis? The logic is certainly compelling. But if inflammation causes plaque build-up, why haven't we seen the development of anti-inflammatory drugs that don't affect cholesterol?
Cheers,
Mark ;)
Yes, I believe that inflammation is the key. That is the one variable that can be linked to all heart disease. High Cholesterol cannot. There are a lot of anti-inflammatory drugs on the market now from all major drug companies. Cholesterol lowering medications provided drug companies with a "new" market. I believe that many doctors and researchers decided that cholesterol was the problem, therefore, the drug companies marched in that direction. My opinion..and that of many others...is that the many people got on the cholesterol bus...and were driven down the wrong road.
Mark1e
08-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Yes, I believe that inflammation is the key. ..... There are a lot of anti-inflammatory drugs on the market now from all major drug companies. ......
Studies suggest that prolonged use of NSAIDS increase the risk of heart attacks. And apparently Aspirin masks the effects of mild heart attacks, providing no significant reduction in mortality. So where does that leave us? The benefits of anti-oxidants are still inconclusive. But I guess I will have to increase my red wine consumption, just in case. :wave:
Cheers,
Mark
Studies suggest that prolonged use of NSAIDS increase the risk of heart attacks. And apparently Aspirin masks the effects of mild heart attacks, providing no significant reduction in mortality. So where does that leave us? The benefits of anti-oxidants are still inconclusive. But I guess I will have to increase my red wine consumption, just in case. :wave:
Cheers,
Mark
NHone
08-31-2006, 12:22 AM
Fish oil does seem to help with the inflammation. Anti-oxidants do not seem to help with previous damage...but with future damage. More red wine is the best idea I have heard in a long time....
chj
08-31-2006, 04:40 AM
Oh yes, Iīll drink to that:) It is interesting that the inflammation theory is finally getting through and also the oxidation of cholesterol that also seems to play a big part. It will be interesting to see what develops. Many reports says that cholesterol actually protects against infection and those with low cholesterol are more at risk. It will be of great comfort to those people taking statins and who is suffering terrible and dangerous side effects from them if there could be an alternative. Of course, there has been a lot of big investments in statins, so it may take a while before this will happen.It seem that for preventative measures supplements of anti oxidants Q10, fish oil ,vitamins B6 B12 and folic acid could help protect from inflammation. Also to stay well clear of hydrogenated fats which is found in many things from margarines cookies to ice cream.Sad state of affairs when you have to read food labels before you buy anything. The stone age diet seem to be the most logical to me!
Lenin
08-31-2006, 09:47 AM
Oh yes, I´ll drink to that:) It will be of great comfort to those people taking statins and who is suffering terrible and dangerous side effects from them if there could be an alternative.
It would be wonderful if it were so but if it is NOT so then grabbing at straws with one useless health food store product after another offers nothing but expensive false hopes.
I KNOW that statins are tough for some people to take and I count myself lucky that I can take Lipitor. I feel bad for people who cannot take them but yet need them. BUT because an effective agent cannot be taken does NOT mean that there is another effective agent that can.
All these heart disease medicaments are from a time when there were no statins and NO effective means of avoiding heart disease except perhaps lowering blood pressure (with marginal success.) There will always be con men willing to push useless crap down our throats to fill the vacuum and asuage our fears.
Any doubter need only look at the thousands of "cures" for an incurable disease like arthritis...last of which was the gigabillion dollare business peddling glucoisamine and chondroitin but that's only one step removed from selling copper bracelets and weeekends sitting in abandoned radium mines...a trip to Lourdes was as useful.
Yes statins can hurt, yes a vegan diet works...but that doesn't mean there is necessarily a good third choice even if the quacks of this world will happily sell you 100 more in your desperation.
Anti-oxidation??? There's another word for that...DEATH! If anything stops oxidation in the body you will be dead before you can say OOPS! Peddling "anti-odidants" is voodoo medicine.
chj,
My cholesterol of 265 was far from the only cause of my heart disease. It included an HDL of 28 giving me a "delicious" ratio of 9.5 :eek: I also had a mother die of congestive heart failue and a horribly high genetic Lp(a) level. So no, Lipitor hasn't answered all my prayers but were it not for taking it for 8 years, I'm pretty sure I'd have died, almost certainly Id have needed bypass surgery. Between the Liipitor and niacin and a lower fat diet, I've gotten my HDL to 40 and my total cholesterol to 126... and I FEEL good.
I am as anti-drug as the next guy next guy, probably more so (read any of my screeds against antihypertensives), but these statins WORK well...and nothing else does!
It would be wonderful if it were so but if it is NOT so then grabbing at straws with one useless health food store product after another offers nothing but expensive false hopes.
I KNOW that statins are tough for some people to take and I count myself lucky that I can take Lipitor. I feel bad for people who cannot take them but yet need them. BUT because an effective agent cannot be taken does NOT mean that there is another effective agent that can.
All these heart disease medicaments are from a time when there were no statins and NO effective means of avoiding heart disease except perhaps lowering blood pressure (with marginal success.) There will always be con men willing to push useless crap down our throats to fill the vacuum and asuage our fears.
Any doubter need only look at the thousands of "cures" for an incurable disease like arthritis...last of which was the gigabillion dollare business peddling glucoisamine and chondroitin but that's only one step removed from selling copper bracelets and weeekends sitting in abandoned radium mines...a trip to Lourdes was as useful.
Yes statins can hurt, yes a vegan diet works...but that doesn't mean there is necessarily a good third choice even if the quacks of this world will happily sell you 100 more in your desperation.
Anti-oxidation??? There's another word for that...DEATH! If anything stops oxidation in the body you will be dead before you can say OOPS! Peddling "anti-odidants" is voodoo medicine.
chj,
My cholesterol of 265 was far from the only cause of my heart disease. It included an HDL of 28 giving me a "delicious" ratio of 9.5 :eek: I also had a mother die of congestive heart failue and a horribly high genetic Lp(a) level. So no, Lipitor hasn't answered all my prayers but were it not for taking it for 8 years, I'm pretty sure I'd have died, almost certainly Id have needed bypass surgery. Between the Liipitor and niacin and a lower fat diet, I've gotten my HDL to 40 and my total cholesterol to 126... and I FEEL good.
I am as anti-drug as the next guy next guy, probably more so (read any of my screeds against antihypertensives), but these statins WORK well...and nothing else does!
NHone
08-31-2006, 03:08 PM
Sometimes we don't always see things as they are...we see things as we are...
chj
09-01-2006, 08:06 AM
Lenin Hi, What do you refer to when with your statement you say useless health food store products and con men willing to push useless crap down our thtoats? Do you refer to the drug companies as con men? After all many people have suffered enourmus health problem after trusting them, not only with statins I may add.Are they not selling "miracel cures" that are costing lives? Or are you refering to CO10 which is now a recognised vital supplement you should take in combination with statins. Even the drug companies are accepting this and are thinking of including that in the tablets. Or are they jumping on the band wagon again? Many questions. I am sure the debate will go on for a while yet before a true answers will be found. According to some guide lines cholesterol at 126 is far too low! Also low fat diets are now being reported as bad for your health! True or false? I am very pleased for you though that you are o.k and feeling good. Maybe goes to prove that we are all different and that a high or low level of cholesterol is o.k for different people. I might have a reading of 260 and am perfectly healthy with that and on the other hand I could have a reading of 140 and get very ill.:dizzy:
Lenin
09-01-2006, 10:44 AM
chj,
The HUGE difference between the drug miracles and the health food store miracles come down to ONE FACT. The drugs are exhaustively well tested and PROVEN to be effective without doing too much damage. Yes some clinkers can get through, some data is fudged and some doctors are crooked...but there are crooks in every business. MOST of the data is trustworthy.
For the vitamin store "miracles," only a paperback by some well-paid quack and extensive advertising are needed, there is NO need to prove efficacy and safety and efficacy is almost NEVER even tested...just pronouunced "ex Cathedra!"
That second situation is what I call a "con-job."
By the time the "miracle" is fully debunked $$millions$$ have been tossed down the drain and the con-men are onto the next paperback/advertising/intenet hype con.
DRUGS are almost always effective...but they have side effects, think of antihypertensives and statins.
SUPPLEMENTS are amolst always INEFFECTIVE, but they have very few side effects. Think of a glass of water.
If you're treating a hangnail option 2 is great; but if you are treating heart disease, the safety of that glass of water will get you NADA!
chj,
You are coming from the position that: "Statins hurt me therefore I must do the OTHER effective thing." Have you entertained the possibility that there might be no OTHER effective thing?
It's not unlike a person with inoperable, terminal cancer or progressive Alzheimer's saying there MUST be an herb I can take...and of course there will ALWAYS be someone there to sell something to you and a paperback touting the curative properties of pashmaliwandallamia seeds. :angel:
There may NOT be such an herb in reality, but there will be a scam to take advantage of your desperation.
Would you like a share in the profits of the jillion copper bracelets sold in the Twentieth Century to cure arthritis? Carter's Little Liver pills anyone? Geritol for that "iron poor blood? Shark grease for those hemmorhoids???"
The HUGE difference between the drug miracles and the health food store miracles come down to ONE FACT. The drugs are exhaustively well tested and PROVEN to be effective without doing too much damage. Yes some clinkers can get through, some data is fudged and some doctors are crooked...but there are crooks in every business. MOST of the data is trustworthy.
For the vitamin store "miracles," only a paperback by some well-paid quack and extensive advertising are needed, there is NO need to prove efficacy and safety and efficacy is almost NEVER even tested...just pronouunced "ex Cathedra!"
That second situation is what I call a "con-job."
By the time the "miracle" is fully debunked $$millions$$ have been tossed down the drain and the con-men are onto the next paperback/advertising/intenet hype con.
DRUGS are almost always effective...but they have side effects, think of antihypertensives and statins.
SUPPLEMENTS are amolst always INEFFECTIVE, but they have very few side effects. Think of a glass of water.
If you're treating a hangnail option 2 is great; but if you are treating heart disease, the safety of that glass of water will get you NADA!
chj,
You are coming from the position that: "Statins hurt me therefore I must do the OTHER effective thing." Have you entertained the possibility that there might be no OTHER effective thing?
It's not unlike a person with inoperable, terminal cancer or progressive Alzheimer's saying there MUST be an herb I can take...and of course there will ALWAYS be someone there to sell something to you and a paperback touting the curative properties of pashmaliwandallamia seeds. :angel:
There may NOT be such an herb in reality, but there will be a scam to take advantage of your desperation.
Would you like a share in the profits of the jillion copper bracelets sold in the Twentieth Century to cure arthritis? Carter's Little Liver pills anyone? Geritol for that "iron poor blood? Shark grease for those hemmorhoids???"
chj
09-01-2006, 11:52 AM
Lenin- I suppose with clinkers you mean Baycol that killed a lot of people before it finally was taken off the market. I must say I donīt put a lot of trust in some of the drug companies testmethods, and where do you draw the line "without doing too much damage"? I also donīt put much trust in some of the health foods industries claims. Yes, it is true that a lot of so called herbal remedies is not controlled.Mind you the pashmaliwandallamia seeds and shark grease does wonders!;) And then we have the food industriy, well donīt get me started. For me it is a personal choice to stop taking statins. I am not burying my head in the sand and hope that if I take Carters little liver pills that all will be well. All I am looking for is to somehow get to the bottom of this cholesterol question,which seems to be difficult,and find some unbiased answers. I tend to go with the inflammation theory which to me seems logical. I would like you to read Anthony Colpoīs book "The great cholesterol con" and see what you think. He has over a thousand references from medical journals and research in the book to back up what he writes about. Just a thought.:wave:
Mark1e
09-01-2006, 06:24 PM
... but there are crooks in every business ....
You are dead right there. And the more money is involved, the bigger the crooks are. It costs $800+ million dollars to get a new drug to the market. So big pharma have some pretty hefty vested interests to protect. To suggest that they are a bunch of crooks is perhaps a bit harsh. But it goes almost without saying that pharmaceutical companies manipulate their incredibly powerful public relations machine to protect their investments and the massive cashflows they generate.
Consider for a moment that 60% of medical papers are funded directly or indirectly by big pharma. To believe that you are getting good unbiased info here is naive. "Mainstream" thought is heavily influenced by big pharma. And any thinking that is not supportive of big pharma interests is marginalised as quackery. If you are not part of the system, you simply don't get a look in. It is an exclusive, closed and very cozy little club. Anyone who doesn't suspect the integrity of what comes out of it needs their head read!
My wife works for a medical publisher that employs a team of medical writers who write drug evaluation articles. They only write articles that are commisioned by drug companies. Publishing of medical journals adds credibility to the articles. But it accounts for only 10% of revenue. The big money comes from the 100s of thousands of reprints that are ordered by the drug companies for distribution to doctors all over the world.
Clearly the business model demands that articles highlight the benefits and downplay the shortcomings of these drugs. The writers know what they have to do if they want to get paid next month. And they dutifully produce glowing reviews of the drugs in question. Problem is that doctors end up believing in this biased view of the drugs they are encouraged to prescribe. Well-meaning GPs don't have the time to question all this information. They simply have to go with the flow. So they aren't crooks either. But the patients are being shortchanged nevertheless.
I don't think any of the pharma executives, scientists or medical gurus or doctors are crooks. But I really don't see that a system like this can be relied on to serve the best interests of the patient.
Cheers,
Mark ;)
You are dead right there. And the more money is involved, the bigger the crooks are. It costs $800+ million dollars to get a new drug to the market. So big pharma have some pretty hefty vested interests to protect. To suggest that they are a bunch of crooks is perhaps a bit harsh. But it goes almost without saying that pharmaceutical companies manipulate their incredibly powerful public relations machine to protect their investments and the massive cashflows they generate.
Consider for a moment that 60% of medical papers are funded directly or indirectly by big pharma. To believe that you are getting good unbiased info here is naive. "Mainstream" thought is heavily influenced by big pharma. And any thinking that is not supportive of big pharma interests is marginalised as quackery. If you are not part of the system, you simply don't get a look in. It is an exclusive, closed and very cozy little club. Anyone who doesn't suspect the integrity of what comes out of it needs their head read!
My wife works for a medical publisher that employs a team of medical writers who write drug evaluation articles. They only write articles that are commisioned by drug companies. Publishing of medical journals adds credibility to the articles. But it accounts for only 10% of revenue. The big money comes from the 100s of thousands of reprints that are ordered by the drug companies for distribution to doctors all over the world.
Clearly the business model demands that articles highlight the benefits and downplay the shortcomings of these drugs. The writers know what they have to do if they want to get paid next month. And they dutifully produce glowing reviews of the drugs in question. Problem is that doctors end up believing in this biased view of the drugs they are encouraged to prescribe. Well-meaning GPs don't have the time to question all this information. They simply have to go with the flow. So they aren't crooks either. But the patients are being shortchanged nevertheless.
I don't think any of the pharma executives, scientists or medical gurus or doctors are crooks. But I really don't see that a system like this can be relied on to serve the best interests of the patient.
Cheers,
Mark ;)
NHone
09-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Not exactly crooks in the manner we usually think; however, white collar (or coat) crooks, who are looking at the bottom line for their companies. I believe that a point will come when doctors will no longer prescribe medications...they will only diagnose. The medications will be prescribed by Pharm D's from a diagnosis by a doctor, (m.d. D.O. etc.) Most medical doctors have a very poor chemistry background and are not at all skilled in bio-chemistry.
ARIZONA73
09-01-2006, 09:49 PM
And don't ever ask a doctor for any advice about supplements. You'll get nowhere! You can probably get better advice from your local neighborhood plumber!
Lenin
09-02-2006, 11:22 AM
Or the pimply 15 years old working at GNC? :D:D "Yeah, for cancer you should take sarsaparilla root and echinacea...both on sale this week!"
I want a system like Mexico (or Egypt) has, where all drugs are available for the asking and FAR cheaper. My prescriptions for myself are always what I ultimately get...why should I have to go through the rigmarole of "convincing" my doctor?
Come to think about it, I diagnose AND prescribe...I'm wasting my money on all these middlemen.
All that said...biased drug tests are FAR better than none at all as in the case of supplements.
Supplements are not legally allowed to make health claims above and beyond their vitamin value. So the BigVita (and BIG it is!) gets/buys/bribes a huckster to make the claims in a stupid paperback. "Hey, WE never said it cured cancer and heart disease...that was 'Dr.' Mercola."
THAT scam should be illegal.
I want a system like Mexico (or Egypt) has, where all drugs are available for the asking and FAR cheaper. My prescriptions for myself are always what I ultimately get...why should I have to go through the rigmarole of "convincing" my doctor?
Come to think about it, I diagnose AND prescribe...I'm wasting my money on all these middlemen.
All that said...biased drug tests are FAR better than none at all as in the case of supplements.
Supplements are not legally allowed to make health claims above and beyond their vitamin value. So the BigVita (and BIG it is!) gets/buys/bribes a huckster to make the claims in a stupid paperback. "Hey, WE never said it cured cancer and heart disease...that was 'Dr.' Mercola."
THAT scam should be illegal.
ARIZONA73
09-02-2006, 01:33 PM
I tend to go with the inflammation theory which to me seems logical.
I agree. Of course it seems logical. But don't forget, when you're dealing with mainstream medicine, you're dealing with a bureaucracy which is largely run by a bunch of nitwits. For decades they've been feeding us all this propaganda about cholesterol, and telling people to eat all these stupid low-fat diets. And where has it got us? Nowhere! Twenty years of pushing statins down our throats, and where has it got us? Nowhere! Heart disease remains the number one killer. But I guess the doctors, surgeons, and drug companies are happy. It's a real cash-cow bonanza for them! Well, let them say whatever they want. I don't care. I've stopped listening to their nonsense a long time ago. If they want to go on frightening people with their maniacal obsession with cholesterol, then let them. But I'm telling you that it is a futile one. It's a lot like shoveling crap against the tide!
I agree. Of course it seems logical. But don't forget, when you're dealing with mainstream medicine, you're dealing with a bureaucracy which is largely run by a bunch of nitwits. For decades they've been feeding us all this propaganda about cholesterol, and telling people to eat all these stupid low-fat diets. And where has it got us? Nowhere! Twenty years of pushing statins down our throats, and where has it got us? Nowhere! Heart disease remains the number one killer. But I guess the doctors, surgeons, and drug companies are happy. It's a real cash-cow bonanza for them! Well, let them say whatever they want. I don't care. I've stopped listening to their nonsense a long time ago. If they want to go on frightening people with their maniacal obsession with cholesterol, then let them. But I'm telling you that it is a futile one. It's a lot like shoveling crap against the tide!
chj
09-02-2006, 01:56 PM
How often do we not see big advertisment for miracel drugs from the drug companies? And how come that drug companies can make health claims that does not hold water legally? or canīt they? but they do. They are just as bad as each other. How many paperbacks do you think are backed and financed by the pharmaceutical companies in order to sell their products? That is why it is SO important to find research that is totally unbiased in their reports. These institutions, be it pharmacautical or others, are putting peoples lives at risk with untrue claims and promises.Many products, of course, are very good and effective, but some that are released on the market show very little regard to the patients for the simple reason of profit.I have read so many reports of people suffering terrible side effects from statins and I feel that unless it is absolutely vital ,for what ever reason,it should be the last resort. Soon, or perhaps already, statins will be available over the counter ( more profits ) and unless you have a cholesterol reading at 200 or under you are at deaths door according to some and you are put on statins. If that is not deception, I donīt know what is.
NHone
09-03-2006, 07:53 PM
Statins are available over the counter in Europe.