The person I'm helping has three problems. High blood sugar {Fasting 185 score average}, high cholesterol, and neuropathy pain in the legs and feet.

The doctors arn't very helpful other than telling the person
there is no cure for nerve damage and they only offer
pain meds to manage life. The pain meds are harsh,
vicodin, neurontin, morphine, paxil. To compound the situation, statin drugs have been taken for 2 years. Last,
the person is vitamin B-12 deficient. Without the morphine, the pain level scores a 9 of 10 {very bad}.

I went on a personal quest using the internet to find answers to help resolve some of these issues. The simple
fix was to correct vitamin B-12 deficiency by consuming 20mg - 40mg B-12 Methlycobalamin sublingual daily for a few months. The internet revealed this to me, not the doctors. I've seen first hand positive results from this. The person has a < 200 score on B-12, now the score is > 1000
plus the mood has risen. The doctor was thrilled as the patient wounldn't need B-12 injections.

Next on the list is to tackle the blood sugar levels so the
patient doesn't need insulin injections twice a day, plus
I have a theory that in order for your body to heal, the blood sugars need to be much lower as high blood sugar is
not good for the nerves.

During this dietary supplement quest, there is much talk about certain pills that help reduce blood sugar, manage
cholesterol and many of these pills have been used to
try to solve other medical problems, overal these pills seem to be a good thing for general body maintenance. For treatments, higher doses are used. Why not try them?

Here's what I got the patient to try;

Vitamin category
* Multivitamin {no extreme dosages}
* B-50 complex
* Biotin, 15 mg daily
* Benfotiamine, 450mg daily {special form of thiamine}
* Pantethine, 900 mg daily
* Vitamin C, 2000 - 3000 mg daily
* Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin sublingual, 20 - 40 mg daily

Mineral category
* Magnesium Aspartate, 600 mg daily
* Chromium, 400 mcg daily

Amino Acids
* Acetyl-L-Carnitine (Arginate Dihydrochloride), 2000 mg daily

Antioxidants
*Alpha Lipoic Acid: R-Dihydro-Lipoic Acid, 450 mg daily
*Coenzyme Q10 {yeast fermented type}, 200 mg daily.

Essential Fatty Acids
* 2000 mg fish oil
* 2600 mg borage oil

Herbs
Cinnulin PF {cinnamon}, 450 mg daily.

*** Results of the effort? ***

Blood sugar is monitored 3 to 4 times a day and blood
pressure monitored a few times per week. Cholesterol
levels are checked once per week.

The first day the pills were consumed, the fasting
blood sugar score was 156. It never ever dropped under 160 in the past two years of taking insulin.

Within days, the blood sugar levels dropped like a rock,
hitting a low of 65 one morning. The patient was frantically
eating candy as it was too low and the body shaking.

The patient consumes two types of insulin daily, fast acting and long acting. The person no longer uses fast
acting insulin and only uses long acting. After charting
progress for 2+ weeks, where the blood sugars are rising,
falling, simulatenously trying to figure out the best insulin intake, the patient has reduced her long acting insulin in
1/2 and the fasting scores are looking good at the end of
week 2.

The 10 day moving average blood sugar score is now
125, that includes 3 to 4 blood readings per day, not just
fasting. I'm estimating the average as ~ 225 daily, 100 point drop in just under 3 weeks of doing
diet pills, not to mention the huge reduction in insulin consumption.

It's too early to tell how the cholesterol levels are doing,
or pain managment, plus the patient went off the statin drugs 2 weeks ago. Only time will tell.

I'm dissapointed in doctors, why do we have to do their
job? Or, how come they don't believe in alternative medicines that gave this patient 'instant results'.

I'm happy I went on this quest for the person, imagine
not taking insulin, or taking a small amount, controlling your blood sugars much
better to help your body heal using good diet pills and maybe the rest
of the puzzle will fall in to place.

I've since found a few more pills to add to the regiment and found alot of intersting herbs.
The long term goal is compete pain reduction by letting the body heal.

Wow this is great information, and right in line with what I've been reading. I just read and requested this info in the other thread you replied to me in.

Thank you so much for sharing this information!!:bouncing: :) :bouncing:

I made a correcttion to my first post after talking to the patient.

Before diet pills, the fasting blood scores taken for 3 weeks
were averaging 185. The patient remembers the daily
scores going as high as 325 peak, 225 - 250 midday.

The data we've been collecting is the whole day data, not
just fasting scores. Typically, in morning {no food}, then before
lunch, then 2-3 hours after lunch, then 11 pm at night. This gives
an idea on how the body is reacting.

Right now after a few weeks of taking diet pills, the 10 day moving daily average score is
125. We are estimating a 100 point drop in blood sugar score, and so far insulin
consumption is down, estimating 75% - 90% less insulin consumption than before
the diet pill regiment.

Also, understand this is a byproduct of doing neuropathy
treatments. In other words, the diet pill regiment was
optimized to treat the neuropathy to reduce pain by
healing the body, the bonus was the hope that the blood sugars
would drop, and they did, very fast, moreso than we'd ever imagine.

The ultimate goal is to have no pain. Diabetics, type 2
with no pain, may benefit from the higher dose diet pill
regiment provided that they monitor themselves daily,
take blood sugar scores a few times per day and log
the results in a spreadsheet. Take blood pressure scores
too. Who knows, maybe a lower dose works?

I can't say for sure which pill or pills offers the biggest
impact on blood sugar scores or maybe it's the sum of
all pills working together that helps, I don't know.

I'm thinking, fix the problem first, then optimize later
by trying to find out which medicine is the big contributor.

It's not cheap buying diet pills so you can optimize later if
you see results.

Great ! Bravo, You have said some thing that makes sense. Truly useful & surely helpful. I salute you for sharing the experience & will always remain apreciating you if you kindly continue to post guide me & people like me, suffering already with Diabetes & more because of either Ignorance about the need & informations or expertise guidance & experienced positive results.
Please keep it up the Good Work, Noble gesture & helping mood for sake of humanity & service to Mankind.
Do post more information & personal experiences. God Bless you. Do "Takecare"

Before diet pills, insulin schedule for 1 year was.

Morning:
44 units fast acting
18 units long acting

Before Dinner:
18 units fast acting

Before Bed;
20 units long acting

The insulin intake after starting the diet pills has been
changing daily to compensate for the blood sugar drops.
We don't know what the final insulin instake will be with this
diet pill regiment, the chart seems to indicate that the downward trend
is ending and flattening out. Right as of this moment, the insulin intake will be;

Morning;
15 units long acting

Before Bed;
15 units long acting

62 units of fast acting insulin is no longer consumed, but
two smaller doses [15 units] of long acting is still required.

Lets see where the blood scores stabilize at in the next week
and how much insulin is needed to maintain the score.

Here is the blood sugar chart. Ignore the dates shown. These are just data points,
3 to 4 readings per day for the past couple of weeks.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/chart.jpg

On the left side, scores of 185 is the morning fasting level average, the 225 score is midday average,
and peaks at 265 during the night. These scores are not logged, just scores the person has from memory.

The scores of 187, 163, 173, 201, 207 were fasting scores *before* diet pills. Those were recorded.
The first day diet pills were consumed, before dinner a score of 156 was recorded, this was a sign of good
things to come.

The score thereafter, are morning, midday, and before bed, sometimes two scores are done in the morning,
very early and before lunch. The 10 day moving average line gives you smoothing to see the trend. This
moving average line indicates that the regiment is leveling out but alot of insulin has been reduced during
the past two weeks, as you can see from the chart, the person crashed three times because the scores were
so low, thus insulin had to be reduced.

Next month, we start herbs to add to this regiment.

Edit: typos

FYI;

The insulin schedule had to be changed because the dietary supplements made a big impact on blood sugar
scores. It's taken a while to figure out the new insulin
regimen.

The morning/night insulin intake was changed to;

*************
11 AM - 1PM {sometime in this 2 hour window};
15 units fast acting insulin

11 PM;
20 units long acting insulin
*************

Reason: Very little to no food is consumed in the morning
and the problem area was after lunch and through
the evening. The long acting insulin taken around noon
time wasn't able to cope with the peaks as well as the fast
acting insulin. The fast acting seems to work pretty
well until 11 PM as the peak seems to come at night.

The goal is to hit a score of 80 in the morning {7AM} and
no more than 150 peak during the evening.

Herbs were added to the regimen last week. We haven't
noticed anything major yet.

:jester:

Edit cc to units.

Just as an aside, I think that you mean units, and not cc when you talk about the insulin dosage. We here on the board know what you mean, but if you get a young doc in the hospital and mention those amounts, you friend just might get 100 times the amount of insulin that is needed.

Great for you both to get things under better control by being proactive. Keep up the good work.

Cora

Fixed the typos :jester:

So far, this regimen is working well.

The cholesterol tryglycerides seem have dropped alot,
perhaps from the 300 range to the 170 range.

The rest of the cholesterol levels aren't good, so
I'm doubling the fish oil to 4 grams daily to see what happens. :)

Lets be proud of the Great Work, & Apreciate the Kind Gesture from "THYLANTER", that he has kept informed about the Fatnastic Progress. Surely his work & action needs, fullest Admiration & Support. We always welcome & keen to read such posts.

May I request "THYLANTER" to make a summary Report of his Actions with the simple list of Items to take as the necessary Doze, with Time & other instructions. Should it be possible to Pin point the necessity of each doze to have the specific result, Then It will be very handy for all of us to take advantage of his test research / experiment.

While, With all sincereness the said Work needs encouragements & support from each of the Readers & Members of this board, I do request each of us to join me in encouraging this kind of Post, to avail the immense benefits & enjoy a better state of health.

Please come forward & Do "Takecare" of everybody's health.

I uploaded a new blood sugar chart.
http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/temp/chart.jpg

The data collection started in September 2006 to today {11/21/06}.

How do you read this chart?

Before dietary supplements, my friend was taking
at least 3 blood sugar readings daily for about 2 years.
Those readings were not recorded on paper, only mental
notes were taken.

My friend claims that the morning fasting scores were
averaging 185, no less than 165. Mid-day scores were
averaging about 225, and daily peaks were averaging 265.
Without averaging, there were peaks in the 320 range.

When starting the dietary supplements {vitamins, minerals, amino acid, antioxidants, omega-3, omega-6},
it took only ~5 days for my friend to 'crash' to a score of
65 as you see in the chart.

This was a signal that insulin intake had to be reduced
and trying to find the right dose took a while to stabilize
the new baseline.

What is interesting is that it only took 2 weeks to form
a new blood sugar baseline, an average score of 135.

This was 3 blood sugar scores daily. As time passed, my
friend got sick with the flu and didn't eat much, didn't take
much insulin, and didn't take much dietary supplements.
You can see the moving average rise in the middle of the
chart during this time period, and you see some high peaks
exceeding 200 blood sugar score.

After recovering from the flu, the schedule resumed and
the trend went back to it's baseline. We started to
collect 5 blood sugar readings daily, 7am / 11am / 3pm / 7pm / 11pm to get a better daily average.

The Herb regiment was started and over a period of weeks
the moving average only dropped 10 more points, from
~ 135 to ~125. This tells me that my friend has reached
maximum insulin sensitivity from the original dietary supplements and the herb regiment isn't doing much.

This doesn't mean that herbs don't help, rather we don't
know if herbs would offer the same results if the vitamin
regimen as abandoned.

The new insulin schedule is;

11 am - 1pm; 15 units fast acting insulin
11 pm; 20 units long acting.

Towards the end of the chart you see a small up trend.
This is because my friend didn't take one of those
two insulin doses, because the blood score was too low
either at lunch time or at night time.

If my friend didn't have neuropathy and bad cholesterol
levels, then we would now scale back on the vitamin and
herb regimen to better pin point which supplements
offer the biggest reward. But that is not the case, we
need to continue the regimen to help with neuropathy
and to improve the cholesterol imbalance. I won't know
which dietary supplements helped the most, but I still
think the fish oils and alpha lipoic acid in higher dose
really made an impact. This is my gut feeling, but I still
think a person should take their daily multivitamins, minerals, etc.
also and eat proper.

I talked to my friend, there is a family history of bad
cholesterol and cardiovascular problems, so we will
be starting more fish oil soon. I think I might want to
get aggressive. Original dose was 2 grams, now we started
4 grams per day, and may increase to 6 - 8 grams daily
for a few months.

I have another friend who is in perfect health, but has a family
history of cardio problems and this person is taking 6 - 10 grams
of fish oil {300 EPA/200 DHA} daily for 1 year and reports no problems.
This testimonial plus other cyberspace data has motived me to boost my
friends fish oil intake for at least a few months, then get
a new hospital lab done to see the blood work scores.

Small Update.

The blood sugar control is working like a charm.
Based on my data, I think we have figure out which
supplements work better for my friend than others.
Probably in a few months, we will start to eliminate
some of the herbs from the regimen while still tracking
the blood scores as I have a feeling that some supplements
are not needed and we can save some money by optimizing
the regimen.

Insulin was 100 units a day before dietary supplements,
with supplements it dropped to 35 units a day, now
there it seems to work well with 25 units a day.

Average daily blood sugar score is 125, fasting under
100 typicial, daily peaks no higher than 160.

Fish oil was raised from 2 grams daily to 8 grams daily
for 2 weeks.

With 2 grams of fish oil for a couple of months,
trigycerides dropped from ~300 to the 170 range.

Raising the fish oil to 8 grams revealed some interesting
results in just two weeks.

Our home cholesterol checker reveals a nice drop in
total cholesterol, early estimate place my friend in
the 200 range, plus or minus 15, about a 50 point
drop on average. The higher intake of fish oil seems
to help alot. We are using a fish oil brand that yields
400 EPA, 200 DHA per 1000 mg capsule.

Tryglycerides are closer to the 115 range with the
extra fish oil intake.

We are doing another experiment and taking 10 grams
up from 8 grams for a couple of weeks to see the effects.

Bottom line. Dietary supplements are working on blood sugar control and cholesterol control without consuming
harsh medicines that doctors like to prescribe.

You have to be wise when you shop for supplements
because prices do vary alot.

Interesting update.

After a few months of the big dietary supplement regimen,
my friend took 2 weeks off by not taking any herbs and
has taken 1 week off the big regimen and instead took only
these pills for a week;

// light regimen once daily //
1. Multi-vitamin
2. B-50 complex
3. 100 mg magnesium
4. 8 grams fish oil

This is a light regimen to give the body a break from
the big regimen.

Results are interesting. The blood sugar trend has stayed
the same and no blood sugar spikes either.

When you take that much fish oil it's recommended to also take fat soluble vitamin E to reduce the likelihood of the fatty acid from turning rancid in the body. just curious, what kind of herbs is he taking?

Bravo ! Great We all are Proud of You at the Desk of "Thylanter". Keep it up, and Let all your Results be available to this Healthboard - To Serve Humanity, Help the Millions suffering and Let God reward your Noble acts.
I surely appreciate you & Pray for your Happiness & Prosperity. May God Bless you to continue your Work with More Success & Satisfaction.
Needless to Say, There must be many, Wishing You every Best, They just could not write, But you must go on writing.
Regards
"Takecare"

When you take that much fish oil it's recommended to also take fat soluble vitamin E to reduce the likelihood of the fatty acid from turning rancid in the body. just curious, what kind of herbs is he taking?

Originally, the regimen didn't have herbs, just vitamins,
minerals, amino acids and anti-oxidants. Immediately the
blood sugar level dropped alot within days. Then later, an herb regimen
was started, herbs that are said to help with lowering of blood sugar, but I
didn't see any real evidence that it helped, maybe because the body
chemistry already reached it's maximum insulin sensitivity?

The only way to test how effective the herbs might be would be to reset
the experiment and start the herb regimen first to see if they do help, but
we can't time travel back in time to see - hee hee

Herbs were;
~1200 mg fenugreek
~1000 mg ginseng
~300 mg Cinnulin PF

Other herbs not listed were for circulation and cholesterol
control.

Thanks for these tests and positive results....

hello please can i ask you refer to your blood readings with out the decimal points and its gets confusing is it different in england then in your neck of the woods my avrage sugers is about 6.3 and wen ive bin eating junk it goes up to about 17.5

Hi, The Great Person at the Desk of "Thylantyr" How are you ? We are eager to your Up Dated Results & Progress. Please Oblige with your Posting -that keeps many Faces More Healthier & happier.
Keep the Lights to Show the Path. We Wish & Pray for you.
"Takecare"

Blood sugars are in control. Insulin intake has trended
lower and seems to have stabilized at 17 units daily,
way better than 100 units before taking dietary supplements plus having a very high blood sugar level. Experiment with supplements, they may work out well for many people.

It would be nice to reduce the 17 units down to zero, but
only time will tell. Maybe in a year we can see what happens. Body chemistry is a variable and unique for everyone.

Right now, I'm tracking cholesterol levels, but it takes
longer to form a solid conclusion. My friend stopped
taking the statin drug a few months ago, cholesterol rises,
but when supplements were started, the TC score has
trended down and the trigs are much lower. HDL has actually trended lower, but this is one variable that needs to be raised. We are doing niacin experiments to see if it helps.

There are alot of small rewards seen from taking dietary supplements. They counter some of the 'quality of life' health problems seen when taking pain management pills.

Lot of benefits from vitamins, minerals, fish oils, amino
acids, anti-oxidants, herbs, etc.

:blob_fire

Hi, The the Great Man at the Desk of "Thylanter". Hope you are fine. We like to hear from you about your Noble Work. Its More than a Month - NO HEAR FROM YOU ? Pls. Oblige with your Noble & Useful Work & the Results. Once in Life time your kind of Work is seen & Shared on this Great Health Board - Which Surely & Certainly proved to be of Immense Use , Benefits & real in Theraputic Values.
You deserve to be Admired & appreciated. Your initiative needs Rewards & Recognitions. I & all of us SALUTE you & look forward for more Input & Results from you.
May God Bless You. Pls. Do "Takecare"

*Update*

My friend got the hospital labs done.

Before taking dietary supplements.

Sept. 2006
hb1ac = 7.4%
Insulin intake = 100 units daily [for two years, 2004 - 2006]

Dietary supplements started thereafter.

Feb. 2007
hb1ac = 6.6%
Insulin intake = average 17 units daily.

Normal hb1ac range is 4% - 5.9%.

4.5 month vitamin experiment.

Case closed, vitamins are working. :blob_fire :jester: :cool:

Yes, With due Regards & Salute to the Great Man at the Desk of "Thylanter",
May I request For the Present Progress with complete Summery of his efforts, Results & Conclusive Advice & Guidance to all of us. We are keen to see your Success & Services are Rewarded & Admired. Your Work & Interest is Surely of Immense Value & Use to the Millions of Diabetics around the World.
Wishing & Awaiting to Read More about your Work & Praying for You & Your Success - "Takecare"