Hello all,

I have been back to see my doctor after approximately 1 month on Angrogel. To catch some up, here were my starting numbers:

Total testosterone 266 (350-890)
Free testosterone 81.3 (47.0-244.00)
SHBH 12 (13-71)
TSH 1.837 (.350-5.5)
T4 1.10 (.89-1.80)
FSH 4.6 (1.4-18.1)
LH 1.7 (1.5-9.3)
Prolactin 8.0 (2.1-17.1)
PSA 1.46 (.10-4.00)

After starting Androgel 1% 5 mg per day, here are my total and free number:

Total testosterone 813 (350-890)
Free testosterone 264 (47.0-244.00)
Estaridol (E4) 52.7 (<50)
PSA 1.5 (.10-4.00)

I talked with my doctor (technically she is a NPR) and due to the almost too low LH and the low Testosterone, she ordered an MRI of the Pituitary. I also asked her to check my cortisol level as I have many symptoms of Cushings Syndrome including that hump on the back of the neck (wife said it was due to bad posture) and bad stretch marks and the fat face (but I am fat so that could be asymptomatic). Between the cortisol check during my next blood work and the MRI, I should be able to rule out Cushings one way or the other.

Well, that's it. I feel a good bit better now and am slowly coming around. The partial ED and performance problems are gone....I am 20 again. The mood is slowly coming around, I have fewer negative thoughts and less depression. Confidence is slowly coming back, albeit slowly. I understand that many of the symptoms might take two-five months to go away but that by five months or so, I should have any improvements on board.

Thanks for all the help, if you see anything in here you would like to comment on let me know.

Thanks,
New

Glad to hear things are getting better. Your Estradiol a little high. Try something simple and easy to lower it like DIMplus by Natures way, one capsule a day. You might also want to take 50 mg of zinc a day. The ideal range for Estradiol is 20-30. Much over 35 and you have to start paying attention to it.

Hope this keeps up for you.

For your next blood tests ask for a Red Blood Cell test. Some men get too many red blood cells at high levels of testosterone. That makes the blood too thick. Sounds like you mave have a good doc.

Hey guys....thanks.

I am concerned about that Estiradol number but I can't find much about what too much Estiradol will do for men. Can you supply?

I have my MRI for the pituitary on the 30th....time will tell.

If I do have too many Estiradol, what medications fix that and what are their side effects?

Also, going forward, I am going to ask for the following checks each time they draw blood (total T, Free T, Progesterone, Estiradol, Cortisol, PSA)....did I miss anything for maintenance while on T replacement?

Thanks,
OC9

Too much estradiol can ruin your libido, cause panic attacks, make your emotional, cause sore nipples and breast growth (gynomastia). There is also some thought it is the real reason men get prostate cancer. The prostate cancer theory does make sense because it is said all men will eventually get prostate cancer if the live long enough and it is also true all men having increasing aromatase and hence increasing estradiol as they age. I think the estradiol to testosterone ratio is also quite important for many of these issues. I'm sure there are other things high estradiol can cause I'm forgetting or don't know about.

Natural ways to lower it include losing fatty weight, limiting alchohol to 2 drinks a day or less, taking 50 mg zinc a day, taking DIM plus by Natures Way. Rx's include arrimidex which is very expensive and has side effects but I am not familiar with them. You can look it up on the web though.

Youre doing great as far as how high your T is on 5 gm of gel.

Try the Dim+ for a month or so & see if the E2 lowers. If not you may have to try Armidex 1/2mg a couple time a week alony with the Dim+

Thanks guys, I will try the zinc and the DIM plus.

I have a check in another three months and will ask them to recheck the estiridol [sic?].

I can tell a difference in mood more now. Things that used to throw me into mini depressive moods for a day or so (mom has emphysema, son is being a bear in school, sister is a pill junkie) no longer do. I am still mad about them and I am still upset by them but now instead of thinking "I just can't handle this", I think of ways to make the situations better. Much more under control. Much more at peace and much more in control of my being. Still improvement to be made but livable if it never gets better.

I have no question in my mind that when I last voluntarily changed jobs and just lost all concentration, had a major depressive episode, and had debilitating panic attack and couldn't eat was because of low T.

I will update this post after my MRI on the 30th with what they find. I would like to know that I don't have any tumors on the pituitary. If there were tumors, then maybe they could fix them....but even that sounds like a slow recovery process.

I am good right now and I owe it all to my sprained ankle and a lowly nurse practitioner with an endo background. I am not quite 18 and ten feet tall and bulletproof but I am probably 25 and thornproof....but improving every day! :D

OC9

please keep us posted on MRI. i suspect a similar situation, going in for initial tests tomorrow morning. thanks to suggestions here, getting e2 and everything else.
I have a theory,- Most ED cases are due to T defficiency, Most cases of T deficiency are secondary, reason is Pitutory tumor (non functional). so rather than getting TRT, better option is treating the tumor. especially for someone under 50.(i am 41)

please keep us posted on MRI. i suspect a similar situation, going in for initial tests tomorrow morning. thanks to suggestions here, getting e2 and everything else.
I have a theory,- Most ED cases are due to T defficiency, Most cases of T deficiency are secondary, reason is Pitutory tumor (non functional). so rather than getting TRT, better option is treating the tumor. especially for someone under 50.(i am 41)


Green,

I definitely will.....in fact, they called today to reschedule it to Wednesday because it will require contrast injection.....oh hoodily boo! :D I hate needles.

I am torn....tumors (especially given my cushing symptoms) could mean surgery. But surgery means that I won't have to do Testosterone the rest of my life and perhaps I might even feel better. But if it is cushings, there is no perfect and permanent solutions.

Time will tell but I am really tired right now, despite the normal levels of Testosterone. The problem is that I have a lot of stress right now with my son having problems in second grade (behavior and making friends) and my job is really unfulfilling. So I keep having to remind myself that a normal level of T won't make me Mr. Happy....just Mr. Normal. But I can say that these things aren't causing depression like previously.

I will keep you updated for sure!

New

please keep us posted on MRI. i suspect a similar situation, going in for initial tests tomorrow morning. thanks to suggestions here, getting e2 and everything else.
I have a theory,- Most ED cases are due to T defficiency, Most cases of T deficiency are secondary, reason is Pitutory tumor (non functional). so rather than getting TRT, better option is treating the tumor. especially for someone under 50.(i am 41)

My doctor says that very few cases of ED are caused by tumors.

Thank you guys for your openess. I was having alot of the same symptoms as cloud9 and often felt like cloud 0. My doctor started by talking about depression but in all that I had read it sounded more like low T. She then in the same visit prescribed the cialis route. I won out in the end and she did a blood screen. Turns out, my thyroid is great cholesterol has lowered and blood sugar is lowered, both of which I have been working on for some time without meds. My T was 146 and I am only 38. She just prescribed androgel, so we will see.

Thank you guys for your openess. I was having alot of the same symptoms as cloud9 and often felt like cloud 0. My doctor started by talking about depression but in all that I had read it sounded more like low T. She then in the same visit prescribed the cialis route. I won out in the end and she did a blood screen. Turns out, my thyroid is great cholesterol has lowered and blood sugar is lowered, both of which I have been working on for some time without meds. My T was 146 and I am only 38. She just prescribed androgel, so we will see.


Best of luck to you....we have some great people on this board that helped. My doctor...NPR to be exact...came from an endo office so she is down with all of this.

You should fell an almost immediate badda bing in your love life...I went from 60 to 25. In fact, I hadn't felt sensation from the prostate during sex for some time...slowly went away so I forgot it was supposed to have sensation. The first time after a couple days of Androgel and things happened I didn't expect. It was great. I am still waiting on some of the mood enhancers and energy to kick up and the weight loss but I have a lot going wrong in my personal life right now so my energy levels are kaput...with reason.

Give it a few months with the androgel and apply it after a shower....works best that way. I take hot showers so I tend to sweat when I put it on but I find standing under a fan helps to dry it faster.

Hang in there, you are on the way back.

New

Best of luck to you....we have some great people on this board that helped. My doctor...NPR to be exact...came from an endo office so she is down with all of this.

You should fell an almost immediate badda bing in your love life...I went from 60 to 25. In fact, I hadn't felt sensation from the prostate during sex for some time...slowly went away so I forgot it was supposed to have sensation. The first time after a couple days of Androgel and things happened I didn't expect. It was great. I am still waiting on some of the mood enhancers and energy to kick up and the weight loss but I have a lot going wrong in my personal life right now so my energy levels are kaput...with reason.

Give it a few months with the androgel and apply it after a shower....works best that way. I take hot showers so I tend to sweat when I put it on but I find standing under a fan helps to dry it faster.

Hang in there, you are on the way back.

New

Thanks for the vote of encouragement. For the longest time I have felt like I was slowly losing it. I read your initial stories and banter with Hayfarmer and instantly it was like you were inside of my head. I don't have the kids to worry about but all the rest I could associate with. I could never explain it: the occasional depression, the unfinished projects, the need to sleep mid day, mid morning, early evening. The quick temper flare, the peace to dispair feelings, and of course the ever increasing "occasional" ED. The worst thing of all is when my wife would ask me are you sure it is not me. That one hurt. I had no way to prove to her it was not. So one day I talked to a friend, who similar to you, went to the doctor about something and ended up getting someone else in her office who suggested, after listening to him that he might have low T. Sure enough after some simple tests, he is not on TRT (I am going to link him to this site)

Long story short, I started to wonder what low T was all about and searched this wonderful www thing and low and behold all the things I read pointed to low T.

I called the doc and sure enough, 146 at 38 years old! Not expecting a miracle but I knew surely there had to be more to life than becoming my dad and becoming a couch potato. I can't tell you how many undone projects are at my house. And how much my business is being affected by this. I look forward to the day when life becomes a little more "normal" and I feel like a man again. :)

Thanks for the vote of encouragement. For the longest time I have felt like I was slowly losing it. I read your initial stories and banter with Hayfarmer and instantly it was like you were inside of my head. I don't have the kids to worry about but all the rest I could associate with. I could never explain it: the occasional depression, the unfinished projects, the need to sleep mid day, mid morning, early evening. The quick temper flare, the peace to dispair feelings, and of course the ever increasing "occasional" ED. The worst thing of all is when my wife would ask me are you sure it is not me. That one hurt. I had no way to prove to her it was not. So one day I talked to a friend, who similar to you, went to the doctor about something and ended up getting someone else in her office who suggested, after listening to him that he might have low T. Sure enough after some simple tests, he is not on TRT (I am going to link him to this site)

Long story short, I started to wonder what low T was all about and searched this wonderful www thing and low and behold all the things I read pointed to low T.

I called the doc and sure enough, 146 at 38 years old! Not expecting a miracle but I knew surely there had to be more to life than becoming my dad and becoming a couch potato. I can't tell you how many undone projects are at my house. And how much my business is being affected by this. I look forward to the day when life becomes a little more "normal" and I feel like a man again. :)

Have you started taking it yet? You might feel an immediate relief of the ED.

My wife wasn't so indirect and accused me of not being attracted to her....she isn't known for support in troubling times! :D

Give it time before you judge results but sexually you should be back quickly.

New

@jinL. "Doctor knows best", hehe. Seriously,it may be true (that ED because of pituitory tumor are rare) but surprisingly there is comparitavely less research on low T problem.(the cause of it).
Anyways, i am waiting for my report and secretly hoping that it is low T. feeling exactly like simbamojo01. and if T and other hormones are "normal" dont see any other way how i can improve.
Oh, how much i want to "be back" and kick some A.

I have read of (on other forums) very few people who have adenoma's but it is definitely something to check and also you rule out empty sella syndrome at the same time with the MRI. Most people with secondary fall into the category of "unkown" cause.

simbamojo01, you say you dont have children. Just be aware that while on androgel alone you will be more or less infertile as you testicles will shut down and shrink. Add HCG to the mix to avoid this. In fact for some people HCG alone works. I mention this in case you might ever want children and just to make sure you are aware of the effect on your testicles of the T replacement.

Have you started taking it yet? You might feel an immediate relief of the ED.

My wife wasn't so indirect and accused me of not being attracted to her....she isn't known for support in troubling times! :D

Give it time before you judge results but sexually you should be back quickly.

New

Cloud, unfortunately, not yet. I went on Friday evening to pick it up and when they told me that it was going to be $220 I about had another health problem!

Turns out, that my insurnace company needed prior authorization so they needed to talk to the DR. before approving.

Sorry to hear about your wife. My wife continues to be supportive although I think that somewhere inside she feels like it is her. I really don't have any other way of letting her know it is not her, other than hopefully after the trt and things get back to normal then all should be well in that area.

20's I'm not sure she is ready for that though. But I would be happy with late 20's seems like that is about the time it started to be an on and off again problem. Though lately, it has been an off and less on problem.

Cloud, unfortunately, not yet. I went on Friday evening to pick it up and when they told me that it was going to be $220 I about had another health problem!

Turns out, that my insurnace company needed prior authorization so they needed to talk to the DR. before approving.

Sorry to hear about your wife. My wife continues to be supportive although I think that somewhere inside she feels like it is her. I really don't have any other way of letting her know it is not her, other than hopefully after the trt and things get back to normal then all should be well in that area.

20's I'm not sure she is ready for that though. But I would be happy with late 20's seems like that is about the time it started to be an on and off again problem. Though lately, it has been an off and less on problem.


Just warn her, better times are a comin! :D

I swear, if I looked like Brad Pitt, I would go on tour! ;)

I am sure you will have almost immediate relief from the ED or ED'ish problems. Mine was almost instantaneous!

As for the wife, I dunno. She isn't really secure so, she is what she is!

OC9

I have read of (on other forums) very few people who have adenoma's but it is definitely something to check and also you rule out empty sella syndrome at the same time with the MRI. Most people with secondary fall into the category of "unkown" cause.

simbamojo01, you say you dont have children. Just be aware that while on androgel alone you will be more or less infertile as you testicles will shut down and shrink. Add HCG to the mix to avoid this. In fact for some people HCG alone works. I mention this in case you might ever want children and just to make sure you are aware of the effect on your testicles of the T replacement.


Hay Farmer, thank you. I had a vasectomy at 29 so the kids wouldn't be a question mark in the future. As for the shrinking testicles that is worrisome but I think that if all of the negative symptoms of low T go away, then it will be worth the trade. Or at least, I will continue to tell myself that.

By-the-way, what is HCG? I am googling it right now, but some of the words you use (obviously very educated in this topic) I am uncertain of. But I welcome your input. Seems like you have gone through the gammit on this.

Hayfarmer,

Do the testicles shrink automatically or is this only in the case of the extreme supplimintation as in the case of body builders?

Just warn her, better times are a comin! :D

I swear, if I looked like Brad Pitt, I would go on tour! ;)

I am sure you will have almost immediate relief from the ED or ED'ish problems. Mine was almost instantaneous!

As for the wife, I dunno. She isn't really secure so, she is what she is!

OC9

OC9, sounds like you're having or have had fun since the beginning! If we all looked like him there wouldn't be any challenge to life. At least in the get any woman you want catagory.

Sorry again about the wife, that seems like a topic for another board, hope something breaks for you soon. Marriage shouldn't have to be that way.

Cloud,

I think I remember reading that you were heavy and that you were looking forward to or were actually, loosing weight being on the TRT. Can you confirm this? I am currently at 240 after being 268 and going down to 238 last summer. Then back up to 256 before this summer and very hard to get the interest in working out again and doing all that is necessary to loose the weight. Seems like nothing I do will take me below the upper 230 range. So, most of the time I figured why bother!

Also, I have always been rather small muscled and figure as I said before, maybe this has been a problem for me longer than I know. My brother didn't have to do much of anything to gain muscles. Me, I spent the entire summer last year in the gym and did not gain much, infact, what gains I was able to achieve I have since lost through, lack of desire partly because of the effort I was putting out and not seeing any results.

I read that fat gain was one of the many things that go along with low T. As well as muscle loss. So I am hoping that Mr. T and I can do something about these two areas as well as the afore mentioned Mr. Ed. before I need to call Dr. Freud and go see Jenny. :jester:

HCG is Human Chorionic Gonadotropin. It is almost identical the the LH your pituitary sends to tell the testicles ot make more Testosterone. When you are on T replacement of any kind your pituitary will sense that you have enough T in you system and will stop sending LH. This will cause the testicles to stop making T.....this is what is meant by the testicles "shut down". At this point they start to shrink. There is no way around it while on T replacement. You can't just take a small amount of T replacement because it will do you no good. You pituitary will sense it and will send less LH so your testicles will make less and you will end up right where you started. So you basically have to take enough T to completely replace what your testicles should be making if everything was working right.

However, if you take HCG it will tell the testicles to make T just like LH does. They will not shut down and shrink. Depending on why your T level is low you may only need HCG or you may have to mix taking HCG and T replacment at the same time like I do. I feel more normal taking both at the same time then I did on T replacement by itself.

Cloud,

I think I remember reading that you were heavy and that you were looking forward to or were actually, loosing weight being on the TRT. Can you confirm this? I am currently at 240 after being 268 and going down to 238 last summer. Then back up to 256 before this summer and very hard to get the interest in working out again and doing all that is necessary to loose the weight. Seems like nothing I do will take me below the upper 230 range. So, most of the time I figured why bother!

Also, I have always been rather small muscled and figure as I said before, maybe this has been a problem for me longer than I know. My brother didn't have to do much of anything to gain muscles. Me, I spent the entire summer last year in the gym and did not gain much, infact, what gains I was able to achieve I have since lost through, lack of desire partly because of the effort I was putting out and not seeing any results.

I read that fat gain was one of the many things that go along with low T. As well as muscle loss. So I am hoping that Mr. T and I can do something about these two areas as well as the afore mentioned Mr. Ed. before I need to call Dr. Freud and go see Jenny. :jester:


Nothing yet but I haven't been exercising like I should have. I have a LOT going on in life right now that is draining my energy. Likewise, my Estrogen level was just above the top of the range and might have climbed so I actually hit a wall in most departments. Ability is still there but libido is gone....of course, there are reasons for that.

However, I don't think that my problems solely exist with Testosterone and I have my MRI tomorrow provided I can lay still in that contraption long enough and deal with getting stuck with a needle. But I am wondering if I don't have cushings because I have a definite hump on my neck and can't lose weight (time will tell if the T makes me lose weight). Case in point is that three years ago I went up to my Dad's house and cut down a lot of trees...I mean I was working on a steep hill with a heavy chain saw all day long (10 plus hours). Yeah, I was tired but I kept going and had the stamina and energy to do so. Contrast that with last Saturday, I was finally successful this season while deer hunting. My Dad came to help me retrieve the deer and take care of it.....I was so completely worn out and exhausted in the middle of it, he was fine. He is as large or larger than I am and 30 years older.

It is too early to see the weight loss from what I read on the net. I have noticed that my biceps are larger and better defined and I have gained some weight (muscle, I hope). From everything I ready, the weight loss after T replacement generally happens around 5 months after starting. Time will tell.

As for my weight, yes I am heavy. But to look at me, you would never guess my true weight. It is like my family is made of steel bones or something. My son has a friend that is about his size height and build. I will pick them up to throw them into the pool, for instance, and I can hardly get my son in the pool. The other boy, I almost threw him over the pool. I dunno.

OC9

OC9, sounds like you're having or have had fun since the beginning! If we all looked like him there wouldn't be any challenge to life. At least in the get any woman you want catagory.

Sorry again about the wife, that seems like a topic for another board, hope something breaks for you soon. Marriage shouldn't have to be that way.

If only we could look like Brad Pitt! :D

Yeah, we got a lot going on primarily in the raising of our second grade son and that is taking it's toll. It looks like we are going to have to get him evaluated for ADD/ADHD because he just refuses to act right at school. Goofing in the hallways, not heeding directions, sometimes trouble finishing classwork, problems making friends, etc.

We are actually okay but my wife gained a good bit of weight and felt ugly which is why the sudden onset of these problems made her think that. She has since apologized for that accusation.

OC9

The best way to determine if your testosterone is low is to have it tested.

You can not just think it is OK. If you have a lot of body fat then it converts your testosterone to estradiol E2. This upsets the hormone ratio. The extra E2 make you sluggish, loss of muscle mass, gain more fat, lose sex desire & performance, & grow boobs. It then has lowered your testosterone by converting it to E2 before your body can use it.

I make E2 without conversion, so I have to fight it always.
I make very little testosterone, so I have to have twice a week self injections of Testosterone & HCG.

Get & keep a copy of your test results & ranges for your records.

I just thought I would let you know that I start tomorrow with the gel. After a couple of days of phone tag with my pharm., my Dr., and my provider I have obtained the gel. I will let you know.

I just thought I would let you know that I start tomorrow with the gel. After a couple of days of phone tag with my pharm., my Dr., and my provider I have obtained the gel. I will let you know.

Best of luck, just remember that the thinner you spread it the better it will work.

I put it on my shoulders (back of them), on my upper arm, and on my love handle areas to ensure maximum absorbsion. Also, think about your timing of application. You need to allow it about 5-6 hours to absorb before taking a shower and you need to shower before any activities that would result in you rubbing skin with your wife for an extended period of time (that'd be snuggling while watching Leno, right? :D NOT ANY MORE!). Shower before any skin to skin contact.

I found that putting mine on first thing in the AM helps me absorb well.

Best of luck, buddy. My MRI got cancelled AGAIN...damned doctors office didn't follow up with my insurance and the insurance said they didn't get the paperwork (which I believe). The scheduling twit called and left me a message, I called her back minutes later and she acted like she didn't know who the hell I was.

Let us know how you do!

OC9

Hello everyone. I have been on the gel for about a month now. I went for the first about 25 days felt great. Started to notice that I was experiencing a drop off about mid afternoon. I talked to the doc and she put me on the 7.5 which I have noticed a is great for the attitude and no more mood swings, no more lack of energy. However a little decline in the bedroom from where I was just one week into taking the gel. Which I guess could have been the plecebo effect. I am hoping and still waiting for the twenties to re-appear so will update when I know more. Supposed to go for the blood test for the liver and cholesterol in two months.