tinymom05
12-29-2006, 01:01 PM
i am having kind of a dilemma about ABA therapy and my kids. My daughter is 3 and my son is 2 years. My son is diagnosed with PDD and destructive behavior disorder, and my daughter has autism. My son does look for attention and he is very demanding and will throw himself on the floor and scream and kick his legs and shake until he get's what he wants. He gets in my daughters space in front of the therapists and my daughter starts getting aggressive with her brother just putting her head against his and he get's picked up by the therapists and he sits there are smiles while i am grabbing my daughter getting her to calm down and he thinks it's funny. The therapists think i should put her in time out which i refuse at times i would rather just hold her legs and tell her no cause he provokes her sometimes in my opinion. I think if i put her in playpen for time out that she would just stim and not understand and my son will just smile and laugh. He is a character as well he will scream real bad but once the therapist comes in the room after using our bathroom he is all smiles, he seems very smart for his age. Everyone that comes in baby's him which i understand he is small but they say he is all smiles and my daughter is the bully they make it out to be. Like the one OT thought cause my daughter carries around her game pieces and my son was looking at the toy that my daughter had the pieces to that my daughter automatically was keeping those toys from him and she took one of those pieces out of my daughter hand and gave it to him and she is all in tears. Then today my son had this play food and my daughter is screaming cause he had both toys and i said well it was ok when the therapist took the toys from my daughter cause my son was looking at the toy though my daughter get's upset and my son doesnt have to share with her. I know he is smaller but he is very aware of everything i do and has to see everything and when i am making a drink he has to have his first and then when i am making a drink for his sister he throws himself on floor though he already has a drink of his own. He doesnt act this way around other people until he gets comfortable it's like he is making hisself look very innocent then different story when the therpists leave. he will bend his legs for certain therapists and will eat for only one therapist then at home wont eat for the in-home therapists and myself. even his preferred foods he will let himself starve until i give him a drink, he demands what he demands and he will do whatever it takes until i give in. the therapists said put my foot down and i did and he let himself starve and i cant let that happen. he is happy only when i give him what he wants. But the kids get along pretty good when no one is around, but he knows what sparks his sister and he does it when others are around. but yet i get the "she is gonna go after her brother" "she doesnt like this picture cause her brother is in it" they make comments like this and it hurts me cause we have no idea how the children feel or what not but they are making my daughter out to be miserable etc. i just dont know what to do but therapy is stressful with both kids. My son is starting ABA soon and they are even thinking of letting the same therapist take care of my son for one day which i am thinking not to do. i cant figure out my son though he is jackle and hyde most of the time and in stores he hates when i stop the cart and screams and kicks but yet when someone comes around he knows like my gram he is all smiles until she leaves. he will put his head back in the cart on my daughter and annoy her and she gets mad and looks like a mean sister and he just smiles and laughs then i remove her from cart and he is crying. I cant figure out if he is trying to interact and doesnt know how to or what. If i say "no' to him about something he just wont eat for me or he goes and does something i have told him no about. anyway sorry to ramble on just kind of in a dilemma and not sure how to approach the therapies.
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Ms-Trixi
12-29-2006, 02:07 PM
So sorry that therapy is stressful for you. Try not to worry about what the therapists think. My 4-year old autistic son gets therapy at our house. The therapists used to bring a box full of toys when they came and my not quite two-year old would run over to them and have a fit. They acted like he was a brat. I think any toddler would react that way. It kind of hurt me, but then I just let it go.
Your kids are so young too. Sometimes my 4-year old provokes my 2-year old, and sometimes my 2-year old messes with my 4-year old. I try to leave them alone and let them work it out. I encourage them to share, but I think that young children (autistic or not) have a hard time sharing.
If your daughter and son are getting good therapy, and making progress, then just don't worry about what the therapists think (I don't always agree with mine either, but she is great with my son). If you don't feel like the therapist is doing a good job with your children, and they are not making progress, then look into replacing the therapist.
You know your children best!
Prayers and Good luck,
Linda
Your kids are so young too. Sometimes my 4-year old provokes my 2-year old, and sometimes my 2-year old messes with my 4-year old. I try to leave them alone and let them work it out. I encourage them to share, but I think that young children (autistic or not) have a hard time sharing.
If your daughter and son are getting good therapy, and making progress, then just don't worry about what the therapists think (I don't always agree with mine either, but she is great with my son). If you don't feel like the therapist is doing a good job with your children, and they are not making progress, then look into replacing the therapist.
You know your children best!
Prayers and Good luck,
Linda
tinymom05
12-29-2006, 02:21 PM
its just that they obsess over my daughter not liking her brother or sharing and going after him and that is even in the treatment plan to put her in time-out for doing this to her brother. i do agree i need to tell my daughter "nice hands" nice legs etc and hold her down if need be but putting her in time-out if he is provoking her is just reinforcing his behavior in my opinion. but if it was just comments every once in awhile i wouldnt mind but the supervisor (BSC) that comes here is when it gets worse cause my son goes more around my daughter which bothers her and they both end up in a big fight. and the BSC and therapist seem to obsess over my daughter being the bully and my son the victim. i am trying to ignore the comments but i do come out and tell them what i think cause it is all day of course and i hear the comments often.
Laenini
12-29-2006, 11:20 PM
I think if i put her in playpen for time out that she would just stim and not understand and my son will just smile and laugh. He is a character as well he will scream real bad but once the therapist comes in the room after using our bathroom he is all smiles, he seems very smart for his age. Everyone that comes in baby's him which i understand he is small but they say he is all smiles and my daughter is the bully they make it out to be.
The only policy that has worked in my house is that if two children are fighting, they both get time-outs or equivalent consequences. One child may be guilty of "pushing buttons" yet the other is guilty of allowing them to be pushed rather than keeping themselves under control. By holding both accountable it removes you from having to make a judgement call or play referee. This policy puts a quick end to the "he said/she said" stuff and all the associated finger pointing.
he is very aware of everything i do and has to see everything and when i am making a drink he has to have his first and then when i am making a drink for his sister he throws himself on floor though he already has a drink of his own. He doesnt act this way around other people until he gets comfortable it's like he is making hisself look very innocent then different story when the therpists leave. he will bend his legs for certain therapists and will eat for only one therapist then at home wont eat for the in-home therapists and myself. even his preferred foods he will let himself starve until i give him a drink, he demands what he demands and he will do whatever it takes until i give in.
You are getting yourself set up for some hard years ahead if this type of stuff doesn't get under control soon. Your son has too much power and you need to remind yourself that you are the adult and the power belongs to you! I made this mistake with my older child. I was a single mom of 2 kids at the time, and I was exhausted taking care of them and going to college full-time and working part-time. He learned that he could get his way by throwing a fit, and he had more stamina than I did and could exhaust me to the point of giving in every time he set his mind to it. If I could travel back in time and relive his preschool years, I would change how I handled him. I would take back my parental power, teach him that "no" means no, not "scream louder", and hold him more accountable for his behavior. I know how hard it would be to get this under control now, but I can tell you it would be a dozen times harder to try to control in the future if you let it continue. I have a 3rd child now and he is 9 years younger than his older brother (the asperger's child I had such a hard time with) and my 9 year old is much, much better behaved despite the fact that he is much more severely autistic. And I firmly believe its because I have held him more accountable for his behavior.
I used to think the my older child's behavior should be excused because of his disabilities. I now realize that that the world isn't going to change for my kids. I have to teach them how to function in it despite their disabilities! So I used to excuse behavior in Nick (the 18 year old) that I do not excuse in Zach (the 9 year old). Its paid off big time! I can take Zach just about anywhere and do just about anything with him, and I still can't say the same about Nick.
Enlist these therapists to help you! Get them to sit down with you and set up one set of family rules that are appropriate for both children and can be enforced by all the involved adults. Expectations should be as consistant as possible and consequences should be predictable and appropriate. Post the rules up on a wall, you will be surprised how powerful posting them can be! Your children are young and can't read, but being able to point at a rule posted on the kitchen wall and say "the rule says you get your juice only when you are sitting quietly at the table" will still have a surprising impact I'll bet. It will be hard to turn this around, but it will be even harder NOT to turn it around!
Good luck, I wish you the absolute best! :)
The only policy that has worked in my house is that if two children are fighting, they both get time-outs or equivalent consequences. One child may be guilty of "pushing buttons" yet the other is guilty of allowing them to be pushed rather than keeping themselves under control. By holding both accountable it removes you from having to make a judgement call or play referee. This policy puts a quick end to the "he said/she said" stuff and all the associated finger pointing.
he is very aware of everything i do and has to see everything and when i am making a drink he has to have his first and then when i am making a drink for his sister he throws himself on floor though he already has a drink of his own. He doesnt act this way around other people until he gets comfortable it's like he is making hisself look very innocent then different story when the therpists leave. he will bend his legs for certain therapists and will eat for only one therapist then at home wont eat for the in-home therapists and myself. even his preferred foods he will let himself starve until i give him a drink, he demands what he demands and he will do whatever it takes until i give in.
You are getting yourself set up for some hard years ahead if this type of stuff doesn't get under control soon. Your son has too much power and you need to remind yourself that you are the adult and the power belongs to you! I made this mistake with my older child. I was a single mom of 2 kids at the time, and I was exhausted taking care of them and going to college full-time and working part-time. He learned that he could get his way by throwing a fit, and he had more stamina than I did and could exhaust me to the point of giving in every time he set his mind to it. If I could travel back in time and relive his preschool years, I would change how I handled him. I would take back my parental power, teach him that "no" means no, not "scream louder", and hold him more accountable for his behavior. I know how hard it would be to get this under control now, but I can tell you it would be a dozen times harder to try to control in the future if you let it continue. I have a 3rd child now and he is 9 years younger than his older brother (the asperger's child I had such a hard time with) and my 9 year old is much, much better behaved despite the fact that he is much more severely autistic. And I firmly believe its because I have held him more accountable for his behavior.
I used to think the my older child's behavior should be excused because of his disabilities. I now realize that that the world isn't going to change for my kids. I have to teach them how to function in it despite their disabilities! So I used to excuse behavior in Nick (the 18 year old) that I do not excuse in Zach (the 9 year old). Its paid off big time! I can take Zach just about anywhere and do just about anything with him, and I still can't say the same about Nick.
Enlist these therapists to help you! Get them to sit down with you and set up one set of family rules that are appropriate for both children and can be enforced by all the involved adults. Expectations should be as consistant as possible and consequences should be predictable and appropriate. Post the rules up on a wall, you will be surprised how powerful posting them can be! Your children are young and can't read, but being able to point at a rule posted on the kitchen wall and say "the rule says you get your juice only when you are sitting quietly at the table" will still have a surprising impact I'll bet. It will be hard to turn this around, but it will be even harder NOT to turn it around!
Good luck, I wish you the absolute best! :)
iyami
01-02-2007, 01:54 PM
whoa, that sounds EXACTLY like me an dmy little brotehr when we were younger, and even now
i didnt know such a disorder existed, distructive behavior? my sister jenny is the same way, but shes gotten much better, basically, she gets time out, if she cnat be moved to anotehr room, she is left alone in the one she sin, and if she keeps fallowing poeple she still gets no attention untill she calms down and agrees to behave herself, and whatever she was screaming for, she cant have it, she can have sometihng else if she agrees to behave but thats it
and actually Becuase of that,
shes gotten liek a billion times better, before she was almost a living nightmare always screaming and hitting and throwing herself on teh floor, now she still acts liek that at times but not nearly as bad, and she is generally a good little sister who will be reasonable. she is very mean about hitting my youngest brotehr john, she hurts him alot, i mean she cnat Really hurt him but its still not good,
he is very very plikley autistic, he hasnt been tested yet but we have so much in common its rediculous. he usedto just put up with jenny, but now he gets mad sometimes he'll even hit her back, which is bad becuase he Can actually hurt he, he can carry me around and im twice his size.. im pretty small, hes only 8.
my rbotehr mchael is 12 and STILL throws tantrums if he doenst get his way, he acts out just for attention Still, when i was younger no one even belived me becuase he would act so cute when he was getting attention. he till lies and trys to act nice infront of poeple, we dont livetoegtehr At the moment, devorced parents
but when we did
whoa.
i could have SWORN id end up eitehr in a mental assylum becuase of the nsane stress he put me through, or im teh hospital becuase hes now my size and he is big enough to really do damage is he tries to hurt me.
just advice, fix it ebfore hes old enough to do damage like MY brother, now Thats scarey to haveto deal with.
i swear its close to legal abuse when he says such awful things and tries to hurt me. he gets in fights at school too. im SO glad jenny's behaviors were helped when she was so young, shes only 6 now, it was awful from 1 - 4.
i am seeing a weird coincidence of these two types of kids in houses, autistic kid and a kid who does distructive behavior.
you are totally in teh right not to put Her in time out if He provokes her
i mean if john gets out of hand i will put him in tiem out, but jenny does not act liek she used to, i enver would have before, and i only do it now if hes not been reasonabbly provoked into his atcions or words.
i rember i was ALWAYS teh oen punished for ANYTHING my brother did, whetehr it was my reaction to something he did, or if He broke something I got the blame. i STILL to this day get blamed if he acts up just becuase IM older, things that are completly unrelate dto me, like if he skips a class at school its MY fault for "setting a bad example" like i would ever skip classes just to look cool to my fake freinds?
i rember how absolutly horrable it amkde me feel, i was the bully, and he was teh cute innocent little boy. as IF. he was horrable to me. we still ahve the same rediculous problems, for christmas when iw as 15, i got DDR, my rbotehr got an x-box, he stomps so hard on my dance mats, but i still have to share them, even the really good mat i cnat replace becuas iet origionally came with the game, but then my dad wont make HIM share the x-box so I cant play at all.
thats resolved now that he has a New x-box 360 and i have the old one. TWO YEARS LATER.
my dad says its my fault if i get upset, ebcuase i LET HIM GET TO ME. i really feel for your daughter, she sounds like sheshaving the same hard tiem as me and john with michael and jenny.
jenny is kind of a gluten so she would never let herself starve i think. one of teh things she love dto be spoield with was food. she also freaked over "dora" and "wiggles" tv shows. but your therapist is right, we tried EVERYHING with jenny, the only thing that worked was being absoltly intollerant of her fits, id suggest making him eat, it sounds really mean but, we had to do similar things with jenny, and it was really hard, but it worked, and she is MUCH happier and healthier now. my brotehr on the otehr hand, who was never "treated" is miserbale foulmouthed and violent.
my brother still acts like a nice little innocent kid infront of certain people, most people, or he tries to act really cool now which is so Not cool hes just mean, and at school hes gone form As to like near failing for no good reason, becuase he thinks its "cool" he will pitch fits around me still, but he will immediatly try to act "cool" if someone comes by he knows.
jenny is the sweetest quietest little angel in shcool, its so har dto belive, eben though she behaves so much better now, shes the lowdest child i have ever met, shes gone form screaming to giggling shreiks atleast.
i haveto say it sound sliek hes controleing you with food
tehse kids, they love controle, tehy controle everyone around them, tehy are incredably smart and dont understand its bad to do that. the only way to get him to behave is to make him lose his controle over you, so basically, either you put up with him an dhe grows up like my brother, or you take away controle and he ends up like my sister.
sorry if any of that is too hard to read or understand
i didnt know such a disorder existed, distructive behavior? my sister jenny is the same way, but shes gotten much better, basically, she gets time out, if she cnat be moved to anotehr room, she is left alone in the one she sin, and if she keeps fallowing poeple she still gets no attention untill she calms down and agrees to behave herself, and whatever she was screaming for, she cant have it, she can have sometihng else if she agrees to behave but thats it
and actually Becuase of that,
shes gotten liek a billion times better, before she was almost a living nightmare always screaming and hitting and throwing herself on teh floor, now she still acts liek that at times but not nearly as bad, and she is generally a good little sister who will be reasonable. she is very mean about hitting my youngest brotehr john, she hurts him alot, i mean she cnat Really hurt him but its still not good,
he is very very plikley autistic, he hasnt been tested yet but we have so much in common its rediculous. he usedto just put up with jenny, but now he gets mad sometimes he'll even hit her back, which is bad becuase he Can actually hurt he, he can carry me around and im twice his size.. im pretty small, hes only 8.
my rbotehr mchael is 12 and STILL throws tantrums if he doenst get his way, he acts out just for attention Still, when i was younger no one even belived me becuase he would act so cute when he was getting attention. he till lies and trys to act nice infront of poeple, we dont livetoegtehr At the moment, devorced parents
but when we did
whoa.
i could have SWORN id end up eitehr in a mental assylum becuase of the nsane stress he put me through, or im teh hospital becuase hes now my size and he is big enough to really do damage is he tries to hurt me.
just advice, fix it ebfore hes old enough to do damage like MY brother, now Thats scarey to haveto deal with.
i swear its close to legal abuse when he says such awful things and tries to hurt me. he gets in fights at school too. im SO glad jenny's behaviors were helped when she was so young, shes only 6 now, it was awful from 1 - 4.
i am seeing a weird coincidence of these two types of kids in houses, autistic kid and a kid who does distructive behavior.
you are totally in teh right not to put Her in time out if He provokes her
i mean if john gets out of hand i will put him in tiem out, but jenny does not act liek she used to, i enver would have before, and i only do it now if hes not been reasonabbly provoked into his atcions or words.
i rember i was ALWAYS teh oen punished for ANYTHING my brother did, whetehr it was my reaction to something he did, or if He broke something I got the blame. i STILL to this day get blamed if he acts up just becuase IM older, things that are completly unrelate dto me, like if he skips a class at school its MY fault for "setting a bad example" like i would ever skip classes just to look cool to my fake freinds?
i rember how absolutly horrable it amkde me feel, i was the bully, and he was teh cute innocent little boy. as IF. he was horrable to me. we still ahve the same rediculous problems, for christmas when iw as 15, i got DDR, my rbotehr got an x-box, he stomps so hard on my dance mats, but i still have to share them, even the really good mat i cnat replace becuas iet origionally came with the game, but then my dad wont make HIM share the x-box so I cant play at all.
thats resolved now that he has a New x-box 360 and i have the old one. TWO YEARS LATER.
my dad says its my fault if i get upset, ebcuase i LET HIM GET TO ME. i really feel for your daughter, she sounds like sheshaving the same hard tiem as me and john with michael and jenny.
jenny is kind of a gluten so she would never let herself starve i think. one of teh things she love dto be spoield with was food. she also freaked over "dora" and "wiggles" tv shows. but your therapist is right, we tried EVERYHING with jenny, the only thing that worked was being absoltly intollerant of her fits, id suggest making him eat, it sounds really mean but, we had to do similar things with jenny, and it was really hard, but it worked, and she is MUCH happier and healthier now. my brotehr on the otehr hand, who was never "treated" is miserbale foulmouthed and violent.
my brother still acts like a nice little innocent kid infront of certain people, most people, or he tries to act really cool now which is so Not cool hes just mean, and at school hes gone form As to like near failing for no good reason, becuase he thinks its "cool" he will pitch fits around me still, but he will immediatly try to act "cool" if someone comes by he knows.
jenny is the sweetest quietest little angel in shcool, its so har dto belive, eben though she behaves so much better now, shes the lowdest child i have ever met, shes gone form screaming to giggling shreiks atleast.
i haveto say it sound sliek hes controleing you with food
tehse kids, they love controle, tehy controle everyone around them, tehy are incredably smart and dont understand its bad to do that. the only way to get him to behave is to make him lose his controle over you, so basically, either you put up with him an dhe grows up like my brother, or you take away controle and he ends up like my sister.
sorry if any of that is too hard to read or understand
iyami
01-02-2007, 02:03 PM
The only policy that has worked in my house is that if two children are fighting, they both get time-outs or equivalent consequences. One child may be guilty of "pushing buttons" yet the other is guilty of allowing them to be pushed rather than keeping themselves under control. By holding both accountable it removes you from having to make a judgement call or play referee. This policy puts a quick end to the "he said/she said" stuff and all the associated finger pointing.
i disagree there, it is faster but its not always RIGHT.
i mean i dont even have personal bais becuase i had a huge hand in raisng teh youngest two, who argue that way
its important to find out what really happened.
alot of teh time, one kid did absolutly nothing, in whcih case id be so mad at myself if i punished one of them for nothing, i got punished for nothing SO often, and to blunt it was total bull.
it also depends n HOW the other kid reacts,
if my brther, right now, is trjowing stuff at me and calling me a dropout and all of this otehr awful stuff, and i scream at him to "go the **** away" and slam my door crying, I shouldnt be punished, and HE should be.
or if he tries to hurt me, and i push him so taht he wont, again, HE should be punished.
I dont wnat to get yelled at for stuff that ISNT my fault to begin with. its a natural human reaction to "defend yourself" incertain cases.
of course tehre ar etiems when john will hit jenny for saying "im the prtety princess,not you" and tahst a bit much, he gets time out for that.
i disagree there, it is faster but its not always RIGHT.
i mean i dont even have personal bais becuase i had a huge hand in raisng teh youngest two, who argue that way
its important to find out what really happened.
alot of teh time, one kid did absolutly nothing, in whcih case id be so mad at myself if i punished one of them for nothing, i got punished for nothing SO often, and to blunt it was total bull.
it also depends n HOW the other kid reacts,
if my brther, right now, is trjowing stuff at me and calling me a dropout and all of this otehr awful stuff, and i scream at him to "go the **** away" and slam my door crying, I shouldnt be punished, and HE should be.
or if he tries to hurt me, and i push him so taht he wont, again, HE should be punished.
I dont wnat to get yelled at for stuff that ISNT my fault to begin with. its a natural human reaction to "defend yourself" incertain cases.
of course tehre ar etiems when john will hit jenny for saying "im the prtety princess,not you" and tahst a bit much, he gets time out for that.
Laenini
01-04-2007, 01:34 AM
It takes two to fight, therefore if two children are fighting both deserve a time out to cool off and regroup. In my house fighting is wrong and if 2 children decide to participate in a fight they are both going to have consequences. Its often impossible to determine who is in the right and who is wrong. Often its the child with the better social skills who is able to push the blame onto the child with the more impaired social skills and a parent can go insane trying to sort it all out and play Solomon.
But, I will agree that there is a difference between 2 kids fighting and 1 kid assaulting another. If it was truly a situation where one kid attacked another and the victim retreated and sought protection from an adult and did not participate in the altercation other than to seek help, I would punish just the aggressor. But I tread very carefully here as things are not always as they seem again because a child with greater social skills can cover up their involvement with more finesse than the more socially impaired child.
My older son was wrongly placed in an EBD school program for about a year. Those EBD kids were experts at subtlety setting off my son and then appearing totally innocent to the teachers. My son was constantly being punished and he could not explain or stand up for himself well because of his disabilities. But those EBD kids were doing things like flicking him while the teacher wasn't looking, poking him, anything subtle to push his buttons for their own entertainment, and they were not getting punished. While my son was constantly punished and frustrated. I did get him out of that program but it took a battle on my part, and it didn't happen quickly enough. It was a BAD situation for my son and a lot of damage was done during that year that we never were able to totally turn around for him in school. He learned to hate school and hate teachers that year.
Anyway, I stand by my opinion that it takes two to fight and both should be equally punished for their part in the altercation. To put it all in a different light, if you get into a fight in a bar as an adult, both persons involved will get charged with disorderly conduct. If you get hit on the back of the head with a beer bottle out of the blue on your way out of a bar and you do not retaliate, that is assault and the perpetrator would be charged alone.
But, I will agree that there is a difference between 2 kids fighting and 1 kid assaulting another. If it was truly a situation where one kid attacked another and the victim retreated and sought protection from an adult and did not participate in the altercation other than to seek help, I would punish just the aggressor. But I tread very carefully here as things are not always as they seem again because a child with greater social skills can cover up their involvement with more finesse than the more socially impaired child.
My older son was wrongly placed in an EBD school program for about a year. Those EBD kids were experts at subtlety setting off my son and then appearing totally innocent to the teachers. My son was constantly being punished and he could not explain or stand up for himself well because of his disabilities. But those EBD kids were doing things like flicking him while the teacher wasn't looking, poking him, anything subtle to push his buttons for their own entertainment, and they were not getting punished. While my son was constantly punished and frustrated. I did get him out of that program but it took a battle on my part, and it didn't happen quickly enough. It was a BAD situation for my son and a lot of damage was done during that year that we never were able to totally turn around for him in school. He learned to hate school and hate teachers that year.
Anyway, I stand by my opinion that it takes two to fight and both should be equally punished for their part in the altercation. To put it all in a different light, if you get into a fight in a bar as an adult, both persons involved will get charged with disorderly conduct. If you get hit on the back of the head with a beer bottle out of the blue on your way out of a bar and you do not retaliate, that is assault and the perpetrator would be charged alone.