Husband's cholesterol was 249, tri's was a little over 300 HdL was 41, LDL was 162 , got results after taking Vytorin for 3 months half a pill (we did not listen to Doctor who said not to cut them in half -dosage was 10/20, so in accuallity he was getting 5/10 dosage.) His Cholesterol number went down to 138, Tri's 103, HDL 44, LDL was around 100 I think - results are not in front of me, but all accepted levels. I NEVER dreamed his Number would go THAT low on Half a dose a day!! That is almost too low, He hates taking this stuff to begin with, so now he thinks he will take half a dose every other day and see what happens. Really, isn;t 138 TOOOOO low for cholestoral , that does not seem healthy. I cant imgine how low it would have went at the regular daily dose!

Overrun,

Those numbers are about what I calculated that splitting a vytorin 10/20 would do with my untreated numbers (that is, hypothetically speaking, you never know who is reading these boards;) . I calculated that it would be an average 7% difference (above) my numbers with 10/20 thus would justify using less of both the Zetia and Zocor components. The thing that surprises me about your husband's numbers is the total reduction from 249 to 138. That does sound awfully low but I'm no expert:D . My total on 10/20 went from 242 down to 157. So, I would think your husband is getting an extra boost by either diet, exercise, etc.

What I do think your husband's results point to is that using a less dose of the Zetia is not a huge deal as some have worried. In other words, we knew that 10 mg of Zocor is effective and 5 mg of Zetia is (still) giving an even better result (probably the equivalent of taking more of a statin alone).

Anyway, thanks for posting his results. I'll try and do the same in April.

Husband's cholesterol was 249, tri's was a little over 300 HdL was 41, LDL was 162 , got results after taking Vytorin for 3 months half a pill (we did not listen to Doctor who said not to cut them in half -dosage was 10/20, so in accuallity he was getting 5/10 dosage.) His Cholesterol number went down to 138, Tri's 103, HDL 44, LDL was around 100 I think - results are not in front of me, but all accepted levels. I NEVER dreamed his Number would go THAT low on Half a dose a day!! That is almost too low, He hates taking this stuff to begin with, so now he thinks he will take half a dose every other day and see what happens. Really, isn;t 138 TOOOOO low for cholestoral , that does not seem healthy. I cant imgine how low it would have went at the regular daily dose!

Yes, that is too low. WIth a little research you will find that he is at much more risk than he was before he started treatment for cholesterol numbers.

Really, isn't 138 TOOOOO low for cholestoral


That reading is just fine and with his 44 HDL and 100 LDL gives him a ratio TC/HDL of 3.2 which is a healthy balance.
IF he had heart disease or a horrible family history of it, I'd say keep going as low as he can get and aim for an LDL in the 60's.

Let us know how he does with a half pill every second day...I think the results will prove very disappointing because the Zetia will be down to 2.5 mg./day.

That reading is just fine and with his 44 HDL and 100 LDL gives him a ratio TC/HDL of 3.2 which is a healthy balance.
IF he had heart disease or a horrible family history of it, I'd say keep going as low as he can get and aim for an LDL in the 60's.

Let us know how he does with a half pill every second day...I think the results will prove very disappointing because the Zetia will be down to 2.5 mg./day.


Again 138 is TOO Low!!!!

I agree it is too low, but ya know what, the DOctors DO NOT care nor caution you. They did not even call us with these results, I had the Lab personally mail me his results, so this is how I know what they are. I guess they only call you if they are still high, TOO low is fine with them. He is not scheduled to get any more tests until June or July, so it will be awhile. Half a pill every other day sounds Ok to me, as he does not have a family history of heart disease to begin with, Dad died at 76 with Cancer (worked in Mill, smoked all his life-since teens), the only problem he had was a leg blockage in his 70's. He never even took cholesterol medicine one day, but was told too. His Mother is just about 70, she is supposed to be taking something now, but rarely does. She has never had any issues yet, she does take High Blood pressure medicine though. His Aunt & Uncles all live to be at least in their mid 70's. I mean, how long do we want to live anyway. If no heart problems before 70 (in family history) , I just don't think people probably need to take this medicine in many cases anyway.
No, he is not exercising any more than before or changing his diet in any way to get those Drastic reduction in results.
So what happens when it is TOO low??? What issues can come about??? Thanks for all your imput. :)

Several sources: The average vegan's cholesterol scores in at 128-133. The average vegetarian scores 161

An "normal" "average" cholesterol over 210 is achieved by eating a couple tons of meat, butter, milk, and eggs every year for decades.



So, for those whose blood fats have them half way to a death from heart disease, anything below 200 might look abnormal.
Remember, the AVERAGE person in the United States is fat, has AVERAGE cholesterol, and dies from the AVERAGE disease...HEART DISEASE.
The wise person who would rather NOT die from it will try to stay out of the AVERAGE range.

(I was off in some of my figures when I quoted them in original post)....I just dug out the Accual figures from Before he started Vytorin .... and after doing that for 3 months cutting them in half........ First I want to say , my husband is very very thin, only weighs about 140 & average height, he does eat the eggs, 1% milk, not a vegeterian, we rarely eat out, most exercise is at work-he is a Laborer--43 yrs old. But he has never been overweight, more underweight all his life. Lots of people can be thin & still have High Choesterol. He was tested in Sept 2006... # was 235, LDL was 143, HDL was 41 & Tri's were 253. He started the Vytorin 10/20 cutting them in half about Oct - Jan , test in Jan was ...
NUmber # was 138 (originally 235)... ...LDL was 73 (Originally 143) .....HDL was 44 (Originally 41), Tri's was 104 (originally 253-He was eating alot of pasta that week-he never had those that high before).

So we think, since 138 is SOOO low, he will continue to cut them in half and take them every other night and see what kind of results we get in June-July this year. What would the rest of you suggest? Thank you.

An "normal" "average" cholesterol over 210 is achieved by eating a couple tons of meat, butter, milk, and eggs every year for decades.



So, for those whose blood fats have them half way to a death from heart disease, anything below 200 might look abnormal.
Remember, the AVERAGE person in the United States is fat, has AVERAGE cholesterol, and dies from the AVERAGE disease...HEART DISEASE.
The wise person who would rather NOT die from it will try to stay out of the AVERAGE range.


Cholesterol medications artificially lower cholesterol. The average person in the U.S. is fat? ......Gee, maybe that is the cause of heart disease instead of that evil cholesterol. People in the early 1900's until 1940's ate meat, butter, eggs, milk, eggs, etc. and heart disease was basically non-existent. (and no, its not just because they weren't looking for it). Cholesterol was tested as early as 1936 and it DID NOT correspond to CAD. From looking at U.S.D.A. food tables from 1900 on... heart disease started showing up after margarine started to replace butter....when low fat milk started to replace whole milk, when more corn syurp sweetners replaced, sugar (and also an increase of sweetners period)....when fiber was reduced in diet....and when processed foods started to replace fresh foods. Cholesterol levels didn't change bore or after heart disease started showing up.

People in the early 1900's until 1940's ate meat, butter, eggs, milk, eggs, etc. and heart disease was basically non-existent Neither fact is true...meat eating has increased markedly since 1950.

THe absence of heart disease in the 1900's through 1940 is often touted but is patently untrue. Heart disease was present was well represented as a cause of death and it was probably the MAJOR cause of death for those who died after age 60.

A pioneering group of physicians and social workers formed the first Association for the Prevention and Relief of Heart Disease in New York City in 1915. They were concerned about the lack of heart disease information. At that time, heart disease patients were considered doomed, limited to complete bed rest. So these physicians conducted studies in New York City and Boston to find out whether heart disease patients could safely return to work. Similar groups in Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago evolved into heart associations in the 1920s.
Do you think they went through the trouble to found the AHA because nobody had heart disease?

Have you ever heard of Dwight Eisenhower...his several heart attacks during the '50's was legendary heart disease...he was born in 1890 to a weathy family able to eat all it wanted of the "finest foods"...aka meat meat meat.
Ever heard of Woodrwo Wilson's STROKE at age 39.

Warren Harding:
The president was never directly implicated in the scandals. Nevertheless, worry about them weakened his health, already affected by a heart condition. Returning from a trip to Alaska, Harding died suddenly of a heart attack on Aug. 2, 1923.

Check into FDR's medical history.

Lyndon Johnson born in 1908:

Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the United States, died today of an apparent heart attack suffered at his ranch in Johnson City, Tex.
The 64-year-old Mr. Johnson, whose history of heart illness began in 1955, was pronounced dead on arrival at 4:33 P.M. central time at San Antonio International Airport, where he had been flown in a family plane on the way to Brooke Army Medical Center here.
When would you SUPPOSE LBJ began laying down arterial plaque.

Heart disease being NEW is just plain BS...more silly internet legend although not as silly as "all that meat" that people ate during the Depression and WW2. Yeah right!




Yes,
Being FAT is a killer but one gets fat by eating too much saturated fat or making too much fat from other things..
That constantly ebb and flow of grease in out vascular system clogs them...heart disease.

Cholesterol and triglycerides are the measure of this circulating grease looking for a place to seettle...hips, bellies, coronary arteries, brain.

Your rationale that being fat can kill by heart disease but not via circulating lipids is as silly as saying that a gun can kill but not by using a bullet as a vehicle. The two are inextricably linked.

Ok, Lenin, I agree with you about all of this, I am sure it has always been here for the ages, for anyone who does not eat alot of fruits & vegeties and gourges on Fats. So it sounds like you are FOR statins---if we have gotten to the point of High cholesterol? My husband did try to diet to get his down, but no effect. In fact, I eat a ton more fats than him and mine was all in accepted range. So it makes no sense, it is a family thing. Would you agree that 138 is too low, if you were my husband, what would you do, cut his pills in half and take them every other day now --and see what results are? What is your advice? Thank you. :confused:

Yes, Lenin, I do agree that meat eating has increased markedly since 1950. This would be supported by USDA information. So has plain old consumption of food. As you said before, there are a lot of fat people out there. However, this does not change the fact that these foods were consumed before....moderation is the variable that has changed since 1950. I said heart disease was basically non-existent at that time. I still stand by that. I did not said it was non-existent. And yes the AHA was formed because of Heart Disease. (or as they thought, problems with the heart)...Why?? again you are correct...because these patients were doomed. There was not treatment for the heart at that time. And, yes, there were certainly people with heart problems. However, heart disease was not the killer that it is today. As far as one gets fat by eating too much saturated fat or making too much fat from other things... a simple look at chemistry would answer this question. Saturated fat is burned quickly by the body for energy. You might consider the Duke university study on the atkins diet. You might also consider the Clay Semenkovich study on old fat needing new fat to be burned. Referring to lipids as "grease" is wrong. It is not grease. This rationale is not silly or "mindless twaddle". And yes, you could beat someone to death with an unloaded gun. Maybe everyone is looking for that "magic bullet" when it was never there.

Would you agree that 138 is too low, if you were my husband, what would you do, cut his pills in half and take them every other day now --and see what results are? What is your advice? Thank you. :confused:

I most ermphatically do NOT think 138 is too low and your husband is lucky that he can achieve such lowering on one half of a low dose Vyotrin every day.
I would continue that regimen.

<Psst, don't tell you doctor you are splitting the pill or he will:
1. throw a major fit,:mad:
2. switch you to a 10/10 formulation to take every day, thus DOUBLING your drug cost.>:rolleyes:

I did a quick search on Low cholesterol, that can cause Hemratic stroke more often, and psychological problems, sex drive, etc so I don't know, I would rather see his levels in the 180 -200 range, and take less of a pill. All we wanted is something , however small, to bring things within accepted levels, never THAT low. I have to agree with the findings, it can't be healthy to be that low. And if so, if not taking any drugs to lower it, fine. But Vytorin in itself can not be THAT good for you, why over do it, to me that is just not Wise. I see many people complaining of pain after only a few months taking this stuff. Scary! And all those tests for liver function. SO the less the dosage to acheive regular/accepted levels, that is our aim. :)

People are more prone to violence with low cholesterol. I'm glad you are doing some research on you own to see what things can happen with lowered cholesterol. Also be aware that just because the liver test come back normal...does not mean that you do not have damage. It has been found that biopsies have revealed substancial muscle damage even in the abscense of abnormal liver tests. The Imposter Trial is currently conducting further research into this matter. ALso remember that the heart is a muscle also.

Then you would agree, the less amount of any Vytorin possible is the BEST thing to do, right? Or would you say that numbers like 235 #, LDL 262 , Tris a little over 200 and 41 HDL is good enough to live with for a 43 yr old with no family history ?? I just like to hear what everyone thinks. You guys know more than me.

Overrun,

Your husband and I are similar in age and numbers. If I had those untreated numbers (and I do:mad:) then I want the reduction in numbers! Actually, my HDL is not as good as his (when untreated). Plus, I don't have the real threats either. I don't smoke, I don't have family history, etc. I do exercise and my weight is not bad for my height but I have plenty of stress. Still, taking the Vytorin brings me to good numbers. Plus, his splitting the dose with great numbers should worry you even less. I'm sure if I exercised more and ate the type of diet that I needed to, got my weight back to Age 18 (weight) then I wouldn't have much need to worry. Reality though indicates that with today's hectic lifestyle and eating habits, one must compensate. Taking a minimal dose of Vytorin (with less statin than most) yet getting good numbers is the chance I'm taking. I think keeping up with my labs every few months and monitoring my liver panels, etc. gives some peace-of-mind. One can never eliminate all the risk though. For me, going from a 3% chance of CHD to <1% seems to be worth taking it (for the present at least:cool: ). I can't emphasize enough that if he's taking 1/2 dose every day and dropping his total and cholesterol that much he couldn't be taking much less of a dose (if any). Does he eat red rice for breakfast, lunch and dinner :)??? His total reduction just seems like he's doing something(s) right besides taking the Vytorin.

No, seriously, he is doing NOTHING different than before he took Vytorin to get that much of a reduction, I was surprised too. Now he did take Red Yeast RIce a year ago every day faithfully-which did NOTHING for his cholesterol after a lipid test. I made sure he QUIT taking that when he started Vytorin, he gave those to his Mom infact. I do have him taking 1 coq10 with each half dose, plus regular multi vitimin, extra fish oil. He always took those vitamiins before starting Vytorin (except the coq10). I cut his pills in half with a pill cutter I bought at Eckard.


QUestion...these liver function tests, how are they read on a Lab sheet, I had the Lab send me his results to the house--I am assuming this test is on here unless they only sent me the Cholesterol results, I do not really know. I never looked to see the results for that, how is it listed?? Surely not "liver test"?? Thank you.

Sounds like he's doing pretty much what I'm doing. I've added the CoQ10 100 mg since my last labs (plus I might know someone who's splitting too :D ). I've taken the Fish Oil and Slo-Niacin. If my total goes that low, I'll become the CoQ10 spokesperson!

As to the liver tests mainly look for ALT (sometimes SGPT), AST (SGOT). These are the two main ones that I see on my labs. Also, you might see GGT, Albumin, Protein, Alkaline Phosphatase, Total Bilirubin.

I found the ALT on his Lab work after splitting Vytorin for 3 months , it is 55, normal says between 3- 60 ? Sounds like it is getting close to Bad limits?? AST was 35 (normal between 3-50)
I looked at his previous tests without any cholesterol lowering drugs...it was 31 ALT (showing on that sheet that normal was below 50), another year is was 36 ALT. Wondering if the Vytorin was raising his ALT this high? So this is related to Liver function?? Thanks

Overrun,

Usually, concern doesn't kick in until the ALT is 3 x the upper limit. So, using the scale of 50 (I think you said was the upper end) he's still a long way away. One might see it up in the hundreds with Hepatitis (for instance) but not necessarily (so I'm told). I wouldn't doubt that it's from the Vytorin, but 2 often overlooked culprits to raise ALT are antibiotics (certain ones like Amoxicillin) and Tylenol (generic-acetaminophen). I think the acetaminophen were my biggest influence and I'm anxious to see my results in April now that I have stopped using any form of them (for the most part :cool: ). I've read that one's ALT might still test have even after stopping the acetaminophen and even while taking it low dose! The AST is typically high with heavy alcohol consumption. Mine has never been high even on Crestor or Vytorin. Definitely, both are key liver enzymes.

For some reason, on this lap reprot, they have the upper end of ALT at 60 (not 50 like most labs) and he was tested at 55. So , yes within normal limits, I wonder why this LAb does it differnt than most other labs, it is QUEST Diagnostics. He has not taken Antibiotics in over a year and NEVER touches any kind of aspirin or Tylenol and never drinks, so it must be the Vytorin that is raising it some, I dont know. And that was with half a pill a day. He is now taking a half every other day, so we will see in July if it brings that down at all , and still gives cholesterol numbers in accepted range. The less the better is the way we are looking at it. Thanks for all your help.

Judge: What was your ALT and AST numbers while taking your cholesterol drugs? Just curious. Thanks

Overrun,

On Crestor 5 mg (from 09/04 to 11/05) ALT (ranged from 55 to 85-lab high range of 36). Dr. took me off due to my ALT but mostly other side effects. AST (ranged from 22 to 32-lab high range of 37).

Niacin, Fish Oil (no-statin) (from 11/05 to 11/06) ALT (49 to 65) and AST (24 to 27)

Vytorin 10/20 (from 11/06 to present) ALT (56 to 81) AST (24 to 26). When I hit ALT of 81 this past December I immediately began searching here and otherwise and that's how I found out about the tylenol and antibiotics. I had been taking Tylenol PM (generic) and Amoxicillin for 2-3 weeks immediately prior to testing because of a tooth (root canal).I discussed it with my doctor and he confirmed the effect of these on ALT (truely, LENIN pointed me in the right direction:D ).

I bet your doctor didn't tell you that you should stop cholesterol lowering medication several days before elective surgery did he?

nhone,

No, I haven't seen him in a bit but I didn't stop. What are the effects on not stopping? Plus, I'm not sure a root canal was elective in my case:confused: ? I didn't go willingly:mad: .

I think what they mean by elective is that it wasn't emergency.....lol. I wouldn't go willingly either, especially for a root canal. Statins lower the immune system... in fact you can find some research on statins and transplants.