elbasso
03-13-2007, 01:21 PM
First of all, I'm the one with bipolar disorder. My 8-year-old daughter was just diagnosed as ADD and started a course of ******** (ritilan)...the side effects were not good. She became so irritable that everyone around her could hardly stand being with her, and her mood swings went from irritable to sad frequently throughout the day. She also had some intense anxiety. Her doctor saw this and took her off of the drug. We are going to see the psych about her reaction next week.
Here are my questions though...this almost sounds like a hypomanic episode (she still isn't back to normal after two weeks off of the drug). First, does anyone know the chances of my children having BP because of her family history (myself...there are also a couple of others on my dad's side) of bp and alcoholism (very strong on both sides of my own family, and I can't touch alcohol either). Also, can a stimulant (********) given to someone who had never had a hypomanic episode before, cause them to be bipolar (I'm not sure how to phrase that)?
Hope that paragraph made sense :p
Thanks,
Angie
Here are my questions though...this almost sounds like a hypomanic episode (she still isn't back to normal after two weeks off of the drug). First, does anyone know the chances of my children having BP because of her family history (myself...there are also a couple of others on my dad's side) of bp and alcoholism (very strong on both sides of my own family, and I can't touch alcohol either). Also, can a stimulant (********) given to someone who had never had a hypomanic episode before, cause them to be bipolar (I'm not sure how to phrase that)?
Hope that paragraph made sense :p
Thanks,
Angie
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goody2shuz
03-13-2007, 01:34 PM
Hi, Angie....yes to all of the above!! With your family history and your daughter's reaction to the Ritalin it is almost certain that she is BP. Sounds as if she had an induced mania/hypomania. You mustn't feel bad about this because if your daughter has the gene for BP it would have been just a matter of time before it was triggered. Either by stress, a traumatice experience or loss such as a death in the family, loss of a pet or a divorce or even hormonal changes will trigger the emergence of BP. In a way it is a blessing if it happened now because the earlier it is treated the better.
Also, if you read up on it, BP and ADHD share alot of the same charactereistics and are often misdiagnosed for one another. I would suggest that you go to the library and read up all that you can about BP....the book "The Bipolar Child" is a wonderful one which will have you well informed before you actually meet with the psychiatrist. Usually most psychiatrists are not quick to diagnose BP in children but with your family history as well as your daughter's reaction to the stimulant, it is most likely that they will treat her for BP.
My advice is to get as much information as you can about children with BP and how it is treated. It is treated much differently than as with an adult s educating yourself is very important in terms of supporting your daughter and being proactive in her overall progress and treatment. AND....as I am finding out, it isn't an easy thing to go through as a parent...finding support for yourself and the rest of your family will be vital in getting through this with strength and little effects on your immediate family. Everyone is affected by BP...it is not just the child, it is everybody who loves her as well.
There are many of us here for you....I am sure that as I have found, knowing that there are others who are walking in your two shoes really is a blessing and helps to carry you through.
Welcome and we look forward to seeing more of you here ~ Goody, the one dishing out lots of (((HUGS))):angel: :wave:
Also, if you read up on it, BP and ADHD share alot of the same charactereistics and are often misdiagnosed for one another. I would suggest that you go to the library and read up all that you can about BP....the book "The Bipolar Child" is a wonderful one which will have you well informed before you actually meet with the psychiatrist. Usually most psychiatrists are not quick to diagnose BP in children but with your family history as well as your daughter's reaction to the stimulant, it is most likely that they will treat her for BP.
My advice is to get as much information as you can about children with BP and how it is treated. It is treated much differently than as with an adult s educating yourself is very important in terms of supporting your daughter and being proactive in her overall progress and treatment. AND....as I am finding out, it isn't an easy thing to go through as a parent...finding support for yourself and the rest of your family will be vital in getting through this with strength and little effects on your immediate family. Everyone is affected by BP...it is not just the child, it is everybody who loves her as well.
There are many of us here for you....I am sure that as I have found, knowing that there are others who are walking in your two shoes really is a blessing and helps to carry you through.
Welcome and we look forward to seeing more of you here ~ Goody, the one dishing out lots of (((HUGS))):angel: :wave:
tsohl
03-13-2007, 01:51 PM
Hello,
Goody said it all pretty well. Another book I would recommend is "Understanding the Mind of Your Bipolar Child" by Gregory T. Lombardo. This man was a teacher before becoming a psychiatrist and he is himself bipolar. He approaches things from a developmental viewpoint and touches on lots of topics like ADD ADHD, substance abuse, separation anxiety, school issues...it is very helpful.
There are several moms on here currently that have younger kids -- BetsyAnn and 5boys come to mind, but there are others, too. You might want to look for their threads and say hello. I know 5boys is laid up this week; she had her tonsils out yesterday so probably won't be posting for a couple days.
I agree that even though you youself are bipolar, there is so much new information out there on childhood onset bipolar disorder that there is much to be learned.
Welcome to the board. I hope you will find it as helpful as I have.
:wave: Tsohl
Goody said it all pretty well. Another book I would recommend is "Understanding the Mind of Your Bipolar Child" by Gregory T. Lombardo. This man was a teacher before becoming a psychiatrist and he is himself bipolar. He approaches things from a developmental viewpoint and touches on lots of topics like ADD ADHD, substance abuse, separation anxiety, school issues...it is very helpful.
There are several moms on here currently that have younger kids -- BetsyAnn and 5boys come to mind, but there are others, too. You might want to look for their threads and say hello. I know 5boys is laid up this week; she had her tonsils out yesterday so probably won't be posting for a couple days.
I agree that even though you youself are bipolar, there is so much new information out there on childhood onset bipolar disorder that there is much to be learned.
Welcome to the board. I hope you will find it as helpful as I have.
:wave: Tsohl
elbasso
03-13-2007, 05:17 PM
Hi! Thank you so much for your replies. Another thing I was thinking of. In my online reading, they talk a lot about bipolar children as being very hyperactive and aggressive...my daughter never has been that way. She HAS been moody since birth. She also has language delays (receptive and expressive), and so she appears inattentive in class, and that too makes me wonder about the ADD diagnosis. Anyway, I'm babbling now :)
Angie
Angie
tsohl
03-13-2007, 05:30 PM
How was the diagnosis of ADD made and, by whom?
tsohl
03-13-2007, 05:40 PM
Hi again,
I am looking in that book I mentioned earlier and am paraphrasing: ADD and ADHD and BP arise from different problems in different areas of the brain. For this reason, the medicines used to treat ADD/ADHD can be dangerous in children with bipolar disorder. It goes on to say that the meds typically used to treat ADD are stimulants -- which increase the activity of dopamine and norepinephrine. This affects different parts of the brain in the two groups. In a bipolar child she may respond initially, but because it affects a deeper part of the brain, the med takes longer to have the full effect -- so some kids may not have a bad reaction for weeks or even months...but it can also happen right away ...the child may develop sleep disturbances, mood instability, "a rebound reaction (hyperarousal and irritability) and possibly psychosis."
I can paraphrase more if you'd like --
Tsohl
I am looking in that book I mentioned earlier and am paraphrasing: ADD and ADHD and BP arise from different problems in different areas of the brain. For this reason, the medicines used to treat ADD/ADHD can be dangerous in children with bipolar disorder. It goes on to say that the meds typically used to treat ADD are stimulants -- which increase the activity of dopamine and norepinephrine. This affects different parts of the brain in the two groups. In a bipolar child she may respond initially, but because it affects a deeper part of the brain, the med takes longer to have the full effect -- so some kids may not have a bad reaction for weeks or even months...but it can also happen right away ...the child may develop sleep disturbances, mood instability, "a rebound reaction (hyperarousal and irritability) and possibly psychosis."
I can paraphrase more if you'd like --
Tsohl
elbasso
03-13-2007, 06:29 PM
How was the diagnosis of ADD made and, by whom?
It was made by her developmental pediatrician after her teachers filled out the screening forms (I forget what they are called). There was one teacher in particular who gave her "high scores". I have other professionals telling me they don't think she is ADD at all (I kind of agree with them).
Angie
It was made by her developmental pediatrician after her teachers filled out the screening forms (I forget what they are called). There was one teacher in particular who gave her "high scores". I have other professionals telling me they don't think she is ADD at all (I kind of agree with them).
Angie
elbasso
03-13-2007, 06:31 PM
Oh, I also picked up "The Bipolar Child" this afternoon.
Angie
Angie
mamiacp
03-13-2007, 07:25 PM
Yes stimulants can bring on manic episodes in bipolar patients. My daughter started took Ritalin, Concerta, Adderall and they all caused her to become manic within about 2 weeks of taking them. I remember her telling me when she was about 11 that her head was all mixed up and motioned with her hands spinning in the air. My daughter also has an expressive language disorder. Her pediatrician prescribed the ADHD medications and when she saw the reactions, she recommended a psychiatrist, and that was when we got the diagnosis of BP. We have history on both sides of the family. She has been doing well and is stable on Seroquel and Trileptal. It was only after about 6 months on these two medications did her doctor address the ADHD symptoms. She now take Metadate XL and is doing well on all three medications. My husband is also BP and ADHD and he takes Abilify and Metadate XL.
Another good book is Driven to Distraction, by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D. and John J. Ratey, M.D. This one was recommended by our psychiatrist which help me greatly to understand how my daughter and husband tick. It is easy to understand and so interesting you can finish it in a day.
Cristina
Another good book is Driven to Distraction, by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D. and John J. Ratey, M.D. This one was recommended by our psychiatrist which help me greatly to understand how my daughter and husband tick. It is easy to understand and so interesting you can finish it in a day.
Cristina
elbasso
03-14-2007, 01:23 PM
Thank you for your reply.
As a sidenote, I believe I had my first hypomanic episode after my doctor started treating me for depression with Prozac(antidepressant).
We have my daughter's IEP meeting tomorrow, and I just know one of her teachers is going to push ADD meds, 'because she was doing so much better in school'. I only received lukewarm reports on her progress until we decided to take her off her ADD med. :rolleyes:
Angie
As a sidenote, I believe I had my first hypomanic episode after my doctor started treating me for depression with Prozac(antidepressant).
We have my daughter's IEP meeting tomorrow, and I just know one of her teachers is going to push ADD meds, 'because she was doing so much better in school'. I only received lukewarm reports on her progress until we decided to take her off her ADD med. :rolleyes:
Angie
goody2shuz
03-14-2007, 01:50 PM
Angie ~ I would print out everything and everything you can to support the fact that ADD & Bipolar have common characteristics that have many health professionals misdiagnosing one for the other. Also bring printouts of how meds perscribed for ADD such as stimulants and antidepressants can only worsten Bipolar symptoms possibly triggering pyschosis. And finally, present to them evidence of your diagnosis and materials that support a strong genetic predisposition to Bipolar when one or more parents either have the disorder or family history of Bipolar, depression, or even drug/alcohol abuse.
You are your daughter's strongest advocate....and NOBODY knows her better than YOU.;)
You will do fine....you are a GREAT mother and your daughter is lucky to have you.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
You are your daughter's strongest advocate....and NOBODY knows her better than YOU.;)
You will do fine....you are a GREAT mother and your daughter is lucky to have you.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
BTDT
03-14-2007, 04:50 PM
Hi,
I'm pretty sure there is a chapter in the bipolar book you bought that explains how the wrong meds can trigger mania in kids. That might be a good thing to photocopy and bring with you to the meeting.
One of the biggest problems with childhood bipolar is that it is rarely the first line diagnosis. There is still too much debate over whethere or not a child can even BE bipolar. So there are two classes of drugs KNOWN to trigger mania/hypomania/anxiety in some bipolar kids: ADHD and depression medications. These drugs (like Ritalin or Zoloft) can have the same result in adult bipolar patients, but at least with adults, no one is saying "you are too young, you CAN'T be bipolar."
Do note, a person can be ADHD and bipolar (called "comorbid" meaning two problems at the same time, not from the same cause). It actually happens a lot. But until a bipolar person has their mood stabilized, throwing stimulants and anti-depressants at them is risky.
Finally, if anybody at the school besides a psychologist or social worker, tries to TELL you what they think the diagnosis of your child is, they are overstepping their legal and ethical limits. And if you call them on it in a meeting, I assure you they will back off! No teacher or school administrator can say, "your child is XXX and we want her on XXX meds" legally. And they know that. But that doesn't stop them from saying it. However, you can remind them, and watch them apologize. :)
I'm pretty sure there is a chapter in the bipolar book you bought that explains how the wrong meds can trigger mania in kids. That might be a good thing to photocopy and bring with you to the meeting.
One of the biggest problems with childhood bipolar is that it is rarely the first line diagnosis. There is still too much debate over whethere or not a child can even BE bipolar. So there are two classes of drugs KNOWN to trigger mania/hypomania/anxiety in some bipolar kids: ADHD and depression medications. These drugs (like Ritalin or Zoloft) can have the same result in adult bipolar patients, but at least with adults, no one is saying "you are too young, you CAN'T be bipolar."
Do note, a person can be ADHD and bipolar (called "comorbid" meaning two problems at the same time, not from the same cause). It actually happens a lot. But until a bipolar person has their mood stabilized, throwing stimulants and anti-depressants at them is risky.
Finally, if anybody at the school besides a psychologist or social worker, tries to TELL you what they think the diagnosis of your child is, they are overstepping their legal and ethical limits. And if you call them on it in a meeting, I assure you they will back off! No teacher or school administrator can say, "your child is XXX and we want her on XXX meds" legally. And they know that. But that doesn't stop them from saying it. However, you can remind them, and watch them apologize. :)
BTDT
03-14-2007, 04:55 PM
Oh, and I'm not saying she has ADHD! I'm just saying that it is possible to have both, but even with both, medicating the ADHD is extremely risky. And in her case, already proven to cause the normally expected (unfortunate) side effect. It doesn't happen to everyone! But you've already seen it in your daughter.
So the question at the IEP meeting is not whether or not she needs meds for ADHD. The question is whether or not she is having a serious emotional disturbance that is effecting her school work. Clearly, she is. And they ought to be able to agree to that.
The bad thing about an Emotionally Disturbed IEP, is that is quite a label to carry around. The good thing, is it doesn't require your child to be failing in school in order to get services. This is a big issue if she happens to be smart.
Hope that is helpful.
:)
So the question at the IEP meeting is not whether or not she needs meds for ADHD. The question is whether or not she is having a serious emotional disturbance that is effecting her school work. Clearly, she is. And they ought to be able to agree to that.
The bad thing about an Emotionally Disturbed IEP, is that is quite a label to carry around. The good thing, is it doesn't require your child to be failing in school in order to get services. This is a big issue if she happens to be smart.
Hope that is helpful.
:)
BetsyAnn
03-14-2007, 10:25 PM
My son (currently 9 1/2) was on Concerta for ADHD before he was diagnosed with bipolar. It actually did help him with attention at school. It also made him psychotic. With your family history of bipolar you need to be extra careful about giving stimulants or antidepressants. Bipolar should have been ruled out before they gave her a stimulant. If she does have bipolar (and it sure sounds like she does) she needs to be on a mood stabilizer before they try any stimulants, even then they can be risky.
Good luck at your meeting tomorrow.
Good luck at your meeting tomorrow.
4support
03-15-2007, 11:12 PM
Yes stimulants can bring on manic episodes in bipolar patients. My daughter started took Ritalin, ********, Adderall and they all caused her to become manic within about 2 weeks of taking them. I remember her telling me when she was about 11 that her head was all mixed up and motioned with her hands spinning in the air. My daughter also has an expressive language disorder. Her pediatrician prescribed the ADHD medications and when she saw the reactions, she recommended a psychiatrist, and that was when we got the diagnosis of BP. We have history on both sides of the family. She has been doing well and is stable on Seroquel and Trileptal. It was only after about 6 months on these two medications did her doctor address the ADHD symptoms. She now take Metadate XL and is doing well on all three medications. My husband is also BP and ADHD and he takes Abilify and Metadate XL.
Another good book is Driven to Distraction, by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D. and John J. Ratey, M.D. This one was recommended by our psychiatrist which help me greatly to understand how my daughter and husband tick. It is easy to understand and so interesting you can finish it in a day.
Cristina
Hi Mamiacp,
I read your post and wanted to say hello and that my husband is also BP and ADHD,...and we also live in North Texas!
He is currently seeing a pdoc and trying to find the right med combo to manage the moods AND the ADHD. I am looking for information on what has worked for other people dx with both conditions. You mentioned that your husband is on Abilify and Metadate XL. Would you pls fill me in on if this med combo has your husband's moods/ADHD symptoms stabilized? Did he have to go through many different meds before finding the ones that worked? My husband is on lithium (was just increased) and he just started Adderall. Ritalin/******** did not seem to work for him. The lithium manages the mood swings, but it has been increased 4x in the past 3 yrs, which more than likely will mean that his mood stabilizer will be changed soon.
I would love to chat with you and learn more...
Best Regards,
4support
:wave:
Another good book is Driven to Distraction, by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D. and John J. Ratey, M.D. This one was recommended by our psychiatrist which help me greatly to understand how my daughter and husband tick. It is easy to understand and so interesting you can finish it in a day.
Cristina
Hi Mamiacp,
I read your post and wanted to say hello and that my husband is also BP and ADHD,...and we also live in North Texas!
He is currently seeing a pdoc and trying to find the right med combo to manage the moods AND the ADHD. I am looking for information on what has worked for other people dx with both conditions. You mentioned that your husband is on Abilify and Metadate XL. Would you pls fill me in on if this med combo has your husband's moods/ADHD symptoms stabilized? Did he have to go through many different meds before finding the ones that worked? My husband is on lithium (was just increased) and he just started Adderall. Ritalin/******** did not seem to work for him. The lithium manages the mood swings, but it has been increased 4x in the past 3 yrs, which more than likely will mean that his mood stabilizer will be changed soon.
I would love to chat with you and learn more...
Best Regards,
4support
:wave: