Hey guys,

I thought I would just start a new thread. I know that my last 2 posts were really negative and self defeating. I don't blame everyone for not responding back to me. Quick history.... geez, I guess I could say I've had a TOUGH TIME with everything. Years of hydro abuse, have quit cold turkey several times, then in April, decided to try sub. It made me feel weird and spacy and I didn't like it. Like so many other addicts I have a habit of self medicating, so I took myself off of sub and got back on hydros. At first it was totally under control. Then the last time I got a refill, I went through 180 Norcos in a week. I got more from an OP. I knew this was it. I got a new job and didn't want to mess it up being spaced out on pills. Plus the main reason I need to get straight and stay straight is for my beautiful daughter. I'm a single mom and I'm all she's got. The sub is great for withdrawals so I got in a bad cycle of using them to last between refills then getting off them. I know how messed up that is and that I need to cancel my refills and forget about them for good. Yea, I still have pain but I have advil, alleve, tylenol, aspirin and soma for when it's all too much. Plus the sub helps the pain somewhat.

So, I came here seeking answers a few days ago. So much negativity about sub is why I left these boards this spring. This time I found a few positive posts about it (wow!) but those mixed in with what a nightmare it is to get off of. I was really torn about getting off and quitting and trying to just be clean. But I knew that the addict in me was trying to get me to quit sub so I could call in a refill on hydros.

I did a lot of reseach today on other boards. The other boards I found were all positive about sub. I wish we could share websites here b/c I found one site, totally devoted to sub, that has forums with past members like TwinLyn, Spark a cet, lots of the old timers like me... and tough time. ;-) Not only were these people posting, but they have tons of medical research and scientific articles on what opiates do to the brain and how the sub does help the brain repair itself.

I think that the reason I was having such strong cravings for hydros is that my dose was too low. I put myself on a 4 mg dose b/c I was on a 12 a while back and I remember Podee's saying that was an incredibly high dose and I felt like I might as well cut off my hand. Well, if you aren't on the right dose of sub it's not gonna work. I increased it a little today and have not been craving hydros. Thinking about them but not craving. One of the articles I read today said that when people have been dependent on opiates so long that the brain thinks they need them to survive, that's why the cravings to take them are like your body thinking you need food or water, your brain thinks they are dependent on your survival.

Anyway, I also found lots of posters who were on sub for years and for months and talked about their slow taper and how they felt great! I am going to stick with this. I know that ultimately I need to get in a 12 step program and I need to get in counseling. I'm going to try to get in with an addictionologist this week then when possible get to the 12 steps. I just started a new job and I can't take the time yet for the meetings. My boss wants to know where I am 24/7 and when I'm home it's taking care of my baby. I am going to try to do some online meetings until I can get to some. Anyway, for years and years I thought this was the only board out there that dealt with addiction and sub and everything. It's not. I've met some great people on here but most of the old timers are gone anyway. Reach is an angel of mercy but I sure do miss Kiam. Don't know if Phil and Buckeye Tim are still here.

Peace to all. Michelle (or Maggie?), there's even a scientific article on this site about pregnancy with suboxone. I wish I could have sent you the link. Hope you find it. -) Hope I don't get banned for even mentioning other sites but hey, it won't be the first time if I do.

Later,
Texas TT Debbie

hey texas deb,good to hear from ya.i myself am back on suboxone again for the third time since early 03 and if it were not for sub i would have lost it all probably my life to.cant say nothin bad about it for it has helped me when nothin else did.i say you have made a good choice and i applaud you in your attempt to get sober.one thing tho is you have to quit usin other opiates while on the sub if you do it really messes the brain up and it will space you out and not in a good way.ill try to write more later got to get up at 4:00am so got to get in bed.good luck-spark

Hello Chance

Boing! Boing! Boing! Thinking that is what your brain does when all the conflicting messages are read about sub. Yes? Think it is also what your brain does when the switch is constantly made back and forth between sub and norcos. Yes? Think the committment to anything concerning drug issue is lacking. Perhaps?

Uh oh, more boings coming on. Have to find a way to stop the bouncing.

I think, Chance, that you are allowing yourself to think rationally with one part of your mind... the rational part... when it comes to sub. However, as soon as something negative is read about it, another part of your mind is allowed to work... the addictive part... and suddenly maybe sub isn't such a good idea. Oh, better go back to hydros!... now what part of the brain is allowing you to think hydros are a better choice for you? Hmmmmmmm. Now THIS is a 'no-boinger'....

Chance, of course we honor advice given by caring people. But of course, that advice is going to vary greatly because it comes from different experiences! In the end, the advice must all be appreciated by the receiver for the spirit it has been given in, but it is up to the individual who is receiving it to decide which portions of the advice are most pertinent to that individual's realistic course of action.

Buckeye Tim used sub on a short and sweet course of action and did a cold turkey of opiates. He did a great job. I opted not to switch to any other drug at all and did a slow taper off oxycodne and did a great job. Was his plan better than mine? Nope. Was my plan better then? Nope. They were simply plans, that we stuck to, that were successful for each of us as individuals. So that is what we share because that is what we know best.

Sub is a tool. I think it is most important that it be used as a tool in the best way for each. Hydro is not a tool. It is something that is going to keep bringing you down with endless use.

I believe it is pass the time of bouncing for you. Stop. Think. Make a plan and commit to it. My suggestion is that you stick with the sub in a commiteed, controlled plan. If there is a need for you as an individual to stay on it for a great length of time, then so what? Stay on it as a time-gainer that allows you tom get your thinking calm and straight and consistent again. It is essential that you do this. The sub can be a tool that allows this to happen. Ever read any postings from Jake? he was on sub I believe for three years. So what? he gained the time need for him to allow his thinking to heal so that when his plan to stop was ready to be deployed, he was successful.

Gently I say the following, Chance.... letting the words and advice of others be an excuse for not stopping the bouncing is immature thinking. It is like a child blaming another for making them do something bad. When a child does this, we as adults know we must help them understand self responsibility and we employ tactics that help them grow towards this more mature thinking. Learn, Chance, learn.

Commit first to truly needing, not just desiring, to come off norcos and such. When that is accomplished, start writing out your thoughts about how you believe is most realistic for you to accomplish this. Come and share the ideas with us for our combined advice and experiences. Then sort through our thoughts not balancing and reading for what you like or don't like, but for ideas that seem most workable for you.

I am glad a 2ndChance is available for you! Just don't want to bank on a third one.

Hugs
reach

Hi there Chance,

I really like what Reach had to say about making a plan and sticking to it.

Committment is a hard one for us addicts. When the desire to use is stronger than the disire to stay clean and sober in my experience drinking and using will get done.

I think that for some folks Sub is good and others it is not. Everyones body is different and everyones mind set is also different.
Trying to plug in positive thoughts instead of negative ones is not always easy.
The one thing in your post that most concerned me was that you said you needed to stay clean for your daughter!!! In my personal experience and from what I have seen watching other folks try to stay clean and sober the decision to stay clean and sober has to be made for self not for someone or something else. Just something to think about.
I think 12 step groups and counceling are freat to. Good for you for wanting to participate in those things!! I am very active in 12 step groups and I was seeing a councelor to but my Insurance is about to change and the new one wont cover counceling.
I work with a sponsor and I now have a sponsee that I am working with.

A friend of mine works as a drug and alcohol councelor and he did a report on Suboxone and said that he thinks it to be a good tool for helping addiction.
I also have a friend that takes it and she is doing well with it. She said in the begining she just had to wait untill her body was acustomed to the drug and then she said she does not really know she is taking it.
I hope that you won't wait to long to find a 12 step group to reach out at.
My entire life is different now....it is all from working the 12 steps and applying them to my life
Is life always great? No
I just keep doing the work and things in life work out!!!
Thanks for sharing and I hope to see more posts from you....Chrissy

Hey Texas!
Thanks for thinking of me! I was so happy to see that you mentioned that some of the other people on other forums, didn't have that bad of a time coming off the sub. as some others say. I guess it all has to do with each individual and how they decide to stop it. I'm doing a slow taper, bcuz i don't want to put myself in the position of taking MORE than needed bcuz i feel so crappy. If i were to do it fast, i would get fed up with the symptoms and go right back to larger dose.....i know myself wayyyy too good.
I truely believe that sub. has helped my Dad tremendously. He's a recovering addict. Also addicted to opiates bcuz of his headaches/migraines (like mine). And this is the FIRST time in his 30yrs. of recovering/relapsing, that he has stayed clean and NOT fought cravings off every minute.
It is also helping with his pain, so for that i am so happy. To see your Father suffer every single day for his entire life is very painful. And i would always worry about him relapsing and possibly dying. He over-does everything he takes. Even when he was on Imitrex for the migraines, he would take (3) a day, when the MAX is TWO A WEEK!!!!!!
So i'm thankful for the fact that FOR ONCE in his life, he is not over-medicating bcuz of his pain.
For me, i feel that the sub may be necessary for me after i deliver. I've struggled daily with the cravings whenever i've been sober. And the thought has crossed my mind many times as to whether i'd EVER be able to stay sober. With the sub., i have no cravings whatsoever.
But having had 2 miscarriages, i am too nervous to take anything while i go thru this one. I can't handle living with the thought that i possibly had something to do with it.
Sorry to go on and on.....it's just nice to talk about my specific medication. And i truely believe that it has helped save lives. Every person is different, and so is there road to recovery. And if their road is in need of some help, then sub. can help them live a normal life and not constantly be ill with thoughts of using.
Keep in touch. :angel:

Good morning!

You are are all so nice! Reach, thank you especially for your kind words. You don't know how many of your messages I've found on these boards that I've copied and pasted and emailed to my personal email so I could read them again and again. This one just went there too!

You are so right. I hate being wishy washy. And yes, Chrissy, you too have a good point about quitting for me and not my daughter. I've tried to quit for her for several years and I feel like a bad mother when I don't and I really do need to do it for myself. I have such low self worth and low self esteem. I am successful and people on the outside really think I have it together, but on the inside I am just crumbling and holding on by a thread sometimes.

I am going to stick with this plan, staying on sub until I have many months of clarity, then getting counseling and in a 12 step so that I have the tools to stay straight after I come off of sub.

Oh Reach, I had to laugh when I read your post about the cigarettes. I too quit smoking at the first of the year and I was doing great until I slipped and thought I could just have one cigarette. It tasted awful at first but then it was better and then I bought a pack. I smoked 2 packs until I got ahold of myself. Now I have quit again but every day is a struggle. I can't believe I was too the point of hating the way smoke smells and thinking of myself as a non smoker and then boom, one cigarette and it's back on. I did the same thing with pills. The first time I quit, I went cold turkey from a 30 a day norco habit. I had 23 days of clean time and was finally feeling normal and happy. I found a norco on a bookshelf or something and took it and once I had that feeling in me again, it was no time at all that I was lining up prescriptions for more. At least this time I can truly say that I don't have any more in the house or anything. That was about 2 years ago and since then it's been back and forth, one relapse after another!

Spark, thanks for the advice on taking sub and hydro together. I asked my sub doc if that was safe and he said it wouldn't hurt but I probably wouldn't feel them. He said it might help with pain. This is another reason that I don't have any confidence in that guy to turn to him for a resource. He's just in it for the money but clueless.

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Have a good day everyone. And thanks!

Debbie

I want to say that I think that sub is a good option for someone who REALLY wants to get clean. I am on methadone personally because sub wasn't available to me when I was ready to get clean, and it is working for me.

What it will do for you when the dosage is right, is allow you to feel normal, not high at all, and not low either, just normal. You can get used to feeling normal and dealing with things as a normal person - things like your job, your relationships, other things in your life that your addiction has caused you to smash (in my case, my self esteem took a big hit and needed healing). When you are in a good "headspace" as a normal, nonhigh person, then you titrate off, with a doctor's help. Don't bring yourself off. Let someone who knows bring you down as a rate that will allow you to stay clean. By that time you will have lived "clean" for so long that titrating off will feel like a minor annoyance in an otherwise "together" life, like maybe sinus trouble or something, and you will have been clean for so long, you won't react to the discomfort like it is "craving", it will be an illness, like a cold is to you now. It will end just like a cold.

Don't try to do this all at once - behaving the way you are and your viewpoint on it are the things that make me aware that you are indeed an addict, just like me. We have a very real need for "high drama" activity. Just use your sub like you are supposed to and get used to a normal drama free life, with therapy if need be, then titrate off.

That if my advice - I know you didn't ask, but your post cried out to me, and I wanted to help you if I could, even a little bit. I have been clean with methadone for a year now, and am ready to come off. It has been a glorious year, a gift from God, that allowed me to repair a lot of my damaged life. Sub is better than the methadone, from what I understand, for what I am advocating. Anyone on here can say what they want to about methadone, and I don't care a bit - I know that I can stay clean, and I am happy for that, and proud of myself. I had no job, a husband that was furious with me, no car, and was sick every day. I couldn't eat, sleep, or function. Now I get up each day at 5:00, work out for an hour, shower, take my son to a wonderful summer camp, go to my GREAT job, and come home to cook dinner for my intact family, We play golf, go to the beach, the movies, the pool, etc. I have a life again, a good one, and if I can, then you can, no lie!!!

Please, please, please, love yourself enough to give yourself this gift. It is right there for you - you even have the sub in your posession!!!

walkersma/robin

Thanks so much Robin. Your post really got to me. I'm trying not to cry b/c I am at work but wow, thank you very much.

Debbie

Please don't cry - I just want you to see all the wonderful women you've got behind you, beside you, and WITH you, every step. Women are wonderful when we are supporting one another and I know that all of us can accomplish miracles together, just look what one of us can do alone!!

I have a little boy, and the day I went to methadone intake was the day I used his piano lesson money to buy pills. Until that day, my illness never touched him (yeah, right . . .). When I realized that he was doing without something I felt he needed because of me, I hated myself with a righteousness that got my butt down the road to the clinic, with the excuses flying out of the car window with each mile I drove. I got clean and you can/will to. We understand you; we KNOW you; and we will be here with you while you do your work.

Now stop that crying and get some work done! ;)

Robin/walkersma