Ok Copper, dig through those memory banks! What do you know about seratonin,tryptophan and 5-HTP? I'm interested in anything and everything on seratonin. I think that the sleep is a huge part of my FM problem,it's become very obvious now that I've crashed again after 4 weeks of GOOD sleep. I need to learn more about Seratonin since it was an SSRI that had such a huge impact on how I felt. Thanks in advance!

Until Copper gets back to you, I want to add that one thing for sure is that sleep deprivation does cause joint-muscle pain.

Thanks Friend, I was 100% convinced of that when I had to crawl out of bed in tears this morning for the first time in weeks. P A I N !!! This is really making me A N G R Y!!!! I'm going to be first in line at my doc's office when they open on Monday. But this whole episode has me wondering if maybe I'd be better off with a more natural supplement over these anti-depressants with all the side effects. If it works,fine, but I'm not thrilled about having to keep upping the dose on the Celexa.

Hey Ciocc!!! I sure hope you get to feeling better soon!

Val

Thanks Val! Just keep praying for me ok?

Copper, don't forget, you were going to give a seratonin lesson! Hope you enjoyed your vacation and are rested and feeling good. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif I would really like to know if there are things I can do to affect my Seratonin levels and get good stage 4 restorative sleep. The Celexa just isn't working any more (either that or the nicotine withdrawl is way stronger than I'm giving it credit for!) and I'm not getting good sleep. I am feeling pretty bad again, with increased pain and fatigue. I've tried Melatonin and Valerian and neither were particularly helpful.

Rach

OK, class, take your seats, it's time for Neurotransmitters: Serotonin 101. My name is Copper, and I will be your instructor today http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

With low or unstable levels of serotonin, vulnerability greatly increases negative responses to chronic pain (duh!), and susceptibility to migraines, PMS symptoms, clinical depression, IBS, and FMS, as well as the disorder known as Seasonal Affective Disorder (or SAD - the intitals SAD can ALSO refer to the Standard American Diet, which ALSO feeds the above disorders, but THAT's another story).

Anyway, the appropriate neurotransmitter production switches back and forth between producing Melatonin at night and Serotonin during the day. Melatonin is required for initiating and perpetuating sleep. If there is dysfunction in this 'switching' method, Melotonin production continues thoughout the day creating a shortage of serotonin (thus PROBABLY why the melatonin supps provided no relief. The valerian would just work to SLIGHTLY relax muscles and calm nerves). Rather than sleeping all the time because of too much melatonin, the DECREASE in serotonin causes many symptoms, including depression, lethargy, cravings for sweets and simple carbohydrates (breads, pasta, chips, etc), reduced libido, and cognitive dysfunction, lowered pain threshold, and magnification of existing pain, and interfere with sleep (Gee,sound like anyone[s] WE know!?!).

The menstrual cycle adds to the problem, as it naturally reduces serotonin levels to allow ovulation to occur. Just before the actual menstruation, serotonin levels drop even lower!

Living in areas with seasons of decreased sunlight (such as lovely [seriously!] Pennsylvania) can serve to exacerbate the problem, especially for those who remain indoors much of the time.

Vitamin D producing light, like sunlight, is essential to the functioning of the switching mechanism for melatonin/serotonin.

So, am I suggesting that all you eastcoasters pack up and move to sunny California? Oh no! Much as I love you all, please don't, it is getting WAY too crowded here in my sunny little valley http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/frown.gif!

But, there is hope, and an (relatively) easy solution:

Step 1: simply step outside several times during the day. It doesn't matter if the sun isn't shining, or even if it is snowing/raining outside - even without the sun, the fresh air will do wonders at lifting the spirits (there's that darn word again! LOL). Consider, even here in CA, we stay inside most of the winter, whether we're home or at work. We keep our shelters tightly closed, even blocking little gaps, etc. around windows and doors. While inside, we cook using a variety of substances, each with a smell or fume (natural gas, burnt food anyone?), use heaters (propane'ers out there?), maybe smoke, and, usually ALOT of breathing, animal odors/dander,fumes from cleanig/painting supplies, even furniture and carpets, and on and on. Even in a spotlessly clean house, just its' existance and the fact that we're there, too, creates a particular (stale) 'environment' to the inside air.

Step outside and DEEPLY breathe in the crispness of the air [unless you live next to a belching steele mill http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/eek.gif ] several times a day, or walk briskly and really get your lungs pumping. Alot of internall toxins (in lungs AND muscles) can be cleared this way, too.

Step 2: Use full-spectrum lighting. Light intensity is measured in 'lux'. A 'normally' lit room is WAYYYYYYY down the grid (about 200 lux) on a light intensity chart. Early afternoon on a summer day comes in at 100,000 lux!

The key does not lie in simply making your rooms much brighter, as TOO bright can damage the eyes, and STILL not provide the needed benefit. Full-spectrum lights also carry particular wavelengths that the sun produces, whereas traditional lights do not. It is these wavelengths that trigger beneficial biochemical actions, such as: ultraviolet rays (waves) activate the synthesis of vitamin D, decrease serum cholesterol, stimulate the thyroid and increase estrogen levels (too low estrogen can also trigger many of the same symptoms). One specific wavelength or another is utilized by every enzyme, mineral, and vitamin in your body.

Full-spectrum lights are available at most hardware stores. Higher quality lights, specifically designed for light therapy, are also available. I know I can't list a website for purchasing, but I'll put a toll free #, and HOPE that's OK: 1-800-468-1104. If it's NOT OK, I won't whine if I'm reprimanded, and I DO apologize!

To use lighting, it will require a minimum of 4 lights, each 48" long, and exposure not just to the eyes, but also the skin (more is better), for 1 hour per day.

The use of full-spectrum lighting provides a naturally non-invasive alternative to the use of SSRI's for increasing serotonin levels. Depending on the degree of deficiency, this may or may not provide TOTAL relief, and your dr. should definitely be consulted prior to ANY alterations in medication use. If versed in light-therapy, your healthcare provider may provide a local source for obtaining therapy lights.

This information is not intended to diagnose and/or treat any specific disorder, and is provided only as an educational resource.
_______________________

Well, cioc1212, there's a START for you. There are other ways to increase serotonin, too, so let me know if you want more info, OK? Tryptophan and 5-HTP are complete subjects in themselves, and will wait for another day. Hands (and butt!) say: enough for now!

Hugs,

------------------
Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

[This message has been edited by Copper (edited 02-22-2001).]

Ohhhhhhh Copper, my dad most likely has the lights and can loan them to me, he's been treated for SAD for years now. Sigh. I am positive that he's done light therapy. Sigh. I wonder if it runs in families, I'll bet it does! And thank you for the non-drug suggestion. Actually, the Celexa makes me so hot and sweaty that I've been running around coatless. I think I will clear a spot in the snow and set up my lawn chair and site outside several times a day. I will let you know how I make out Copper, thanks for the information!

BTW- I used to sit outside under my porch to smoke for 5-10 min at a time,at least 15-20 min a day. Could that have been giving me enought light to boost the seratonin? The good sleep quitting on me did coincide with the quitting smoking, the sleep started "dialing down" a few days after I quit (and I was using the nic. patch)

Originally posted by cioc1212:
Actually, the Celexa makes me so hot and sweaty that I've been running around coatless....BTW- I used to sit outside under my porch to smoke for 5-10 min at a time,at least 15-20 min a day. Could that have been giving me enought light to boost the seratonin? The good sleep quitting on me did coincide with the quitting smoking, the sleep started "dialing down" a few days after I quit (and I was using the nic. patch)

Have you had your estrogen levels checked lately. I went thru a yr. of thermal dysregulation before I finally thought to check that, and sure enough, I was way outta whack. Couldn't hurt (well, except for the needle prick -ouch!)

Sitting outside while smoking certainly drew more of the good stuff in than sitting in the house smoking would have. But, I'm pretty sure that the process of quitting smoking, in itself, may have had an effect on your sleep patterns, too. Withdrawal from ANY drug can be pretty disruptive!

How are you doing with the non-smoking? I'm doing AMAZINGLY well, and that's a real surprise! Nothing since 12/1/00, and I don't even think about it much. It has NEVER been this easy before, so I'm hoping this time will last.

Wierd thing is, I don't even know WHY it's been easy. I quit cold turkey, and haven't looked back. Didn't use any techniques or tools, yet it worked! The only thing I did differently this time was to literally throw cigarettes away. In past attempts, I always made myself feel really ucky but smoking like a chimney stack until I'd finished each one. This time, midnight hit, and I crumpled 'em up, and tossed 'em in the garbage.

Oh, oooooooops, sorry to ramble so far off track. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/redface.gif

------------------
Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

[This message has been edited by Copper (edited 02-24-2001).]

Copper,

I'd be willing to bet that you really were sick of the cigs and wanted to quit this time. The desire to quit is the biggest motivator to not smoking again and having an easy time. I haven't smoked but since I'm feeling bad again, I do want to smoke. I keep thinking "if I'm going to feel this bad.......I may as well just smoke..." But I'm still holding on! It's been since Jan 2nd

Congrats to you!!! It's such a hard habit to give up!!

[This message has been edited by cioc1212 (edited 05-31-2002).]

Hi Rach - funny thing here - you know that niece I told you about, the one that crashes into lamposts? Well, I just noticed your true name, and HER name is also Rachel - but I call her Rach!?!?! some coincidence!

Anyway, I found the following (re: insomnia) on another website (lef.org), so thought I'd share it with you:

>>>>Some people find that commercially available GABA taken before bedtime is helpful. Tryptophan is now available at compounding pharmacies and can be taken before bed. 5-Hydroxytryptophan is now available at most health food stores and can be taken before bed as well. Avoid taking vitamin B6 supplements within 6 hours of taking 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP) because B6 can cause the conversion of 5-HTP to serotonin in the blood before it has a chance to cross the blood-brain barrier to increase serotonin in the brain. Excessive serotonin in the blood can be dangerous, which is why it may be safer to use tryptophan rather than 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP). Both of these compounds can be converted to serotonin in the brain which plays a role in sleep. Patients taking SSRI antidepressants such as Prozac should consult with their physicians prior to taking these agents because the dose of antidepressant may need to be reduced. This is true for St. John's Wort as well.

While the long-term administration of valerian is not recommended, passion flower taken in moderation for short-to medium-term treatment of insomnia in conjunction with the other therapies mentioned may be helpful. It is available as a tea, in capsules, and as a tincture.

Some people use the herb valerian to fall asleep. Valerian produces a drug-like hypnotic effect within the central nervous system similar to benzodiazepine drugs such as Valium and Halcion. Since valerian-containing products often are promoted as natural herbal remedies, the public mistakenly believes they are safe to take on a regular basis. Studies indicate, however, that there is a possible toxicity risk when taking valerian over an extended period of time. Since a tolerance effect occurs with valerian due to its Valium-like properties, people often need to take greater and greater amounts of it as time goes by in order to continue to obtain the desired hypnotic (sleep-inducing) effect.<<<<

hope this helps


------------------
Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

Hi Copper, I'm actually RachAel, with an A but all my friends call me Rach. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif

Everything I read said that Tryptophan was pulled from the market by the FDA. I think the 5HTP is out there but I just don't know if I want to go messing around with my seratonin levels without medical advice. It's one thing to take a little extra magnesium but it's a whole other to go playing with your endocrine system! LOL!!
I think I'm going to try the light therapy, my dad is looking for the system and will bring it down to me in the next couple of weeks. In the meantime, it looks like I just have to suffer through. I have been trying to stand outside more often though and I think I've noticed a slight improvement but I'm not sure.

>>>>I'm actually RachAel, with an A but all my friends call me Rach. <<<<

OK, now this really IS a testament to the extent fibro fogs can take us to - so is my niece's name spelled that way. but, 31 years later, I'm having to stop and think about it, and STILL spelling it wrong! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/mad.gif

------------------
Copper
Let Miracles Replace all Grievances

Copper, my inlaws are still spelling my daughters name wrong and she's 4. They spell Carrie (short for Caroline) as Cary, like Cary Grant. Duh! And they don't have FM!!!