I started the Ornish diet about 1 1/2 months ago. The only modification I applied was not eating as many whole grains (eating a lot of veggies and fruits), and I have eaten avocados and all natural peanut butter. I am exercising about 25 mins a day (slowly building up to 1hour) 7 days a week, I have quit smoking, I don't drink, I am more active generally. My old numbers were HDL 29 LDL 110 new numbers (2 months later) HDL 30 LDL 131.

My question is why the increase in LDL when I have cut out all "bad" fats except the avocados and peanut butter?

She said my liver enzymes were still elevated (beacuse of fatty liver) but she has decided to put me on 10mg of Lipitor. I am assuming my cholesterol is high because of my fatty liver, my gallstones I have, and genetics (mom and dad had high cholesterol, grandma passed from hardening of arteries). Because it can't be my diet and I am exercising MORE than I did before. Meh.......

Thats discouraging for me to read since I just started doing this diet as well , maybe in some people the genetics ( your family history ) of the situation just requires the statins or supplements like Niacin or Red Yeast Rice to combat the cholesterol that your liver is overproducing?

... My old numbers were HDL 29 LDL 110 new numbers (2 months later) HDL 30 LDL 131.

My question is why the increase in LDL when I have cut out all "bad" fats except the avocados and peanut butter? ....

There are lots of different opinions on this, but IMHO Ornish got it all wrong. The only bad fat is trans fat. And depriving your self of adequate fat screws up the lipid profile. All those carbs you replace the fat with increases triglycerides. And HDL comes down.

LDL of 131 really isn't that high. It has been found that the optimal level of LDL from a longevity perspective is 80-160. Your LDL of 131 is comfortably within that range. And it may have gone up simply because your body needs more of it to function properly. Your HDL of 30 is way too low, however, probably because you eat so little saturated fat. Eggs are a very healthy superfood. And, as you are very active, are you getting enough protein?

Mark ;)

I don't want to discourage you from dieting, so please don't be discouraged, what does not work for me might work for you and vice versa. I have a lot of health problems for my age (26) which might be reasons why my cholesterol is wacky.

I don't eat meats in general and I didn't eat cheeses/milk but I have incorporated fat free cheese (moderation) into my vegan diet. I don't eat that many carbs either, I modified his diet because I am diabetic and incorporated more fruits/veggies.

Typical daily diet:

irish oatmeal with unsweetened soy milk and no sugar added strawberries

vegetarian cassarole "thing" (4 corn tortillas, soy meat substitute, spinach, homemade pinto beans, homemade tomato sauce) *id eat about 2 cups of this stuff in 2 diff meals*

and SOMEtimes, sugar free applesauce

so basically I get proteins from beans, and soy substitutes, I am not sure how much protein I should have, could you give me a guideline? :)

Yes, it is all confusing with so many different opinions, speculations,vested interests etc. Going by my own experience is that after being on a low fat diet because of being diagnosed with high cholesterol and going back to a more "normal" diet of animal fat, my HDL went from a low of 42 to 67. It seems to me that a high carb diet, trans fats, processed food in general are far more damaging to our health than animal fat.I feel there is so much hype regarding cholesterol and the drug companies have scared us half to death with their guidelines.The lower numbers all the better for them. We are all different and what works for one person does perhaps not work for someone else.My grand and great parents grew up on a diet high in animal fat and lived a long and healthy life. Must mean something!

and I have eaten avocados and all natural peanut butter.

That could be the Achille's Heel difference between your diet and Ornish's.
Remember, a key component of Ornish is it is a <10% fat calories diet. Whether the fats in avocado and peanut butter are good, bad, or indifferent there really is no place for them in the Ornish Diet, those two foods just have WAY too much fat to qualify.
An ounce of peanut butter is 16.1 grams of fat = 145 calories...that's about the entire fat quota for a person on the Ornish Diet. And WHO can stop at an ounce.
A California avocado is another 21 grams of fat.
A cup of soymilk adds another 5 grams.

Although Ornish puts a ZERO liimit on animal fats, the limit on vegetable fats is ALSO more stringent than any other diet...but that's probably why the diet gets such good results.

Thank god for statins becasue I could never live with the Ornish Diet.

In my opinion, Your problem is getting a higher HDL, your LDL isn't bad at all, my LDL is 150, but my HDL is 67. Of course the doc wanted to give me Lipitor for my LDL number but I refused it, when I pointed out my HDL/TC ratio was well under the guidelines, he said "oh yeah, you're right, I don't think he even looked at the ratio. My LDL might be a risk factor in itself, but I'll take my chances, I don' have any other risk factirs for heart disease right now, my blood pressure is normal to low.

I raised my HDL by 17 points and lowered my LDL by 50 points by changing my diet, I eat about 1/4 cup of walnuts/almonds daily, use olive oil, almond milk, drink red wine, eat grapes. I also take plant stereols and Policosonal (an HDL raiser). The fats you are staying away from are HDL raisers. Another thing you can do is switch to oat bran cereal (hot or cold) instead of eaing oatmeal. I read that oatmeal doesn't contain enough beta-glucan in it to lower LDL sufficiently, like oat bran does.

Did you know that the statin drugs like Lipitor deposit cholesterol in your gall bladder? The statins don't carry it out of your body like eating fiber does. Since you have that problem already, maybe you should discuss that side effect with your doctor.

My Mom has been on 40 mgs. of Lipitor for 2 years and her HDL is still the same at 30, but it lowered her LDL. If Lipitor doesn't raise your HDL, maybe it's not worth the risk of side effects for you.

Good Luck!

We need fat and it is bad and wrong to deprive our bodies of it. Avocados, for instance, has lots of healthy fats which is good, so why not eat them? Animal fat has also a lot of good nutrients. For many people, me included, statins does not agree. Many people have suffered liver problems, loss of muscle etc.I feel so much better now when I have stopped taking statins and gone back to a more relaxed diet of animal fat and vegetables. I stay well clear of high carbs, margarines and transfats etc. and as I said before my HDL has risen a great deal.Everything in moderation.

Fats in a nutshell...

Trans Fat...bad
Saturated fat...bad but not as bad as Trans Fat.
Polyunsaturated fat...okay in moderation
Monounsaturated fat...okay in moderation the best of all fats.

10% of fat a day is just wrong. It's too little and unhealthy. I can't believe anyone is advocating 10% or less a day.

The body NEEDS fat to survive. From what I read, we have too much Omega 6 fatty acids relative to Omeg 3s. We need to improve the ratio of Omega 6 to 3 from something like 20:1 to something in the rhelmof 4:1 or better 2:1.

25-30% fat in a day is okay as long as it is GOOD fat and the ratios are okay as indicated above. I can't say enough good about Fish oil and the like.. Walnuts, almonds etc.

I know that the Ornish diet is definately against eating avocados/pb and olive oil but I added them in to raise my HDL.

I can certainly try the Ornish diet as it's meant to be, but I forsee my HDL dropping more (which I DEF don't need) and my LDL lowering slightly...

I am just bummed that nothing so far has worked.

I've read on these boards countless times of slow flushing niacin (don't think I can take because of my fatty liver and gallbladder), drinking wine (can't because of liver), and statins (rather not take because of the horrible side effects ive heard), and I can't do any of those except take the statin in hopes I won't get the bad side effects.

Geez, guys,

all that talk about good/bad fats made me do something unforgivable...
I did something I simply never do. Got two slices of bread...buttered them up...the bread is history now and I am still here...:D

PS. While it tasted delicious, it is destined to remain a special treat.

Flowergirl

My uncle has a fatty liver and now eats organic food which he says will put less stress on his liver.

I read that eating one-half onion daily will raise HDL cholesterol by 25% in most people.

I heard that also jacal5, but I asked here on the boards and they said it was a myth *shrug* besides I DETEST onions :p

I don't always eat organic simply because it is expensive and I am on a budget. :( Otherwise I would LOVE to eat nothing but organic stuff <3

Glad you enjoyed that bread and butter :P

Ornish believes that HDL is used as a transport mechanism to remove harmful LDL. Thus he is willing to accept an average 9% decrease in HDL if accompanied witha corresponding 40% decrease in LDL. These are the numbers he claims to get with his Spartan diet.

I'd be curious to see what someone actually ACHIEVES while doing strict Ornish...I don't think anyone here has actually tried it.

Like I said, it;s way to hard for me to contemplate...a delicious 20 mg. Lipitor and 500 mg. slow release niacin at bedtime is SO much easier.:jester:

I am mixing in part of his diet , with exercise and also the statin lipitor...and soon niacin non flush..i cant do some of the ridiculous parts of his diet as I cant see me making that food he suggests..but i do a combo of the foods he says is good for you its just that my meals are repeated a lot but who cares..I get the good fats that I know are good for you through a little olive oil and omega 3 supplements and the good fats in the foods I now eat..its a little more fat then he suggests but its good for me...i hope.

Too funny flowergirl! this board has been a source of motivation for me!
Was it white bread? warm from the oven? oozing with butter???
my mouth is watering lol