bpmom07
09-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Hello all! I am new to this site. I am so glad I found you all!
A little history...My name is Michelle and I have a 13 year old daughter that was diagnosed with ADHD at 5 years old. She was put on Ritalin and then later Concerta for it and it worked well until she was 11. We were only seeing a pcp for her med refills and when the Concerta was no longer working well we switched her to Adderall XR and kept increasing the dose. She continued to get worse instead of better so I finally found a psych at age 12 and she was diagnosed with Bipolar 1 as well.
The psych never changed or stopped the Adderall, just added in Abilify, Lamictal, and Trazadone. After a year of this she still continued to get worse and I ended up putting her into the hospital. It turns out that the Adderall was making her manic and the rages she was having was also a result. They took her off the Adderall and took her off the Abilify and Trazadone, increased her Lamictal and added in Seroquel. Her Bipolar is now under control, but her ADHD isn't!
I am scared to put her back on stimulants since they were making her Bipolar worse, but I need something that will get her ADHD under control since now she's having all kinds of problems in school and her grades are horrible. Does anyone here have any ideas of what I can try with her that can get both disorders stable without setting the other one off?
TIA!
Michelle
A little history...My name is Michelle and I have a 13 year old daughter that was diagnosed with ADHD at 5 years old. She was put on Ritalin and then later Concerta for it and it worked well until she was 11. We were only seeing a pcp for her med refills and when the Concerta was no longer working well we switched her to Adderall XR and kept increasing the dose. She continued to get worse instead of better so I finally found a psych at age 12 and she was diagnosed with Bipolar 1 as well.
The psych never changed or stopped the Adderall, just added in Abilify, Lamictal, and Trazadone. After a year of this she still continued to get worse and I ended up putting her into the hospital. It turns out that the Adderall was making her manic and the rages she was having was also a result. They took her off the Adderall and took her off the Abilify and Trazadone, increased her Lamictal and added in Seroquel. Her Bipolar is now under control, but her ADHD isn't!
I am scared to put her back on stimulants since they were making her Bipolar worse, but I need something that will get her ADHD under control since now she's having all kinds of problems in school and her grades are horrible. Does anyone here have any ideas of what I can try with her that can get both disorders stable without setting the other one off?
TIA!
Michelle
Sponsor
goody2shuz
09-17-2007, 01:42 PM
Hi Michelle:wave: I am somewhat in the same boat as you having 2 daughters a 16 year old diagnosed a year ago with BP NOS/ADD Inattentive Type as well as a 19 year old diagnosed ADD/Mood Disorder NOS at one of Dr. Amen's clinics a few weeks ago with the use of SPECT Imaging.
From my understanding and findings most pdocs feel it is important to get the BP under control before even addressing the ADD because the symptoms of the two overlap and many times the ADD symptoms are taken care of as well. In my case my 16 year old has been stabilized for about 4 months right now on Lamictal and Seroquel. She had 4 hospitalizations within a year and we had been through the mill in that time. Prior to her diagnosis she was treated with Concerta and antidepressants which only worstened her condition but thankfully allowed for her to properly diagnosed much like your daughter. My daughter thankfully does well in school and even though she exhibits the lack of concentration and distractibility we feel that it isn't significant enough to add an ADD med which may upset her overall stabiity. If her grades were suffering we might be more inclined to do so but both the pdoc and ourselves seem to think that adding a stimulant wouldn't be in her best interest at this time. We will re-evaluate the situation if things worsten but for now are happy with our newfound stability.
Now as far as my other daughter....the comprehensive evaluation and SPECT Imaging done at the AMEN Clinic showed much more ADD involvement with hot spots in the area of her brain that controls moods as well. They suggested that she would benefit most by putting her on an anticonvulsant such as Lamictal and once at a therapeutic level if she still showed problems with concentration or getting stuck with a particular idea that we try her on the Daytrana patch. He suggested this because you can take it off and regulate it's effect so that the sleep isn't affected which is a big problem with the other meds and we all know how important sleep is for our kids with BP.
So even the AMEN clinic seems to support the belief that the moods must be stabilized before the ADD symptoms are addressed and re-evaluated after doing so. My older daughter is in her second year of college and is not quite yet up to a therapeutic level of the Lamictal but she too has had no problems maintaining grades. However, she has had a problem with using alcohol and weed more than we would like since the age of 14 and both the pdoc and ourselves feel that it is more due to the impulsiveness of the ADD/Mood Disorder as well as some self medicating on her part and with the proper meds that should improve as well.
So....we are in the same situation, so to speak...do we medicate for the ADD knowing that there is a possibility of threatening the stability of the BP???? I would suggest that you talk it out with your pdoc and come up with a plan that will be least likely to upset your daughter's overall stability and perhaps start slowly and keep a careful watch on her response to treating the ADD if that is what you decide to do.
Good luck and please keep us posted with how things go. There is another mom here, Lor, who is going through the same situation with her son. I am sure that you will be hearing from her as well as many others here.
So a BIG welcome to you & I look forward to seeing more of you here.
(((((HUGS)))))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
From my understanding and findings most pdocs feel it is important to get the BP under control before even addressing the ADD because the symptoms of the two overlap and many times the ADD symptoms are taken care of as well. In my case my 16 year old has been stabilized for about 4 months right now on Lamictal and Seroquel. She had 4 hospitalizations within a year and we had been through the mill in that time. Prior to her diagnosis she was treated with Concerta and antidepressants which only worstened her condition but thankfully allowed for her to properly diagnosed much like your daughter. My daughter thankfully does well in school and even though she exhibits the lack of concentration and distractibility we feel that it isn't significant enough to add an ADD med which may upset her overall stabiity. If her grades were suffering we might be more inclined to do so but both the pdoc and ourselves seem to think that adding a stimulant wouldn't be in her best interest at this time. We will re-evaluate the situation if things worsten but for now are happy with our newfound stability.
Now as far as my other daughter....the comprehensive evaluation and SPECT Imaging done at the AMEN Clinic showed much more ADD involvement with hot spots in the area of her brain that controls moods as well. They suggested that she would benefit most by putting her on an anticonvulsant such as Lamictal and once at a therapeutic level if she still showed problems with concentration or getting stuck with a particular idea that we try her on the Daytrana patch. He suggested this because you can take it off and regulate it's effect so that the sleep isn't affected which is a big problem with the other meds and we all know how important sleep is for our kids with BP.
So even the AMEN clinic seems to support the belief that the moods must be stabilized before the ADD symptoms are addressed and re-evaluated after doing so. My older daughter is in her second year of college and is not quite yet up to a therapeutic level of the Lamictal but she too has had no problems maintaining grades. However, she has had a problem with using alcohol and weed more than we would like since the age of 14 and both the pdoc and ourselves feel that it is more due to the impulsiveness of the ADD/Mood Disorder as well as some self medicating on her part and with the proper meds that should improve as well.
So....we are in the same situation, so to speak...do we medicate for the ADD knowing that there is a possibility of threatening the stability of the BP???? I would suggest that you talk it out with your pdoc and come up with a plan that will be least likely to upset your daughter's overall stability and perhaps start slowly and keep a careful watch on her response to treating the ADD if that is what you decide to do.
Good luck and please keep us posted with how things go. There is another mom here, Lor, who is going through the same situation with her son. I am sure that you will be hearing from her as well as many others here.
So a BIG welcome to you & I look forward to seeing more of you here.
(((((HUGS)))))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
bpmom07
09-17-2007, 09:47 PM
Thanks for the reply. Yes, her pdoc is wanting to see if what I'm seeing is still bp or adhd and sent a adhd checklist for her teachers to fill out. They haven't returned them yet.
I think I spoke too soon about her BP being under control. She is depressed tonight and crying over something that happened 4 years ago. Anyone have any advice on how to get her through this?
I think I spoke too soon about her BP being under control. She is depressed tonight and crying over something that happened 4 years ago. Anyone have any advice on how to get her through this?
goody2shuz
09-17-2007, 09:59 PM
Hi again, Michelle. When she is depressed and like that it will help to just hold her and let her know that you are there and that today everything seems bad but tomorrow is another day and that she won't always be feeling this bad. She needs to hear your calm voice that is reassurring and offers her hope that what she is feeling won't last forever, that you are there for her in the good times and bad. Ask her if there is anything that you can do to make her feel better.
If she gets any worse you may want to give the pdoc a call. Perhaps he will be able to suggest an increase in one of her meds. Usually the Lamictal works well for the depression and mood swings. Has anything happened in the past day or two that could have triggered this??? I know that with the seasonal changes our kids could get a little thrown off. There is sometimes a breakthrough of seasonal depression in the fall/winter months and a breakthrough mania that happens in the early to late spring. This occurred with my daughter but it was too soon to tell whether there was a true seasonal component to her Bipolar since she wasn't quite stabilized yet. This year will allow us to get a better picture since she has been stabilized for the past 4-5 months.
I hope this helps and that your daughter is feeling better soon.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
If she gets any worse you may want to give the pdoc a call. Perhaps he will be able to suggest an increase in one of her meds. Usually the Lamictal works well for the depression and mood swings. Has anything happened in the past day or two that could have triggered this??? I know that with the seasonal changes our kids could get a little thrown off. There is sometimes a breakthrough of seasonal depression in the fall/winter months and a breakthrough mania that happens in the early to late spring. This occurred with my daughter but it was too soon to tell whether there was a true seasonal component to her Bipolar since she wasn't quite stabilized yet. This year will allow us to get a better picture since she has been stabilized for the past 4-5 months.
I hope this helps and that your daughter is feeling better soon.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
jules3
09-17-2007, 10:07 PM
Hi my son is in the same boat as your daughter only hes older..hes 21 and suffers mostly form depression..i know he has some kind of add, but he can easily go the other way and be hyper and stay up for no kiddin days at a time..so we dont even go there with those meds. i agrree with goody, the bp has to be under control with the right meds and she needs to be stable awhile before you do anything about the add. i swear ,its horrible to see tham depressed. and girls..wher, i can only imagine, throw in some hormones and it must be a nightmare..
bpmom07
09-17-2007, 10:38 PM
No big changes lately. She's just been thinking of a old friend that we had to move away from suddenly 4 years ago and was crying that she missed him and never got to say goodbye. She didn't even know why she was crying like it was the end of the world and couldn't understand why she couldn't stop thinking about him. I did as you suggested and once she got control of herself she stopped crying and was back to normal.
Do you think it could be the seasonal changes? We are having some crazy weather here lately. It'll be cold for a couple of days and then get hot again. Today was a hot one and she spent the entire evening outside playing and didn't get to crying until after she took her evening dose of Seroquel.
Getting ahold of her pdoc is next to impossible. We live in a small town and he only comes to town once or twice a month and he usually won't do any med changes without seeing her first and he's booked until our appointment on Oct. 8th.
ETA: She did get her afternoon dose of Lamictal 2 hours late today. I'm not used to her taking an afternoon dose and totally forgot *blushes*
Do you think it could be the seasonal changes? We are having some crazy weather here lately. It'll be cold for a couple of days and then get hot again. Today was a hot one and she spent the entire evening outside playing and didn't get to crying until after she took her evening dose of Seroquel.
Getting ahold of her pdoc is next to impossible. We live in a small town and he only comes to town once or twice a month and he usually won't do any med changes without seeing her first and he's booked until our appointment on Oct. 8th.
ETA: She did get her afternoon dose of Lamictal 2 hours late today. I'm not used to her taking an afternoon dose and totally forgot *blushes*
goody2shuz
09-17-2007, 10:47 PM
Sounds like you were able to get things under control. I know that my daughter seems to get stuck on the losses in her life...that is a big thing with BP their inability to handle losses whether it be through a death, a move, a divorce or a friendship. Before my daughter was properly diagnosed she was hospitalized after having a fight with a few of her friends and after breaking up with her BF. She seems to do a little bit better with that now that she is properly medicated but a few months ago when my brother (her uncle) was not doing well with his health and had to go into hospice care, she didn't do well with that and the pdoc upped her Seroquel by 25mgs every 8 hours as needed....we also do this the week of her period since that is when her frustrations and irritability seem to cause her problems. So when you go in to see the pdoc in Oct. you may want to come up with a plan to be able to make some med adjustments on a need to be basis.
I hope that your daughter does alright until her next pdoc visit.
We are here if things get tough or you need to vent.
(((HUGS))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
I hope that your daughter does alright until her next pdoc visit.
We are here if things get tough or you need to vent.
(((HUGS))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
Lor60
09-17-2007, 11:31 PM
Welcome Michelle,
I'm glad you found the board. It has helped me to be able to "talk" to moms and people with BP who are going through some of the same things we are.
It sounds like you have been through a lot with your daughter. I'm glad she is doing a little better now. My son is almost 14 and began having problems about two years ago. We have been given numerous dx and seen many docs. Things are not perfect yet but he is doing better. My son is currently taking lamictal and abilify and is more stable than we have seen him in two years.
Since he returned to school, he is complainig of difficulty focusing and trouble with his memory. His pdoc feels he may have ADHD and started him on strattera. This was his recommendation because the staterra is not a stimulant so it would be less likely to induce mania or depression. He is starting it at a low dose. So far Drew does not notice any difference.
I am not convinced he is ADHD. When he was younger he had trouble sitting still but did well in school and seemed to be able to focus when he needed to.These problems began after his lamictal was increased to the therapeutic dose so I'm afraid they may be related to the medication. Drew really wanted to try the staterra so my husband and I agreed reluctantly.
Our tdoc is not a big fan of strattera. He has not seen it to be that effective and says it makes some kids irritable.
Well, I hope this information helps a little.
I hope you continue to post. This board has been a lifesaver for me.
Lor:)
I'm glad you found the board. It has helped me to be able to "talk" to moms and people with BP who are going through some of the same things we are.
It sounds like you have been through a lot with your daughter. I'm glad she is doing a little better now. My son is almost 14 and began having problems about two years ago. We have been given numerous dx and seen many docs. Things are not perfect yet but he is doing better. My son is currently taking lamictal and abilify and is more stable than we have seen him in two years.
Since he returned to school, he is complainig of difficulty focusing and trouble with his memory. His pdoc feels he may have ADHD and started him on strattera. This was his recommendation because the staterra is not a stimulant so it would be less likely to induce mania or depression. He is starting it at a low dose. So far Drew does not notice any difference.
I am not convinced he is ADHD. When he was younger he had trouble sitting still but did well in school and seemed to be able to focus when he needed to.These problems began after his lamictal was increased to the therapeutic dose so I'm afraid they may be related to the medication. Drew really wanted to try the staterra so my husband and I agreed reluctantly.
Our tdoc is not a big fan of strattera. He has not seen it to be that effective and says it makes some kids irritable.
Well, I hope this information helps a little.
I hope you continue to post. This board has been a lifesaver for me.
Lor:)
bpmom07
09-18-2007, 12:06 AM
Thanks for the welcome! It really does help to finally have somewhere to go. I have felt that I have been going through this all alone. I am also a single mom so I HAVE been all alone. I do plan on hanging out here a lot!
Another quick question....What is the therapeutic dose of Lamictal? Amanda takes 100mg in the morning and again after school.
Another quick question....What is the therapeutic dose of Lamictal? Amanda takes 100mg in the morning and again after school.
Lor60
09-18-2007, 12:34 AM
My son takes 200mg at night. He is 120lbs. When we were increasing him we began to see some improvement at 100mg but it didn't last. The same thing happened at 150mg, but at 200 the improvements stuck. Our pdoc told us this is usually the minimum therapeutic dose. It may be different though if your daughter is on a combination of mood stabilizers.
It must be hard being a single mom and dealing with this alone. Sometimes I feel like it is all I talk about with my husband.
It must be hard being a single mom and dealing with this alone. Sometimes I feel like it is all I talk about with my husband.
langlee
09-18-2007, 06:05 PM
Hi Michelle and welcome,
My son is 16 and last year finally convinced the pdoc to try meds for the ADHD. He started slowly on Concerta (I know Amanda was on that before she was diagnosed) and found it to make a big difference. He is larger than Lor's son (about 175 lbs), but tolerated the Concerta well with the BP meds and noticed a difference right away.
My son is onn 300 mg of Lamictal a day, taking 150 in the AM and 150 in the PM. I believe Lamictal can go as high as 400 mg.
You've come to the right place, Michelle. Lots of caring people here.
Always,
Hope
My son is 16 and last year finally convinced the pdoc to try meds for the ADHD. He started slowly on Concerta (I know Amanda was on that before she was diagnosed) and found it to make a big difference. He is larger than Lor's son (about 175 lbs), but tolerated the Concerta well with the BP meds and noticed a difference right away.
My son is onn 300 mg of Lamictal a day, taking 150 in the AM and 150 in the PM. I believe Lamictal can go as high as 400 mg.
You've come to the right place, Michelle. Lots of caring people here.
Always,
Hope
langlee
09-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Lor-
We had the same thing with Zac in terms of the ADHD diagnosis. Everyone was resistant to giving him the meds becasue he did so well in school, but when I thought back to elementary school, I realized he had a hard time sitting still. (His favorite activity was going to visit the nurse and just hanging out with her) His teachers always thought he didn't sit still because he was so bright and they assumed he was bored.
From what I've read, high-performing kids are often not diagnosed until Middle School or High School when the workload gets more intense. They are able to compensate in elementary school and get the work done, but the volume of work in the higher grades, combined with the multi-tasking and lack of focus can become overwhelming. That's not true for everyone, obviously, but it's something to watch as Drew tries the Strattera.
Just a thought.
Love,
Hope
We had the same thing with Zac in terms of the ADHD diagnosis. Everyone was resistant to giving him the meds becasue he did so well in school, but when I thought back to elementary school, I realized he had a hard time sitting still. (His favorite activity was going to visit the nurse and just hanging out with her) His teachers always thought he didn't sit still because he was so bright and they assumed he was bored.
From what I've read, high-performing kids are often not diagnosed until Middle School or High School when the workload gets more intense. They are able to compensate in elementary school and get the work done, but the volume of work in the higher grades, combined with the multi-tasking and lack of focus can become overwhelming. That's not true for everyone, obviously, but it's something to watch as Drew tries the Strattera.
Just a thought.
Love,
Hope
bpmom07
09-18-2007, 07:47 PM
Thanks Hope! I would love to have her on something, but I don't trust myself to tell the difference between the BP and the ADHD. I just know right now she's not having her rages anymore, but she is very hyper, impulsive, easily irratated and lacks focus. She is getting F's in all 4 major classes (Math, Language Arts, Science, and Social Studies) and I have a way to check her work online and she's either not turning in her work, or it's being turned in 1/2 done or rushed through.
The school is in the process of seeing if she qualifies for a IEP but I'm not hopeful. I asked them last year and they said she didn't qualify because they deemed the problems she was having as being a normal teenager. Last time she only had the diagnosis of ADHD and just a quick note from her pcp stating as such. This time I have a letter written by the hospital social worker and signed by the hospital pdoc stating what her diagnosis is and the problems it causes in school. Keep your fingers crossed for us please.
The school is in the process of seeing if she qualifies for a IEP but I'm not hopeful. I asked them last year and they said she didn't qualify because they deemed the problems she was having as being a normal teenager. Last time she only had the diagnosis of ADHD and just a quick note from her pcp stating as such. This time I have a letter written by the hospital social worker and signed by the hospital pdoc stating what her diagnosis is and the problems it causes in school. Keep your fingers crossed for us please.
Paige1989
09-18-2007, 08:27 PM
Hope, you're right about the 400mg. of Lamictal. My pdoc said that was the maximum dosage, which is what I'm on now.
Chellemom, good luck with your daughter. :) The signed note should help...I know when I asked about a 504 Plan, my counselor kind of brushed it off since I do really well in school and when I start to crash, my teachers are understanding so I let it drop. I figured if it came to a point where I really needed it to keep up, I could always go back and ask, but I'm a senior this year so I probably won't go for one this late in the game. It's better to get started earlier, like you are doing. :) I think I might be ADD as well, but it doesn't interfere with my schoolwork...I just kind of self-study to compensate for my lack of focus in class. This year I'm doing much better, though, so I'm starting to think it was more Bipolar than it was ADD because I'm finally stable, or as stable as I've been in a while. It's not perfect, but it's good enough to keep me content until my next pdoc appt. ^_^
So, good luck to Amanda and with any luck, you'll be in the IEP Process soon...but it's a lengthy process from what I've read, which is probably why the school is reluctant. You just have to keep pushing for it. :)
~~Paige
Chellemom, good luck with your daughter. :) The signed note should help...I know when I asked about a 504 Plan, my counselor kind of brushed it off since I do really well in school and when I start to crash, my teachers are understanding so I let it drop. I figured if it came to a point where I really needed it to keep up, I could always go back and ask, but I'm a senior this year so I probably won't go for one this late in the game. It's better to get started earlier, like you are doing. :) I think I might be ADD as well, but it doesn't interfere with my schoolwork...I just kind of self-study to compensate for my lack of focus in class. This year I'm doing much better, though, so I'm starting to think it was more Bipolar than it was ADD because I'm finally stable, or as stable as I've been in a while. It's not perfect, but it's good enough to keep me content until my next pdoc appt. ^_^
So, good luck to Amanda and with any luck, you'll be in the IEP Process soon...but it's a lengthy process from what I've read, which is probably why the school is reluctant. You just have to keep pushing for it. :)
~~Paige
langlee
09-18-2007, 11:45 PM
You definitely have to advocate for an IEP because, as Paige said, it's a lengthy process and it also has financial implications for the school so they are always resistant. If you have time, you should do some research on line. There is quite a bit of information available about the differences between an IEP and a 504.
We fought hard to get my son his IEP, but it has helped alot. He has tremendous sleep issues so he is medically excused from gym this year, which the school made 1st period, so he doesn't go in until 2nd period. That helped alot. Also, as a classified student he gets a study skills class. At first he didn't want it, but now he realizes it gives him a chance to decompress, to catch up and to have another advocate in his study skills teacher if he needs one.
I will tell you, Michelle, that the school will not do it willingly, but if Amanda is doing so poorly and she is now diagnosed, you should be able to fight for it and get it.
Good luck and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Always,
Hope
We fought hard to get my son his IEP, but it has helped alot. He has tremendous sleep issues so he is medically excused from gym this year, which the school made 1st period, so he doesn't go in until 2nd period. That helped alot. Also, as a classified student he gets a study skills class. At first he didn't want it, but now he realizes it gives him a chance to decompress, to catch up and to have another advocate in his study skills teacher if he needs one.
I will tell you, Michelle, that the school will not do it willingly, but if Amanda is doing so poorly and she is now diagnosed, you should be able to fight for it and get it.
Good luck and if you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Always,
Hope
bpmom07
09-18-2007, 11:49 PM
How do I fight if they turn her down? I don't have the money to hire a lawyer.
langlee
09-19-2007, 12:23 PM
I believe there are state agencies that can help. There is an organization called NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) that has all kinds of resources and you might want to start there and get referrals. There is also a group called the Child and Adolescent Bipolar Foundation that might be able to help. It should not take a lawyer.
There is also someone who visits the boards occassionally named rudiraven. Check out her postings. I think she might have given some suggestions of who to contact.
Good luck and keep asking questions. You'll get there and I'll be happy to help in any way I can.
Always,
Hope
There is also someone who visits the boards occassionally named rudiraven. Check out her postings. I think she might have given some suggestions of who to contact.
Good luck and keep asking questions. You'll get there and I'll be happy to help in any way I can.
Always,
Hope
goody2shuz
09-19-2007, 03:02 PM
Hope is right, Michelle. There are Parent Advocates who will be more than happy to take the time to steer you in the right direction. When my daughter was discharged from the hospital just before she was due to start school again, I called the closest NAMI and they put me in touch with a woman who sent me out all the information and was all prepared to accompany me every step of the way. So make a few phonecalls and hopefully you will be all prepared in case they don't accomodate your daughter.
I think that it would be a good thing for you to line up a meeting with the school social worker, psychologist, principal and guidance counselor to discuss the need for your daughter to be accomodated. Bring some information about BP in kids and how educators can assist these kids in getting an education that they are entitled to with some provisions.
When I met with my daughter's team of educators I went in saying "I don't think that we need a 504 or IEP at this point in time but there are some things that we think that Erin needs in order to keep the stress levels down and accomodate some basic needs." I told them that if she could be excused from gym when having side effects to her meds, be able to bring a water bottle in to keep up her need for lots of fluids, be able to meet with the social worker/psychologist once a week or as needed so that she knew she had somebody to come to if need be, and that any behavioral changes be brought to our attention so that we can readily be aware of her need for further support., that we didn't see a need to go any further unless Erin further deteriorated. I mentioned that I had spoken to a Parent Advocate who would be available to assist me if Erin needed more accomodations but that for now if they could accomodate these few things we could avoid that. They were more than accomodating and even handed me the forms if we saw a need to implement a 504 plan or IEP which in our case hasn't been necessary.
However, in your daughter's case I can see that she is going to require more support since her grades are suffering which wasn't really the case for my daughter. I would approach it in the same way by calling a meeting and discussing your overall concerns and your daughter's needs. And if they can not accomodate her then tell them that you are going to fill out the forms for a 504 and/or IEP. Also, inform them that you have been advised to do this and it is your intention to make sure that your daughter gets the best education that she is entitled to by State Law.
Talk to somebody so that you are prepared and if need be bring that person with you to the meeting. I had my husband with me and if you are a single mom then you should have some support as well.
Good luck and please know that you always have our love and support.
Love ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
I think that it would be a good thing for you to line up a meeting with the school social worker, psychologist, principal and guidance counselor to discuss the need for your daughter to be accomodated. Bring some information about BP in kids and how educators can assist these kids in getting an education that they are entitled to with some provisions.
When I met with my daughter's team of educators I went in saying "I don't think that we need a 504 or IEP at this point in time but there are some things that we think that Erin needs in order to keep the stress levels down and accomodate some basic needs." I told them that if she could be excused from gym when having side effects to her meds, be able to bring a water bottle in to keep up her need for lots of fluids, be able to meet with the social worker/psychologist once a week or as needed so that she knew she had somebody to come to if need be, and that any behavioral changes be brought to our attention so that we can readily be aware of her need for further support., that we didn't see a need to go any further unless Erin further deteriorated. I mentioned that I had spoken to a Parent Advocate who would be available to assist me if Erin needed more accomodations but that for now if they could accomodate these few things we could avoid that. They were more than accomodating and even handed me the forms if we saw a need to implement a 504 plan or IEP which in our case hasn't been necessary.
However, in your daughter's case I can see that she is going to require more support since her grades are suffering which wasn't really the case for my daughter. I would approach it in the same way by calling a meeting and discussing your overall concerns and your daughter's needs. And if they can not accomodate her then tell them that you are going to fill out the forms for a 504 and/or IEP. Also, inform them that you have been advised to do this and it is your intention to make sure that your daughter gets the best education that she is entitled to by State Law.
Talk to somebody so that you are prepared and if need be bring that person with you to the meeting. I had my husband with me and if you are a single mom then you should have some support as well.
Good luck and please know that you always have our love and support.
Love ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
bpmom07
09-19-2007, 03:34 PM
Thanks everyone! Where do I find these IEP support people for my area? I think I need it now more then ever while waiting for the school to finish the assessments! I'm crying right now because I just got off the phone with her school and she has to do a Saturday detention because yesterday during P.E. she wrote FU in the dirt of a car and it turned out to be the vp's car.
goody2shuz
09-19-2007, 03:45 PM
Michelle ~ Go to the NAMI website and look for facilities in your area....they will have phone numbers and explain your daughter's situation and if they have anyone that they could direct you to for advice regarding 504 and IEPs. Also....while on the phone with them you might want to ask what support is available for your daughter as well as yourself in your area. Lots of times they have support groups and there is a wonderful program that Tsohl raves about called Family to Family. Ask about that too....it is a 9 or 10 week program for those who have a family member with mental illness.
Go make that phone call and let us know where you get.
Also.....if it helps any, my daughter was suspended 3 times last year for doing impulsive things while hypomanic. She is doing well now so hang in there....your daughter needs to be stabilized and when she is things will be sooo much better.
Sending you lots of (((((HUGS))))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
Go make that phone call and let us know where you get.
Also.....if it helps any, my daughter was suspended 3 times last year for doing impulsive things while hypomanic. She is doing well now so hang in there....your daughter needs to be stabilized and when she is things will be sooo much better.
Sending you lots of (((((HUGS))))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
langlee
09-19-2007, 04:32 PM
Michelle-
We're here for you! Goody's point is a great one about calling the meeting with the social worker, school psychologist and guidance counselor. (some schools will have the principal or vice-principal attend, others won't). As Goody said, you need to sit down with them and explain Amanda's situation and bring some materials so they understand the challenges she is facing while trying to get stabilized. Most schools do not understand bipolar at all and they judge the children by the behaviors they exhibit. (Amanda's failing, Amanda's writing terrible things in the dirt, etc.) Or, they'll say they know of other children with BP and they are not acting like Amanda!!! (ugh!)
So, the more information you can bring, the calmer you can be in your discussion of the challenges, the better chance you have of the school understanding Amanda's special needs.
Check out NAMI and start your phone calls right away! There is help for Amanda. One thing I'd like to point out is that a 504 offers accomodations, such as extensions on homework, but is not a classification and does not involve any financial responsibility on the school's part. An IEP is part of the classification process and does involve financial responsibility. I believe someone told me that the responsibility lasts until the child is 21, but don't quote me on that!
Always,
Hope
We're here for you! Goody's point is a great one about calling the meeting with the social worker, school psychologist and guidance counselor. (some schools will have the principal or vice-principal attend, others won't). As Goody said, you need to sit down with them and explain Amanda's situation and bring some materials so they understand the challenges she is facing while trying to get stabilized. Most schools do not understand bipolar at all and they judge the children by the behaviors they exhibit. (Amanda's failing, Amanda's writing terrible things in the dirt, etc.) Or, they'll say they know of other children with BP and they are not acting like Amanda!!! (ugh!)
So, the more information you can bring, the calmer you can be in your discussion of the challenges, the better chance you have of the school understanding Amanda's special needs.
Check out NAMI and start your phone calls right away! There is help for Amanda. One thing I'd like to point out is that a 504 offers accomodations, such as extensions on homework, but is not a classification and does not involve any financial responsibility on the school's part. An IEP is part of the classification process and does involve financial responsibility. I believe someone told me that the responsibility lasts until the child is 21, but don't quote me on that!
Always,
Hope
rudiraven
09-19-2007, 05:13 PM
Hi Chelle & everyone.......
If your daughter is failing all her core classes a referral should have been made by her teachers. This may be the case because I think you mentioned you were waiting for the assessments to be completed. In the event that she does not qualify as learning disabled according to their testing (I think there has to be a 16 point discrepancy between IQ & achievement) then ask that she qualify under OHI (other health impaired). Her DR. can complete a form they will give you stating that her condition impairs her ability to function in the classroom without accommodations/modifications. Don't let the school bully you. You have rights as a parent under IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). It's federal law and they must comply. If they still refuse to give you satisfaction, contact the superintendent and/or
Director of Special Education and tell them you wish to file a "due process" with the State Board of Education. As mentioned by others on this board, there are Parent Advocates that can help you, too. When you signed consent for testing they should have given you a pamphlet outlining your rights. Usually there is a contact number if you have quesstions or problems. Good luck and keep us posted. :)
If your daughter is failing all her core classes a referral should have been made by her teachers. This may be the case because I think you mentioned you were waiting for the assessments to be completed. In the event that she does not qualify as learning disabled according to their testing (I think there has to be a 16 point discrepancy between IQ & achievement) then ask that she qualify under OHI (other health impaired). Her DR. can complete a form they will give you stating that her condition impairs her ability to function in the classroom without accommodations/modifications. Don't let the school bully you. You have rights as a parent under IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). It's federal law and they must comply. If they still refuse to give you satisfaction, contact the superintendent and/or
Director of Special Education and tell them you wish to file a "due process" with the State Board of Education. As mentioned by others on this board, there are Parent Advocates that can help you, too. When you signed consent for testing they should have given you a pamphlet outlining your rights. Usually there is a contact number if you have quesstions or problems. Good luck and keep us posted. :)
bpmom07
09-19-2007, 06:12 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone. I looked up the NAMI website and sent an email to them.
The school did send a packet to me saying the special ed department received my request to eval Amanda and they are proceeding according to the law and also sent a copy of the procedural safeguards as required by IDEA. They also included the phone number to the process coordinator at the middle school. I sent her a email requesting some supports be in place while we wait on the IEP process and also sent her some links I had on the educational issues for children with Bipolar Disorder.
Now I don't know how I should punish her for her little stunt or if I even should. What do you ladies think? I have talked with her about it and she's still depressive and highly irritated so I didn't get far with all her crying. She said she didn't know why she did it and knows it was wrong. I tried to ground her for a week and she felt that was too harsh and so I asked what she thought was fair and she agreed to no TV for a week.
The school did send a packet to me saying the special ed department received my request to eval Amanda and they are proceeding according to the law and also sent a copy of the procedural safeguards as required by IDEA. They also included the phone number to the process coordinator at the middle school. I sent her a email requesting some supports be in place while we wait on the IEP process and also sent her some links I had on the educational issues for children with Bipolar Disorder.
Now I don't know how I should punish her for her little stunt or if I even should. What do you ladies think? I have talked with her about it and she's still depressive and highly irritated so I didn't get far with all her crying. She said she didn't know why she did it and knows it was wrong. I tried to ground her for a week and she felt that was too harsh and so I asked what she thought was fair and she agreed to no TV for a week.
Paige1989
09-19-2007, 06:19 PM
'Ello. :)
I'm seventeen and have been dx'ed BP for two years, have shown symptoms for seven, and was probably cyclothymic before that. Just my basic background. Anyway, I think the no TV for a week is pretty fair considering she has the additional Saturday detention. If she knows it's wrong, then there's probably guilt there as well...altogether, I think the punishment is fair with all outside contributing factors. I know I'm not an expert, but I'm judging on what my Mom usually does with my younger brother who can be a NIGHTMARE at times. :S Latest stunt was taking a pellet gun to a school sponsored event to show his friends. :S But obviously that is much more severe...and his punishment was as well. But now I'm rambling...
~~Paige
I'm seventeen and have been dx'ed BP for two years, have shown symptoms for seven, and was probably cyclothymic before that. Just my basic background. Anyway, I think the no TV for a week is pretty fair considering she has the additional Saturday detention. If she knows it's wrong, then there's probably guilt there as well...altogether, I think the punishment is fair with all outside contributing factors. I know I'm not an expert, but I'm judging on what my Mom usually does with my younger brother who can be a NIGHTMARE at times. :S Latest stunt was taking a pellet gun to a school sponsored event to show his friends. :S But obviously that is much more severe...and his punishment was as well. But now I'm rambling...
~~Paige
rudiraven
09-19-2007, 06:21 PM
Chelle,
Seems like you're on your way with the school and evaluation process. You're doing everything right ;). As far as the punishment for her stunt, I'll leave that up to the Moms that deal with this on a daily basis. I'm sure Goody will have some good suggestions :) . Any other education questions, I'll be glad to help. :)
Seems like you're on your way with the school and evaluation process. You're doing everything right ;). As far as the punishment for her stunt, I'll leave that up to the Moms that deal with this on a daily basis. I'm sure Goody will have some good suggestions :) . Any other education questions, I'll be glad to help. :)
goody2shuz
09-19-2007, 07:25 PM
I think that the week with no TV is adequate and I like the idea that you asked your daughter what she thought the punishment should be. I didn't do that with my daughter but eventually learned to. Sometimes the punishment didn't fit the crime especially when she already had a punishment coming from the school. But the things that she did just were so awful and it is important that we let our kids know that BP or not, there WILL always be consequences to their behaviors and actions. So I learned to compromise and take into account that many of her actions were part of her illness. This all comes in time and it sounds as if you are handling things wonderfully.;)
When my daughter was unstable she didn't know why she did what she did either....it's the impulsiveness and not being able to think before acting. Once your daughter is on the right meds this should get better.
Well you had a busy day.....it will get better....I was where you are last year and it looked as if things would never get better but they have, they really have. And when you look back on it you will be so glad that you did all that you did for your daughter. You will know when there is a smile on her face and she is able to handle everyday happenings without falling apart or you only see the usual teenage behavior and are content with that while all the other moms around you complain. And you think to yourself how lucky they are that they didn't have to experience all that you did and how you never thought you would be feeling so relieved as you do at that moment.
Of course, this is all new to me this newfound stability.....I don't know how long it will last but for now I welcome it and can finally take a deep breath in and not hold it anymore waiting for the next thing to happen. And it is such a wonderful feeling and I am here to tell you that your time will come too.
It may not last forever but the good thing that I will always know is that I am not alone and that there are other wonderful people here who will help me through.
Hang in there Michelle and know that there are better days to come.
Love ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
When my daughter was unstable she didn't know why she did what she did either....it's the impulsiveness and not being able to think before acting. Once your daughter is on the right meds this should get better.
Well you had a busy day.....it will get better....I was where you are last year and it looked as if things would never get better but they have, they really have. And when you look back on it you will be so glad that you did all that you did for your daughter. You will know when there is a smile on her face and she is able to handle everyday happenings without falling apart or you only see the usual teenage behavior and are content with that while all the other moms around you complain. And you think to yourself how lucky they are that they didn't have to experience all that you did and how you never thought you would be feeling so relieved as you do at that moment.
Of course, this is all new to me this newfound stability.....I don't know how long it will last but for now I welcome it and can finally take a deep breath in and not hold it anymore waiting for the next thing to happen. And it is such a wonderful feeling and I am here to tell you that your time will come too.
It may not last forever but the good thing that I will always know is that I am not alone and that there are other wonderful people here who will help me through.
Hang in there Michelle and know that there are better days to come.
Love ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
bpmom07
09-19-2007, 08:21 PM
Hang in there Michelle and know that there are better days to come.
From your lips......I so hope that you are right! I must be honest and say I feel that getting her stable may never happen and this is what the rest of my life will look like. I was really hoping and expecting to get my little girl back once she left the hospital, but that is just not the case. But at least she's no longer having rages and threatening to hurt herself.
I'm also starting to wonder if she'll be able to do the normal teen stuff with her peers. Will she ever have a boyfriend? Boys think of her as one of the guys, not girlfriend material :( . Can I trust her to learn to drive and get behind the wheel of a car? (That is coming way faster then I want to admit to myself!) You get the idea.
From your lips......I so hope that you are right! I must be honest and say I feel that getting her stable may never happen and this is what the rest of my life will look like. I was really hoping and expecting to get my little girl back once she left the hospital, but that is just not the case. But at least she's no longer having rages and threatening to hurt herself.
I'm also starting to wonder if she'll be able to do the normal teen stuff with her peers. Will she ever have a boyfriend? Boys think of her as one of the guys, not girlfriend material :( . Can I trust her to learn to drive and get behind the wheel of a car? (That is coming way faster then I want to admit to myself!) You get the idea.
goody2shuz
09-19-2007, 09:04 PM
Oh yes, Michelle, I get the idea!!;) Been there, done that!! My daughter had more guy friends than girl friends and still does. She does have a difficult time with friends still, I think it is a self esteem issue more than anything else. She also knows that the girls all know about her BP and the things that she has done while unstable and is somewhat embaressed by that. She has one close girlfriend but she is busy with sports leaving very little time for them to get together. Erin has a boyfriend and believe it or not he understands her and seems to be able to handle her moods that are still part of her life but at a manageable degree. She is upset that it affects her interaction with her BF at times but she is learning that this usually happens after she hasn't had enough sleep or has forgotten to take her meds or has taken them late or sometimes even situational when something stressful happens. She is learning to manage this and the more that she is able to be in situations the more she will learn the coping skills that she needs to use in addition to the meds. One thing that it took me some tiime to understand is that the meds are going to do only so much....you can't medicate it away. The rest is going to come from self awareness and insight and I already see that happening with Erin and it will for Amanda too.
I was standing right where you are thinking that my daughter will NEVER have a normal life and that is not so. True she will have more sensitivity to stress and events that are emotionally charged, but I am confident that she will be able to learn how to manage that.
I have another daughter who is at college who has similar symptoms and didn't have the opportunity to have her diagnosed while I still had the legal authority to help her. Luckily we just had her diagnosed and she started Lamictal but it is difficult as a mom to monitor how things are going as it is for me to do so with my younger daughter. But fortunately her roommate has BP and is keeping an extra eye on her.
Anyway....I have learned to measure success by seeing how far they have come. Looks like Amanda has come pretty far....there's a way to go and you will have some bumps in the road along the way but eventually you will see that light at the end of the tunnel. I see it now and I am not going to fool myself or you by saying that things will always stay this way without there being some setbacks but the way I see it, having been through the abyss and come through the worst to seeing the daughter I thought I have lost I now know that there is always hope no matter what lies ahead of us of my daughter having a wonderful future.
I hope that you know that it isn't going to happen overnight but it will happen.
As far as driving....we are signed up for driver's ed which is scarey but she is doing well and I want her to realize that when stable she is capable of doing the same thingsas her peers but to have the insight that when she isn't stable that she shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car. We have already told her that we will not sign off on a license until we feel confident that she is able to handle that responsibility or even has the need to drive. Right now she has transportation to school and we can bring her to work during the summers but I want her to experience the things that other kids experience at her age and together us evaluate her emotional and mental stability to undertake that responsibility. IT still isn't easy even as well as she is doing now but we are taking one day at a time and seeing what each day brings.
I am slightly ahead of you on this road and some others are too but the important thing is that whether ahead or behind we are all in this together.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
I was standing right where you are thinking that my daughter will NEVER have a normal life and that is not so. True she will have more sensitivity to stress and events that are emotionally charged, but I am confident that she will be able to learn how to manage that.
I have another daughter who is at college who has similar symptoms and didn't have the opportunity to have her diagnosed while I still had the legal authority to help her. Luckily we just had her diagnosed and she started Lamictal but it is difficult as a mom to monitor how things are going as it is for me to do so with my younger daughter. But fortunately her roommate has BP and is keeping an extra eye on her.
Anyway....I have learned to measure success by seeing how far they have come. Looks like Amanda has come pretty far....there's a way to go and you will have some bumps in the road along the way but eventually you will see that light at the end of the tunnel. I see it now and I am not going to fool myself or you by saying that things will always stay this way without there being some setbacks but the way I see it, having been through the abyss and come through the worst to seeing the daughter I thought I have lost I now know that there is always hope no matter what lies ahead of us of my daughter having a wonderful future.
I hope that you know that it isn't going to happen overnight but it will happen.
As far as driving....we are signed up for driver's ed which is scarey but she is doing well and I want her to realize that when stable she is capable of doing the same thingsas her peers but to have the insight that when she isn't stable that she shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car. We have already told her that we will not sign off on a license until we feel confident that she is able to handle that responsibility or even has the need to drive. Right now she has transportation to school and we can bring her to work during the summers but I want her to experience the things that other kids experience at her age and together us evaluate her emotional and mental stability to undertake that responsibility. IT still isn't easy even as well as she is doing now but we are taking one day at a time and seeing what each day brings.
I am slightly ahead of you on this road and some others are too but the important thing is that whether ahead or behind we are all in this together.
((((HUGS)))) ~ Goody:angel: :wave:
bpmom07
09-19-2007, 09:28 PM
Again I am so thankful I have found this board. I want to thank you all again for being here and helping me through this. It's nice to have the calm and reason you all have while my world is spinning around me. I have come to think of this place as the calm in the storm (think Hurricane!). Again, thank you so much!
At least I didn't have to fight the school district on my son's IEP since he's in special ed preschool. I had thought he had Autism, but it turns out it's a speech and language disorder and sensory intergration disorder and the preschool has him classified as developmentally delayed. With all his therapy and Amanda it just feels like I'm being pulled in 2 directions and both kids are suffereing because of it. I need to clone myself! LOL
At least I didn't have to fight the school district on my son's IEP since he's in special ed preschool. I had thought he had Autism, but it turns out it's a speech and language disorder and sensory intergration disorder and the preschool has him classified as developmentally delayed. With all his therapy and Amanda it just feels like I'm being pulled in 2 directions and both kids are suffereing because of it. I need to clone myself! LOL
Paige1989
09-19-2007, 09:56 PM
Chellemom -
I lead a somewhat normal life as well...bumps in the road, yes, but I'm learning to handle things on my own...lately, I've been able to step down from my anxiety med during the day which was a huge step for me...as for a boyfriend, I don't have one nor have I had one, but it's not something I'm totally focused on. I have two really great guy friends and was disappointed when one of them started dating, but I haven't let that hurt our friendship. And driving...I've had my permit for over two years now, but for the first year and a half, I wasn't really interested in driving - the prospect scared me. But over the summer, I felt really rushed to get a liscense, which I don't have yet, because I'm so close to eighteen and most of my friends are driving. Anyway, when I was really close to getting my license, I started Seroquel and it made me dizzy for a while so I wouldn't let myself get behind the wheel of a car, but now that I have that under control, I want to get Behind-the-Wheel out of the way so I'll have my license...one of my courses involves me traveling to different schools, so it'd be helpful. :S Still, stability comes first...there's always time to get a license later, or be in a relationship. Just a teenager's take on it. ^^
~~Paige
I lead a somewhat normal life as well...bumps in the road, yes, but I'm learning to handle things on my own...lately, I've been able to step down from my anxiety med during the day which was a huge step for me...as for a boyfriend, I don't have one nor have I had one, but it's not something I'm totally focused on. I have two really great guy friends and was disappointed when one of them started dating, but I haven't let that hurt our friendship. And driving...I've had my permit for over two years now, but for the first year and a half, I wasn't really interested in driving - the prospect scared me. But over the summer, I felt really rushed to get a liscense, which I don't have yet, because I'm so close to eighteen and most of my friends are driving. Anyway, when I was really close to getting my license, I started Seroquel and it made me dizzy for a while so I wouldn't let myself get behind the wheel of a car, but now that I have that under control, I want to get Behind-the-Wheel out of the way so I'll have my license...one of my courses involves me traveling to different schools, so it'd be helpful. :S Still, stability comes first...there's always time to get a license later, or be in a relationship. Just a teenager's take on it. ^^
~~Paige