cantbebothered
09-25-2007, 04:06 PM
I've never really talked to anyone about my feelings or looked for medical help, probably because I'm worried about stigma. I'll list what I think are my problems.
1-I'm now in my 30's and I've never felt comfortable in social settings. I always feel like i'm surplus to requirements. I stay in the background, and feel uncomfortable when i'm the focus of attention. If there's a camera present, I hate having my picture taken as I have a poor self image of myself. If asked to go to a party, I always say yes, then try to come up with an excuse to get out of it. I'm no good with confrontations, so I just agree to go out.
2- I have a very low sense of self worth. I have a university degree, but the only 2 times when i've taken a job suitable for my qualifictions, I have left, as I feel incapable of coping with responsibility. I feel like a fake.
3- I have tried to harm myself, and continually think about doing this, not for the attention of others, but so I can shirk social responsibilities. I feel if i'm incapitated, people will not expect anything of me, and I will be left alone. I badly broke my ankle several months ago(accidently, not by intention), and had to have a plate put in, and for a time, I had an excuse to avoid people as I couldnt get about. lately, all I can think of is how to repeat the injury or create a worse one. When I try to rationalize this thought process, I feel even worse about myself. I have tried to injure my self in the past by crashing my car into a tree, but always veer away at the last minute. Then I pull my car into a layby and cry, both at waht I have just tried to do, and also because I couldnt carry it out. I must stress at this point, i'm not and have never been suicidal, I just want an excuse to be left alone.
4- I have never had a relationship. I feel unworthy and dont think anyone would want me, or deserve to be with a loser like me. I can strike up conversations with people and have a work relationship, but I can not do the normal things like chatting some one up or even asking them out for a date. I tell myself I'm better off alone, and for periods of time this works, at others it makes me feel bad that i'm such a loner.
5- I dont feel like I belong any where in the real world. I dont like working with other people, as I have to keep up the pretence that I'm like every one else, when deep down I feel like I dont fit. I have only held one job down for more than a year, but i eventually left. I told my boss I was to stressed, I was a shop manager at the time. This was really hard, as here I thought I was starting to be a part of something, but eventualy my low self esteem and confidence made me want to avoid my work place. I manufactured illness and injured myself so i could stay at home. This always made me feel worse in the long run, as a sense of self loathing always follows these occurrences. I'm scared at the moment as I have been trying to injusre myself again. Eventually I'll succeed, and I know I'll feel worse when I do.
I dont know if I want help, or i'm just here venting my feelings, but if you have felt the same, please tell me how you cope, cause lately coping is getting more difficult. I'm becoming more of a hermitt, and if i suceed in harming myself, i'll become even more isolated. My family and friends dont even know how i feel inside, as I'm to ashamed to admit my feelings to them. I take each day at a time, and so far have stopped myself doing anything stupid, but my reslove isnt great, and i'm worried and stressed. I could write a book on the gamut of emtions and problems I feel bother me, but this is a brief synopsis into my life.
I'm sorry to bother you guys, but if you know where i'm coming from, any advice would be nice. thank you in advance.
1-I'm now in my 30's and I've never felt comfortable in social settings. I always feel like i'm surplus to requirements. I stay in the background, and feel uncomfortable when i'm the focus of attention. If there's a camera present, I hate having my picture taken as I have a poor self image of myself. If asked to go to a party, I always say yes, then try to come up with an excuse to get out of it. I'm no good with confrontations, so I just agree to go out.
2- I have a very low sense of self worth. I have a university degree, but the only 2 times when i've taken a job suitable for my qualifictions, I have left, as I feel incapable of coping with responsibility. I feel like a fake.
3- I have tried to harm myself, and continually think about doing this, not for the attention of others, but so I can shirk social responsibilities. I feel if i'm incapitated, people will not expect anything of me, and I will be left alone. I badly broke my ankle several months ago(accidently, not by intention), and had to have a plate put in, and for a time, I had an excuse to avoid people as I couldnt get about. lately, all I can think of is how to repeat the injury or create a worse one. When I try to rationalize this thought process, I feel even worse about myself. I have tried to injure my self in the past by crashing my car into a tree, but always veer away at the last minute. Then I pull my car into a layby and cry, both at waht I have just tried to do, and also because I couldnt carry it out. I must stress at this point, i'm not and have never been suicidal, I just want an excuse to be left alone.
4- I have never had a relationship. I feel unworthy and dont think anyone would want me, or deserve to be with a loser like me. I can strike up conversations with people and have a work relationship, but I can not do the normal things like chatting some one up or even asking them out for a date. I tell myself I'm better off alone, and for periods of time this works, at others it makes me feel bad that i'm such a loner.
5- I dont feel like I belong any where in the real world. I dont like working with other people, as I have to keep up the pretence that I'm like every one else, when deep down I feel like I dont fit. I have only held one job down for more than a year, but i eventually left. I told my boss I was to stressed, I was a shop manager at the time. This was really hard, as here I thought I was starting to be a part of something, but eventualy my low self esteem and confidence made me want to avoid my work place. I manufactured illness and injured myself so i could stay at home. This always made me feel worse in the long run, as a sense of self loathing always follows these occurrences. I'm scared at the moment as I have been trying to injusre myself again. Eventually I'll succeed, and I know I'll feel worse when I do.
I dont know if I want help, or i'm just here venting my feelings, but if you have felt the same, please tell me how you cope, cause lately coping is getting more difficult. I'm becoming more of a hermitt, and if i suceed in harming myself, i'll become even more isolated. My family and friends dont even know how i feel inside, as I'm to ashamed to admit my feelings to them. I take each day at a time, and so far have stopped myself doing anything stupid, but my reslove isnt great, and i'm worried and stressed. I could write a book on the gamut of emtions and problems I feel bother me, but this is a brief synopsis into my life.
I'm sorry to bother you guys, but if you know where i'm coming from, any advice would be nice. thank you in advance.
Sponsor
shorebird
09-25-2007, 04:43 PM
I have experienced many of the things you mentioned and there is plenty of hope for you as all of your problems are related to the way you are processing your thoughts and that is easier to fix than you may imagine. Try and join a cbt group. If you can't find a group meeting, go to the library and read some books on cbt. The smaller and more concise the book the better imo for starters because you don't want to get overwhelmed. We started with the one by Sam Obitz in my group which was eye opening because he was a former panic, anxiety and depression sufferer himself. Do the tea form exercise everyday and I think you will start to feel better as soon as you get the hang of doing them. One of the great things about cbt is that you are responsible for the progress you make as if you don't do the exercises everyday you don't see results, which is very empowering and will in turn build your self-esteem. Hang in there and start working on yourself and you will change your life:)
cantbebothered
09-25-2007, 05:42 PM
(Try and join a cbt group. If you can't find a group meeting, go to the library and read some books on cbt. )
Thank you for taking time to hear me and reply. I don't understand however what cbt is?
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
Thank you for taking time to hear me and reply. I don't understand however what cbt is?
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
isitme
09-26-2007, 07:37 AM
Thank you for taking time to hear me and reply. I don't understand however what cbt is?
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
Oh dear, oh dear.........................you sound just like me. :) Mega, mega stigma problem, so much so I carried on and on for years and looking back I wish I hadn't fought so much with my feelings/emotions, because I've wasted so much of my life, pretending to be OK, when inside I was fit to burst. I got to the stage a few weeks ago where ' I knew' I wasn't normal and all I could do was cry at the realisation that I needed help and it up to me to go and find it, yet I couldn't. I was so ashamed of not being normal, (coming from a family backround where everyone was strong and to need meds for any kind of mental problem to them meant - 'they're not right in the head etc. :( I could not even phone the DRS receptionist!!! I'm in the UK too and I e-mailed the surgery, explaining my problem. I've now had my appointment, explaining, (or trying to explain) my problems and at long last, I have been referred to a specialist. Accepting you DO need help and dismissing others' judgements on you is your first hurdle. Good luck.
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
Oh dear, oh dear.........................you sound just like me. :) Mega, mega stigma problem, so much so I carried on and on for years and looking back I wish I hadn't fought so much with my feelings/emotions, because I've wasted so much of my life, pretending to be OK, when inside I was fit to burst. I got to the stage a few weeks ago where ' I knew' I wasn't normal and all I could do was cry at the realisation that I needed help and it up to me to go and find it, yet I couldn't. I was so ashamed of not being normal, (coming from a family backround where everyone was strong and to need meds for any kind of mental problem to them meant - 'they're not right in the head etc. :( I could not even phone the DRS receptionist!!! I'm in the UK too and I e-mailed the surgery, explaining my problem. I've now had my appointment, explaining, (or trying to explain) my problems and at long last, I have been referred to a specialist. Accepting you DO need help and dismissing others' judgements on you is your first hurdle. Good luck.
Sannah
09-26-2007, 09:43 AM
Hi CBB, IMO everything boils down to your low self worth. Where do you think that this came from? Going to your GP to get therapy would be a very good idea IMO! Yes, posting here and letting it out so that your thoughts and feelings can become clearer to you is very important! Keep posting.
shorebird
10-05-2007, 02:53 PM
Thank you for taking time to hear me and reply. I don't understand however what cbt is?
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
Cbt is cognitive behavioral therapy. It is a form of self-help where you learn through the exercises like the tea form to catch the errors you make in your thinking that cause distress and then teaches you how to build new pathways that are more objective and less upsetting ways of thinking. Over time if you work at the exercises you will become your own best friend and begin to feel more confident and happy.
I think it is great that you are coming here to post and hope you continue to do so. Any step you take is a good step and if you just keep taking them eventually you will find your way :)
I know I have a low self esteem, and probably am depressed, and I hope I can seek some kind of support and help, but time will tell. Here's hoping (thats something I dont do very well however, but I'll try). Just posting here and putting down some of what is bothering me helps a little. I have one friend who I can talk to and trust completely, but she's having enough problems of her own, and I dont want to burden her with my life. I'm thinking of speaking to my GP, however I fear talking to others face to face.
For now posting here at least helps to get my thoughts clear and somehow makes me feel i'm doing something (even if it is just typing to others I dont know and who dont me). Thank you for time.
Cbt is cognitive behavioral therapy. It is a form of self-help where you learn through the exercises like the tea form to catch the errors you make in your thinking that cause distress and then teaches you how to build new pathways that are more objective and less upsetting ways of thinking. Over time if you work at the exercises you will become your own best friend and begin to feel more confident and happy.
I think it is great that you are coming here to post and hope you continue to do so. Any step you take is a good step and if you just keep taking them eventually you will find your way :)
shorebird
10-23-2007, 04:45 PM
Come back Can'tbebothered.. I hope you are doing okay?
Nexis
10-25-2007, 11:18 AM
How was your childhood like?
What kind of a relationship do you have with your family and friends?
Do you feel you lack social skills or were taunted for not having them while growing up?
Have you seen a mental health professional before? If so what did they say? Did you ever get diagnosed with any conditions?
What kind of a relationship do you have with your family and friends?
Do you feel you lack social skills or were taunted for not having them while growing up?
Have you seen a mental health professional before? If so what did they say? Did you ever get diagnosed with any conditions?
mii
10-25-2007, 05:00 PM
My childhood was pretty crap. I suffered emotional abuse from my mother from the age of about four or five. As for now, I hardly ever get to interact with my family. I'm very antisocial as well. I've also got insomnia, anxiety and slight paranoia, as well as depression. I went to see my doctor and he put me on medication, as well as referring me to a therapist. I'm going back to see him in two weeks.
fisbie
10-30-2007, 02:08 AM
having mental heath problem is not normal or is it normal, you get to the point where you find it hard to remember what is normal in life as ur world from the abuse is where normal stops. I to was abused by my family mother step father and brothers and sister and kids at school, so for me abuse has been apart of my life and know at my age of 39yrs i am starting to see a counsellor, because there is know a number of mental health issues that have to delt with inorder to find some kind of normal or what people call normal. So i can well understand what you are going through with meds from Docs and all. Cos at my age i have to take meds to help get me through the day and event that effect my having some kind of a happy life. So please keep at it, they say it gets better :))
Pri Lily
10-30-2007, 01:32 PM
I don't know if cantbebothered, or any of you will care, but what we suffer from, does to a point have to do with how our families treat us.
Most of us are from British backgrounds...or in the UK....
My family are very sarcastic, "stiff upper lip", c'mon.. you can take it....type of people.
This "pounding" that we take, does nothing for the self confidence, or self esteem.
I've said on more than one thread.....poke back at them, or ask them to please stop, that it annoys you. (This will shock them into paying attention!)
Yes, you can do it.
Lil
Most of us are from British backgrounds...or in the UK....
My family are very sarcastic, "stiff upper lip", c'mon.. you can take it....type of people.
This "pounding" that we take, does nothing for the self confidence, or self esteem.
I've said on more than one thread.....poke back at them, or ask them to please stop, that it annoys you. (This will shock them into paying attention!)
Yes, you can do it.
Lil
shorebird
11-06-2007, 04:29 PM
My family are very sarcastic, "stiff upper lip", c'mon.. you can take it....type of people.
This "pounding" that we take, does nothing for the self confidence, or self esteem.
I've said on more than one thread.....poke back at them, or ask them to please stop, that it annoys you. (This will shock them into paying attention!)
Yes, you can do it.
Lil
One thing I learned through cbt was that no one can upset me but me. Only the way I process what someone says or does to me can make me miserable. If I can objectively see that what another person says to me or does to me is wrong and their problem it has no validity to me and therefore should not cause me any pain or suffering unless I let it.
This "pounding" that we take, does nothing for the self confidence, or self esteem.
I've said on more than one thread.....poke back at them, or ask them to please stop, that it annoys you. (This will shock them into paying attention!)
Yes, you can do it.
Lil
One thing I learned through cbt was that no one can upset me but me. Only the way I process what someone says or does to me can make me miserable. If I can objectively see that what another person says to me or does to me is wrong and their problem it has no validity to me and therefore should not cause me any pain or suffering unless I let it.
Aileen7
11-30-2007, 04:56 PM
Excellent point shorebird and one it took me forever to realize but once I did I took back my power and took it away from others. Now I can counter any upsetting thought I have in my TEA forms and if it is not valid why would it cause me any upset? People love to control you and it is up to us to take our power back.
shorebird
12-06-2007, 04:45 PM
Thanks Aileen. I especially like the way you pointed out how this takes our power back well said! I was getting worn out giving all my power over I how I was feeling to everyone but ME!
Pri Lily
12-06-2007, 07:31 PM
I have a question for you, Shorebird.
I am well versed in CBT, and can talk myself out of anything.
When the distortion has to do with my family (our closest relationships), I can use CBT, and keep from letting it affect my mood,( I don't get depressed, and go to bed, like I used to) but I may still stew about it for a day or two.
Can you just use CBT, and 100% of the time just let it go?
Just wondering
Lil
I am well versed in CBT, and can talk myself out of anything.
When the distortion has to do with my family (our closest relationships), I can use CBT, and keep from letting it affect my mood,( I don't get depressed, and go to bed, like I used to) but I may still stew about it for a day or two.
Can you just use CBT, and 100% of the time just let it go?
Just wondering
Lil
Nexis
12-07-2007, 05:48 AM
Besides The "feeling good" book on CBT, what other books/authors are well versed on CBT methods for the public?
Pri Lily
12-07-2007, 02:15 PM
Hi...
Another good CBT book is "Mind over Mood"....both books are similar, but the methods are a little different.
Shorebird uses a different book....I can't think of the name of it.
Lil
Another good CBT book is "Mind over Mood"....both books are similar, but the methods are a little different.
Shorebird uses a different book....I can't think of the name of it.
Lil
shorebird
01-11-2008, 05:41 PM
I have a question for you, Shorebird.
I am well versed in CBT, and can talk myself out of anything.
When the distortion has to do with my family (our closest relationships), I can use CBT, and keep from letting it affect my mood,( I don't get depressed, and go to bed, like I used to) but I may still stew about it for a day or two.
Can you just use CBT, and 100% of the time just let it go?
Just wondering
Lil
Pri-
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Not to make excuses but the holidays are always so busy I just never checked back. Anyway, like you I am human and some situations are harder to let go of than others for me. When they stick with me I keep countering the thoughts and remind myself that I can't control other peoples actions. Some people try to hurt or control us and we have to find a way to let it go. For me I keep countering the thoughts and it goes away, sometimes fast, other times it takes several days.
Just the other day a friend told me that someone I hardly know at all was bad mouthing me and at first it stung pretty bad, but then I realized it was her problem. She doesn't know me beyond passing hello's and feels the need to bad mouth me? She must feel pretty awful about herself and her life and rather than let it affect me I feel sorry for her now. I guess there's always gonna be drama so we better be able to protect ourselves as best we can.
I am well versed in CBT, and can talk myself out of anything.
When the distortion has to do with my family (our closest relationships), I can use CBT, and keep from letting it affect my mood,( I don't get depressed, and go to bed, like I used to) but I may still stew about it for a day or two.
Can you just use CBT, and 100% of the time just let it go?
Just wondering
Lil
Pri-
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Not to make excuses but the holidays are always so busy I just never checked back. Anyway, like you I am human and some situations are harder to let go of than others for me. When they stick with me I keep countering the thoughts and remind myself that I can't control other peoples actions. Some people try to hurt or control us and we have to find a way to let it go. For me I keep countering the thoughts and it goes away, sometimes fast, other times it takes several days.
Just the other day a friend told me that someone I hardly know at all was bad mouthing me and at first it stung pretty bad, but then I realized it was her problem. She doesn't know me beyond passing hello's and feels the need to bad mouth me? She must feel pretty awful about herself and her life and rather than let it affect me I feel sorry for her now. I guess there's always gonna be drama so we better be able to protect ourselves as best we can.
shorebird
01-11-2008, 05:43 PM
Besides The "feeling good" book on CBT, what other books/authors are well versed on CBT methods for the public?
I like the book by Sam Obitz best because it is like a cliffnotes version of Burns. Kind of a CBT for dummies simplified version of Burns.
I like the book by Sam Obitz best because it is like a cliffnotes version of Burns. Kind of a CBT for dummies simplified version of Burns.
MissKris75
01-24-2008, 01:54 AM
cantbebothered, I have experienced a lot of the same feelings you have. I'm in my 30s as well and suffer from low self-esteem and some social anxiety. Like you, I've never been in a relationship. Some of my social anxiety, especially in workplace situations, stems from the fact that I tend to cry easily, like when I'm reprimanded or make a mistake or if I just get really stressed out. This has caused problems in pretty much every job I've had and has made me feel very badly about myself. When I was growing up, this crying problem caused me trouble at school as well.
I've been to several therapists and psychiatrists and I'm currently on a high dose of Effexor, but I still haven't found many solutions to my problems. Perhaps I should try another medication, but financial factors (I'm not working right now) and the fact that I haven't been able to find a psychiatrist I feel comfortable with are keeping me from doing this. I've been having quite a few health problems over the past few years and the thought of going to yet another doctor is not sitting well with me right now. I know I need to make some changes if I'm going to move on with my life, but I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed.
Sorry I haven't been able to give much in the way of advice. Just thought I'd post to let you know you're not alone. One of the worst feelings is feeling like you're all alone and nobody can understand how you feel. And I could write a whole book too!
I've been to several therapists and psychiatrists and I'm currently on a high dose of Effexor, but I still haven't found many solutions to my problems. Perhaps I should try another medication, but financial factors (I'm not working right now) and the fact that I haven't been able to find a psychiatrist I feel comfortable with are keeping me from doing this. I've been having quite a few health problems over the past few years and the thought of going to yet another doctor is not sitting well with me right now. I know I need to make some changes if I'm going to move on with my life, but I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed.
Sorry I haven't been able to give much in the way of advice. Just thought I'd post to let you know you're not alone. One of the worst feelings is feeling like you're all alone and nobody can understand how you feel. And I could write a whole book too!
Pri Lily
01-24-2008, 02:20 PM
Miss Kris...
Has anyone ever contemplated that you may have an overabundance of "lactic acid" in your system?
Women have 6 times more than men....for breastfeeding. It's also part of the explanation as to why we cry more often than men.
If you've had it pretty much all your life, it might be physical, not mental.
Just a suggestion....
Lil
Has anyone ever contemplated that you may have an overabundance of "lactic acid" in your system?
Women have 6 times more than men....for breastfeeding. It's also part of the explanation as to why we cry more often than men.
If you've had it pretty much all your life, it might be physical, not mental.
Just a suggestion....
Lil
MissKris75
01-24-2008, 02:38 PM
Lil, you bring up an interesting point about Lactic Acid. I had never heard of that as a cause of crying. I'll have to look into that. Thanks for your insight.
Pri Lily
01-24-2008, 02:49 PM
You're welcome Kris.
I hope my guess helps you out.
Please let us know what happens.
Lil
I hope my guess helps you out.
Please let us know what happens.
Lil
MissKris75
01-24-2008, 03:00 PM
I looked up lactic acidosis (the medical term for too much lactic acid) and crying was not mentioned as one of the symptoms. I don't have any of the listed symptoms like abdominal pain and lethargy. It seems like a rather serious condition that would make me feel rather sick and I feel fine physically. Maybe I was looking up the wrong thing.
Aileen7
01-28-2008, 04:54 PM
I like the book by Sam Obitz best because it is like a cliffnotes version of Burns. Kind of a CBT for dummies simplified version of Burns.
Great book and description but I don't consider myself a "dummy." ;) I do like the relateable aspect of the author having gone through anxiety and panic that Burns didn't have also.
Great book and description but I don't consider myself a "dummy." ;) I do like the relateable aspect of the author having gone through anxiety and panic that Burns didn't have also.
Pri Lily
01-29-2008, 03:45 AM
Hi Kris....
I read it somewhere, and I can't find it now either.....I'm still looking.:mad:
I'll let you know if I find it.
Lil
I read it somewhere, and I can't find it now either.....I'm still looking.:mad:
I'll let you know if I find it.
Lil
shorebird
03-06-2008, 12:40 PM
Great book and description but I don't consider myself a "dummy." ;) I do like the relateable aspect of the author having gone through anxiety and panic that Burns didn't have also.
Hi everyone never heard of the lactic acid thing, very interesting. LOL on the dummy comment Aileen:jester:
Hi everyone never heard of the lactic acid thing, very interesting. LOL on the dummy comment Aileen:jester: