Dingoes
11-06-2007, 12:36 AM
My grandmother (stage 5/6), 92, has recently started saying she no longer wants to live, which is really distressing for me to hear because my mother (her daughter) committed suicide in her 30s and it's just opening some cans of worms for me I'd rather stay dormant.
She doesn't say it all the time and doesn't turn down food or water. But a part of me takes what she says seriously and it worries me about the future, when she's released from NH rehab (which she hates) back to my home.
Is it common for AD patients to be suicidal? She's not all that mobile so I think it would be difficult for her to actually act on any impulses, but what if I'm wrong about that? Has anyone else gone through anything like this?
She doesn't say it all the time and doesn't turn down food or water. But a part of me takes what she says seriously and it worries me about the future, when she's released from NH rehab (which she hates) back to my home.
Is it common for AD patients to be suicidal? She's not all that mobile so I think it would be difficult for her to actually act on any impulses, but what if I'm wrong about that? Has anyone else gone through anything like this?
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DGabriel10
11-06-2007, 03:02 AM
I went through this with my Mom. Hers were more manic episodes in which she cried, refused to eat, and even became hysterica. Her doctor changed her depression medication twice and she has since moved to assisted living which she is enjoying. She has no memories of the threats she made that are still burned into my memory.
Depression is not directly caused by ALZ though ALZ patients can suffer from depression. The diagnosis and difficulties inherent in ALZ can cause some to want to give up. My grandmother nor my dad had any signs of depression. My Mom, on the other hand has had bouts of depression since she realized she had cognitive impairment. She hid her inabilities for years and the doctor misdiagnosed her with depression. ALZ was her worst fear and it terrifies her to lose her independence. Her last bout with depression was over losing her driving priviledges. I am not sure if it was her last medication change or her move to Assisted Living (she feels she got her independence back) or maybe both but Mom is much better today. Your grandmother may be verbalizing her dislike for the rehab the best way she knows how. You need to contact your grandmother's doctor and make sure he is aware of her thoughts and see how he advises you.
I am truly sorry about your Mom and that your grandmother is going through this difficult time. Know you are not alone and my thoughts and prayers go with you.
Love, Deb
Depression is not directly caused by ALZ though ALZ patients can suffer from depression. The diagnosis and difficulties inherent in ALZ can cause some to want to give up. My grandmother nor my dad had any signs of depression. My Mom, on the other hand has had bouts of depression since she realized she had cognitive impairment. She hid her inabilities for years and the doctor misdiagnosed her with depression. ALZ was her worst fear and it terrifies her to lose her independence. Her last bout with depression was over losing her driving priviledges. I am not sure if it was her last medication change or her move to Assisted Living (she feels she got her independence back) or maybe both but Mom is much better today. Your grandmother may be verbalizing her dislike for the rehab the best way she knows how. You need to contact your grandmother's doctor and make sure he is aware of her thoughts and see how he advises you.
I am truly sorry about your Mom and that your grandmother is going through this difficult time. Know you are not alone and my thoughts and prayers go with you.
Love, Deb
angel_bear
11-06-2007, 05:18 AM
There are some really good antidepressants out there specifically for AD/Dementia patients ... I have seen people laying on their bed totally miserable wishing life would end soon, yet 2 weeks later bouncing around happy.
Does she have a pet? One lady I know discovered a cat and that pulled her out of her funk along with antidepressants.
Nothing wrong with taking stuff to make 'em feel happier. They really don't have much left eh?
Cheers
Does she have a pet? One lady I know discovered a cat and that pulled her out of her funk along with antidepressants.
Nothing wrong with taking stuff to make 'em feel happier. They really don't have much left eh?
Cheers
Dingoes
11-06-2007, 10:44 AM
She now takes anti-depression meds (which I think should be in the water supply <g>, I'm on them myself and they help a lot) along with her AD meds, so maybe those will start working in the next week or two -- she's been on them for only a week now and I know it takes time for them to build up in a person's system.
I do think her expressing suicidal thoughts is directly related to the disease, since she never said anything like this before, even when my mother (her daughter) killed herself and my uncle (her son) died a long, slow, miserable death from brain cancer. (Now you can see why I'm trying to do everything I can to make her as happy as possible for the remainder of her life...) But I'm wondering if it's dementia (which is possible) or if it's the reaction TO the dementia (which is understandable).
Gads. Either way, this STINKS!!!
And yes, angel bear, she has a pet -- I got a kitten when she moved here specifically for her, and since then we also took in a stray pregnant cat who had five kittens who are now four weeks old, so they'll also be around till they're weaned. That does seem to be the light of her life, watching and playing with the animals.
I do think her expressing suicidal thoughts is directly related to the disease, since she never said anything like this before, even when my mother (her daughter) killed herself and my uncle (her son) died a long, slow, miserable death from brain cancer. (Now you can see why I'm trying to do everything I can to make her as happy as possible for the remainder of her life...) But I'm wondering if it's dementia (which is possible) or if it's the reaction TO the dementia (which is understandable).
Gads. Either way, this STINKS!!!
And yes, angel bear, she has a pet -- I got a kitten when she moved here specifically for her, and since then we also took in a stray pregnant cat who had five kittens who are now four weeks old, so they'll also be around till they're weaned. That does seem to be the light of her life, watching and playing with the animals.
DGabriel10
11-06-2007, 12:27 PM
I think I understand your question better now. Yes, the symptoms of dementia and depression are very similar and persons are misdiagnosed because of that. Dementia patients can be depressed and depressed people can have dementia as well. As the doctor told us, the difference is that depression is treatable. We did see an improvement in Mom's disposition within a few weeks but she still has her cognitive impairments. She has been on ALZ medications for about a year and it is unclear if they are helping but she tolerates them well.
Did your grandmother just receive a diagnosis of dementia? Why is she in a NH rehab and how long has she been there? You stated that she hates being in the NH rehab. The answer may be in these questions. ALZ diagnosis can carry with it a tremendous loss of control, independence, personhood, and self esteem. In moments of awareness it is very difficult to accept what is happeneing in the ALZ brain. My mom has an understanding of what is happening to her that comes and goes. Those moments of awareness triggered very negative emotions and she reacted to those emotions in the best way she can. She truly would rather be dead than live with a disease that took her Mom, sister, and husband away from her. She is now living in her worst nightmare. We could not fix the nightmare she is living in but medication has helped her manage her negative emotions.
What has also helped my Mom is giving her back her sense of independence and personal worthyness by moving into assisted living. She never wanted to be a burden on others like others were on her. She also needed the socialization that she was not getting because she was trying to keep Dad at home. She had become very isolated. She has also lost the burden of having to do many daily activies such as cooking which had become difficult for her. Lastly it gave her back her sense of pride. She hated having a sitter and somebody drive her around where all her friends could see. She saw her self as dysfunctional in a functional world. Now she sees herself as functional in a disfunctional world. You have to find what works for you and your love one.
Hope this helps and again you are not alone.
Love, Deb
Did your grandmother just receive a diagnosis of dementia? Why is she in a NH rehab and how long has she been there? You stated that she hates being in the NH rehab. The answer may be in these questions. ALZ diagnosis can carry with it a tremendous loss of control, independence, personhood, and self esteem. In moments of awareness it is very difficult to accept what is happeneing in the ALZ brain. My mom has an understanding of what is happening to her that comes and goes. Those moments of awareness triggered very negative emotions and she reacted to those emotions in the best way she can. She truly would rather be dead than live with a disease that took her Mom, sister, and husband away from her. She is now living in her worst nightmare. We could not fix the nightmare she is living in but medication has helped her manage her negative emotions.
What has also helped my Mom is giving her back her sense of independence and personal worthyness by moving into assisted living. She never wanted to be a burden on others like others were on her. She also needed the socialization that she was not getting because she was trying to keep Dad at home. She had become very isolated. She has also lost the burden of having to do many daily activies such as cooking which had become difficult for her. Lastly it gave her back her sense of pride. She hated having a sitter and somebody drive her around where all her friends could see. She saw her self as dysfunctional in a functional world. Now she sees herself as functional in a disfunctional world. You have to find what works for you and your love one.
Hope this helps and again you are not alone.
Love, Deb
Dingoes
11-06-2007, 07:59 PM
Did your grandmother just receive a diagnosis of dementia? Why is she in a NH rehab and how long has she been there? You stated that she hates being in the NH rehab. The answer may be in these questions. ALZ diagnosis can carry with it a tremendous loss of control, independence, personhood, and self esteem. In moments of awareness it is very difficult to accept what is happeneing in the ALZ brain. My mom has an understanding of what is happening to her that comes and goes. Those moments of awareness triggered very negative emotions and she reacted to those emotions in the best way she can. She truly would rather be dead than live with a disease that took her Mom, sister, and husband away from her. She is now living in her worst nightmare. We could not fix the nightmare she is living in but medication has helped her manage her negative emotions.
Deb, yes, this diagnosis is new to all of us, though I have suspected as much for the last few months. Let me explain a bit more about Nana's condition.
Like your mom, she took care of her father (who died of cancer) and her mother (who according to family lore went senile and then recovered and was able to live with her own three children for years afterward; I remember Granny well and she didn't have AD). She also took care of her second husband, who died after a wasting illness, and not long after that her son (my uncle) fell ill with brain cancer and my Nana spent her late 80s nursing him until he died.
After her second husband died, Nana lived alone till her 91st birthday, paying her bills, ordering food from local places that delivered and relying on her building's network of doormen and handymen for heavy lifting. She knew she was "starting to lose it" and we made plans to move her into an assisted living facility near my home in N.J.
About a week before she was scheduled to move, she didn't answer her phone for two days straight, and my sister (calling worried from Florida) and I called 911. They broke the door down and found her, severely dehydrated but alive, and that's how she ended up moving out of her apartment.
We moved her from the hospital in NY to a local rehab center here in NJ, but as it turned out although it was the one recommended by the assisted living admissions counselor, it was one of those places you wouldn't put a dog in, and my husband, sister and I (joint POAs) agreed that she really needed to be somewhere better or she'd never recover.
So, we moved her into a different assisted living place than the one we had initially selected (fearing that she'd end up back in the hellhole rehab place if she worsened), hired a private nurse for her till she was physically back on her feet and got her settled in there.
She HATED it.
Every day we'd get calls about how they were "just throwing me in my room" and "not bothering to serve me hot food." The administrator would also call to say she wasn't participating in activities (Bingo, etc.) and wouldn't even get out of her bed for meals.
Now, realize, that no one mentioned AD, even at this point.
So, bottom line is, my husband (who is a saint) and I decided to build a room onto the back of our house for Nana. It's not huge, but it has the best views in the house (two exposures), a handicap-accessible sit-down shower and a toilet where we attached her booster seat thingie permanently. We moved her in here in June.
I immediately noticed she was having trouble orienting herself in time and place, which she used to complain about when she lived in NY but which she chalked up at the time to having no one to talk to and no regular routine. However, my husband and I made sure to keep our routines very straightforward and I noticed that even when we bought her a special digital clock that displays the time, AM or PM, day and date, she still said she didn't know if it was morning or night and seemed not to know if I was going to serve her breakfast, lunch or dinner (especially after a nap).
So now I did a bit of research and found a list of AD symptoms and -- bingo! She had almost all of the early stage symptoms and a couple of the moderate stage ones as well. So, that's when I figured out she had AD.
I was still wrapping my mind around it -- I admit it, I went into some denial -- when she had a paranoid episode on a Saturday where she refused her heart meds because the doctor hadn't put a checkmark in the DAW box and I had mistakenly gotten her generics. This amounted to trying to poison her, in her mind, and by the time Monday came (and I was about to call the doctor's office to request a DAW prescription) she had worked up her blood pressure and her state of mind into complete irrationality. Temper tantrums, screaming, things way beyond what's considered normal, even in my tempestuous family.
Bottom line, my husband took her to the hospital because she was screaming she had to prove she wasn't crazy (good going, Nana...). By the time he got her there she was screaming bloody murder that we had beaten her up (untrue, though she had hit me) and stolen all her money and her jewelry (again, untrue) and she was going to stay in the hospital for three months since they were being so nice to her.
That night she called at 2 AM demanding I come take her home. "They're crazy here, you have no idea," she said ominously. I refused to come get her at that moment and then she demanded I wake my husband and he'd get her and I said no, and she demanded a taxi, which I also declined.
Ten minutes later the nurse called to tell me they had had to put Nana in restaints.
Diagnosis: Severe UTI and dementia.
So, she was in the hospital for about a week and was refusing her meds unless they were forced on her via IV.
We transferred her into the rehab facility six days ago, and I am very impressed with the caring staff, cleanliness and overall good feeling there. The first day she refused all meds. The second day I visited her and told her there was no way she'd ever get out of there if she didn't start taking all four meds (and I explained what they were, and what they were for: blood pressure, thyroid, AD and mood). Since then she's taken all her pills and the nurse tells me she's lovely and cooperative, but Nana's current story is that at night they rent all the rooms out to gamblers and she was raped by two of them. She's in denial about AD -- it doesn't run in our (long-lived) family and I believe she'd rather I think she's a manipulative and rotten old thing than that I think she's got an illness I'm trying to help her learn to live with.
So that's where things stand.
I'm figuring we'll try to take her home one last time (still hoping the antidepressants at least kick in, I can stand her dotty but can't stand her suicidal) and in the meanwhile I have my sister looking into private NH facilities in Florida, where she lives, since the cost around here is beyond Nana's means and she won't qualify for Medicaid.
Sorry for rambling on so, but now you see what brought a newbie like me to this board.
And thanks for the support, it really does help to know one isn't alone with this.
Deb, yes, this diagnosis is new to all of us, though I have suspected as much for the last few months. Let me explain a bit more about Nana's condition.
Like your mom, she took care of her father (who died of cancer) and her mother (who according to family lore went senile and then recovered and was able to live with her own three children for years afterward; I remember Granny well and she didn't have AD). She also took care of her second husband, who died after a wasting illness, and not long after that her son (my uncle) fell ill with brain cancer and my Nana spent her late 80s nursing him until he died.
After her second husband died, Nana lived alone till her 91st birthday, paying her bills, ordering food from local places that delivered and relying on her building's network of doormen and handymen for heavy lifting. She knew she was "starting to lose it" and we made plans to move her into an assisted living facility near my home in N.J.
About a week before she was scheduled to move, she didn't answer her phone for two days straight, and my sister (calling worried from Florida) and I called 911. They broke the door down and found her, severely dehydrated but alive, and that's how she ended up moving out of her apartment.
We moved her from the hospital in NY to a local rehab center here in NJ, but as it turned out although it was the one recommended by the assisted living admissions counselor, it was one of those places you wouldn't put a dog in, and my husband, sister and I (joint POAs) agreed that she really needed to be somewhere better or she'd never recover.
So, we moved her into a different assisted living place than the one we had initially selected (fearing that she'd end up back in the hellhole rehab place if she worsened), hired a private nurse for her till she was physically back on her feet and got her settled in there.
She HATED it.
Every day we'd get calls about how they were "just throwing me in my room" and "not bothering to serve me hot food." The administrator would also call to say she wasn't participating in activities (Bingo, etc.) and wouldn't even get out of her bed for meals.
Now, realize, that no one mentioned AD, even at this point.
So, bottom line is, my husband (who is a saint) and I decided to build a room onto the back of our house for Nana. It's not huge, but it has the best views in the house (two exposures), a handicap-accessible sit-down shower and a toilet where we attached her booster seat thingie permanently. We moved her in here in June.
I immediately noticed she was having trouble orienting herself in time and place, which she used to complain about when she lived in NY but which she chalked up at the time to having no one to talk to and no regular routine. However, my husband and I made sure to keep our routines very straightforward and I noticed that even when we bought her a special digital clock that displays the time, AM or PM, day and date, she still said she didn't know if it was morning or night and seemed not to know if I was going to serve her breakfast, lunch or dinner (especially after a nap).
So now I did a bit of research and found a list of AD symptoms and -- bingo! She had almost all of the early stage symptoms and a couple of the moderate stage ones as well. So, that's when I figured out she had AD.
I was still wrapping my mind around it -- I admit it, I went into some denial -- when she had a paranoid episode on a Saturday where she refused her heart meds because the doctor hadn't put a checkmark in the DAW box and I had mistakenly gotten her generics. This amounted to trying to poison her, in her mind, and by the time Monday came (and I was about to call the doctor's office to request a DAW prescription) she had worked up her blood pressure and her state of mind into complete irrationality. Temper tantrums, screaming, things way beyond what's considered normal, even in my tempestuous family.
Bottom line, my husband took her to the hospital because she was screaming she had to prove she wasn't crazy (good going, Nana...). By the time he got her there she was screaming bloody murder that we had beaten her up (untrue, though she had hit me) and stolen all her money and her jewelry (again, untrue) and she was going to stay in the hospital for three months since they were being so nice to her.
That night she called at 2 AM demanding I come take her home. "They're crazy here, you have no idea," she said ominously. I refused to come get her at that moment and then she demanded I wake my husband and he'd get her and I said no, and she demanded a taxi, which I also declined.
Ten minutes later the nurse called to tell me they had had to put Nana in restaints.
Diagnosis: Severe UTI and dementia.
So, she was in the hospital for about a week and was refusing her meds unless they were forced on her via IV.
We transferred her into the rehab facility six days ago, and I am very impressed with the caring staff, cleanliness and overall good feeling there. The first day she refused all meds. The second day I visited her and told her there was no way she'd ever get out of there if she didn't start taking all four meds (and I explained what they were, and what they were for: blood pressure, thyroid, AD and mood). Since then she's taken all her pills and the nurse tells me she's lovely and cooperative, but Nana's current story is that at night they rent all the rooms out to gamblers and she was raped by two of them. She's in denial about AD -- it doesn't run in our (long-lived) family and I believe she'd rather I think she's a manipulative and rotten old thing than that I think she's got an illness I'm trying to help her learn to live with.
So that's where things stand.
I'm figuring we'll try to take her home one last time (still hoping the antidepressants at least kick in, I can stand her dotty but can't stand her suicidal) and in the meanwhile I have my sister looking into private NH facilities in Florida, where she lives, since the cost around here is beyond Nana's means and she won't qualify for Medicaid.
Sorry for rambling on so, but now you see what brought a newbie like me to this board.
And thanks for the support, it really does help to know one isn't alone with this.
DGabriel10
11-06-2007, 09:28 PM
Your grandmother seems to be a very strong independent lady that has survived a lot of hardship in her life. This diagnosis must be a heavy blow to her.... when she can grasp the concept.
Some of her confusion the night of the paranoid episode was likely caused by the UTI. It is not uncommon for UTI's to cause increased confusion. But you still have the underlying dementia to deal with. The night time episodes could be sundowning. That is paranoia and aggitation that occurs mainly in the evening hours... sundown. There is no explination as to why this happens but it is a reality. Medication can control the paranoia and aggitation. My Dad is the Sundown King!! He takes two different medications in the late afternoon and evening to control his evening aggitation and parnoia. Though he sleeps a little more it has helped his disposition when he is awake. There is such a wide range of medications that can be used to control depression, aggetation, paranoia, or other symptoms. You just have to find the right combination of medications that work for your grandmother.
So it is important to keep a record of the episodes so you will know if there is a pattern (I did this on a pocket calendar) and to have open discussions with her doctor about what is happening with your grandmother. Hopefully you will find a combination that will be helpful to her.
No you are not alone. There is always a helping hand, good advice, and great ears here. We are glad you found the forum and hope you stay. It brings out the best in all of us and can be the glue that keeps our sanity intact on the bad days. Keep writing......
Love, Deb
Some of her confusion the night of the paranoid episode was likely caused by the UTI. It is not uncommon for UTI's to cause increased confusion. But you still have the underlying dementia to deal with. The night time episodes could be sundowning. That is paranoia and aggitation that occurs mainly in the evening hours... sundown. There is no explination as to why this happens but it is a reality. Medication can control the paranoia and aggitation. My Dad is the Sundown King!! He takes two different medications in the late afternoon and evening to control his evening aggitation and parnoia. Though he sleeps a little more it has helped his disposition when he is awake. There is such a wide range of medications that can be used to control depression, aggetation, paranoia, or other symptoms. You just have to find the right combination of medications that work for your grandmother.
So it is important to keep a record of the episodes so you will know if there is a pattern (I did this on a pocket calendar) and to have open discussions with her doctor about what is happening with your grandmother. Hopefully you will find a combination that will be helpful to her.
No you are not alone. There is always a helping hand, good advice, and great ears here. We are glad you found the forum and hope you stay. It brings out the best in all of us and can be the glue that keeps our sanity intact on the bad days. Keep writing......
Love, Deb
UJG
11-06-2007, 11:28 PM
My dad who is now somewhere in stage 5/6 would, in his earlier stages, bluntly say that he would kill himself when after the disease progressed. We took his gun away. I think he's always been depressed and the disease has made it worse. I got a puppy golden retriever who makes him (and myself) happy whenever she walks into the room. He was started on Risperdal for depression and paranoia but taken off 2 weeks ago because of an adverse reaction to the med. He's now on Celexa and still fairly paranoid and depressed. Molly, my golden pup, seems to be the most effective as a short term mood lifter, and the Risperdal and Celexa seem to be more effective at taking his edge off in general.
Hope this helps,
Jay
Hope this helps,
Jay
Martha H
11-07-2007, 08:01 AM
I felt such a sense of relief when I first posted on this Board 3 years ago.
I was ignorant of the progress of this disease, feeling guilty, believing that moving Mom to my brother's house or to a nursing home would prove me to be a mean, selfish uncaring daughter, trying daily to reason with Mom and help her to see the world correctly (as if you could reason a delusion out of anyone!) .. and then I got help, here.
People had said 'go to a self help group" but working full time and caring for Mom around the clock, I didn't even have time to go to a dentist (the results are still plagueing me) ..never mind an Alzheimer Group. This group took its place, and saved my life LITERALLY. Shortly before finding it, I had suicidal thoughts, feeling I was a miserable failure as a caregiver and everyone would be better off without me.
This Board changed my false way of thinking, I made that 180 degree turn and am now healthy mentally and physically.
You are so very welcomd here!
Love,
Martha
I was ignorant of the progress of this disease, feeling guilty, believing that moving Mom to my brother's house or to a nursing home would prove me to be a mean, selfish uncaring daughter, trying daily to reason with Mom and help her to see the world correctly (as if you could reason a delusion out of anyone!) .. and then I got help, here.
People had said 'go to a self help group" but working full time and caring for Mom around the clock, I didn't even have time to go to a dentist (the results are still plagueing me) ..never mind an Alzheimer Group. This group took its place, and saved my life LITERALLY. Shortly before finding it, I had suicidal thoughts, feeling I was a miserable failure as a caregiver and everyone would be better off without me.
This Board changed my false way of thinking, I made that 180 degree turn and am now healthy mentally and physically.
You are so very welcomd here!
Love,
Martha
Dingoes
11-07-2007, 12:24 PM
Martha, I know what you mean, the guilt has been unbelievable. It still is, frankly, but I feel I owe it to Nana for everything she did for me all my life. While she wasn't my mother, she might as well have been, since my mother died when I was 16 and Nana put me through college, paid for my wedding, babysat my children and did anything a caring mother would do for her daughter. I haven't felt suicidal, but chalk that up to the Prozac, which I've been on for depression for the last 10 years -- just unbelievably stressed with this whole thing and trying to figure out how to keep her as happy as possible while keeping myself sane and employed while I do it. Fortunately for me, I am a selfish person by nature so I do take time (usually at night) that's just for me and my husband, and it has helped quite a bit when the stress has been bad.
And UJH, I did get Nana a kitten after noticing how she loved watching the rabbits outside the kitchen window (and she got along well with my two adult cats). She's more a dog person, but I work at home and just can't handle one more dependent (a dog who needs more attention than a cat) on my plate. The kitten was definitely a mood-helper, as was the stray pregnant cat we found shortly afterward, so now I'm actually feeling like a crazy cat lady till the new kittens all go to their adoptive homes when they're weaned. Animals definitely do help, though even the kittens didn't keep Nana from really going off the rails two weeks ago.
And Deb, interestingly enough she never "sundowned" till she was in the hospital, never at my house, since she'd generally eat dinner and then go in to bed right around then. Since she's been hospitalized and then now is in the rehab, they tell me she sundowns every day. I've asked them to double-check that her UTI is indeed completely gone, since they said she still seems confused (but which she told me in all seriousness yesterday when I visited that she's "putting on an old lady act" so they leave her alone). AD or not, Nana's still got enough of her wits about her to be keeping me guessing, even at 92. What I did notice while she was here was she seems to have a mini-meltdown about once a month, almost as if she's PMSing. It's just, up till last time, she was always able to calm down after a good night's sleep and a cuddle session with a kitten. But she wasn't on antidepressants or AD meds then, just blood pressure and thyroid pills.
Thanks so much, all of you. It really helps being here to talk about this.
And UJH, I did get Nana a kitten after noticing how she loved watching the rabbits outside the kitchen window (and she got along well with my two adult cats). She's more a dog person, but I work at home and just can't handle one more dependent (a dog who needs more attention than a cat) on my plate. The kitten was definitely a mood-helper, as was the stray pregnant cat we found shortly afterward, so now I'm actually feeling like a crazy cat lady till the new kittens all go to their adoptive homes when they're weaned. Animals definitely do help, though even the kittens didn't keep Nana from really going off the rails two weeks ago.
And Deb, interestingly enough she never "sundowned" till she was in the hospital, never at my house, since she'd generally eat dinner and then go in to bed right around then. Since she's been hospitalized and then now is in the rehab, they tell me she sundowns every day. I've asked them to double-check that her UTI is indeed completely gone, since they said she still seems confused (but which she told me in all seriousness yesterday when I visited that she's "putting on an old lady act" so they leave her alone). AD or not, Nana's still got enough of her wits about her to be keeping me guessing, even at 92. What I did notice while she was here was she seems to have a mini-meltdown about once a month, almost as if she's PMSing. It's just, up till last time, she was always able to calm down after a good night's sleep and a cuddle session with a kitten. But she wasn't on antidepressants or AD meds then, just blood pressure and thyroid pills.
Thanks so much, all of you. It really helps being here to talk about this.
DGabriel10
11-07-2007, 01:42 PM
Interesting comment you made Dingo about your Nana not sundowning when she was comfortable at your house, just going to bed after supper. My dad never had a chronic episode of sundowning when I was at home with him. Yes, he did ask the same questions over and over about his parents, brothers, and sisters. He didn't know where he was or who's house he was in. He occassionally also didn't know Mom unless she looked at him and spoke. He always locked the doors repeatedly and made sure the blinds were down. He did get annoyed but not to the point that I could not calm him down. A few times I would stand by my parents bedroom door listening as if they were children, speaking out of the dark when they would start their arguments again, until they were asleep. Yet when he and Mom were alone and a few times when another sister would be there it was really bad. When something broke the routine he had episodes as well. There is a lot to be said for routines and appropriate responses to his actions and questions.
My major guilt came in because I knew I could handle my dad if I could keep him in his home. Mom was another story!! Without giving up my family and moving in with them I could not do it from 4 hours away. Moving them here would be worse than moving them into Assisted Living. So I was literally caught between the rock and the hard place. It was the great people here that got me over the hard place.
Your Nana still sounds like my Mom. If I had not known better I would have thought Mom knew exactly what she was doing even after after she went crazy on the sitter, hitting her, and running her off. She even called me and told me she didn't care if I disowned her but she knew what she was doing and she never hit "that woman!" I guess Mom forgot that she was talking to my sister on the phone when she said to the sitter, "I hit you once and I will do it again." They can be SO convincing. They truly believe what they are saying. And my mom is very intelligent and manipulative. She has not lost either of those. That is why I started keeping a log. I would indicate things I knew as fact vs "mom said". It is also what told me that Mom could hold it together for a while and then melt down from the stress and exhaustion the effort to keep up appearances caused.
And I will say it again. This board is fantastic with great people who really do understand. It has given me my smile back even in the midst of this horrible journey. Thank you all!!!!!!
Love, Deb
My major guilt came in because I knew I could handle my dad if I could keep him in his home. Mom was another story!! Without giving up my family and moving in with them I could not do it from 4 hours away. Moving them here would be worse than moving them into Assisted Living. So I was literally caught between the rock and the hard place. It was the great people here that got me over the hard place.
Your Nana still sounds like my Mom. If I had not known better I would have thought Mom knew exactly what she was doing even after after she went crazy on the sitter, hitting her, and running her off. She even called me and told me she didn't care if I disowned her but she knew what she was doing and she never hit "that woman!" I guess Mom forgot that she was talking to my sister on the phone when she said to the sitter, "I hit you once and I will do it again." They can be SO convincing. They truly believe what they are saying. And my mom is very intelligent and manipulative. She has not lost either of those. That is why I started keeping a log. I would indicate things I knew as fact vs "mom said". It is also what told me that Mom could hold it together for a while and then melt down from the stress and exhaustion the effort to keep up appearances caused.
And I will say it again. This board is fantastic with great people who really do understand. It has given me my smile back even in the midst of this horrible journey. Thank you all!!!!!!
Love, Deb
Dingoes
11-08-2007, 12:56 AM
I just wish Nana had gotten more into the swing of assisted living when she was in the place before moving here. But she was very stubborn and hung on till the last possible second, while I think if she had been five or ten years younger when she went into AL she'd have enjoyed it more.
Then again, in her youth she only had a few interests: family, travel, and gambling, not necessarily in that order. ;) So once she realized there weren't any other canasta players there, that was about it for her interest in socializing with anyone else there. That's another reason I thought we would try having her here: I'm the mother of her two great-grandchildren, who still never fail to charm her.
So today I finally had the chance to speak to her doctor at the rehab place and we're on the same page for the time being. They're still working on adjusting her medications and double checking to make sure all traces of the UTI are gone, but once I explained that I work from my home and don't mind if she doesn't remember who I am the doctor said in this case it would probably be better for her to attempt coming home if we can get her meds set, since she's showing major paranoia there now and MIGHT be better in more familiar surroundings. Meeting with the caseworker on Monday and we'll take it from there.
So now I wait. I told the doctor we're hoping to have her home for Christmas and was told "let's see how it goes."
Then again, in her youth she only had a few interests: family, travel, and gambling, not necessarily in that order. ;) So once she realized there weren't any other canasta players there, that was about it for her interest in socializing with anyone else there. That's another reason I thought we would try having her here: I'm the mother of her two great-grandchildren, who still never fail to charm her.
So today I finally had the chance to speak to her doctor at the rehab place and we're on the same page for the time being. They're still working on adjusting her medications and double checking to make sure all traces of the UTI are gone, but once I explained that I work from my home and don't mind if she doesn't remember who I am the doctor said in this case it would probably be better for her to attempt coming home if we can get her meds set, since she's showing major paranoia there now and MIGHT be better in more familiar surroundings. Meeting with the caseworker on Monday and we'll take it from there.
So now I wait. I told the doctor we're hoping to have her home for Christmas and was told "let's see how it goes."
Martha H
11-08-2007, 08:07 AM
One word of warning - it is very damaging for children to have an adult in the house who has mood swings, is sometimes violent or abusive, or angry at them without any cause. It rocks their world. Sally has told about what happened in her family. If your Grandma has any kind of aggressive or irrational behavior, don't take her into yur home. And if those behaviors develop later, make sure she gets back into some kind of institution.
love,
Martha
love,
Martha
angel_bear
11-08-2007, 05:29 PM
yeah ... it's taken 2 years to get my kids back to some semblence of 'normal'
After fleeing our home town, my son exhibited signs of disturbances, self harming himself, putting himself in dangerous situations, lighting inappropriate fires (not a good thing in the middle of dry cane-fields), having suicidal thoughts. Why? Because he believed HE FAILED. He believed he failed me and he failed his grandparents. No amount of 'good' talking could make him think otherwise. The bad thoughts outweighed anything positive. He saw no hope left. He wanted to die.
He was 14.5yo when we left, and had just turned 15 by the time he was out of control. Psychiatrists here didn't help things by saying Yes, Cameron had problems, but it was his fathers fault (how????), so then Cameron blamed himself AND his father. Then Cameron felt GUILTY because he still blamed himsef for failing AND guilty because he hated his father. He wanted to die.
He left home at 15.5yo (that was a VERY LONG YEAR OF HE11 with him) with holes punched in the walls, small spot fire damage in his bedroom and on his bed, he had slashed all his clothes and his arms and legs. He was dabbling now with drugs from the losers across the road, all because he felt GUILTY that he couldn't do more. He moved back to our home town to seek a way to make himself feel better. He could visit his beloved Grandmother in her nursing home. He was trying to re-create something he could fix.
Just before he turned 16, he was homeless, unemployed and had nothing. He was sleeping in bus shelters. He finally went to his Salvation Army Church and asked for help. THEY took him in, fed him, clothed him and supported him in a way nobody else could (not even the Salvation Army up where we live now). He's living with his Youth Leader.
Cameron has been diagnosed schitzophrenic, brought on by trauma that initially started when we moved in with his Grandparents to help them and that the ensuing daily drama's impacted on him way more than we ever thought. We never, in our wildest dreams, thought that nursing two elderly people (not so old .. when we moved in, FIL was 69 & MIL was 72) would affect our kids, least of all our 'go with the flow' son. He now needs to lead a regimented lifestyle with everything planned ahead so that he can wrap his head around ensuing changes. He's been planning on coming home for Xmas this year since June, only because he needs to come to terms with 'visiting' home.
My daughters have been affected more so by the family disruption and abuse, and have become argumentative and angry. Although I am working on that, it's hard to distinguish between normal 'sibling rivalry' to violence. My now 15yo daughter has a tendency to hit people ... we're working on getting that behaviour out of her and we are succeeding slowly but surely. why? She's angry too. We left family and friends, support networks, schools because of the impact of the caring/family abuse. It is only now, 2 years later that she will talk about her feelings of what went on.
Our youngest 12yo is probably the most 'together' but immature kid I know. She has blocked a lot of it out so I am waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' which doesn't help things when I anticipate trouble.
So .. in my long winded way, what might be good for grandma might not be good for the rest of the family. Moving her home WILL impact on you and your family much more than you think, and especially if she already has paranid tendencies. My MIL went from a loving caring beautiful soul to an angry, hitting, screaming, kicking banshee who would drag my kids into her room and belt them because she believed they had stolen something. She would creep upstairs in the middle of the night and stand over my bed (my side!!) .. one time, with a knife.
Did we EVER think that would happen? nope.
After fleeing our home town, my son exhibited signs of disturbances, self harming himself, putting himself in dangerous situations, lighting inappropriate fires (not a good thing in the middle of dry cane-fields), having suicidal thoughts. Why? Because he believed HE FAILED. He believed he failed me and he failed his grandparents. No amount of 'good' talking could make him think otherwise. The bad thoughts outweighed anything positive. He saw no hope left. He wanted to die.
He was 14.5yo when we left, and had just turned 15 by the time he was out of control. Psychiatrists here didn't help things by saying Yes, Cameron had problems, but it was his fathers fault (how????), so then Cameron blamed himself AND his father. Then Cameron felt GUILTY because he still blamed himsef for failing AND guilty because he hated his father. He wanted to die.
He left home at 15.5yo (that was a VERY LONG YEAR OF HE11 with him) with holes punched in the walls, small spot fire damage in his bedroom and on his bed, he had slashed all his clothes and his arms and legs. He was dabbling now with drugs from the losers across the road, all because he felt GUILTY that he couldn't do more. He moved back to our home town to seek a way to make himself feel better. He could visit his beloved Grandmother in her nursing home. He was trying to re-create something he could fix.
Just before he turned 16, he was homeless, unemployed and had nothing. He was sleeping in bus shelters. He finally went to his Salvation Army Church and asked for help. THEY took him in, fed him, clothed him and supported him in a way nobody else could (not even the Salvation Army up where we live now). He's living with his Youth Leader.
Cameron has been diagnosed schitzophrenic, brought on by trauma that initially started when we moved in with his Grandparents to help them and that the ensuing daily drama's impacted on him way more than we ever thought. We never, in our wildest dreams, thought that nursing two elderly people (not so old .. when we moved in, FIL was 69 & MIL was 72) would affect our kids, least of all our 'go with the flow' son. He now needs to lead a regimented lifestyle with everything planned ahead so that he can wrap his head around ensuing changes. He's been planning on coming home for Xmas this year since June, only because he needs to come to terms with 'visiting' home.
My daughters have been affected more so by the family disruption and abuse, and have become argumentative and angry. Although I am working on that, it's hard to distinguish between normal 'sibling rivalry' to violence. My now 15yo daughter has a tendency to hit people ... we're working on getting that behaviour out of her and we are succeeding slowly but surely. why? She's angry too. We left family and friends, support networks, schools because of the impact of the caring/family abuse. It is only now, 2 years later that she will talk about her feelings of what went on.
Our youngest 12yo is probably the most 'together' but immature kid I know. She has blocked a lot of it out so I am waiting for the 'other shoe to drop' which doesn't help things when I anticipate trouble.
So .. in my long winded way, what might be good for grandma might not be good for the rest of the family. Moving her home WILL impact on you and your family much more than you think, and especially if she already has paranid tendencies. My MIL went from a loving caring beautiful soul to an angry, hitting, screaming, kicking banshee who would drag my kids into her room and belt them because she believed they had stolen something. She would creep upstairs in the middle of the night and stand over my bed (my side!!) .. one time, with a knife.
Did we EVER think that would happen? nope.
Dingoes
11-09-2007, 01:31 AM
YIKES!
angelbear, your warning comes from personal experience and I'm taking it very seriously. But when I said I have the family kids, I probably should have clarified that my son is about to turn 20 and lives at college and my daughter is 18 and in her senior year of high school. If I were to worry about either kid it would be my daughter since she still lives here, but she and Nana have always gotten along well -- so far, anyway. If anything, Nana got much nicer to my daughter after moving in here (she's old school and tends to favor the males in the family).
And if she ever turns actually violent she'd be out of here and in a proper facility immediately. She has hit me once, but I was in her face and screaming at her and honestly I doubt that's going to happen again now that I'm learning more about how to handle someone in her stage of AD.
I'm aware that taking her back here is a risk, and Nana's new (geriatric/AD specialist doctor) tells me this phase is the hardest of all of them. It might not work out. I'd say it's got probably a 1 in 4 shot at working out, if that. Still, I think I owe it to who she was, and to all her close family who are already dead, to try. If nothing else, I'll know I really honestly gave it everything I had before consigning Nana to what I know is her worst nightmare.
A side note: I'm so sorry to hear about your son. From what I understand, schizophrenia has a biological base and tends to hit young men in their late teens and 20s (I'm sure stress is a factor that can make symptoms manifest sooner or more intensely, but I don't think moving in with your folks is what caused the underlying illness). My MIL was a psychiatric nurse for many years and I hope your son has been able to get access to good meds...though I suspect you're doing everything you can for him. My heart goes out to you, hit on both sides like that.
angelbear, your warning comes from personal experience and I'm taking it very seriously. But when I said I have the family kids, I probably should have clarified that my son is about to turn 20 and lives at college and my daughter is 18 and in her senior year of high school. If I were to worry about either kid it would be my daughter since she still lives here, but she and Nana have always gotten along well -- so far, anyway. If anything, Nana got much nicer to my daughter after moving in here (she's old school and tends to favor the males in the family).
And if she ever turns actually violent she'd be out of here and in a proper facility immediately. She has hit me once, but I was in her face and screaming at her and honestly I doubt that's going to happen again now that I'm learning more about how to handle someone in her stage of AD.
I'm aware that taking her back here is a risk, and Nana's new (geriatric/AD specialist doctor) tells me this phase is the hardest of all of them. It might not work out. I'd say it's got probably a 1 in 4 shot at working out, if that. Still, I think I owe it to who she was, and to all her close family who are already dead, to try. If nothing else, I'll know I really honestly gave it everything I had before consigning Nana to what I know is her worst nightmare.
A side note: I'm so sorry to hear about your son. From what I understand, schizophrenia has a biological base and tends to hit young men in their late teens and 20s (I'm sure stress is a factor that can make symptoms manifest sooner or more intensely, but I don't think moving in with your folks is what caused the underlying illness). My MIL was a psychiatric nurse for many years and I hope your son has been able to get access to good meds...though I suspect you're doing everything you can for him. My heart goes out to you, hit on both sides like that.