osteoblast
11-09-2007, 04:11 PM
Hi folks! I have been on forteo for a little over a year now and while labs show bone turnover has increased alot, little improvement was shown on dexa. It wasn't the same dexa machine that I was previously tested on -so that might have confused things a little. Also, I know some say don't look for density changes so early it takes time.
I am post menopausal 55, and never did hrt. But, now I seem to be losing muscle mass , despite alot of exercise and weight lifting. I have read this could be related to low testosterone. Maybe it is something else - I don't know. I have an appt. soon to see a gyno about hormones to see if anything could help with the muscle loss. I am having other post meno changes that I don't like .Let's just say it has to do with one of the basic drives . Anyway. My thinking now is that loss of muscle mass is not a good thing because as muscle pulls on bone it makes the bone stronger. I have just done so much weightlifting over the past year that my lack of contour and bulge doesn't make sense to me. My main concern is not the lack of contour though but rather trying to get the effect of muscle to strengthen bone.
Also, as I didn't do hrt -too spooked with all the studies. I just wonder if now I should do something . I have read about very low dose estradiol and positive effects on bone density BUT I also read it slows turnover. If it slows turnover that would probably be contraindicated with the forteo now which is supposed to amp up the turnover.
Does anyone have any thoughts about testosterone-estradiol - or other hormones. I was so negative on all this stuff but I am now more open minded because I am on a mission to help my bones. Breast cancer has not hit my family -so that risk is probably not great, although breast cancer seems so prevalent now that I don't think anyone is safe.
I am post menopausal 55, and never did hrt. But, now I seem to be losing muscle mass , despite alot of exercise and weight lifting. I have read this could be related to low testosterone. Maybe it is something else - I don't know. I have an appt. soon to see a gyno about hormones to see if anything could help with the muscle loss. I am having other post meno changes that I don't like .Let's just say it has to do with one of the basic drives . Anyway. My thinking now is that loss of muscle mass is not a good thing because as muscle pulls on bone it makes the bone stronger. I have just done so much weightlifting over the past year that my lack of contour and bulge doesn't make sense to me. My main concern is not the lack of contour though but rather trying to get the effect of muscle to strengthen bone.
Also, as I didn't do hrt -too spooked with all the studies. I just wonder if now I should do something . I have read about very low dose estradiol and positive effects on bone density BUT I also read it slows turnover. If it slows turnover that would probably be contraindicated with the forteo now which is supposed to amp up the turnover.
Does anyone have any thoughts about testosterone-estradiol - or other hormones. I was so negative on all this stuff but I am now more open minded because I am on a mission to help my bones. Breast cancer has not hit my family -so that risk is probably not great, although breast cancer seems so prevalent now that I don't think anyone is safe.
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starfish81
11-09-2007, 04:45 PM
I've been on bio-identical testosterone, progesterone, and DHEA for a couple of years now. I was on estradiol too but had to stop it after a few months-no specialist could figure out why I was getting dizzy spells along with blood pressure drops and then my primary care said it was probably the estrogen and sure enough......Anyway, none of the above has done anything for my BMD or anything else related to menopause either for that matter (including what you mentioned), with the exception of relieving hot flashes. I do have more muscle mass, but that could be because I've been working with a personal trainer for over a year now-testosterone may have helped, but I'm not sure.
You may be wondering how testosterone can alleviate hot flashes when it's estrogen that doctors keep recommending for that. Well, apparently testosterone breaks down (referred to as "cascading" according to the age-management clinic where I get them) into an estrogen by-product IF the body requires that particular hormone.
I don't want to have to use these substances the rest of my life, so I discussed this with my acupuncturist a couple of weeks ago and she suggested using them (they're topicals) every other day instead of daily. I did that, and don't feel any different. Thus, I'm thinking the time has come to wean myself off entirely. I've never used Forteo so am not sure how that would interact with bio-identical hormones.
You may be wondering how testosterone can alleviate hot flashes when it's estrogen that doctors keep recommending for that. Well, apparently testosterone breaks down (referred to as "cascading" according to the age-management clinic where I get them) into an estrogen by-product IF the body requires that particular hormone.
I don't want to have to use these substances the rest of my life, so I discussed this with my acupuncturist a couple of weeks ago and she suggested using them (they're topicals) every other day instead of daily. I did that, and don't feel any different. Thus, I'm thinking the time has come to wean myself off entirely. I've never used Forteo so am not sure how that would interact with bio-identical hormones.
starfish81
11-09-2007, 04:51 PM
Osteoblast-just thought of something else. I complained to my trainer that, despite all the weights I'm doing, I just don't have the muscle definition that I hoped for (I have more muscle, according to tests done with fat calipers and special scales, it just doesn't show). She said that certain body types will never get that sculptured look no matter how hard they try. She says because I'm tall and slim, my muscles are proportionally longer and therefore won't achieve the bulk that a mesomorphic body would. Don't ask me how to explain why ballet dancers have legs like they do......I'm just repeating what was told to me ;)
osteoblast
11-09-2007, 05:18 PM
Starfish-hmmm it looks like all the things I was considering , you have tried and haven't found to be of much help at all. That is not very encouraging. Are you several years post meno too?
About muscle definition, just a few years ago when I walked with ankle weights I had a muscle that sort of sculpted my lower leg - I liked that.Now, I just can't seem to get that muscle to come out again. Also my biceps which used to show a mini bulge when I lifted weights are not happening either. Well, I will just continue because I have to do what I can do even if visible results are not there.
From what I have read maybe just maybe it is the lack of testosterone that is the reason for the lack of muscle development. Perhaps it has helped you.Do you think you had any negative reactions to the testosterone?? Maybe it is hard to say because you are taking a number of the hormones together.
I wonder if a mainstream md gyno would prescribe testosterone?
Did you also try HGH?
About muscle definition, just a few years ago when I walked with ankle weights I had a muscle that sort of sculpted my lower leg - I liked that.Now, I just can't seem to get that muscle to come out again. Also my biceps which used to show a mini bulge when I lifted weights are not happening either. Well, I will just continue because I have to do what I can do even if visible results are not there.
From what I have read maybe just maybe it is the lack of testosterone that is the reason for the lack of muscle development. Perhaps it has helped you.Do you think you had any negative reactions to the testosterone?? Maybe it is hard to say because you are taking a number of the hormones together.
I wonder if a mainstream md gyno would prescribe testosterone?
Did you also try HGH?
starfish81
11-09-2007, 08:18 PM
Hi Osteoblast-I'm 51 and began menopause at 48 (naturally) so guess I'm a few years post. I had absolutely no adverse reactions to the testosterone or progesterone. Fortunately, everything I was using came separately, so was able to cut back on this & that until I found a combination that worked. For sure it was the estradiol that caused the dizziness and blood pressure drops. I'm only too happy to be off that!
And yes, I'm the one who spent a small fortune on HgH injections-only to experience a 6% lumbar BMD drop over the year I was doing it. It did wonderful things for my waistline ;) but not the bones. The age-management clinic doctors said they'd never had anyone lose BMD while on it; guess I'm a first.
Most would disagree with me, but the fact that nothing works on me to increase BMD has led me to believe that my losses may indeed be a natural thing for my body. Actually, I wish I'd never had the DEXAs in the first place :(. Sure my lumbar score (-3.4) looks awful on paper, but I'm strong, healthy, and look great for my age. I eat right, exercise lots (including bends, twists and stretches of all those supposedly "diseased" vertebrae) and have never broken anything despite some spectacular falls skiing. I'm 5'6 and a half and 125lb and have very small wrists and ankles-so I wouldn't expect my BMD to parallel that of a beefy 20-something :D.
And yes, I'm the one who spent a small fortune on HgH injections-only to experience a 6% lumbar BMD drop over the year I was doing it. It did wonderful things for my waistline ;) but not the bones. The age-management clinic doctors said they'd never had anyone lose BMD while on it; guess I'm a first.
Most would disagree with me, but the fact that nothing works on me to increase BMD has led me to believe that my losses may indeed be a natural thing for my body. Actually, I wish I'd never had the DEXAs in the first place :(. Sure my lumbar score (-3.4) looks awful on paper, but I'm strong, healthy, and look great for my age. I eat right, exercise lots (including bends, twists and stretches of all those supposedly "diseased" vertebrae) and have never broken anything despite some spectacular falls skiing. I'm 5'6 and a half and 125lb and have very small wrists and ankles-so I wouldn't expect my BMD to parallel that of a beefy 20-something :D.
Elaine444
11-14-2007, 11:15 PM
Hi, this is my first post on these boards and this thread caught my attention! I am 35 years old and was diagnosed with osteoporosis in September 2006. I had a total hysterectomy and bilateral salpingo oopherectomy (removal of both ovaries and fallopian tubes) for endometriosis in August 2005. Big mistake for me with huge problems since but that is another story. I am fairly thin (5'6" and 126 lbs but was only 102 lbs at time of first dexa scan) and have many risk factors for osteoporosis (history of smoking although I quit over a year ago, Grandma has severe osteoporosis with fractures, surgical menopause, treated with Lupron, previous fracture from a ballet career in my early twenties, history of anorexia, and the list goes on).
I wanted to mention that my first year post op, I took compounded bioidentical progesterone and Triest in various forms but had lots of trouble absorbing it and had many many menopausal symptoms. I lost a lot of muscle mass and also weight due to chronic nausea. I did try testosterone in cream form, troches, and synthetic testosterone in Estratest, but every single form gave me severe migraines and too many weird fluctuations.
I had my first dexa scan in August 2006 (after begging for one due to my history and problems) and my scores were as follows:
Spine (not sure which part) was -3.2
femoral neck (right hip) was -1.8.
I was shocked at my scores and this prompted me to quit smoking cold turkey (which I have maintained successfully). I also switched to a stronger form of hrt (estradiol) in the form of the Vivelle Dot patch at .075 mg (which has helped alleviate some symptoms but not others). I was already taking calcium (1500 mg) and vitamin D (800 IU). I can not tolerate magnesium in any form except through foods without getting sick with body aches for some reason. I have done some light weightlifting and exercising but not consistantly due to fibromyalgia brought on by my hysterectomy and also pelvic pain due to adhesions and scar tissue. I also gained weight (14 lbs) from quiting smoking and eating better and healthier. Other than those things I have not done much else to fight my osteoporosis. I have refused to take any of the bisphosphonates due to an extremely sensitive stomach and sensitivity to meds in general and the fear of side effects and osteonecrosis. I am young yet to resort to those.
One year later, this last September, I had another DEXA scan at the same office and my scores improved to the following:
spine -3.0
femoral neck (right hip) -1.4
femoral neck (left hip) -1.2
wrist -1
So my spine improved by .2 and my hip by .4 which to me is significant. I have also had my estradiol levels checked since being on the patch and they have been much higher (130 can't think of measurement offhand) compared to 22 when I was on the compouded Triest. So I do credit the estradiol hrt with helping to improve my scores as well as quiting smoking and gaining weight. Of coure, for me the benefits of taking hrt far outweigh the risks due to my age and surgery status. Anyway, just thought I would share a positive outcome as far as bone density improvement with hrt.
I continue to have some loss of muscle mass and my testosterone levels have tested extremely low (as they would without ovaries) so I am not sure if it is from that or from not being as active as I was before my hysterectomy. I do also find it frustrating that I have not been able to build muscle in my arms from lifting dumbells four times a week for 1/2 hour. If only I could find a testosterone I could tolerate.
I am also struggling with an ever increasing stoop in my upper back and I am fighting hard with exercise to stop it from progressing but of course my fibromyalgia pain makes it hard to do. This is very depressing because I used to have a strong, straight back in my dancing days. Oh the joys of early menopause!
I think having your hormone levels tested would provide valuable information. There is a good book called "Screaming to be Heard" by Dr. Elizabeth Vliet (hormone specialist) that discusses hormones and issues like breast cancer and bone loss. She also discusses that you need estradiol levels above 90 to really have any positive impact on bone density. It is worth reading.
Hope this helps!
I wanted to mention that my first year post op, I took compounded bioidentical progesterone and Triest in various forms but had lots of trouble absorbing it and had many many menopausal symptoms. I lost a lot of muscle mass and also weight due to chronic nausea. I did try testosterone in cream form, troches, and synthetic testosterone in Estratest, but every single form gave me severe migraines and too many weird fluctuations.
I had my first dexa scan in August 2006 (after begging for one due to my history and problems) and my scores were as follows:
Spine (not sure which part) was -3.2
femoral neck (right hip) was -1.8.
I was shocked at my scores and this prompted me to quit smoking cold turkey (which I have maintained successfully). I also switched to a stronger form of hrt (estradiol) in the form of the Vivelle Dot patch at .075 mg (which has helped alleviate some symptoms but not others). I was already taking calcium (1500 mg) and vitamin D (800 IU). I can not tolerate magnesium in any form except through foods without getting sick with body aches for some reason. I have done some light weightlifting and exercising but not consistantly due to fibromyalgia brought on by my hysterectomy and also pelvic pain due to adhesions and scar tissue. I also gained weight (14 lbs) from quiting smoking and eating better and healthier. Other than those things I have not done much else to fight my osteoporosis. I have refused to take any of the bisphosphonates due to an extremely sensitive stomach and sensitivity to meds in general and the fear of side effects and osteonecrosis. I am young yet to resort to those.
One year later, this last September, I had another DEXA scan at the same office and my scores improved to the following:
spine -3.0
femoral neck (right hip) -1.4
femoral neck (left hip) -1.2
wrist -1
So my spine improved by .2 and my hip by .4 which to me is significant. I have also had my estradiol levels checked since being on the patch and they have been much higher (130 can't think of measurement offhand) compared to 22 when I was on the compouded Triest. So I do credit the estradiol hrt with helping to improve my scores as well as quiting smoking and gaining weight. Of coure, for me the benefits of taking hrt far outweigh the risks due to my age and surgery status. Anyway, just thought I would share a positive outcome as far as bone density improvement with hrt.
I continue to have some loss of muscle mass and my testosterone levels have tested extremely low (as they would without ovaries) so I am not sure if it is from that or from not being as active as I was before my hysterectomy. I do also find it frustrating that I have not been able to build muscle in my arms from lifting dumbells four times a week for 1/2 hour. If only I could find a testosterone I could tolerate.
I am also struggling with an ever increasing stoop in my upper back and I am fighting hard with exercise to stop it from progressing but of course my fibromyalgia pain makes it hard to do. This is very depressing because I used to have a strong, straight back in my dancing days. Oh the joys of early menopause!
I think having your hormone levels tested would provide valuable information. There is a good book called "Screaming to be Heard" by Dr. Elizabeth Vliet (hormone specialist) that discusses hormones and issues like breast cancer and bone loss. She also discusses that you need estradiol levels above 90 to really have any positive impact on bone density. It is worth reading.
Hope this helps!
osteoblast
11-15-2007, 04:07 PM
Elaine444-Welcome to this board!
For a 35 year young person you have been through alot. I am glad to hear though that you are working towards achieving health. It is nothing short of fantastic that you have stopped smoking- this is so good.Congratulations!!!!!! I am sure it wasn't easy with everything pushing your anxiety and stress buttons over the past two years. It seems almost every health issue that I research, I find that smoking makes it worse. So, this is a huge step. And, also good to hear that you are able to put some meat on your bones. That is very important too.
And, now you are in a struggle/project to strengthen your bones. At least you have had improvement since your first dexa. That is good.I hope it continues to improve for you. It sounds like you think it was the estradiol since the bioidentical progesterone and various forms of testosterone didn't work for you because of side effect problems. What kind of doctor are you seeing for the hormones-gyno, endo , or your pcp?
So, you too are having trouble with muscle mass. And, on this you think it would be the testosterone that would help. But, you say you just can't find one that you can tolerate. That's tough. I happened to see a show recently on the local public broadcasting station- just this past weekend with Dr. Perricone. It was so weird because I came in during the middle of it and he was talking about loss of muscle mass- sarcopenia and I had just started a thread on it a few days before. Well, he mentioned a number of supplements but seemed to focus on glutamine for muscle building. So, this is something that I will be researching-I am going to try to find his book at the library.When I have had time to research this I will post , maybe it would be something to try.Have you heard about glutamine or any other supplements that might help?
Thank you for the book suggestion, I am going to see if the library has Dr. Vliet's book, if not I will check the bookstore. I want to go in prepared when I see the gyn.
About the stoop in your back, did the doctor do an x-ray to be sure that you have not had any fracture that would cause the stoop?? If there are no fractures, then perhaps some physical therapy to learn exercises to stregthen your back muscles to assist with your posture would be helpful. At your youthful age you should really nail this down now so you build up your muscles for the long haul. My doc prescribed phys ther. 1x a week for a year. It didn't take that much to learn quite a number of helpful exercises. And, the therapist said come back after 6 months or so for a follow up. I would think your insurance would cover this and it could be so helpful. With your experience in dance, perhaps you could really enjoy the movement (as sort of a mental therapy) and get the benefit of building strength.
That gets back to the muscle building issue and its importance. As I said I am going to seek out the book you mentioned . If you have any other thoughts on this , please share. And, of course comments from others would be great too. It seems like a most important project for us .
I went through menopause without hormones because I was spooked off of them with the Nurse's Study that came out showing the harm of hrt. But now with osteoporosis, if I can take a low dose of something that might help in some way it would be great.
Thank you for the suggestion of getting my hormone levels checked, it seems odd but over this past year with seeing docs about the osteo no one has suggested getting the hormones checked. Maybe they know what a 55 yr. old post meno woman's reading would look like and feel there isn't anything to be done?? I have an appt. with a gyno specifically to discuss the hormone situation and will of course get into the osteoporosis and loss of muscle mass. I just have to be sure that if any hormones are added that I don't diminish the effect of the forteo that I am taking.I know some on this board have used some hormone therapy and forteo together. DesertBloom, if you read this HI, I hope you could comment on what hormones you are on with the forteo if you would feel comfortable with that.
Again, welcome Elaine maybe we can find something to bulk up our muscles.
For a 35 year young person you have been through alot. I am glad to hear though that you are working towards achieving health. It is nothing short of fantastic that you have stopped smoking- this is so good.Congratulations!!!!!! I am sure it wasn't easy with everything pushing your anxiety and stress buttons over the past two years. It seems almost every health issue that I research, I find that smoking makes it worse. So, this is a huge step. And, also good to hear that you are able to put some meat on your bones. That is very important too.
And, now you are in a struggle/project to strengthen your bones. At least you have had improvement since your first dexa. That is good.I hope it continues to improve for you. It sounds like you think it was the estradiol since the bioidentical progesterone and various forms of testosterone didn't work for you because of side effect problems. What kind of doctor are you seeing for the hormones-gyno, endo , or your pcp?
So, you too are having trouble with muscle mass. And, on this you think it would be the testosterone that would help. But, you say you just can't find one that you can tolerate. That's tough. I happened to see a show recently on the local public broadcasting station- just this past weekend with Dr. Perricone. It was so weird because I came in during the middle of it and he was talking about loss of muscle mass- sarcopenia and I had just started a thread on it a few days before. Well, he mentioned a number of supplements but seemed to focus on glutamine for muscle building. So, this is something that I will be researching-I am going to try to find his book at the library.When I have had time to research this I will post , maybe it would be something to try.Have you heard about glutamine or any other supplements that might help?
Thank you for the book suggestion, I am going to see if the library has Dr. Vliet's book, if not I will check the bookstore. I want to go in prepared when I see the gyn.
About the stoop in your back, did the doctor do an x-ray to be sure that you have not had any fracture that would cause the stoop?? If there are no fractures, then perhaps some physical therapy to learn exercises to stregthen your back muscles to assist with your posture would be helpful. At your youthful age you should really nail this down now so you build up your muscles for the long haul. My doc prescribed phys ther. 1x a week for a year. It didn't take that much to learn quite a number of helpful exercises. And, the therapist said come back after 6 months or so for a follow up. I would think your insurance would cover this and it could be so helpful. With your experience in dance, perhaps you could really enjoy the movement (as sort of a mental therapy) and get the benefit of building strength.
That gets back to the muscle building issue and its importance. As I said I am going to seek out the book you mentioned . If you have any other thoughts on this , please share. And, of course comments from others would be great too. It seems like a most important project for us .
I went through menopause without hormones because I was spooked off of them with the Nurse's Study that came out showing the harm of hrt. But now with osteoporosis, if I can take a low dose of something that might help in some way it would be great.
Thank you for the suggestion of getting my hormone levels checked, it seems odd but over this past year with seeing docs about the osteo no one has suggested getting the hormones checked. Maybe they know what a 55 yr. old post meno woman's reading would look like and feel there isn't anything to be done?? I have an appt. with a gyno specifically to discuss the hormone situation and will of course get into the osteoporosis and loss of muscle mass. I just have to be sure that if any hormones are added that I don't diminish the effect of the forteo that I am taking.I know some on this board have used some hormone therapy and forteo together. DesertBloom, if you read this HI, I hope you could comment on what hormones you are on with the forteo if you would feel comfortable with that.
Again, welcome Elaine maybe we can find something to bulk up our muscles.
DesertBloom
11-15-2007, 10:23 PM
Hi Osteo and Welcome Elaine, glad you could join us. It's always great to have new contributors to this group. Elaine good luck with all your struggles and please do check on a possible fracture. I have to do this once a year or more because I do have the stooped posture, and I'm going to physical therapy for strengthening exercises 3 x's a week for 6 weeks now and will continue for another month or so, and hopefully this will fix my 3 ruptured cervical discs/posture-yikes... They're also giving me traction on my neck and thoracic spine for the posture prob, pain, and disc situation, because the discs are causing numbness in both arms and hands from the disc protruding into the spinal canal. I hope you find a solution to all your problems. Welcome Again... I've had many fractures and don't want "any" more surgeries if I can help it, so make sure you check this out, because "so" many compression fx's go undiagnosed-which just kills me thinking about it, when they can be fix if caught in time.
Osteo, sorry I haven't posted about your several questions but I've been having computer probs that limit my online time. I'll get back to you over the weekend with the answers you're interested in. I haven't forgot about you or anyone else, just trying to fix this blasted machine. But for now I'm on Activella (Hormone) 1.0/.5 mg of estradiol/norethindrone. I'll need to explain this further later because the story is quite complex. I also need to update you on the tai chi, but I'm worried my internet connection will go down at any second. Hope you get all of this.
Talk to you soon:)
Osteo, sorry I haven't posted about your several questions but I've been having computer probs that limit my online time. I'll get back to you over the weekend with the answers you're interested in. I haven't forgot about you or anyone else, just trying to fix this blasted machine. But for now I'm on Activella (Hormone) 1.0/.5 mg of estradiol/norethindrone. I'll need to explain this further later because the story is quite complex. I also need to update you on the tai chi, but I'm worried my internet connection will go down at any second. Hope you get all of this.
Talk to you soon:)
Elaine444
11-15-2007, 11:13 PM
Thank you for welcoming me here osteoblast and Desertbloom! I have been searching and searching for a group to talk to about my osteoporosis struggles and was glad to stumble into this group. It seems like a very open minded and smart group.
As far as who I see for my hormones, I see a general practitioner who is also a naturopathic doctor. The gynecologist who did my hysterectomy was clueless about hormones and I just could not get him to listen to me. I went to a compounding pharmacy and asked what doctors they worked with, and then started calling around. There were only two doctors in my insurance network that worked with the compounded hormones. One was the doctor I see now, the other was a female gynecologist (in the same practice as my other gyn) specializing in midlife/menopausal health. I wanted to see the gyn but was told she was not taking new patients. Later I did end up seeing her for gynecological problems and have also worked with her on hormones, but for the most part I work with my primary care/naturopathic doctor. She has let me call her at home and sees me at the drop of a hat where the gynecologist is really hard to get into. I have had such a rollar coaster of a time with hormones that I need a lot of help!
You know, I have not done any research about supplements that build muscle mass. It just never crossed my mind to research this area since I seem to be chasing so many fires at once. I have heard of glutamine but am not that familiar with it. This really sparks my interest though and I am sure going to look into it now! My doctor did mention that my DHEA levels were abnormally low and I have thought about supplementing with that. It is supposed to be a precursor to testosterone.
I have not had an xray on my upper back yet. It seems to be really hard for me to get anyone to take this seriously (I had to beg and plead for my first DEXA scan because no one would believe that at my age I was at high risk even though I lost both ovaries). The rheumatologist I saw just handed me a prescription for fosomax and said to see my primary care doctor with any concerns. He did test calcium and vitamin D levels (normal) and did that 24 hour urine excretion test (normal) but that is about it. However, becuase of my issues with fibromyalgia and pelvic pain and inability to work fulltime (I now work part time), I have been referred to and evaluated for a sixteen week chronic pain program that includes physical and occupational therapy and non drug forms of pain management. I already take Tramadol and Lortabs as needed but I don't want to be dependant on these meds forever and they actually make the pelvic pain worse becuase of constipation on them. The program is ten hours a week (but not all of it exercise obviously). I mentioned that I desperately need guidance with exercises to strengthen my back, arm, abdominal, and leg muscles. Right now I exercise on my own (some of the exercises I use are from the book "Strong Women Strong Bones" by Dr. Miriam Nelson) but I don't know if I am doing things right or the right exercises and I certainly could use motivation. I don't want to go to just anybody because of my osteoporosis and other conditions that make things more complicated and risky. This program starts in January.
hopefully this will fix my 3 ruptured cervical discs/posture-yikes... They're also giving me traction on my neck and thoracic spine for the posture prob, pain, and disc situation, because the discs are causing numbness in both arms and hands from the disc protruding into the spinal canal.
I am sorry to hear about your ruptured discs desertbloom! Sounds like you have really had your share of struggles too! When I read about your numbness in both arms and hands my heart just about stopped beating. I have been having these strange numbness and tingling sensations in my arms and hands for the past few months. Sort of like when your limbs "fall asleep". A very uncomfortable feeling. It comes and goes. It never occured to me that it could have something to do with my posture or back problems but this does make sense. I feel like such a hypochondriac that I have stopped telling doctors about my problems unless it is something really bad so I have just let it slide. I just assumed it had something to do with either fibromyalgia or my hormones being so out of whack. I have a lot of stiffness in my neck and boy does it hurt when I move it the wrong way. One of the physical therapy evaluators mumbled something to himself about my neck protruding forward and being out of alignment. I am always messaging my neck because it feels strained. I have not had a lot of pain in my upper back, just the stooped posture and rounded shoulders. I do have to be careful with back exercises and lifting the dumbells becuase my upper back muscles and shoulder blade muscles strain very easily and then it hurts. So what kind of xray will detect a compression fracture? Would it be a bone scan or MRI or something else? I have often wondered if people can actually get these fractures without pain. My Grandma (who is ninety now) has had lots of back problems and a wrist fracture also. She lost a lot of height in the last twenty years. I do have her physique so this worries me. She has been very sick in the past few years (colon cancer and now battling pneumonia) so I have not been able to talk to her much about it. She has outlived two husbands and just keeps fighting. She is one tough lady!
Thank you both for sharing so much with me! Boy, I have learned something already from this group! Maybe when I start the pain program I will ask the physical therapist about doing a possible xray for my upper back. They know about my osteoporosis and my exercise goals. Surely they would want to monitor this before starting me out on anything strenuous. I can certainly understand your not wanting any more surgeries desertbloom. Believe me! Thanks again for taking the time to respond! Good luck osteoblast with your upcoming appointment! Some doctors don't believe in hormone testing and go by how you feel so you might have trouble with getting your hormones tested, but I like to monitor my levels and know how much estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone I am getting so I nag them until I get them to test me. :D
Have a great weekend everyone!
Elaine
As far as who I see for my hormones, I see a general practitioner who is also a naturopathic doctor. The gynecologist who did my hysterectomy was clueless about hormones and I just could not get him to listen to me. I went to a compounding pharmacy and asked what doctors they worked with, and then started calling around. There were only two doctors in my insurance network that worked with the compounded hormones. One was the doctor I see now, the other was a female gynecologist (in the same practice as my other gyn) specializing in midlife/menopausal health. I wanted to see the gyn but was told she was not taking new patients. Later I did end up seeing her for gynecological problems and have also worked with her on hormones, but for the most part I work with my primary care/naturopathic doctor. She has let me call her at home and sees me at the drop of a hat where the gynecologist is really hard to get into. I have had such a rollar coaster of a time with hormones that I need a lot of help!
You know, I have not done any research about supplements that build muscle mass. It just never crossed my mind to research this area since I seem to be chasing so many fires at once. I have heard of glutamine but am not that familiar with it. This really sparks my interest though and I am sure going to look into it now! My doctor did mention that my DHEA levels were abnormally low and I have thought about supplementing with that. It is supposed to be a precursor to testosterone.
I have not had an xray on my upper back yet. It seems to be really hard for me to get anyone to take this seriously (I had to beg and plead for my first DEXA scan because no one would believe that at my age I was at high risk even though I lost both ovaries). The rheumatologist I saw just handed me a prescription for fosomax and said to see my primary care doctor with any concerns. He did test calcium and vitamin D levels (normal) and did that 24 hour urine excretion test (normal) but that is about it. However, becuase of my issues with fibromyalgia and pelvic pain and inability to work fulltime (I now work part time), I have been referred to and evaluated for a sixteen week chronic pain program that includes physical and occupational therapy and non drug forms of pain management. I already take Tramadol and Lortabs as needed but I don't want to be dependant on these meds forever and they actually make the pelvic pain worse becuase of constipation on them. The program is ten hours a week (but not all of it exercise obviously). I mentioned that I desperately need guidance with exercises to strengthen my back, arm, abdominal, and leg muscles. Right now I exercise on my own (some of the exercises I use are from the book "Strong Women Strong Bones" by Dr. Miriam Nelson) but I don't know if I am doing things right or the right exercises and I certainly could use motivation. I don't want to go to just anybody because of my osteoporosis and other conditions that make things more complicated and risky. This program starts in January.
hopefully this will fix my 3 ruptured cervical discs/posture-yikes... They're also giving me traction on my neck and thoracic spine for the posture prob, pain, and disc situation, because the discs are causing numbness in both arms and hands from the disc protruding into the spinal canal.
I am sorry to hear about your ruptured discs desertbloom! Sounds like you have really had your share of struggles too! When I read about your numbness in both arms and hands my heart just about stopped beating. I have been having these strange numbness and tingling sensations in my arms and hands for the past few months. Sort of like when your limbs "fall asleep". A very uncomfortable feeling. It comes and goes. It never occured to me that it could have something to do with my posture or back problems but this does make sense. I feel like such a hypochondriac that I have stopped telling doctors about my problems unless it is something really bad so I have just let it slide. I just assumed it had something to do with either fibromyalgia or my hormones being so out of whack. I have a lot of stiffness in my neck and boy does it hurt when I move it the wrong way. One of the physical therapy evaluators mumbled something to himself about my neck protruding forward and being out of alignment. I am always messaging my neck because it feels strained. I have not had a lot of pain in my upper back, just the stooped posture and rounded shoulders. I do have to be careful with back exercises and lifting the dumbells becuase my upper back muscles and shoulder blade muscles strain very easily and then it hurts. So what kind of xray will detect a compression fracture? Would it be a bone scan or MRI or something else? I have often wondered if people can actually get these fractures without pain. My Grandma (who is ninety now) has had lots of back problems and a wrist fracture also. She lost a lot of height in the last twenty years. I do have her physique so this worries me. She has been very sick in the past few years (colon cancer and now battling pneumonia) so I have not been able to talk to her much about it. She has outlived two husbands and just keeps fighting. She is one tough lady!
Thank you both for sharing so much with me! Boy, I have learned something already from this group! Maybe when I start the pain program I will ask the physical therapist about doing a possible xray for my upper back. They know about my osteoporosis and my exercise goals. Surely they would want to monitor this before starting me out on anything strenuous. I can certainly understand your not wanting any more surgeries desertbloom. Believe me! Thanks again for taking the time to respond! Good luck osteoblast with your upcoming appointment! Some doctors don't believe in hormone testing and go by how you feel so you might have trouble with getting your hormones tested, but I like to monitor my levels and know how much estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone I am getting so I nag them until I get them to test me. :D
Have a great weekend everyone!
Elaine
osteoblast
11-16-2007, 02:32 PM
Elaine-You too have provided alot of food for thought. Glad you have come to this board !I know what you mean about being so submerged in a health issue that you don't see the others going on,sometimes it is just too much. That is one of the reasons these boards are so helpful - other people can help you brainstorm about your situation. Or, just reading about their situation, causes you to see something related to yours.
It sounds like your phys. therapy pain program is going to be quite intensive.I certainly would think that you should get the x-ray for possible fracture as soon as possible because of the following:compression fractures apparently can happen without the pain that you would expect and people just don't know it or confuse the pain with other pain and discomfort that they usually have;and, before you start on the phys. therapy program I would think the phys. therapist would want to be sure you are not aggravating a condition.Also Desertbloom says if you catch the fracture early something can be done about it. If you put it to your primary care doctor in a certain way , and perhaps in writing, I do not see how they could ignore your request. If you state you are concerned because of the changes in your posture which may be evidence of a compression fracture and that prior to commencing pt that you want to rule out any fracture, I do not see how you could be refused the x-ray.Also such an x-ray would provide a base line for the future and that would be good as well.They do have to practice responsibly and of course they want to avoid malpractice. Maybe if you wrote the letter to the doctor and send or give a copy of the request to the phys. ther. it would get the job done.Then you have two people who should be wanting to act responsibly.
If it is not a fracture which of course we hope it is not, then I would think it must be muscular changes . Of course, I have zero expertise on this .I am sure this is way too simplistic though maybe it would be changes in discs or something.Anyway, the information gleaned from ruling out a fracture could also be of help to the phys. therapist in determining what you can do and what to strengthen. Let us know how it goes.
Something else I thought about from your last message. You said the doctor said your vitamin d was ok. What caught my interest there was your fibromyalgia. I had meant to mention vitamin d to you. Do you know your vitamin d level?? If not you should get it from the doctor. I had low vitamin d and over the past year saw a number of different doctors and can tell you that the general knowledge regarding vit d deficiency is not good. Also the field of vit d research seems to be way beyond the general knowledge out there . A good place to check out information is the Vitamin D Council which is composed of PhD's and MD's who are associated with very promininent institutions- Harvard, Tufts etc. Their conclusion is that vit d deficiency is linked to many conditions and I seem to recall fibromyalgia being one of them.Also they feel that the evidence shows that the risk of various cancers can be significantly decreased with adequate vit d level. Anyway, in my experience , even if you are at the lower level of acceptable vit d 30 ng/ml- that is not deemed adequate with the current research. I believe Vit D council states something more like 50 for optimal health, but please don't take my statement on this and check it out yourself. So, what I am wondering is whether your level is perhaps at the lower level of the range. Also there is a seasonal effect depending where you live and in winter our vit d level can fall unacceptably low for those of us in the northern US. So if your level was checked in summer, by Jan, Feb you can be in a deficiency status, this is what happened to me. I went back and saw that you are in Minn. --for sure your level will drop in winter then. Since there is no vit d metabolism that you can do from the sun in winter your vit d level will drop unless you increase your supplementation so be sure to check out the information . I noticed after I got my vit d level up , and my iron, that I no longer had pains in my legs at night. I had the pains for several years and then just gone with getting the vit d and ferritin level up. Since I did both at the same time I don't know if it was one or both that caused the pain to stop. Did you get your ferritin level checked too? Low ferritin can also cause muscular pain.
Good luck with all this. I won't see the gyn for about 3 weeks, while waiting I will do the research. I found the book you recommended at the library . Thanks again. On the supplements, I have to look at glutamine and creatine and perhaps others. I am going to check with the phys. ther. I went to as well for her thoughts.
It sounds like your phys. therapy pain program is going to be quite intensive.I certainly would think that you should get the x-ray for possible fracture as soon as possible because of the following:compression fractures apparently can happen without the pain that you would expect and people just don't know it or confuse the pain with other pain and discomfort that they usually have;and, before you start on the phys. therapy program I would think the phys. therapist would want to be sure you are not aggravating a condition.Also Desertbloom says if you catch the fracture early something can be done about it. If you put it to your primary care doctor in a certain way , and perhaps in writing, I do not see how they could ignore your request. If you state you are concerned because of the changes in your posture which may be evidence of a compression fracture and that prior to commencing pt that you want to rule out any fracture, I do not see how you could be refused the x-ray.Also such an x-ray would provide a base line for the future and that would be good as well.They do have to practice responsibly and of course they want to avoid malpractice. Maybe if you wrote the letter to the doctor and send or give a copy of the request to the phys. ther. it would get the job done.Then you have two people who should be wanting to act responsibly.
If it is not a fracture which of course we hope it is not, then I would think it must be muscular changes . Of course, I have zero expertise on this .I am sure this is way too simplistic though maybe it would be changes in discs or something.Anyway, the information gleaned from ruling out a fracture could also be of help to the phys. therapist in determining what you can do and what to strengthen. Let us know how it goes.
Something else I thought about from your last message. You said the doctor said your vitamin d was ok. What caught my interest there was your fibromyalgia. I had meant to mention vitamin d to you. Do you know your vitamin d level?? If not you should get it from the doctor. I had low vitamin d and over the past year saw a number of different doctors and can tell you that the general knowledge regarding vit d deficiency is not good. Also the field of vit d research seems to be way beyond the general knowledge out there . A good place to check out information is the Vitamin D Council which is composed of PhD's and MD's who are associated with very promininent institutions- Harvard, Tufts etc. Their conclusion is that vit d deficiency is linked to many conditions and I seem to recall fibromyalgia being one of them.Also they feel that the evidence shows that the risk of various cancers can be significantly decreased with adequate vit d level. Anyway, in my experience , even if you are at the lower level of acceptable vit d 30 ng/ml- that is not deemed adequate with the current research. I believe Vit D council states something more like 50 for optimal health, but please don't take my statement on this and check it out yourself. So, what I am wondering is whether your level is perhaps at the lower level of the range. Also there is a seasonal effect depending where you live and in winter our vit d level can fall unacceptably low for those of us in the northern US. So if your level was checked in summer, by Jan, Feb you can be in a deficiency status, this is what happened to me. I went back and saw that you are in Minn. --for sure your level will drop in winter then. Since there is no vit d metabolism that you can do from the sun in winter your vit d level will drop unless you increase your supplementation so be sure to check out the information . I noticed after I got my vit d level up , and my iron, that I no longer had pains in my legs at night. I had the pains for several years and then just gone with getting the vit d and ferritin level up. Since I did both at the same time I don't know if it was one or both that caused the pain to stop. Did you get your ferritin level checked too? Low ferritin can also cause muscular pain.
Good luck with all this. I won't see the gyn for about 3 weeks, while waiting I will do the research. I found the book you recommended at the library . Thanks again. On the supplements, I have to look at glutamine and creatine and perhaps others. I am going to check with the phys. ther. I went to as well for her thoughts.
Elaine444
11-16-2007, 11:49 PM
Thanks osteoblast for responding again! I will ask my primary doctor next time I see her to get a copy of my vitamin D test results. I have never really been told exactly what they were, just that they were normal. Of course as I am learning "normal" is a relative term. I don't recall ever having ferritin levels checked. In fact I am not even sure what that is. I have had tons of various blood tests over the last few years (mostly to rule out other causes from fibromyalgia) so will check that out as well. Yes, living in Minnesota is hard on the vitamin D levels in winter! I am from Ohio but have lived up here for 14 years, and in the northern part to boot! I was just planning to add a multi vitamin to my regiman (need the added B complex as the hrt I am on as well as surgical menopause can deplete these levels) and the multi has 400 IU of vitamin D so that would bring my total daily intake (excluding fortified foods and drinks) to 1200 IU. I am also going to ask my primary doc about an xray to monitor my spine. Boy, I better start writing this stuff down! lol.
Thanks again for all your help, even if this is your thread! :)
Thanks again for all your help, even if this is your thread! :)
osteoblast
11-17-2007, 04:41 PM
Ferritin is a measure of your iron stores. To my understanding from what my doctor said, she checked the ferritin to determine if it is low as it is the early sign that you are heading to anemia which would later be shown in your cbc (complete blood count- with low hematocrit, and hemoglobin .) In my experience and from what others on the anemia board have said is that it is hard and takes a long time to get your ferritin up. It took me about 3 months to go from 38 to 50.I am still working on getting it higher. For many their low ferritin is not caught until they are low low like 4 -8 and to get it up to a decent number takes so long some working on it longer than a year.So, you might want to get the ferritin tested. Let us know your vit d level when you get it, I hope it is optimally adequate and not just marginally so.
I have a great book called Food & Mood by Elizabeth Somer MA RD second edition. She states that while 5 percent of women are anemic, as many as 80 percent of exercising women and 39 percent of premenopausal women in general are iron deficient. She states that long before onset of anemia, the tissue stores of iron are slowly drained , leaving a person tired and irritable.She goes on to state that concentration and exercise ability is not up to par, work perfromance suffers and immune system is affected, placing a person at higher risk of developing and fighting colds and infections. To me it seems that for anyone who is working on restoring their body to a healthy state , and people who have felt under siege with physical /emotional stresses, it seems such a good idea to check the ferritin and the vit d. I think getting these two better in my situation made alot of difference. I am still working on moving to a healthy state and still dealing with alot of stress, yet there is definite improvement. I hope though that I can somehow get my muscular strength improved- as I said this seems like a losing proposition despite the weight lifting.
I have a great book called Food & Mood by Elizabeth Somer MA RD second edition. She states that while 5 percent of women are anemic, as many as 80 percent of exercising women and 39 percent of premenopausal women in general are iron deficient. She states that long before onset of anemia, the tissue stores of iron are slowly drained , leaving a person tired and irritable.She goes on to state that concentration and exercise ability is not up to par, work perfromance suffers and immune system is affected, placing a person at higher risk of developing and fighting colds and infections. To me it seems that for anyone who is working on restoring their body to a healthy state , and people who have felt under siege with physical /emotional stresses, it seems such a good idea to check the ferritin and the vit d. I think getting these two better in my situation made alot of difference. I am still working on moving to a healthy state and still dealing with alot of stress, yet there is definite improvement. I hope though that I can somehow get my muscular strength improved- as I said this seems like a losing proposition despite the weight lifting.