I know health insurance has been going up, but this is crazy. My husband's comnpany pays $550 per month for complete Blue Cross coverage for the family. The union steward just informed him that it is goimg up to around $1500 per month! Who can afford to pay this? Do'nt these big insurance companies realize that they are going to be pricing themselves right out of business? The way I see it, their main profit comes from companies paying for their employees. When companies can no longer afford to pay, where do they think it is coming from? Maybe out of the newly laid offs pocket? What a joke. Sorry, just wanted to vent.

My husband is also in the Union and we have Blue Cross. I must say, I was better off on Medicaid and medicare when I was disabled and single. our insurance has done NOTHING for us, but cause debt and serious problems. Not to mention the stress it has put on me, has cause me to become ill again. Which in turn causes more bills!!!!! Ahhhhhh! It is a never ending cycle!
Jana

Generally speaking-health insurance cost to employers is determined by usage, if an employers premiums rise dramatically its normally because of high-dollar use.
I was privy to a conversation in the doctors office the other day-where a lady was ranting about what insurance didn't pay. I couldn't help myself, I had to remind her if she had no insurance at all she would be paying the entire cost out of pocket, since we were sitting in a specialists office it probably would have been easily a $200.00 office visit just to walk in the place rather then a $15-20 copay..I was without health insurance for about 60 days and the cost of my husbands prescriptions alone ($340.00 for 2 perscriptions) versus $40.00 with insurance, made me thank my lucky stars I have it whatever the premium.

But... what good is the insurance when you can't afford the premiums? You pay health insurance so you can go to a doctor and stay healthy.

Puggers: I don't mean to sound like I am flaming here but if you don't use the insurance because of fear of the cost rising, what is the use of paying for it to start with? Not everyone is born healthy. Not everyone ages healthy. Some people have no choice but to see doctors, specialists, and take expensive medications.

What annoys the $@#$%@#$ out of me is when someone has paid their premiums for years then one day years down the road they develop cancer or some other terrible fatal disease and the insurance company decides they have made their fortune off this person so they cancel their policy leaving the sick person to pray for the kindness of others or to die a miserable death. This is not right but it happens all the time.

If you think about it rationally, if healthcare was available to everyone, it would not be as expensive as it is now. If people, especially the elderly and the terminally ill, were allowed to get maintenence drugs filled each month without having to choose between medicine and a roof over their heads, the medical costs would go down.

I worked at a large teaching hospital's emergency room as a medical transcriptionist. If I had to put a number to the visits that were solely because of lack of ability to get maintenence medications, I would say it would be about 95%. People don't realize it but there are a lot of unnecessary visits to the ER solely for this reason. You can't fault the person for going. They have no choice.

This is why I think there should be a national health insurance plan. It has worked in other countries. It can work here. And don't give me that "we have the best medical facilities in the world" routine. What good are our great facilties when only a small percentage can get access to them. I would rather take my chances on a less-than-perfect system if more people could get medical access.

Paisley - stepping off my soapbox

The problem w/ having a national ins plan is that it sucks and people from those countries that have it will tell you so. That is why canadians come down to the states, they have to wait 6 mos just to see a specialist. Puggers was right it is based on use but for the most part it's also the high cost being charged for services. If the clinics and dr's offices were better at running there business they wouldn't have to charge hundreds for a 10 office visit. That and their insurance is so flippin' high. I believe 12 states including PA have high malpractice ins rates. If people weren't looking to take a doctor to court for any tiny mistake then their cost's would go down that might reflect what they are billing ins, thus affecting your premiums. I think if the doctors were protected (to a reasonable extent, i'm not saying that they shouldn't be responsible for negligence) and educated in business mgmt or something, then everyone would benefit.

Insurance is somewhat of a gamble. The insurance company is taking your money and gambling that you will not be seriously ill. In other words, for them to make a profit, your premiums must be more than they pay out on you.

On the other hand, if/when you become seriously ill or require surgery, you will be taken care of. The insurance company is still making a profit because most of the folks in the "pool" which would be your husband's employer are making up for it.

The problem you describe is probably due to your husband working for a smallish company or pool of users. One or two people can really raise the premiums if they have extensive medical bills.

Why are premiums so high:

* 40 years ago we did not have $1200 MRIs. They save lives but they are expenive.
* Advanced screening procedures such as mammograms, unheard of a few years ago, are now usually covered as routine services... and they save lives.
* 20 years ago cataract surgery was a big deal. Now it's barely an inconvenience.

People now days will actually go into a doctors office and "demand" a procedure they don't really need, making up symptoms. For instance, most insurance companies will not cover a colonoscopy before age 50 unless you have specific symptoms. A healthy person who wants a screening could pay for the procedure themselves but often fraudently tell the doctor they are having specific symptoms so the insurance will pay.

And doctors aren't always honest either. Medicare loses millions each year due to fraudulent claims. They are fighting back with a vengeance now.

I know this doesn't make you feel better, but it helps to know some facts. I don't think your premiums were raised for the hect of it.

But since they are so high, you would be better off getting an individual plan. However, you will be required to go through medical underwriting (they can do this because you have an employer sponsered plan and are refusing it) and your premiums will be based on your health history and usage.

Good Luck

If you do decide to look for independent coverage, there are a few things to remember. 1. Don't cancel existing coverage until you have the new coverage in writing. 2. Ask around with several brokers and have them do some prechecking for you before you actually apply. If you get denied by one insurance company or even would be charged a higher premium than the base premium, you have to indicate that on any subsequent applications which will raise major red flags. 3. Blue Cross is really bad. My husband is on one prescription that costs $60/month and he's considered by Blue Cross to be uninsurable because of the meds. (Yet, he has the heart function and cholestrol levels of a teenage girl and he's 50). I have also read in our local paper of a perfectly healthy woman who applied with Blue Cross and she never went to the dr for more than the yearly exams, but because her height to weight ratio wasn't optimum, Blue Cross considered her uninsurable. Just my 2cents worth.

Good Luck !

[This message has been edited by cathy2752 (edited 05-09-2003).]

I worked as a Health Claims Analyst for 15 years. I was also a Union member. We had good insurance but the premiums were a killer. Enough for a heart attack anyway. I have sat on both sides of the fence, in my job I tried to get benefits paid for people when they were excluded by their policies. I was always in my bosses face, fighting to get something covered. Usually I won. Now I am disabled and when this happens and you are on Social Security Disability you only have Medicare, with no Prescription coverage. I too feel the need having seen both points of view, to hope that we will go to a national scheme where we pay say $30 monthly and everything is covered. The hospitals make about 300% profit anyway. This would be good for We The People and We The Facilities and Doctors to break even.


[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 04-30-2003).]

Health care should NOT be run for profit. Doctors, hospitals, and drug companies are entitled to a fair return on labor but why give a large share of medical costs to investors (in the USA)...what do THEY add to our health. It's not like they are building hospitals, or inventing the next generation of MRI, rather just skimming profits like the MAFIA does but more honestly!

Drugs, doctors and hospitals should get a return but this fair return should be a regulated return...MONOPOLISTIC practices are detrimental to a free society, and Health Care at a reasonable cost should be available to ALL!

I know several Canadians who live in the USA and would CRAWL back to Canada if they became ill- I know several people who've been here MANY years who get back to GREECE for care. Other than media hype, I've never known an ACTUAL instance of a Canadian coming South for any type of medical care.

Many Canadians on these boards will tell you EXACTLY what the think of the bizarre USA system of Health "Insurance."

As far as our demanding more care now than 40 years ago- we actually get far less.
Forty years ago, with a heart attack you spent 4-6 weeks in a hospital. If you had a bad back you were often hospitalized for a WEEK for "observation" and then put in traction for SEVERAL weeks. Now you'd be lucky to spend an hour in the ER with a mangled back, and it won't be too long til a heart attack will be discharged after an outpatient stenting procedure!

[This message has been edited by zip2play (edited 05-06-2003).]

HI Guy's

I am a Canadian and use the system alot. I have doctor appointment once a week and hospital stays at least 2 times a month and have medications that are expensive here. If it wern't for our health care system, I would be millions and millions of dollars in debt. I would love to visit the USA but with my medical problems I would be in the poor house after 2 day's.
Just wanted to add my little bit
Kierra

I know Canadians too who do NOT complain at all about their system. The only thing we have on them is the fact that some of us can get dental coverage from our employers. It is a fallacy that they have to wait 6 months to see a doctor or a specialist. So many Americans are living in this fantasy, believing that we are truly the best of the best,superior to all other nations in every shape and form. Then there are others who just believe we are 'mostly' superior. Well, I will tell you I'm a young red-blooded American who loves her country more than anything, but I have also lived elsewhere. Spain, to be exact. And while it is said that the US has the best medical facilities/specialists/medical technology available, in the western world, and even in comparison to some 3rd world countries...we have less access per capita to that wonderful health care than they do. What's wrong with this picture? Decide for yourself. But I personally have worked at an insurance company, see the fraud and corruption that happens daily, watch as claims go denied automatically...come on! And preventive medicine? In the US? Unless you are rich, that is a joke. Most HMOs and PPOs won't pay for it. You don't prevent health matters, you treat them after they arise. And usually it's after a 10 min session with a doctor who looks in your ears and your throat, hits a mallet on your knee, and says you'll be fine in no time. Maybe it's all in your head. If you're lucky you get a prescription for codeine or antibiotics...and then you are off to leave and suffer needlessly. I know people in medical school. Do you want to know what the majority of their classes focus on? Medications and everything there is to do with them. How and when to prescribe somthing. It's all post-care crap.

I'm sorry, I'm so mad. I'm so sick of this horrible system we have. Yes I'm grateful I at least have an HMO. I am far more blessed than most people. I know what it's like not to have insurance. I know what it's like to think, right after an accident, not if I'm ok or if everyone is ok, but rather...do I have insurance that will cover this? If not, I can't go to the hospital and get checked! I had to argue with an EMT and lie by saying I was fine because I turned 25 three days earlier and was no longer allowed on my mother's insurance, even though I was a student! I should have gone to the hospital. But my own health and my own life came second, because what would be the point if I couldn't afford it.

I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but I'm really passionate about this topic. It just infuriates me that so many people suffer and/or die needlessly simply because they don't have coverage. And while I believe in personal and social responsibility, I also believe that a country, especially one as wonderful as ours, should have health care for all. I'd gladly pay more taxes for it, and to even help those who are unemployed.

Dulce, I know how this topic makes your blood boil, that is basically why I started this thread months ago. My husband had a slight heart attack three weeks ago, and has also been diagnosed as diabetic. His company is known to layoff all the time. He has been with them for twenty years. As soon as he is laid of, the insurance ends at the end of the month. The cost thru COBRA to keep it is astronomical. (COBRA is another joke!) That is what I worry about now, him getting laid off, and trying to come up with the $700 per month it would cost to keep the insurance. My husband has worked 2 jobs the past 2 plus years and paid his taxes. In the meantime we have refugees down in Guantonomo Bay getting free healthcare, and as soon as something happens to an AMERICAN TAXPAYING CITIZEN,our insurance is dropped! I know that we are not the only people that this is has happened to, but it sure is sad that when you live in this wonderful country, the richest on the earth, that you should have to worry about it!

MyohMy, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yet it's so common and it's absolutely disgusting, I agree. The richest country in the world, one whose constitution was formed by and FOR the citizens (for many many reasons), to protect us and sustain us, our lives and our quality of life. I mean, I'm all for helping out others, helping out other countries in need, fighting terrorism, AIDS, etc but the emphasis should first start at home.

Take for instance obesity. It's one of the largest and rapidly growing problem in the U.S. All of our health experts cite how it's on the rise, and how we have to DO something about it. But yet medical experts have proved already, a long time ago, that for the most part, that obesity is overwhelmingly genetic. You can't put the entire blame on the person, or dismiss them as lazy with bad exercise and eating habits. Half the time those bad habits form because of their obesity, not the opposite way around. YET because of "big business" do you think, even if a cure was found for obesity, that they would ever allow any US citizen to use it without spending an outrageous amount of money? The weight-loss market is a multi-billion dollar business. No one is going to allow a cure to happen anytime soon. (I personally believe they are closer to one they they lead us to believe, but the market is prohibiting them from acting on it).

So the question is: Is the US about its citizens and their quality of life, or is it about its RICH citizens, is it about corporations, tax loops, and big business? ARGH I'm so sick of it. I think our founding fathers would be greatly disappointed in what has become of their inspired creation.

And you're right, COBRA is a joke. I do wish you and your husband well and I hope something works out for you. I don't know what, but hopefully something. Good luck.

Insurance is a touchy subject for most everyone that has it. I hate having to have it, but our society has made it a necessity.

What I came to this forum to find out which insurance companies (besides BC/BS) are good companies to be with. I have always been covered with Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Texas. First on my parent's policy, then with my own policy when I turned 19. I'm now 42 years of age.

I had my children covered with Texas CHIPS until I went back to work. Then, our household income was too high and they were dropped from CHIPS April 1, 2003. It cost too much to add them to my existing policy, so I applied for a policy that would cover not only my kids and myself, but my husband as well. BC/BS sent me the new cards and policy and a letter stating that they excluded me on the new policy because of height/weight. I tried arguing with them, that they have covered me since the day I was born, but to no avail. Now I'm stuck with 2 policies, one for me alone and one for the hubby and kids. We work for a small company that can't afford to offer insurance to the employees. I have searched the internet, but all the insurance companies seem the same.

My question is this: What insurance company would you recommend to your friends and family?

I was thinking about changing my families health insurance to Bluecross Blueshield of NC. Here I read some negitive comments about the company. Can anyone go into a little bit of detail and explain why they are unhappy with Bluecross.

Thanks, Ed.

Originally posted by dulce75:
And you're right, COBRA is a joke.

I disagree. COBRA is a good thing.

Employer's use to just end coverage when an employee stopped working there. Because of COBRA, that employee can keep coverage without having to worry about finding coverage elsewhere.

Yes, it's expensive. But you know what? For the same coverage, on an individual policy, it's a lot cheaper (well, depending on the employer I suppose) because you're paying 102% of the group rate, which is less than the individual rate for the same type of plan. Besides, someone has to pay for it.

I wouldn't expect a company I work for anymore to pay any of my healthcare costs. The fact is, it's guaranteed coverage for 18-36 months if you can afford it, and prevents you from having to worry about finding an insurance company that will accept you.

If the government could provide something cheaper for those that just lost health coverage and don't have a job, that'd be better of course. COBRA in itself, though, is not a bad deal.

[This message has been edited by iChrisi (edited 07-04-2003).]

Here is my story

I am self employed and have been for 10 years. I have ms but have been in remission for 20 years. I was insuring my family(wife ,son and myself) at the cost of $800. every 2 months about 5 years ago thru blue cross. I am 53 now and when I turned 50 my insurance went from $800. to $1200. per 2 months. My small company can not afford that so I had to drop myself to keep my family insured. for the last two years my wife and son have been insured thru blue cross still and it cost me $397. per month and I finally tried and did get on Vetrans benefits. my family's insurance just renewed in July and blue cross now wants $478. per month and in another year or two my wife will turn 50 and it will jump again. I am currently looking into insuring thru NASE does anyone have any experience with them the payments with a similar plan for my family are about $325 per month.

HI..I am a health insurance agent for small group. 2-99 employees ina business.
How companies get rated for premiums are the average age. the older the employees average age the higher the premiums.

I read the entire thread and I just have a hard time with so many complaints about what is provided and what one expects others to hand over for free, or at the next guy's expense.

My dad owned an insurance company, and believed in it, and so do I. Funny thing, he also was a reformed gambler. He explained to me that insurance is a gamble and that each person takes a risk. When the risk excedes the profitability, someone has to back out. That can be the insurer or the insured.

Insureds have the right to not pay for insurance, save and invest their own money, and therefore hopefully be able to cover their own health care. Insurers have the right to not insure, or to stop insuring, when doing so is not profitable.

The money to back up insurance comes from some where. Who do you think pays? Someone does.

Usually it is the "middle class" folks shouldering the heaviest tax burden and paying the heaviest premiums, while the lower and upper (and younger and older) practically get off scott free.

I was in a serious accident when young, leaving me with significant disabilities. I had no insurance at that time, since my father had died, so my mother and a Children's Hospital charity paid for my care. My mother paid her part in payments that took many years to pay, but she paid every cent, bless her.

Later on I was on state medical assistence. Most of my medical needs were not met, because they did not cover everything, and I was not able to pay. Yep, I could have died. I suffered at times. But I never once thought life owed me anything else. I was not angry that no one else paid.

I eventually got insured through my spouse's employer.
I still suffered. I still almost died a few times, and doctors or medicines did not keep me alive. I just survived in spite of everything.

Sickness and death exist. Hospitals and meds are not cures, most of the time. Some day I will be sick and die...medicine may or may not be available to prolong my life. So what? It will be sad to some, but we all have a time to go. It is OK with me, I accept this about life.

Sometimes we can afford insurance, sometimes we can't.
But no one else should have to pay to sustain my life just because I did not plan my life better or because I have unfortunate circumstances. No one is obligated to meet our needs and desires...I think people need to get a grip on this reality.

We don't have the right to complain or gripe about what we don't have, or to demand that others give to us. But we do have the right to work hard, get smarter, change jobs, move, and earn, if circumstances allow it.

I am all for charities, and many exist, and I give to some of them. But no one is right to demand that I give, or to take what I earned to give it to another, and I resent the notion that government (we the people) owe anything to you.

It is a socialist society that robs one to give to another, and I am pretty sick of being robbed...I am not even one of the middle class and I am robbed of what I earn! I resent that!


[This message has been edited by mickimac (edited 08-26-2003).]

I recently gave up my health insurance.
Why?
I have three pre-existing conditions (reflux disease, peripheral neuropathy, and epilepsy) and was buying my insurance privately because my husband is retired and because his company did not offer insurance for retirees. The insurance companies don't want to sell policies to those of us with health problems, but they must because of the Portability Act of '96'.
The thing about the Portability Act is that it doesn't put a limit on what the insurance companies can charge for this insurance.

I originally got a policy through Blue Cross for which I had to pay $800/month (just for me; husband has his own policy). They raised it to $1050 within a year. I then changed companies and got another policy for which I paid a bargain price of $650/month. A year later, they raised my monthly bill to $1050. I don't see the doctor more often than a healthy person; I wasn't in the hospital; the main cost to the health insurer was my medicine which runs about $150 a month.

The insurance companies say it is not the individual policy holder that causes the cost of an individual policy to rise, but rather the class you are in. I suppose this means that the other people in my class, those with pre-existing conditions, cost my insurance company enough to raise my bill 60%.

I still have nine more years until I'm old enough for Medicare. I am not able to hold a job. I figure that even if the cost of my insurance didn't go up, I would have paid over $130,000 by the time I'm old enough for Medicare. AND you know it will go up over the next nine years. Therefore, I cancelled my policy and now only have a supplement policy from AARP. I will buy my medicine from Canada from now on.

I just refuse to support the ever increasing charges that I've been forced to pay in order to have health insurance. I'm too well off for Medicaid and not rich enough to find a $1050/month insurance fee to be easily affordable.

If our country ever had a plan like Canada offers to it's people, I'd jump for joy and be the first in line to sign up for it.


[This message has been edited by lakelady (edited 09-01-2003).]

What I don't understand is why health insurance is tied into companies anyway? Whenever you have two corporations working with each other - kickbacks, under the table, special deals, and mismanagement of funds always occur for the few in charge and not for the masses.

I think it should be handled more like auto/homeowners insurance. Which I'm sure will set off a whole 'nother slew of complaints - but comparitively, the prices are more reasonable and are kept competitive to deal with the general public. I'm not for a government run health system, especially by the US gov - so it's a compromise.

(I will mention that I've been insured by USAA since I was 17 and know that I'm lucky to be able to do business with that company. They've always treated me fairly and respectably.)

Just something to think about, how to change it - is an entirely different thread.

Yes, there must be a better way !!! I currently pay a monthly premium for a minor child that is equivalent to 30% of my monthly Federal Tax... That is for 1 child that never goes to the clinic... The rest of us have policies through present or past employers... Even at the huge price for the child's policy, her co-pays increased 50% this year...

Does it make any sense at all ?

I agree that there needs to be a serious outrage in this country - enough to motivate ACTION !!!

As per earlier submissions - we are paying through the nose for very limited access - basically again being fleeced by the "rich" so that they might better benefit from procedures and services the average person cannot dream of affording or having access to...

Some sort of political movement needs to take place...

In medical access, we have become the laughing stock of the developed world !!!

------------------
Ex-Pharmaceutical Guinea Pig...

my premius are near $1000 per month and going up!

Our insurance premiums are $1088. a month and going up!
We are self-employed, and business has been terrible the last 6 months.If this keeps up we will be unable to continue our coverage, and we both have medical issues.
So believe me I can relate to these problems!

Originally posted by puggers:
Generally speaking-health insurance cost to employers is determined by usage, if an employers premiums rise dramatically its normally because of high-dollar use.
I was privy to a conversation in the doctors office the other day-where a lady was ranting about what insurance didn't pay. I couldn't help myself, I had to remind her if she had no insurance at all she would be paying the entire cost out of pocket, since we were sitting in a specialists office it probably would have been easily a $200.00 office visit just to walk in the place rather then a $15-20 copay..I was without health insurance for about 60 days and the cost of my husbands prescriptions alone ($340.00 for 2 perscriptions) versus $40.00 with insurance, made me thank my lucky stars I have it whatever the premium.

Of course, the $15-20 copay assumes that the insurance is either a PPO or an HMO plan. If, however, the insurance is an indemnity plan, then the specialist's office visit, whether $78.00 or $200.00, is paid in full by the patient until the deductible has been satisfied. A low deductible under an indemnity plan is $300.00 and the monthly premiums are the most expensive in the industry. The plan is most beneficial for major medical cost during the year--not for the yearly office visit to the cardiologist, even with an ekg performed.

Mickimac well said!!I agree 100%!

Imagine if the government was in charge of our healthcare, what would happen to those of us that needed to see a specialist but the government deemed it wasn't "necessary", HOW WOULD YOU EVER GET AROUND IT? Who do you complain too, the better business bureau? Let's say there was a greivence system, how long would that take 6 months, a year? Then what happens when your health turns for the worse due to this? Look at how it is to go to DMV's,almost everyone there is nasty and slooooooooow! Have any of you ever been in the military? It was hurry up and wait, that is how gov't healthcare would be.

I do not want to pay for everyones healthcare, why should I. Like mickimac said, there are charities out there that can help defray costs, how about some personal responsibility. I pay alot of money for a PPO, and I have had alot of expenses that weren't covered, but I am not going to complain becuase if I didn't have a PPO I still would not be diagnosed with a thyroid problem because my labs were "normal". So in the government system I would surely have gone undiagnosed, which would have caused me even more complicated and serious medical problems.

I think everyone should stop putting thier hands out for a hand-out from the government (the taxpayers)and put thier hands in thier pockets and pay for thier own excess medical costs. If your not happy with health insurance you can choose to not buy it and save up for your medical expenses.

Socialism isn't going to solve anything. How many people will want to become a doctor if they will get paid the same as a garbage man or a salesclerk? Capitalism is what made America great, if I choose to make alot of money and someone else wants to be poor then that is a choice, why should I have to pay for thier healthcare? I won't! It is not my job in life to have to support the unambitious through my achievements.

[This message has been edited by girlygirly (edited 10-29-2003).]

Originally posted by girlygirly:
Mickimac well said!!I agree 100%!

Imagine if the government was in charge of our healthcare, what would happen to those of us that needed to see a specialist but the government deemed it wasn't "necessary", HOW WOULD YOU EVER GET AROUND IT? Who do you complain too, the better business bureau? Let's say there was a greivence system, how long would that take 6 months, a year? Then what happens when your health turns for the worse due to this? Look at how it is to go to DMV's,almost everyone there is nasty and slooooooooow! Have any of you ever been in the military? It was hurry up and wait, that is how gov't healthcare would be.

I do not want to pay for everyones healthcare, why should I. Like mickimac said, there are charities out there that can help defray costs, how about some personal responsibility. I pay alot of money for a PPO, and I have had alot of expenses that weren't covered, but I am not going to complain becuase if I didn't have a PPO I still would not be diagnosed with a thyroid problem because my labs were "normal". So in the government system I would surely have gone undiagnosed, which would have caused me even more complicated and serious medical problems.

I think everyone should stop putting thier hands out for a hand-out from the government (the taxpayers)and put thier hands in thier pockets and pay for thier own excess medical costs. If your not happy with health insurance you can choose to not buy it and save up for your medical expenses.

Socialism isn't going to solve anything. How many people will want to become a doctor if they will get paid the same as a garbage man or a salesclerk? Capitalism is what made America great, if I choose to make alot of money and someone else wants to be poor then that is a choice, why should I have to pay for thier healthcare? I won't! It is not my job in life to have to support the unambitious through my achievements.

[This message has been edited by girlygirly (edited 10-29-2003).]

What! I'm having a difficult time following your logic. You say "what if the government was in charge of our health care," you mean like Medicare because Medicare is a government program. Then you ask "what would happen to those of us that needed to see a specialist?" People on Medicare generally do need to see a specialist because to be on Medicare one is either (a) over 65 years of age or (b) receiving disability benefits. And guess what, they go and see a specialist. They even receive an accurate diagnosis--including thyroid disease.

Then you say " but the government deemed it wasn't "necessary", HOW WOULD YOU EVER GET AROUND IT?" What makes you think that the government would deem it unnecessary and what makes you think that if one is not on a governmental program that it wouldn't be deemed unnecessary? I'm unaware that prior approval to see a specialist is necessary under the Medicare program. I am, however, aware that HMO plans often require prior approval in the form of approval by the PCP before seeing a specialist. You appear to have the government's program confused with HMO plans wherein prior approval is needed and seeing a specialist is routinely denied and sometimes the patient does get worse and sometimes even dies while awaiting the appeals process . So not having a governmental plan sure doesn't make for seeing a specialist or having that specialist's fees approved.

How is personal responsibility and relying upon charities logically related? Charities are handouts which is what you opposed. In fact, many of the charities receive both state and federal taxpayers funds--i.e. governmental handouts! So is it just the packaging that disturbs you? If taxpayer money is packaged under the generic label of a charity, it is alright to receive a handout of taxpayer money but if the handout is packaged under the label of " U.S. government," then it is offensive.

And explain the logic behind "because if I didn't have a PPO I still would not be diagnosed with a thyroid problem because my labs were 'normal'". So paying cash, or having an indemnity plan, an HMO plan, Medicare or Medicaid or CHIPS would not have resulted in a diagnosis! Poppycock!

People choose to be poor? Well, Marie Antoinette you should explain that if they choose to be rich instead and then decide that don't like being rich that they can always give away their fortune and be poor. And you think that if there is national health care reform that doctors will be paid "the same as a garbage man or a salesclerk?" (Ah gee. ell me that you are very young!) Based upon the 2001 Occupational Employment Statistics Survey conducted by the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the top seven highest-paying professions in the US are all medical doctors. Therefore it would appear that there is considerable wiggle room between the top seven highest paid salaries and the lowest paid salary of that of an unskilled laborer.

Post such as yours are entertaining if nothing else!

:eek: It's funny to see what I posted causing such a reaction!!!!

BTW, Socialism is when everyone makes the same, the playing field is leveled, so doctors and garbage men would make the same. If someone likes socialism then they should move to Europe.

Yes, I would not have been diagnosed through a government run healthcare.I only was through my PPO because I was insistent that I had a thyroid problem even through my bloodwork came normal. My doctor ordered an ultrsound to shut me up and a nodule was found as well as a goiter.I was in the Air Force so I know how a government health care system works. I never saw a doctor I always got a PA and that over 15 years ago (so there goes the theory about my being "young").My thryoid numbers then were high normal and they did not persue anything else or even ask me about any symptoms. If you ever read up on Hillarycare you would know what I am taking about as far as getting referrels and not getting the proper care you need. I am well informed as to how HMO's work (I was a member of one), and I do know how medicare and medicare work (not from experience but from knowing people who use these systems.) People on medicare do not always get the testing they require because the government doesn't deem it necessary. I have a close friend with fibromyalgia who can not get all of the necessary care with medicare.

I hope this clears up any confusion about my previous post.

People are responsible for their financial situation, it is a CHOICE to be poor. I choose not to be poor, I have worked hard all of my life so that I could have a comfortable lifestyle. It is NOT my problem if someone else has made bad decisions in their life.

I mentioned the charity because the other poster said that it helped pay part of her mom's expenses. I do believe in charities because the people who donated did it by choice not because the government thought they were too successful and they needed to pay more. I believe in handouts when the money being given is by choice (not by taxpayers). Choice is the operative word here, just like it is in choosing to be poor.

It seems like everyone is complaining about health insurance being so expensive but nobody is saying why it is so expensive. It is simply because healthcare is expensive. Everyobdy wants to be able to go to doctors and hospitals and not pay anything. Just let the insurance company pay for it. The only way an insurance company can stay in business is to charge enough in premiums to recoup all the claims they have to pay out and cover all of their overhead costs. What's driving health insurance premiums up are increasing health care costs. What's driving health care costs are people, us, getting sick too often and needing too much health care. The health care industry is not any more evil than all the other industries we all work in. When we, as a nation, eat more and more junk and packaged foods, drink soda instead of water, eat supersized junk food meal and drinks and then we get overweight and come down with more and more diseases and we then become couch potatoes,smoke and abuse alcohol, shouldn't we blame ourselves first for the high cost of health care and insurance before we blame the insurance companies? What happens to auto insurance premiums when the number and cost of all the claims combined go up because people have more accidents or because or theft? They go up! The same with health insurance premiums. Just look at what you and everybody else puts in their grocery shopping cart, you will be shocked. All kinds of junk food and sugary drinks. There is the origin of the health care and insurance crisis. We caused it, all of us, and blaming the insurance companies is not going to fix it. Even if there was a way to get all of medical claims paid, we will still be a sick a nation and in need of all kinkd of drug, surgeries, and medications. All because of our diet and lifestyle. So, stop blaming the insurance companies. The real problem is all of us.

We are self employed and that means that we supply our own insurance. There is not much out there for people like us and everytime you change companies you start over with the pre-existing conditions even with no laps in coverage. We don't have the same benefit of going from company to company with the same coverage. There is always a two year waiting period for the pre-existing condition and when that two year period is up the premium is also up. We purchased Blue Cross Blue Shield of Texas 3 1/2 yrs. ago at $330.00 a month and last month it went to $980.00 a month with $1000.00 deductable and $1500.00 limit on medications per with a $200.00 deductable on meds. Had to say good by to insurance period........can't afford any longer. We would get an increase every 3 to 6 months. I use to hate to see the Blue Cross shield on an envelope in the mail pile because we knew what it meant.

Texas for some reason is terrible on all types of insurance. I checked out prices of Blue Cross in Colorado for the same coverage and it was less than half the monthly premium. I wonder why........ We concidered doing just major medical only but out of 22 companies that use to be in Texas there are about 8 left.

If you have insurance with a company that you work for I would keep it because individual insurance is NOT FAIR to it's customers. We really get raked over the coals.

I know what you mean. I am lucky. I work for a company that pays for my whole premium. 3 years ago I didn't think I could afford a PPO so I went on the HMO. The next year co-workers talked me into the PPO. It was fine the first year. There was no deductible. Last year my company went to a $250 deductible. This year they went up to $500. We also have BCBS. I don't know if I can afford it but I like the idea of picking my own doctors even specialists instead of having to have a referral for every doctor I need to go to. Good luck on finding insurance. I live in Texas and I know insurance is tuff here. :yawn:

The problem w/ having a national ins plan is that it sucks and people from those countries that have it will tell you so. That is why canadians come down to the states, they have to wait 6 mos just to see a specialist. Puggers was right it is based on use but for the most part it's also the high cost being charged for services. If the clinics and dr's offices were better at running there business they wouldn't have to charge hundreds for a 10 office visit. That and their insurance is so flippin' high. I believe 12 states including PA have high malpractice ins rates. If people weren't looking to take a doctor to court for any tiny mistake then their cost's would go down that might reflect what they are billing ins, thus affecting your premiums. I think if the doctors were protected (to a reasonable extent, i'm not saying that they shouldn't be responsible for negligence) and educated in business mgmt or something, then everyone would benefit.

no we don't ... perhaps two months if it's not an emergency, but we can always see someone in an emergency ... i wouldn't be in your shoes for anything -- do you realize that the american health system is the most expensive in the world, only covers 60% of the people? i could say more, but it would be rude and not appropriate ... our health system isn't the best in the world either, but i wouldn't vote for anyone who advocated an HMO system, which is the most expensive and inefficient system in the world, and what happens when you have MS (as another poster on this board does)? you get cut off!!... i'd go to france, where they[/b] have the best system in the world ...

how many people do you know who've had to go to the states to get proper care? this is received wisdom, and a myth ...

now [i]i'm climbing down off my soapbox ...
jb

Hi jinglebts,
I have read that some things are denied by Canadian social medicine, such as Armour thyroid, and that people can't get past the predetermined protocols. I have read the same of people in England.

There are pros and cons on everything.

I would be in hypothyroid coma or dead, by now, if I were dependent on the Canadian medical system, from what I have read on the Thyroid Board, because my TSH did not show that I was so ill. The American HMO system did not help either.

I now have an expensive PPO, and mostly pay out of pocket, since the deductable hardly is met in a year.

I don't resent it at all, though. I have had no insurance with big bills, and have also had insurance. Insurance is not like air that we simply have a right to. Insurance is a business, but some people think of it as a charity. It never was. We don't even have rights to charity, regardless of our needs! Good grief, lets see how far anyone gets going to neighbors and demanding that they take care of them. No one has a right to what someone else worked for. One may ask for it, but they don't have the right to take or steal it.

Fact is, people rely on doctors rather than common sense too much, and many are way too over medicated. I just read an article that more people die in America from MEDICINE than any other cause.

Instead of eating right, and exercising, working through our problems, gaining good coping skills, learning to relax, getting enough sleep, being disciplined, etc., we depend on pills that usually are poisons and doctors who are mere human beings. I agree with merimac and grlygrl to a great degree. If a company can afford to keep costs low, fine, and if an individual can afford insurance, well & good. But no one owes it to someone else.

Forced robbery for social services makes human compassion obsolete. And, did you ever notice that those that do the robbing (determining what taxes we peons have to pay) live high on the hog at our expense? They retain their full salaries and insurance when they retire, and they don't use Social Security or medicare!

Those at the top in every state is where the true problem is!

I would be in hypothyroid coma or dead, by now, if I were dependent on the Canadian medical system, from what I have read on the Thyroid Board, because my TSH did not show that I was so ill. The American HMO system did not help either.


you most CERTAINLY would not ... last march, the guidelines for TSH were .5 to 5.0, and i was DX'd at 3.9 ... i'm on a regimen of synthroid/cytomel that suits me, and at least one doctor whom i could have seen would prescribe dessicated thyroid if i'd needed it (and i'm not sure i don't ... i have an appt with her in late december should the situation warrant) ... my GP and my endo are great; my last TSH was 1.1, and he bumped me up to 125mcg, plus 10mcg cytomel, when DX'd i was treated IMMEDIATELY -- i had a neuro appt in march, crawled in saying i'd just had a blood test, my TSH was 3.9, and my neuro called an endo and gave me a prescription THERE AND THEN.

also, my neuro says that, because of the pecularities of my "stroke", i'd had a better work-up there than in the US -- i ws tested from one end to the other and back again, even went to the almighty mayo (on ohip's nickle), mayo said "it's just a stroke" -- but we both (my neuro and i know it isn't) and he's still searching ...

don't generalize, tree frog, esp. when you haven't been in canada ...

it's all propaganda, this so-called "socialized medicine" gig, and i've read of far too many american citizens who don't have insurance, or who have insurance at their current job but can't move without leaving the job-related insurance, or whose insurance has been cut off because guess what? they get sick too often!!

i couldn't disagree with you more; i think access to a good health system is a right, not a privilege.

Hi jinglebts,
What I said is everything has its pros and cons. There are benefits to socialized medicine, as well as privitized medicine.

As for your thyroid treatment, you just so happened to get a great doc...I didn't, and what I refer to is not only mine, but many experiences I have read of people that do live in Canada and England. I don't have to live there to believe them.

> TSH .5 to 5.0 lab results is mostly deemed by doctors to be "normal" thyroid levels, not abnormal. Below .5 is usually deemed to be hyperthyroid and will usually not be treated as possiblty hypothyroid at all. Yet MY level needs to be kept below .5 or I am very ill.

Read my story on the Thyroid Board. I was not DXed with my TSH around 2, even though I was disabled with hypothyroid symptoms, and many of us simply are not DXed, exactly due to the "guidelines". Through internet help I finally found a doc that ignores the protocol, and goes by symtoms. But even this doctor had to dance around the insurance company. My latest great doc will not accept HMO's due to their "protocols" for treatment that prevented her from providing accurate treatments. In fact, the local hospital and all of the doctors in my area have stopped accepting HMO's for this reason.

Again, you happened to get a great doc. Good for you! Really! But that is not the usual experience.

I am glad for you that you are personally getting wonderful care, but other people are put into a slot they simply don't
fit in, are told their problem does not exist, that it is in their heads, and/or are referred to psychiatists, when they do indeed have a physical illness. This is so common with females and hormonal issues, which thyroid is, that it is disgusting.

I see it all of the time even with the insurance system in America, and read about it from people in other countries
with socialized medicine. So I can't accept that either one is all that.

If we are free to use our own resources and not have them controlled by a big brother, we can pay our own way, and have some left to help our neighbor. (And when we do, the neighbor can know he or she is cared about...knowing someone cares is sorely lacking in this world, and I think it is directly because of forced taxation, and the impersonal social welfare system that makes us think it someone else's job to take care of the poor.)

i'm not going to debate this issue with you, but i don't think your argument makes sense .. look around you, for goodness' sake ...

let's end this, by agreeing to disagree ...

jb

I agree with tree frog!!!!Charity starts at home (and lets remember that charity should never be forced upon you because then it becomes something else...pillaging? ). :wave: BTW I think you make perfect sense!

yup, and each man for himself ...

jb

Hi everyone,
We can talk about this issue until we are blue in the face. It will never change. Never. Are health system is making alot of bad and powerful people very, very wealthy. There are so many people getting in on this corruption. How can they get away with it? The rich run the country, hell they run the world and I dont see it ever effecting them. The only things that change are those that effect the rich.

You know this issue is close to what started Che Guevarra on his career as revolutionary . . . he was actually a medical doctor in South America, from a middle class family, he could have had a comfortable life "choosing" to be financially affluent while he watched people die because they were impoverished (NEWSFLASH! the poor generally don't choose to be poor, we don't choose our parents or our upbringing and by age 18 or 21 things are pretty much finished for many of us . . .) -- he saw medical problems that could have easily been prevented by relatively inexpensive drugs and he DECIDED TO CHANGE THE WORLD, which he did . . .

No, I don't want to live in communist Cuba, I believe that as Americans we have a democratic right to decide that health care is to be provided to everyone -- I am for nationalized healthcare and my personal situation is not even so bad . . .YET ($105 before tax and $30 after tax per month to insure self, husband (both aged 41), and 2 kids; kids qualify for PA CHIP; husband has no dental/eye/scrip but is looking into a policy for those that is only about $20 a month.)

You know this issue is close to what started Che Guevarra on his career as revolutionary . . . he was actually a medical doctor in South America, from a middle class family, he could have had a comfortable life "choosing" to be financially affluent while he watched people die because they were impoverished (NEWSFLASH! the poor generally don't choose to be poor, we don't choose our parents or our upbringing and by age 18 or 21 things are pretty much finished for many of us . . .) -- he saw medical problems that could have easily been prevented by relatively inexpensive drugs and he DECIDED TO CHANGE THE WORLD, which he did . . .

No, I don't want to live in communist Cuba, I believe that as Americans we have a democratic right to decide that health care is to be provided to everyone -- I am for nationalized healthcare and my personal situation is not even so bad . . .YET ($105 before tax and $30 after tax per month to insure self, husband (both aged 41), and 2 kids; kids qualify for PA CHIP; husband has no dental/eye/scrip but is looking into a policy for those that is only about $20 a month.)

I make $14.00 an hour as a 15 years exp. electrician. If I could afford insurance it would cost me and wife $89.00 a WEEK. No dental, no prescription, no kids and a $2,000 ded. And this is the best deal my company could find. Why is it so high? Is it because I am in construction, maybe it is because our company only has 20 people. I live in S Carolina, we had a governer(carol campbell) several years back that as soon as he left office he got into the insurance business. Why? I guess judges and lawyers don't pay well enough.

Bothrops, Is that $89 before or after tax? And by "no kids" do you mean that you have no kids, or that you do but the insurance won't include them? The latter would be outrageous.

For family insurance at my job (which includes married couple with no kids), it is about $300 a month before tax, $600 deductible, and does not include eye/dental, but we can buy that for about $20 a month before tax. Still it's all too expensive for me (I'm about $14 an hour too when you , that's why my kids are on CHIP not my company plan. Maybe S Carolina has adult low cost state insurance, that's what my husband gets 'cause he's self-employed. You and your wife would pay $60 a month after tax if you got the PA adult low cost insurance. Again no eye or dental and I don't think scrip either. I've noticed one good thing, generic drugs are pretty cheap.

I know several Canadians who live in the USA and would CRAWL back to Canada if they became ill- I know several people who've been here MANY years who get back to GREECE for care. Other than media hype, I've never known an ACTUAL instance of a Canadian coming South for any type of medical care.

Many Canadians on these boards will tell you EXACTLY what the think of the bizarre USA system of Health "Insurance."

As far as our demanding more care now than 40 years ago- we actually get far less.
Forty years ago, with a heart attack you spent 4-6 weeks in a hospital. If you had a bad back you were often hospitalized for a WEEK for "observation" and then put in traction for SEVERAL weeks. Now you'd be lucky to spend an hour in the ER with a mangled back, and it won't be too long til a heart attack will be discharged after an outpatient stenting procedure!


actually, a small number of cancer patients were sent to buffalo for radiation treatment about a year ago, when there were too few resources (ie, technicians) to perform the duty ... that's not the case now, and of course it was covered by OHIP ... but still it wasn't optimal ...

the only circumstances under which i'd rather live in the US is if i were mega-rich ... couldn't get insurance there now if my life depended on it (hey -- it does! i've had a stroke!!) ...

jb