Hi all. Lately in the news (and in the past) I have been hearing OVER and OVER that hep c can be passed sexually and as of now, through saliva.

I used to work for a world wide prominent Hep C organization and was able to talk to experts all over the world.

I asked every expert I met to give me ONE documented case of sexually transmitted Hep C and NO ONE COULD.

Now, if anyone has any info now that I don't know about, could u tell me and what the source is? (And I don't mean the CDC, they just quote the same stupid logic that has invented the statistics, i.e., "30 to 40% of people don't know where they got it so we assume it is sexually.")

Now, how many people are really going to admit they were i.v. drug users? Also, snorting coke through bloody straws or recepticles is something overlooked and really compelling.

If anyone has info to refute my allegations that we are being overy scared through bad statistics, PLEASE correct me. Thanks

I think most careful students of the numbers would agree that the chances of sexual transmission are very low--5 to 10 percent is often given as the estimated UPPER limit of the risk in a long-term sexual relationship--and this means people who spend many years sleeping with each other. Obviously, this means that the chances of contracting it in a one-time or short-term affair are vanishingly small. So, hep c is not sexually transmitted in the sense that, say, gonorrhea is, where one incident is quite sufficient to transmit the disease.

But, the virus has been detected in most bodily fluids, including saliva (and tears, by the way), so it would not be correct to say there is no chance--zero--of transmission other than by blood. we just don't know for sure.

I personally think the high risk numbers you've seen quoted are indeed ridiculous. No need to incite hysteria on this issue--it is, or should be, a minor issue in the case of hep c. But it would not be fair to our partners to act as if there was no issue here at all. "Rare" is not the same as "never."


sean

Thanks Sean, you really understand the gist of what I am saying. You know, I do know that Hep C has been found in saliva but what confuses me is studies of couples married for years show non-infection in partner so there must be some saliva killing agent in non hep c partner. Of course there is nothing ever 100% impossible but I think that sloppy statistic taking is irresponsible. It just makes me wonder about OTHER statistics since I see how skewed they are on this issue. Anastasia

The one thing I love about this message board is that there are so many good questions ask & so many good people willing to answer them.
I just wish we could get the doctors to read all of what is on this site so they would be more understanding of what our concerns are.
The whole hep c thing seems to be money driven by all sides.
I have only known since November 2001, six months ago that I have hep c & I can't believe how the information has changed in that short a period of time.
When I first came here almost everything you read was treat, treat, treat.
Now it's more of if you are doing ok & are not sick try to wait for something better than what's available now.
Seems the thinking changes very often so I don't plan on taking any of the information too seriously except the don't drink part which I haven't done for the past 15 months.
On the saliva issue ? why not ? If you are deep throat tongue kissing someone with gum disease & you maybe flossed too hard today & bleed a little is that too hard to figure out.
Having sex on your period & partner got a skin lesion ?
Oral sex, partner gum disease?
I only speak for myself & would never want to alarm anyone but I believe there is alot that is unknown or alot they just don't want us to know but either way people need to think for yourself use your common sense don't rely 100 % on anything anyone tells you including & especially a doctor.
Challenge what your doctor tells you the stuff I go back & tell my doctors that I have read from this site leaves them speechless they just look dumbfounded by my questions but if you just sit back & let them direct your treatment with no input on your part I do believe you will glow in the dark before they are through with you.
All I do know for certain is I have had no surgeries,no blood transfusions,no tattoos,no piercings.never did iv drugs.
SO ALL THAT LEAVES IS SEX,DENTIST,LAB WORK, BLOOD WORK ECT !!!
I have been married 18 years & true to my wife she won't get tested she doesn't want to know.
I wish she would for my sanity so I could feel like I haven't given it to her ? but who is to say I didn't get it from her?
I know she has been a faithful mate but they don't know & can't say who gave it to who.
And when you take out all the fake numbers & look at treated people who stayed virus free after they were off treatment for a while it's more like 20% or less.
Not good enough odds for me to go through all that and risk all the possible side affects of treatment.
Only my opinion but isn't it possible that the treatment itself just causes the lab work not to detect the hep while you are on the treatment & then bang when you quit that's why it shows back up?
It never really was gone to begin with? I don't know I don't put much faith in anything I read anymore but the people here know more than the doctors do on this I am sure.

DRSLETMEDOWN-ain't that the truth...My Dr tells me to ask him or the nurse questions instead of the internet. They rush me on my visits, with quick and short answers, instead of showing my lab work and explaining everything to me. I don't feel I can trust them to make the right decisions for me, so I connect everyday on line to learn for myself what's ahead. I think it helps me keep a positive attitude, knowing that I'm in control and not them...As long as they keep avoiding me, I'll find someone else to answer my questions, even if they're less qualified than the Dr(and so far everyone in this group appears more qualified than the so called pros)...Thanks...

------------------
Jeanie

Jeanie,
Please just take this as my personal experiance and not advice. I think in the end all hcv positive people should make their own choices.
I was tested positive back in 95' and have opted out of all recommendations except for regular testing. Two years ago I was told that my numbers had doubled. This was pretty scary, and so I started cutting back on alcohol and started watching my diet more closely and have brought the numbers down to where they usually are. I have refused treatment and have never had a biopsy (spelling?). What ticks me off more than anything else is the fact that I like Sean (above) have never been able to find anyone that can site a case for sexual transmission. I was married for 19 years before my wife devorsed me and we have 3 beautiful girls from that marriage. I immediately told my wife after being told I was positive and told her to get tested which she did. What I did not tell her was that I had taken quite a few risks when I was younger before we had met including certain types of drug experimentation, if you know what I mean. Well she was more pissed off about not being completely forthcoming about the drug use than anything else. By the way she has always tested negative for hcv. Well that didn't seem to matter she divorsed me, or should I say took me to the cleaners, got the house, the kids and a whole lot more. This was very devistating to me and I am still trying to pull myself out of shock after 3 years of being separated and divorsed. Since then I discovered I have diabetes type 2, emphazema and am being treated for depression. I guess my big question is.......Does anybody know of a personals or dating site for hcv positive people. I would really like to find someone who I can be honest with and who won't flip out when they find out about the hep c, so I can try and live a normal life.
Does this make any sense?
Anonimus

Dear Anonymous,

You misunderstood. Nearly 20% of new cases of hepatitis C are from sexual transmission, according to the CDC. If you, like many who contact me, want to avoid the use of condoms by getting involved with someone who is already positive, then you have made a mistake. You CAN transmit other genotypes to someone who is already positive, not to mention any of a number of other sexually transmitted diseases.

Additionally, your dinking may be directly causing a higher viral load, which has been shown to be associated with higher risk for sexually transmitting the virus to a woman.

There has not been a documented case of transmission from a female to a male. The CDC has finally acknowledged this, too. But there are many (yes, many) documented cases of male to female transmission.

So you want a free pass on destroying your liver? Fine, it is your liver.

But to go searching for women who may suffer as a result of your behavior and your choices is asking too much.

Hepatitis C is the least of the issues involved.

thanbey

Thenbey,
Many male to female cases of transmission? Okay, I'm still waiting. NAME ONE!
Anominus

The studies are on the website below my name.

From the homepage, go to the favorite links page, click on reference articles a bibliography at the bottom of the page.

I realize it may take a little time and effort, but do read through all the pages (there are four) to find what you are looking for. It's all there !

thanbey
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)


------------------
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)
preapproved by moderator1

It is easy to site cases of possible transmission of HCV through sex. It is believed that HCV can attach itself to another sexual transmitted virus and be passed that way. The reason it is thought that a woman is at greater risk of catching it from a man is like getting a shot. She is taking fuild into her body with limited exposure to the air. Not to say that gay men dont' share the same risk. As far as, being male or female causing an increased risk, I believe there are to many variables. A woman menstrates, so you would think that could increase risk for men. Studies can be sited all day, but the truth is doctors have a hard time understanding HCV, as we do. One thing I did read about the virus being found in body fuilds other then blood. Is that the process in our body that makes fuilds such as, semen and vaginal fuilds recks any of the virus found in them.

Read the post titled, HepC posted by DIETS for a good discussion on this. It is on this front page currently.

thanbey

[This message has been edited by thanbey (edited 02-03-2003).]

I feel misquoted or misunderstood. I never said i can't cite even one case of transmission--I said in this and other threads, that almost all studies of long-term monogamous couples find a low percentage--as low as zero or as high as 5 to 15 % of the couples, depending on the study--of apparent sexual transmission. You can find some of these studies through Thanbey's site, or through pubmed, or through the hiv and hcv site, or other research-oriented hcv web pages. Also, you can go to your local library or med school library, and leaf trhough Heaptology, or the Journal of Hepatology (Eur.), or like that. The studies are there.

This means to me that the risk is low, but not zero. It is low enough that I've suggested it is not cause for panic, hcv is not contagious in the way that flu is, or smallpox, but THE RISK IS NOT ZERO. Therefore, our partners and loved ones have a need to know.

And if you are to respect yourself in the morning, you have a need to tell them (before the morning after, I mean!)

These cases, in the studies that find them almost always suggest male to female transmission. This is what Thanbey is talking about. Whcih parnter gavewhat to whom is somtimes hard to prove to a certainty, but unless we believe that every one of the partners studied is lying about the past, the pattern is to find a male whose youth included things like drug use or tatoos, or a male who was tranfused, and NOT the woman. It is found in some studies that the woman reports no risk factors except the man she married.

It is fairly easy to follow transfusion recipients, by the way, and they tend to carry a very heavy viral load (probably due to the mass quantitites of infected blood that hit their immune system all at once). These patients, if they are women, do NOT seem to pass the virus to their husbands.

So, it is not so mysterious. There is some transmission, not a raging epidemic, but some. It usually seems to take more than casual or single contact, unlike many STD's, so there is some reassurance there. You don't have to feel like you should go out and contact everybody you ever had a wild night with, or even two wild nights. But still, THE RISK IS NOT ZERO. And, it is usually male to male or male to female. I think to deny these findings is wishful thinking.

The virus that has been detected in bodily fluids, by the way, is not magically deactivated. Blood is a bodily fluid and is the single most reliable transmitter of this disease. I know studies have failed to find transmission by saliva, but semen does not seem to get off so lightly.

I feel this is another of those hcv questions that frustrates us because it does not yield simple, black and white answers--it requires study and thought. And lord knows, we hate that! Gotta do it, though.


peace to all,


sean

It's interesting and confusing to me how everything I read about passing this virus to another human via sexual contact says not to change habits if you are in a steady relationship....A few recommend condoms...but most advise no change in sexual habits. They don't even seem concerned about having sex during a womans menstration......But that's the way it is with everythindg to do with this virus...Nothing is clear cut about it. Not the cure, nor the treatment, nor the severity, nothing!!!!

Thanbey,
Just a comment in regard to your reply of 02-02-2003 9:41 AM.
When I read this I had to ask myself who is mis-understanding who. I realize this is out of context but "If you, like many who contact me, want to avoid the use of condoms"....... Who the hell ever said I wanted to avoid the use of condoms? God, your making me out to be somebody like that Mad Dentist who was hell bent on infecting his patients with the virus by injecting them!

I'm sory you took this so personally. Try to remember that you are, really, anonymous.

I answer questions here in the broadest possible way and I attempt to address issues head on.

In order to teach and communicate on this topic, I feel a responsibility to be forthright.

I don't think a person has to be a monster in order to want to avoid condoms. The fact is, the men who contact me often state this outright....they want me to convince their partner that condoms ar unnecessary.

Many people also, mistakenly, believe that finding a new partner with hepC will solve the poblem of sexual transmission. I feel obligated to say that it ain't necessarily so.

best thoughts,

thanbey
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)

------------------
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)
preapproved by moderator1

Hi everyone,

Something for your brains to wonder about. Yes, I used straws and my first husband died from complications of Hep C. Makes you wonder which one I got Hep c from doesn't it? Keep the faith

------------------

hey there drsletmedown
i've had the virus since/82,found out about it in dec/99. the shock was something else but i sure read up on it (never had a com, at the time).i never did any kind of treatment. but if i decide to one day i will.
keep the faith,bless you...mj

hey there anastasiarose
welcome to the board http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif this is just an incodent (one of my many)i went to see my liv dr. but he wasn't in so i seen one of his colleges.first time ever meeting him! he entered the room introduced himself,asked how long i had the virus (my chart was "closed" in front of him).i told him since 1982, i was shocked at what he said after that!(this is what happens when you all party with your shootig up speed, you all end up here with hep to see me.)...i kid you not the nerve of him, needless to say that i had a few choice words of my own for him and also told him that if he was to look at my chart then he would see operative reports, along with blood bank id's,etc. i was just appaulled at him. i made another apt. and made sure that it was my own liv dr, and not the other guy. him i seen that.being a physician he should not assume things like that or at least keep his oppinion to himself.here i go babbeling http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
keep the faith,bless you...mj

Hey MJ, That Dr is a jerk. (which is to nice a word to use to describe him) They don't need to antagonize a hepper, because they could become one too!!! Take care and God bless...

------------------
Jeanie

You could copy that message and drop it in a suggestion box at the hospital if you want to remain anonymous. hospital board need to know how their patients are being treated!

I'm a 38 year old male. Other than the HCV I consider myself a healthy guy and have been active in football, rugby and boxing. I've never taken drugs and have always practiced safe sex and have been happily married for 8 years. I recieved the virus during multiple transfusions during surgeries back in 1982.

I would have taken the doctor's comments as a direct insult and would have voiced my concerns accordingly. For obvious reasons, I am now very careful about not putting myself in situations where I might come into contact with blood. I say this as I would have seriously considered braking his nose!

I'm not kidding here. You need to pursue this with the hospital (or at least his office). I'm not sure of your medical or lifestyle history and it should not have been a consideration anyway. He should have dealt with you as an individual and treated you as such. Blanket statements such as his only hurt patients such as yourself.

I look forward to reading how you plan to resolve this with the doctor.

Thanbey: if you think my comments above were out of line than feel free to delete them. I recognize that care must be taken to maintain forums such as these.

People with her C already have enough emotional trauma to deal with. I might go to a good psychologist and be evaluated to see the degree of damage that remark may have done and report that to the board and possibly disciplinary commission. (too bad there wasn't a witness....was there?) (his broken nose would have been an outter sign of the emotional trauma he caused and used as evidence against him) Aanother thought is that abusers probably choose a victim they have some sort of control over. That wouldnt have been said to a person unless he thought he could get by with it.

[This message has been edited by Wes1212 (edited 02-09-2003).]

Dear JHL,

I have no authority to delete (or censor) posts, and I wouldn't if I could.

I am not the moderator here.

I started the Hepatitis C Outreach Project as a non-profit educational effort to teach about hepatitis C in 1992. Since then, I have used the internet to educate and have landed on this board to answer questions from people. It is my personal way to keep in touch with the community I serve. I have tried to offer a place of accurate information in a sea of marketing from drug companies.

This board has no obligation to me and I have none to it.

We are supported through donations (www.hcop.org)

For the record, I think that doc was a total jerk, too.

thanbey
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)

------------------
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)
preapproved by moderator1

hi wess 1212, thank's for the reply
i thought about going to the administrator about it, but i had to get out of there . but i did blast him good.
keep the faith,bless you...mj

hi JHL, thank's for the reply
i hear you!!!and i fully agree, but i feel that i would get to upset(i'm medicated for panic attacks&anxiety).i can control myself as best i can. that situation with him, could have gotten out of control.he really heard it from me but good before i slamned his door, so did every one else http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif .at that point i just had to get away from him and out of there!it doesn't bother me now though. if he as an "individual"is that ignorant and he is a "specialist" then that thought kind of makes me feel better knowing that he isn't my doc.the incodent happened a few years back. but what i did do, when i got home that day was make an apt.to see my own specialist, i even asked for my own doc (just to make sure).then when i seen my own doc. that was the first thing i mentioned.he was very oppoligetic to me.i haven't nor would i care to see the other doc again.
keep the faith,bless you...mj

Back to the original question (sexual transmission) -- I found out I had Hep-C AFTER I started dating my boyfriend but still haven't had the *^%$#'s to tell him. I did admit recently I did drugs 30 yrs ago but didn't tell him it was IV -- he's never done drugs of any kind. I did also tell him I was having some "liver problems" which is how I explained why I was having a biopsy. I know I owe him the truth, but I am afraid it will change our relationship or freak him out. Based on what I've read here and what my dr has told me, when I do tell him, I plan to say the risk of sexual transmission is very low and even rarer from female-to-male. However, even if he didn't test positive now, could a continued relationship be a risk? (We do not use condoms and I no longer menstruate.) This is soooooo annoying that the sins of our pasts come back to haunt us when we are middle-aged, upstanding citizens! Thanks for all the support!

Boy do I hear you about past sins coming back to bite you in the butt. I've had HepC for over 22 years, drank off and on, given birth to three daughter's that I did not transmit the disease to, had three sex partners that were not infected by me through intercourse or anyother risky behaviour such as razors, tweezers, manicure tools, etc...Ichewed my babies food, bathed with them, shaved with them (eeeek)but even though nobody has got it from me I still have to tell everyone I come in contact with and now I feel completely banished from every having another physical relationship. Who is going to want to go past the third date when you tell them? I don't think I would.

Hi Avalon, I believe that honesty is the best policy. If a person can't accept you as you are, screw him (literally) I have two past relationships that have tested negative for hcv. Apparently the transmission of hcv from female to male must be a very rare incident rate. As a woman, I prefer protection, since I'm going to be a grandmother for the 1st time in June, I don't need anymore surprises, like me being a mother again myself. Unfortunately I think most men don't like to use protection. Good luck, I hope this person you have this relationship is understanding...PS are you still digging out from the snow up there? I was in my home town (Downingtown) during the x-mas holiday, which is 32 miles from you...

------------------
Jeanie

Well, Dolly and Jeannie, I'll let you know....I think I'll tell the boyfriend this weekend. I've decided to stop drinking altogether and of course that will shock him as I just LOVE my martini's. So in the course of that convo, I'll probably just spill the whole story. We'll see....hopefully I won't need Match.com after telling him!

Yes, Jean, the snow is still a problem....traffic has been a nightmare because some of the lanes still aren't plowed. I live very close to Downingtown.

I'll keep you posted on the "reaction", ladies!

Hi Avalon--

Both your decisions seem gutsy to me, and admirable.

Keep us posted, please. You're on my mind, that's for sure. I think I speak for all of us.


peace and all good thoughts for the weekend.


sean

Hey Avalon, I hope everything works out ok for you. I broke up with someone 8 months before I was diagnosed and we were together for 4 years. I guess, I sound like a scorned women, because I could care less about a relationship right now. I have good friends for moral support and I'm staying focused on bettering my self, health wise that is. I just think it's time I started to put my needs ahead of others. I don't think this is self centered, it's just a fact and it's something I (a hepper) will have to deal with. I hope you can quit the drinking, you'll have to in order to do tx. My dr said he likes his patients clean 6 months prior to tx...PS I found it easier to quit drinking than the smoking, so if you don't smoke, you've got one less habit to break...I beleive that things happen for a reason...Good luck any way, keep me posted...PSS I have family living in Downingtown...Keep warm up there...

------------------
Jeanie

Back to the question and can only speak for myself and family. I have been maried faithfully for 25 years. and think that I have been carring since 1972. My wife and I have a healthy sex life. After I found out in June of last year I had hep my wife and kids were tested and all came back negitave. Thank God!!!! My biggist concern was the razors. I shave in the shower and use to leave it there (not any more) and every one would use it, my wife, my daughter and even my son when he first started shaving. Unlike me with a light beard he started shaving as a freshmen in HS. I don"t want to bury my head in the sand but I feel it is a little more difficult to transmit then through kissing or sex or any other normal day to day contact in a relation ship. Again I aint sayen it cant happen but I think it is a little bit far fetched. Now if you are talking violent sex acts and thing like that it is a horse of a different color.

Just one lay persons opinion

Rare Cuts

hi there avalon
sound's like you've already opened the door to letting him know, when you mentioned that you have a liver problem.i understand you concerns as we all have had to cross them,but we must with this virus learning what we can, sharring info,(etc).i would tell him..like you mentioned "you know that you owe him the truth".if your relastionship is strong,as a couple you can pull threw together.i wish you the best.
keep the faith,bless you...mj

In december of 02 I tested positve for hep C and I also tested postive in 92 for hepc after I returned from the PGW. My hep count in 02 was 7,000,000 at least that was my spead sheet said. but the classes I attended firmly stated that hep C counld not transmitted sexually or by kissing. But they said if you come in contact with the blood of a pos hep c patient then it could be transmitted. If you have bleeding gums and someone else used youe toothbrush is the same. I've never did anyone drugs in my life nor cocain up my nose I was submiited to in the PGW, most likely by removing and recoving the dead bodies, we had no medical gloves, and by the chemicals we were exposed too. I've been married now for 25 years and none of my family have it and my wife and I are sexually active when I can. I'am a disabled veteran and take some very heavy duty drugs just to keep me at a point where I can live a almost normal life. I attened my hep c classes at my local va hospital and thats the reference I have except just watching what I eat and I maybe have a beer or two a week. Mike

------------------

Mike, I'm surprised to hear your drinking at all. I thought that alcohol was like adding more fuel to the fire. Isn't both hcv and alcohol attacking the liver, causing double the damage or more?

------------------
Jeanie

hi there redleg82nd
that's right the virus will come in contact (blood to blood)i've had this since /82, and my hubby doesn't have it.i'm suprized at the alcohol though,as that will certainly add "fuel to the fire".but smoking is bad also, unfortunatly i smoke.amongst alot of other ailments that i have , i feel that everyone has there own way of dealing with this.
keep the faith,bless you...mj

Hi, great forum. I have just a met a wonderful woman, who does have Hep C and has been very forthright in telling me. I am a male who does not have Hep C, and is reasonably healthy. Future permitting...lol, We would both like to have children, which, last time I checked involves in unprotected sex. Can I assume from reading posts and other sites etc, that the chance for Hep C to be transmitted from Female to Male is exceptionally low? I know there is always a risk, but have there been many if any cases of Hep C being passed from Female to Male. Also, kissing? I mean if this disease can exist in saliva, is there much of a risk. Thanks all for your posts

No cases of female to male sexual transmission have been documented.

There has been one case documented of transmission by kissing. In that instance , there was SEVERE dental and gum disease on both sides.

HCV can be transmitted from mother to child in about 5-7% of cases. These involve women with high viral loads and/or co-infection with HIV. Determination of transmission takes about 18 months- 3 years as the child does receive maternal antibodies at birth. These usually resolve (disappear)over time.

best thoughts to you both.

thanbey

------------------
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)
preapproved by moderator1

[This message has been edited by thanbey (edited 05-05-2003).]

Hello Nevada,I am a woman with Hep C & I am a 1B.Which is the hardest to treat .I have been married for 7 years & contracted this before I was with my husband.We had never had protected sex before I was diagnosed & He is fine.The chances of transmiting through sex (woman to man)are slim ,unless you have open wounds.I also have to have Invitro Fertilization to have a child,That is how I found out I have HCV in the first place.Even though I am HCV positve,I can still have Invitro they will still treat me.The chances of passing it from mother to child are very slim,Like 5%.If the child does get it by that slim chance ,They beat the disease & are not a carrier of HCV.So my husband & I still plan on having children & I am not worried about infecting my children with this.I hope this helps.Take Care ! Cudagirl

Cudagirl,

I hate it when I have to make a correction. And it is really tough when I have to tell you something very unpleasant. But, I can't ignore the error just cause it is unpleasant.

Children who do test positive by PCR after 10 months are not home free. Some of those children may need more than one liver transplant in a lifetime. They can, indeed, transmit the virus in the usual ways, also.

Hepatitis C in children is very serious when it progresses. No one is certain yet just what the course can be expected to be, but in some children, it will result in serious liver damage.

Another cold, hard fact about hepatitis C. For more informaiotn on children and hepatitis C, check out studies by Dr. Kathleen Schwartz.

thanbey



------------------
www.hcop.org (http://www.hcop.org)
preapproved by moderator1

oops!

[This message has been edited by thanbey (edited 05-05-2003).]

interesting post DLMD
and my point exactly, i have been with my husband now for 16 years(never knew i had this till/99),just the same he get's tested, and he doesn't have it.take care
keep the faith, bless you..............mj

testing

I would have to say the subject of sex is the sorest spot since I was RXd with Hep c.
Quit drugs and drinking got Married, stayed monogamous and then 18 years later this pops up.
She got tested and was negative after 20+ years of unprotected sex. She took birth control pills after our first child.
She freaked, her Doctor said why take a chance mine said it was so unlikely that it was almost impossible.
Now I have a problem of feeling toxic and she acts like I have a gun pointed at her head.
To make a long story short I meet someone else with Hep C and all I can think about is having some real sex with her. Sick I know. I miss the intimate contact.

Hi Nevada,
I have two children and neither one of them has contracted HCV. I have had HCV since before my daughters were born. They know if Mommy is bleeding not to touch me or the blood. I even tell friends and co workers not to touch me if I am bleeding. Human nature is to run and help someone if they are bleeding. It is a blood born illness, in most cases passed by blood to blood contact. If you love someone the fact that they have HCV shouldn't be a factor. You just take precautions not to obtain it which we should all do anyway.

Love sees no color or disease.

Take care and God bless,
Lorna

Hi all,

A couple of points on the sexual transmission and "to tell or not to tell" topics. These both have been the subject of numerous threads, and here and in my "Question for Thanbey," Thanbey has directed to some archives stating studies etc. if we want to know more (thanks).

Anyway, empirical evidence (though not a scientific study) perhaps helps to some extent, and I see that by other posts, there have been a lot of positive experiences with NOT transmitting the virus to others. I point to two of my personal experiences to add to the body of evidence:

I likely got HCV in the early 80's from experimental drug use (straws and a couple of times using IV needles). Risks just weren't known to me at the time so now I pay. Anyway, I had monogamous partner throughout that time for total of 12 years with completely unprotected sex (even during menstruation -gross but important). I contacted him recently to warn of my diagnosis, and he said that he is negative. Yeah for that!

On the subject of revealing to partners (or potential partners), even if the risk it low to none for women to men, we still need to be upfront as long as there is ANY risk to another. Just reflect on what we are all dealing with and there is no question whether we can put someone else in this position knowingly, right? Also, if they chose to continue with us, they can opt for the A and B vaccines which would at least no compound things if they did get HCV. No to mention reducing the known risk factors also by being aware (sharing razors and the like).

Not saying that it isn't torture leading up to and then having to tell someone. I was only a few months into a really nice relationship when I had to tell my boyfriend. He panicked initially and had to research it himself, but then ultimately decided that I was worth whatever small risk. I could not have dealt with all I am going through without him knowing - it would have been a complete lie and would have tormented me with guilt.

I hope it works out as well for other relationships out there, but everyone reacts differently to these things. Hopefully, we can all find the support and relationships that we need to get through this life altering news.

Good luck Avalon. Good choices!

Take care all,

Robyn

I applaud your honesty & we all know it's the best policy.
We are talking about other peoples lives here & they deserve to know.
In the sort time ( under two years ) that I have been reading & learning everything I can it has changed quite a bit from what eveyone was saying in the beginning.
It's kind of like one day you can & should eat this, this & this & then it's no don't eat this, this & this.
You see more posts now saying if you can wait to treat you should & before it was TREAT, TREAT , TREAT !
There is so many unknowns about this disease yet to know why ever take a chance with another human being when it can be avoided.

There are actually some HepC support groups through various hospitals, etc. If you can find one in your area, maybe one could find a significant other there. That way there would be a common bond and each person could support each other. Just a thought.

Robyn, well put! I agree whole heartedly. I could never live with the guilt of not disclosing the truth. Glad you got a good guy to stand by you. Mine took off, I think the news was too much for him (his loss).

Take care and God bless,
Lorna

Well, Dolly and Jeannie, I'll let you know....I think I'll tell the boyfriend this weekend. I've decided to stop drinking altogether and of course that will shock him as I just LOVE my martini's. So in the course of that convo, I'll probably just spill the whole story. We'll see....hopefully I won't need ********** after telling him!

Yes, Jean, the snow is still a problem....traffic has been a nightmare because some of the lanes still aren't plowed. I live very close to Downingtown.

I'll keep you posted on the "reaction", ladies!
Hi Avalon,
So did you ever tell him? What WAS his reaction... I am dying of curiosity,
God bless,
Lisa

I talked to my doctor the other day about this exact issue. I was an iv drug user and that is where me and my husband both got it from. i asked and the doc said no documented cases were available. another thing to consider with people in long term sexual relationships is the fact that they probably share other things too like, tooth brushes, and razors ect..... and i am pregnant and i am allowed to breast feed and was under the understanding that the virus was not in bodily fluids other than blood. i know it is not like aids which is found in semen and passed that way.

RARE Cuts
that is exactly what my doctor said....violent sex is a whole other story than just regular sexual intercours transmission

I recently told my past partner of 7yras that I had HepC and he doesn't have it he has been test about 3 or 4 times in the past 3yrs. He was understanding anloving and very supportive about my illness and is willing to care for me through it all even though we are no longer in a relationship at the moment. I was greatful for that and felt so blessed.

But my story goes on I recently told my new partner about it because even though I was scared i know he needed to know and he was also suuportive and loving when i told him he was glad I was honest with him and he loved me for telling him th truth.

I had some blood transfusion in 1993 and 1995 I have never used drugs or anything of the kind and I am not sure how i contracted the disease at this point because the doctor says he doesn't know how long I have had it but he feels that it might not have been from the blood transfusions but he is not sure at this point but I am glad that I told my partners because they need to stay healthy and well and I plan too also.


I am so sorry for anyone who does not have the support of their love ones or partners but i believe that God will bring someone into play who will understand and love you and support you but in the meantime focus on what is important and that is your health and happiness because that is what I am doing! ;) :)

Glod Bless everyone! :angel:

Just saw this topic come up again. I got Hep from my hubby after 18 years of marriage. Without getting too graphic, we dont do anything weird. So I got it from toothbrush, razor or quite possibly from sex because he has a condtion that shows up if he takes too many antibiotics and it would be easy to see how it could have come through that situaiton. I never say never. I was never told to be careful for any reason with anything in the house and now I have it. You never know.

I am having problems because of the actual risks involved with Hep C and sex. Are there ant actual documented cases of the spread of Hep C through sex? I've seen the percentage of 5-10, is this based on documentation?

Just saw this topic come up again. I got Hep from my hubby after 18 years of marriage. Without getting too graphic, we dont do anything weird. So I got it from toothbrush, razor or quite possibly from sex because he has a condtion that shows up if he takes too many antibiotics and it would be easy to see how it could have come through that situaiton. I never say never. I was never told to be careful for any reason with anything in the house and now I have it. You never know.

I am sorry to hear that but I was told not share my toothbrush or the things I used on my feet like a toenail clipper or not to use anyones razor no blood on bllod contact because it is a blood transmittted disease. But my doctor emphasized to me when i get my menstral to be more away and where pajamas to bed and make sure to wear a extra pads because i do not want any of my blood to get on anyone. I was with someone for 7yrs and he does not have it and we have bben having unprotected sex throughout our whole relationship so I am hoping it is not sexual transmitted because alot more people will be getting it.

I am having problems because of the actual risks involved with Hep C and sex. Are there ant actual documented cases of the spread of Hep C through sex? I've seen the percentage of 5-10, is this based on documentation?

Yes, there are documented cases. I publish studies on the website below my name.

Sexual transmission was proven by comparing DNA sample to determine whether exposure was sexual or from something else. They ruled out other behaviors by eliminating people who had other common risk factors.

The prevalence rate was anywhere from 5-11%. Prevalence rates mean how many people out of 100 in a population sample came up positive through suspected sexual transmission.

That is not the same as risk. Risk is either 0 or 100%. You either contract it or you don't.

These two statistics are often confused even by doctors, who should know better.

I hope this helps,

thanbey

See? I'll bet they told my hubby to tell me to be careful. I remember they did have me go be tested and I did not have hep then (it was just about three years ago, and I think I have had it for two now.) I just never thought about razors or anything else, including this other medical condition he has. So, you never know. I would like to think it doesnt happen often, but it sure did surprise me when it did.

But my doctor emphasized to me when i get my menstral to be more away and where pajamas to bed and make sure to wear a extra pads because i do not want any of my blood to get on anyone.


Sorry, but that is flat out dumb advice. Totally unecessary unless you sleep on top of someone with open wounds. Even then, a transmission would be very difficult. This is a prime example of ignorance in the medical profession. Leaves me shaking my head.

thanbey

Sorry, but that is flat out dumb advice. Totally unecessary unless you sleep on top of someone with open wounds. Even then, a transmission would be very difficult. This is a prime example of ignorance in the medical profession. Leaves me shaking my head.

thanbey

Thanks for the info that is why I come to the boards!

Yes, there are documented cases. I publish studies on the website below my name.

Sexual transmission was proven by comparing DNA sample to determine whether exposure was sexual or from something else. They ruled out other behaviors by eliminating people who had other common risk factors.

The prevalence rate was anywhere from 5-11%. Prevalence rates mean how many people out of 100 in a population sample came up positive through suspected sexual transmission.

That is not the same as risk. Risk is either 0 or 100%. You either contract it or you don't.

These two statistics are often confused even by doctors, who should know better.

I hope this helps,

thanbey


Hi Thenbay, I went to the website a few times and I just CANNOT find the article you're talking about. Anyway I can find it easier? Thanks so much.

Yes, there are documented cases. I publish studies on the website below my name.

Sexual transmission was proven by comparing DNA sample to determine whether exposure was sexual or from something else. They ruled out other behaviors by eliminating people who had other common risk factors.

The prevalence rate was anywhere from 5-11%. Prevalence rates mean how many people out of 100 in a population sample came up positive through suspected sexual transmission.

That is not the same as risk. Risk is either 0 or 100%. You either contract it or you don't.

These two statistics are often confused even by doctors, who should know better.

I hope this helps,

thanbey
What DNA testing could they possibly compare to tell if it came from sex or not? that does not even make sense. i went to a siminar last night where doctor cecil from Louisville kentucky was speaking and he said that is rarely transmitted that way and he believes that the only reason it has been spread that way is because the people have std's that might have open soars for blood transmission. there are a lot of people, in fact, the majority of couples where one is infected and one is not and they have had unprotected sex for years and the other one is not infected. The medical proffesion does not even recommend using condoms in relationships where one is infected and one is not.

In some people, it takes a while for the antibodies to build and show up in a test. It took me a while to show up positive. I had it for almost a year and half and still tested negative and then tested positive like 6 months later.

double post, sorry

What DNA testing could they possibly compare to tell if it came from sex or not? that does not even make sense. i went to a siminar last night where doctor cecil from Louisville kentucky was speaking and he said that is rarely transmitted that way and he believes that the only reason it has been spread that way is because the people have std's that might have open soars for blood transmission. there are a lot of people, in fact, the majority of couples where one is infected and one is not and they have had unprotected sex for years and the other one is not infected. The medical proffesion does not even recommend using condoms in relationships where one is infected and one is not.


Actually is DOES make sense. They can islolate the molecular material and compare the particulates down to the very strain. Like telling that people are related, they can do this with the virus. There is much more to it than simply matching the genotype. They can then know whether the people involved transmitted the virus from one to the other.

As to Dr. Cecil's opinion, that is all it is: one person's opinion. It does not cancel out the scientific studies. There are many medical professionals who disagree with his opinions.

STD's are definitely a risk. So is domestic violence. That doesn't mean sexual transmission isn't possible as well.

As before, sexual transmission happens. Not frequently, but it happens. That is a fact. It appears tied mostly to the male partner's viral load (in heterosexual sexual relations) more than anything else. But that could be shown to be wrong in time. A recent study showed alarming rates of sexual transmission among gay men. Sobering.

Irrelevant? I don't think so. We do not have the luxury of thinking that everyone's sexual behavior is like everyone else's. There is no "mainstream" in the bedroom anymore. And, in a public discussion of the topic, we cannot afford to leave out those who have sex a lot: young people who "hook up," gay people, married swingers, and married people who are monogamous but whose spouses are not.

What precautions or risks people decide to accept is up to them. Medical professionals with rose colored glasses about people's sexual behavior are not doing a public service to people.

thanbey

Actually is DOES make sense. They can islolate the molecular material and compare the particulates down to the very strain. Like telling that people are related, they can do this with the virus. There is much more to it than simply matching the genotype. They can then know whether the people involved transmitted the virus from one to the other.

As to Dr. Cecil's opinion, that is all it is: one person's opinion. It does not cancel out the scientific studies. There are many medical professionals who disagree with his opinions.

STD's are definitely a risk. So is domestic violence. That doesn't mean sexual transmission isn't possible as well.

As before, sexual transmission happens. Not frequently, but it happens. That is a fact. It appears tied mostly to the male partner's viral load (in heterosexual sexual relations) more than anything else. But that could be shown to be wrong in time. A recent study showed alarming rates of sexual transmission among gay men. Sobering.

Irrelevant? I don't think so. We do not have the luxury of thinking that everyone's sexual behavior is like everyone else's. There is no "mainstream" in the bedroom anymore. And, in a public discussion of the topic, we cannot afford to leave out those who have sex a lot: young people who "hook up," gay people, married swingers, and married people who are monogamous but whose spouses are not.

What precautions or risks people decide to accept is up to them. Medical professionals with rose colored glasses about people's sexual behavior are not doing a public service to people.

thanbey
you are definatly right about this day and age concerning sex. and that makes more sense. So basically they can test the dna of the hep and tell one person gave it to the next? that makes sense, but then the question is how did they actually give it to them? sex, a toothbrush, a razor????? no one can know. but you are also right saying that it is not something we have the luxury to assume. very true! and good point. one thing i did not get to ask the doctor was exactly how long the drugs for hep c have been labled and used for treatment among hep c patients. do you know????? he did go over a lot of the new drugs that are being worked on but not going to be released or ready for, at a minimuim, a few years or more. what was very scary to me was how many people were there who had done treatments and were non-responders. That and just how many people were there that already were in the first stage of sirosis or one behind it. some of these people had hep for like 13 years and already were in the first stage of sirosis. i know i am spelling that wrong. sorry. i am 28 and i have had it for a little over three years. the one lady i talked to was young and was already in sirosis and had only had it for 13 years. i asked if she had used or drank and she had been clean and sober for something like 10 years. she also had another genetic thing that caused her body to produce too much iron. does that seem normal? the progression is a semi- healthy person? the one thing i did notice is the doctors did not talk about health as far as diet, exersize, vitamins , ect... go figure. i am having this baby in one week and i was wondering what your suggestion would be as far as what vitamins i should take along with mild thistle? i know i don't want iron, but what else do i need or not want?

you are definatly right about this day and age concerning sex. and that makes more sense. So basically they can test the dna of the hep and tell one person gave it to the next? that makes sense, but then the question is how did they actually give it to them? sex, a toothbrush, a razor????? no one can know. but you are also right saying that it is not something we have the luxury to assume. very true! and good point. one thing i did not get to ask the doctor was exactly how long the drugs for hep c have been labled and used for treatment among hep c patients. do you know????? he did go over a lot of the new drugs that are being worked on but not going to be released or ready for, at a minimuim, a few years or more. what was very scary to me was how many people were there who had done treatments and were non-responders. That and just how many people were there that already were in the first stage of sirosis or one behind it. some of these people had hep for like 13 years and already were in the first stage of sirosis. i know i am spelling that wrong. sorry. i am 28 and i have had it for a little over three years. the one lady i talked to was young and was already in sirosis and had only had it for 13 years. i asked if she had used or drank and she had been clean and sober for something like 10 years. she also had another genetic thing that caused her body to produce too much iron. does that seem normal? the progression is a semi- healthy person? the one thing i did notice is the doctors did not talk about health as far as diet, exersize, vitamins , ect... go figure. i am having this baby in one week and i was wondering what your suggestion would be as far as what vitamins i should take along with mild thistle? i know i don't want iron, but what else do i need or not want?


What is wrong with the idea that we CAN know exactly how anyone contracted hepatitis C is that no one was photographing the virus going from one person to the other at the time. That goes for sexual transmission, tattoing and IV drug use, too. The only people who know for certain are those whose blood transfusions were documented and later tracked back.

What researchers can do is exhaustively interview people about their behavior and try to root out people who are not being forthcoming and who do not fit the design of the study. In clinical trials, "all comers" studies are the best ones. That is because people are not chosen by criteria that will potentially make the drug look its best, they are all taken in equally.

So, when we look at transmission, what has happened in the past is that anyone reporting IV drug use was automatically assumed to have contracted it that way, whether or not they had other risk factors. The questions just stopped right there. No more question were even asked. We can assume that some percentage of those who had used IV drugs once or more contracted the virus another way. That could have been childhood exposure to blood products, mother-to-child transmission, a tattoo, sex, vaccine guns, or any of the other possible ways. No one can know for certain.

What researcher try to do is eliminate as many risk factors from study subjects as possible. So, people who tried IV drugs even once, people with tattoos, those with medical histories of blood products, etc are eliminated. Then, the remainder of people are questioned. What is found to be the most common risk among the remaining subjects results a "conclusion" of the study (It's never 100% They find only "statistical significance") A lot depends on the design of the study and how well it is done and who is paying for it. Conclusions, even the best conclusions, are still an educated guess.

The testing we refer to here is done only in research environments but, yes it can isolate whether two people have a common strain that matches. It is not done in commercially (your doctor cannot order it up) It is a reserch tool only at this point.

We do not have any good way to know how people actually contracted the disease in an individual case. What we can figure out is what groups of people have a higher risk than another group of people by isolating information common to the largest group of those people Heterosexual, monogamous couples have a low risk AS A GROUP, but individuals still have to make decisions about their relationship and how they will proceed based on what will happen if they are the ones.

Consequently, telling all couple that they do not have to worry is false confidence. People need to make those decision based on sound information. As a public health message, "don't worry about it" is not a good message because you simple cannot know what individual people's behaviors are, only specific groups of people. That is why a risk for a group can be measured in a percentage but in one individual it is always either zero or 100%. It does or it doesn't. Doctors are not trained in the consequences of their statement on people's lives. They are not trained in nutrition, sexuality, or a host of other issues that are pertinent to the public health and the safety of their patients. Their opinions are just as valid as any other person's on these topics. Often, it is their own behaviors (and their assumptions about yours)that govern their advice, not medical facts.

Now, the treatments are largely ineffective and toxic. Pretty much every researcher knows that. They even state in the introductions regarding treatment studies now. It is a given. The pharmaceutical companies would have us believe they are a cure and will improve the histology of your liver even if you do not respond or you relapse. Well, rates of long term response is still pretty low. It is commonly cited at around 30% overall. A little better for genotype 2, but still, the variables now are many. African Americans respond less ofte, obese peole do not respond as well, co-infected patients are having toxicity problems, and those with sedentary lifestyles (with high cholestrol and fat in the liver) do less well also. These factors are incredibly important if treatment is to succeed. Smoking and alcohol are minimized as factors in the progression of liver disease and response to therapy. They are of high importance, possibly more than the drug itself.

So anyway, the research that was given to the FDA (and the testimony of the experts appearing at the hearing) to approve treatment stated that if you respond, there definitely is a benefit to the architechture of your liver (progression to cirrhosis) from the treatment.

What people are not hearing is the rest of that story. If you do not respond and/or relapse, that benefit is probably temporary. Biopsies of those in the study showed that the progression worsened after one year in those who did not respond or relapsed. If I was making a treatment decision, I would want to know that, especially if I were a genotype 1.

The caveat here is that, for those who have minimal progression, one risk of treating is the risk of worsening liver damage over time IF they do not respond or they relapse. That has been downplayed by the discussions we see on internet boards and by doctors who are paid by the drug companies.
For people at risk of progression after a course of treatment, one option is a low dose of therapy either intermittantly or ongoing. At least, that is one proposal. Longer courses of treatment (out to 72 weeks at this point) do not show an increased benefit. The toxic side effects of the treatment tip the balance to more cost than potential for benefit.

New drugs are in the pipeline. I don't see too many that are not going to be used in combination with interferon, however.

If you look at the ways to manage your liver disease (See Strategies on the website), and educate yourself about the functions of the human liver, treatment is only one issue that patients need to pay attention to.

This is a many layered disease and progression of liver disease may have more causes in one patient than simply the presence of the virus alone. We know that viral load and progression are not related to each other. The treatment may reduce viral load, but if it does not eliminate it, you are at increased risk for progression after one year. Maybe this is why we are seeing increased progression rates in the meeting you are attending?

It may be, and likely is, the result of many poor health choices that Americans make. Hepatitis C, particularly genotype 1, is worse in the USA than anywhere else in the world due o the American lifestyle.

Frankly, it's time we started paying attention to this and investing in research that will tell us more about the virus in the lives of real people and less about interferon treatments. We probably know a what we need to know about that for a while.

I hope this helps,

thanbey