I have T at the lower end of the normal range and my doctor has put me on Androgel. I am 63 years old. I had most the symptoms of low T. I have read a lot on these boards about keeping E2 at the low end of the range and understand the reasons for that. However, I have found some large study reports that show a reason for E2 to be higher for men. I have reports of 2 large studies: one of 123 men with T below the minimum normal and one of 448 elderly men (age 68-96)

The first study showed that men on Androgel had increases in both T and E2 over the 3 year study. The E2 rose from the bottom of the normal range to the top within the first year. Bone mass density also rose. It was thought that the rise in bone mass was because of the higher E2, but could not be proven.

The second study of 448 men was a study of men with varying bone mass measurements, T levels and E2 levels. The numbers from the study led to the conclusion that, in elderly men, hypogonadism related to aging has little influence on bone mineral density, but estradiol levels have a strong and positive association with bone mineral density. It showed that men with E2 at the lower part of the normal range had bone mass densities similar to that for a man 10 years older who was at the higher part of the normal range.

So the question is: Is E2 in men really a bad thing? I guess that is tough to answer, as it can cause both good and bad effects, as it can in women also. I haven't seen this discussed here, so I thought I would post this for thought and comment.

I have T at the lower end of the normal range and my doctor has put me on Androgel. I am 63 years old. I had most the symptoms of low T. I have read a lot on these boards about keeping E2 at the low end of the range and understand the reasons for that. However, I have found some large study reports that show a reason for E2 to be higher for men. I have reports of 2 large studies: one of 123 men with T below the minimum normal and one of 448 elderly men (age 68-96)

The first study showed that men on Androgel had increases in both T and E2 over the 3 year study. The E2 rose from the bottom of the normal range to the top within the first year. Bone mass density also rose. It was thought that the rise in bone mass was because of the higher E2, but could not be proven.

The second study of 448 men was a study of men with varying bone mass measurements, T levels and E2 levels. The numbers from the study led to the conclusion that, in elderly men, hypogonadism related to aging has little influence on bone mineral density, but estradiol levels have a strong and positive association with bone mineral density. It showed that men with E2 at the lower part of the normal range had bone mass densities similar to that for a man 10 years older who was at the higher part of the normal range.

So the question is: Is E2 in men really a bad thing? I guess that is tough to answer, as it can cause both good and bad effects, as it can in women also. I haven't seen this discussed here, so I thought I would post this for thought and comment.

whytry,
This is definately worth some discussion!

I cannot at all address the bone mass issue, unfortunately however, through my experience, and that is really the only important conclusion, not tests and not studies by companies that always have their own interests and motives in mind, Estradiol is another one of those hormones where you can have either too much or too little.

Through the process of elimination (I am an experimentalist! :D ), I discovered that it is actually Estradiol and not DHT that caused my BPH. I take Allergy Research DIM Palmetto to combat it on both fronts but it has always been insufficient and "iffy" with just Saw Palmetto for 20 years!

Reading body builder sites, numerous online studies on Estradiol's effects on the prostate gland *and* on a man's libido, I came to the conclusion that an Estradiol reading of around 20-25 pg/ml is best. Anything less and a man's libido suffers. Anything more and BPH may flare up. That of course, is if a man has BPH issues. If not, it is obviouisly not relevant.

You also have to take into consideration that Estradiol, although reported to be the most important for men, is only the second (E2) of 2 Estrogen hormones that men carry so there could be some overlapping effects from the other 2 as well.

*However* I recently had a blood test where my total T was almost at the highest level in the range and my Estradiol was just 1 point from the highest level in the range but my Free T was very good and my BPH is basically non-existent. So, that kind of throws my theory out the window! There are some other ingredients in the DIM I take that could be having a beneficial effect.

All I worry about is these damn companies that all of a sudden stop making something that really works for me. :mad:

Thanks for the reply AZMan. I have taken saw palmetto for years for mild BPH that I have also had for probably 10 years. I am 63 now. I have just started to read about DIM a couple of weeks ago and have ordered Source Naturals DIM - 100 mg - to take with my saw palmetto. The BPH has not gotten worse, but it is no better either. I have read that DIM can improve the symptoms of BPH and thought I would give it a try. I also started on Androgel 4 days ago and I thought I would take the DIM to prevent conversion to E2. I also take DHEA, with my doctor's approval. The more that I read, the more I realize that balancing hormones is a real tricky act. Not to mention that there is so much controversy about what the proper levels of what each hormone should be.

I wish you could post the studies. You might be able to but I would ask the moderator if you can post the link. Some links are allowed.

Anyway, this goes beyond conventional thinking that low T is what causes the bone loss. Also the thought now is the aggressive prostate cancers are due to high E2, not due to testosterone. So there is a big risk if true on high E2. To me this makes perfect sense. Young men with high T (relatively) and low E2, do not get prostate cancer or BPH. Old men, with lower T and higher E2 get both.

Young men with high T (relatively) and low E2, do not get prostate cancer or BPH. Old men, with lower T and higher E2 get both.

HF, what about men with high T and high E2?

The Androgel report was a 2004 report in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism by Christina Wang, et al. I did not save the link, as I downloaded the entire pdf version of the report. The second study was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000 and was titled "Association of Hypogonadism and Estradiol Levels with Bone Mineral Density in Elderly Men from the Framingham Study".

I only brought these conclusions up for information and discussion, as I still intend to try to keep my E2 levels low with DIM because of all of the published bad effects of E2 in men (and women for that matter), such as the prostate cancer link. I also have mild BPH and I have read that some men's symptoms improved with taking DIM. The first report is very interesting, as it was a 3 year study and studied the effects of Androgel administration at 5, 7.5 and 10 gm on T, DHT, E2, SHBG, FSH and LH levels, sexual desire and performance, mood, lean and fat body mass, arm and leg strength, bone turnover markers and bone mass, HGB, HCT, lipid profile and PSA. It was very comprehensive.

I just found another study, a 1999 Polish study of 236 males, aged 22-67. The study of men in Wroclaw, Poland tried to correlate bone mineral content (BMC) in various areas of the body with T, DHEAS and E2. They found no correlation with T, a significant correlation with DHEAS in some areas and a weaker correlation with E2 at all areas. Their conclusion was that DHEAS seems to heve the best correlation to BMC. Again, however, the finding was that there was no correlation of T and BMC. I am supplementing with DHEA and my level was a good level for a 25 year old man (450 mcg/dl) when tested last month.

The Androgel report was a 2004 report in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism by Christina Wang, et al. I did not save the link, as I downloaded the entire pdf version of the report. The second study was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2000 and was titled "Association of Hypogonadism and Estradiol Levels with Bone Mineral Density in Elderly Men from the Framingham Study".

I only brought these conclusions up for information and discussion, as I still intend to try to keep my E2 levels low with DIM because of all of the published bad effects of E2 in men (and women for that matter), such as the prostate cancer link. I also have mild BPH and I have read that some men's symptoms improved with taking DIM. The first report is very interesting, as it was a 3 year study and studied the effects of Androgel administration at 5, 7.5 and 10 gm on T, DHT, E2, SHBG, FSH and LH levels, sexual desire and performance, mood, lean and fat body mass, arm and leg strength, bone turnover markers and bone mass, HGB, HCT, lipid profile and PSA. It was very comprehensive.

whytry,
thanks a lot for these studies. Very enlightening stuff. I stopped taking Androgel due to marked increase in BPH, acne (that has taken some time to clear up) and the fact that, facing downsizing layoff, I did not want to get stuck on a treatment that I could not afford.

Nevertheless, it looks like there is a lot in this study that I could benefit from reading. thanks!:)

I just found another study, a 1999 Polish study of 236 males, aged 22-67. The study of men in Wroclaw, Poland tried to correlate bone mineral content (BMC) in various areas of the body with T, DHEAS and E2. They found no correlation with T, a significant correlation with DHEAS in some areas and a weaker correlation with E2 at all areas. Their conclusion was that DHEAS seems to heve the best correlation to BMC. Again, however, the finding was that there was no correlation of T and BMC. I am supplementing with DHEA and my level was a good level for a 25 year old man (450 mcg/dl) when tested last month.

When I could afford to see an anti-aging doc, he advised a DHEA supplement. I have always seen a negative effect on BPH with it. :(

When I could afford to see an anti-aging doc, he advised a DHEA supplement. I have always seen a negative effect on BPH with it. :(

I can understand how that would happen, as the DHEA will convert to T, estrone and E2. From what I have read, the DIM should prevent the conversion to E2. Were you also taking the DIM back when you were taking the DHEA? I do know that after I stated to take DHEA 5 months ago that my mood and sexual desire improved. My wife also noticed this. The effects got better as I slowly increased the dose each month. She told me that if my sex drive got any higher that she was going to hide my DHEA. ;) She also takes it with some small increase in sex drive.

I can understand how that would happen, as the DHEA will convert to T, estrone and E2. From what I have read, the DIM should prevent the conversion to E2. Were you also taking the DIM back when you were taking the DHEA? I do know that after I stated to take DHEA 5 months ago that my mood and sexual desire improved. My wife also noticed this. The effects got better as I slowly increased the dose each month. She told me that if my sex drive got any higher that she was going to hide my DHEA. ;) She also takes it with some small increase in sex drive.

I think I was getting a little DIM when taking Paravol. That is what qued me in to rearching more and eventually settling on Allergy Research Dim Palmetto. But my E2 level went up to almost max when taking 1/2 dose. (I have to be honest here and admit that I was just a week or 2 off of Semenax that may have caused the enormous jump in total T from approx. 600 to mid 700's as well as the jump in E2). After I received the test results I increased to the recommended DIm Palmetto and will re-test both T's and E2 after I finish this bottle (did not re-start Semenax). If down, I will re-consider DHEA. What DHEA do you take?

I started using Natrol brand DHEA 25 mg tabs. I started with 1/2 of a tab and raised it by 1/2 tab each month until I got to 2 tabs - 1 morning and 1 evening. I then added 1 spray of Nature's Plus DHEA sublingual micronized spray - 1 spray in the morning. The spray is supposed to have at least 90% absorption, whereas the tabs and capsules are supposed to have between 25% and 50% absorption. This is according to articles by doctors who use DHEA treatment, so it is not just a marketing point. After using the combination for 2 weeks, I had my DHEAS and T tested and my DHEAS was at 450 mcg/dl and T was at 304. This is about the level of DHEA that is considered the middle of the excellent range and that what a 25 year old would have. I have now settled on 1 spray in the morning and 1 Natrol tab at dinner, as I don't want the DHEAS to get too high. I will have it retested in about 2 months.

The sublingual spray seemed to make the most significant difference in mood when I added it. My wife commented on it after I had been on it for the 2 weeks - that I seemed to be much happier for the past week or more. When the doc got the results, he told me to stop the DHEA and start Androgel because he said that my DHEAS was too high, as the normal level for a man in his 60s was 25 to 95. I was on vacation at the time and stopped all DHEA and in 3 days my mood was really low and I had lost almost all desire for sex. I made copies of some articles when we got back and gave them to my doc and his nurse called the next day and told me to restart the DHEA. It took about 4 days, but both mood and sex drive came back. My wife has observed all of this also.

I started using Natrol brand DHEA 25 mg tabs. I started with 1/2 of a tab and raised it by 1/2 tab each month until I got to 2 tabs - 1 morning and 1 evening. I then added 1 spray of Nature's Plus DHEA sublingual micronized spray - 1 spray in the morning. The spray is supposed to have at least 90% absorption, whereas the tabs and capsules are supposed to have between 25% and 50% absorption. This is according to articles by doctors who use DHEA treatment, so it is not just a marketing point. After using the combination for 2 weeks, I had my DHEAS and T tested and my DHEAS was at 450 mcg/dl and T was at 304. This is about the level of DHEA that is considered the middle of the excellent range and that what a 25 year old would have. I have now settled on 1 spray in the morning and 1 Natrol tab at dinner, as I don't want the DHEAS to get too high. I will have it retested in about 2 months.

The sublingual spray seemed to make the most significant difference in mood when I added it. My wife commented on it after I had been on it for the 2 weeks - that I seemed to be much happier for the past week or more. When the doc got the results, he told me to stop the DHEA and start Androgel because he said that my DHEAS was too high, as the normal level for a man in his 60s was 25 to 95. I was on vacation at the time and stopped all DHEA and in 3 days my mood was really low and I had lost almost all desire for sex. I made copies of some articles when we got back and gave them to my doc and his nurse called the next day and told me to restart the DHEA. It took about 4 days, but both mood and sex drive came back. My wife has observed all of this also.

I wonder if the sublingual is less prone to converting to DHT.
Interesting that it works so fast! How does it affect your sleep?

It doesn't seem to have changed my sleep pattern at all - either for the better or worse. I have always had a problem getting more than about 6-1/2 hours of sleep a night. Since I am retired now, I sometimes supplement that with a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I do feel like a need more sleep, but I can't get back to sleep. This has been the same before I started to take DHEA and even before I started having signs of low T a little over a year ago. I do sleep soundly for the 6-1/2 hours, sometimes getting up once to pee if I drink too much late the night before. However, when I wake up to pee after 6 hours of sleep then I cannot get back to sleep, as I am pretty much wide awake. Sometimes I do sleep for 8 or more hours, but it is rare, like once every week or 2.

It doesn't seem to have changed my sleep pattern at all - either for the better or worse. I have always had a problem getting more than about 6-1/2 hours of sleep a night. Since I am retired now, I sometimes supplement that with a 1 hour nap in the afternoon. I do feel like a need more sleep, but I can't get back to sleep. This has been the same before I started to take DHEA and even before I started having signs of low T a little over a year ago. I do sleep soundly for the 6-1/2 hours, sometimes getting up once to pee if I drink too much late the night before. However, when I wake up to pee after 6 hours of sleep then I cannot get back to sleep, as I am pretty much wide awake. Sometimes I do sleep for 8 or more hours, but it is rare, like once every week or 2.

Ditto here!
But just since increasing my DIM dose; only 6-6 1/2. that after 7-7 1/2 for as long as I can remember.
If I still feel tired after I pee I just crawl back into bed and can usually get back to sleep in a few minutes and sleep at least another hour. Now, if I could just shut up those stinking mourning doves that start in at the crack of dawn!!!! :mad:

Ditto here!
But just since increasing my DIM dose; only 6-6 1/2. that after 7-7 1/2 for as long as I can remember.
If I still feel tired after I pee I just crawl back into bed and can usually get back to sleep in a few minutes and sleep at least another hour. Now, if I could just shut up those stinking mourning doves that start in at the crack of dawn!!!! :mad:

How many mg of DIM were you taking before and after you increased the dose?

I just did some searching and have found that there seems to be a link between E2 and the amount of REM sleep in women. More E2 results in more REM sleep. There don't seem to be any studies on men though.

Sleep apnea has been linked to low T in men though.

AZ,
I think in general the only men that would have both high T and high E2 would be those on replacement. Becuase, high E2 would more than likley lower T levels. Dr Shippen has told me that T actually moderates cells in the prostate whereas E2 aggravates them. I don't know which would have the more powerful effect but my guess would be E2 as it is 1000 times stronger than estrogen or so I have read. There are many men on other boards you may participate in that think 30 years from now all men will be on arrimidex (or something similar) to moderate E2 and prevent prostate probelms.

How many mg of DIM were you taking before and after you increased the dose?

This has Bioresponse DIM (a patented diindolylmethane complex) starch, DIM (25% minimum), Vitamin e succinate, phosphotydlcholine (soy), silica.

300mg for 2 that I take now. I was taking 1.

I hate these proprietary blends. You really don't know what you are getting. Based on what I was taking in the Paravol that provided such good results (another proprietary blend!!), I calculated it contained 100-150 mg so that is why I started with only 1 Allergy Research DIM Palmetto. It also has other well known pro-Prostate ingredients:
Zinc citrate
Pumpkin Seed Oil
Stinging Nettle Root
Beta Sitosterol
Lycopene

If I could narrow down truly effective results from just the DIM, I would only take it.
:)

AZ,
I think in general the only men that would have both high T and high E2 would be those on replacement. Becuase, high E2 would more than likley lower T levels. Dr Shippen has told me that T actually moderates cells in the prostate whereas E2 aggravates them. I don't know which would have the more powerful effect but my guess would be E2 as it is 1000 times stronger than estrogen or so I have read. There are many men on other boards you may participate in that think 30 years from now all men will be on arrimidex (or something similar) to moderate E2 and prevent prostate probelms.

So, you don't think my brief stint on Semenax would have caused the rise in both?

I wonder what Dr. Shippen means by "moderate?"

Interesting comment about the arimidex. I wonder if that is because they feel our environment is filled with E2 chemicals, ingredients, etc. I will have to hunt them down.
:)

1/2 Armidex tablet 2 or 3 time a week stops T conversion to E2.

DIM helps to remove the existing E2.

Many males make too much E2 directly, not just by T conversion.

I feel best when the T:E2 ratio is 30:1 or better. 50:1 is Great.

1/2 Armidex tablet 2 or 3 time a week stops T conversion to E2.

DIM helps to remove the existing E2.

Many males make too much E2 directly, not just by T conversion.

I feel best when the T:E2 ratio is 30:1 or better. 50:1 is Great.

Interesting.
Are you talking about Total T?
How about Clomid instead of Armidex?

Clomid does not reduce E2, it only blocks it from binding to the receptors in the hypothalmus....which can trick the hypothalmus into thinking T is high enough. This is because E2 is similar to T and can bind to the same receptors meant for T.

I think JinL is talking about total T in ng/dl divided by E2 in pg/ml. So for example a good ratio would be total T of 750 with E2 of 25 (30 to 1).

mine is 16:1 confirming once again that E2 is at the root of my problems.Going back in my records I see 15:1 and the best it has ever been is 28:1.

I am gong to test again to see if taking a full dose of DIM has removed some of the E2.

Estradiol results are in after only 3 days! I am thinking that the DIM really works.

I had this test done because my Estradiol was borderline high on May 7 and I had been taking a DIM supplement but only at half strength. I took it at full strength for a month before this test:

Testosterone 801 (241-827) It was 753 in May! Could be that I had this 2 hours earlier this time at 7:30 AM. But still, without any other supps, this is damn good. If my back was good enough to start weight training I would probably put muscle on real fast.

Free T 17.1 (7.2-24.0) It was 15.3 in May.

Estradiol 36 (<54) it dropped 11 pg/ml since May.

LH 4.6 (1.5-9.3) Was only 3.0 in May. Means the boys are still kicking out the T signal to the Hypothalamus!

Some here have said that the Testosterone to Estradiol ratio, in order to produce the proper level of libido in men, should be 30:1. Mine jumped from 16:1 to 22:1.

I am thinking that this DIM really works. :)

Azman, are you on any kind of trt?

Azman, are you on any kind of trt?

No.
But Monday I had some facial numbing, dizziness and nausea and am scheduled for a Brain Scan MRI monday (birthday) :mad: , Ultrasound and CT scan. There may be something going on in the Pituatary as my T has jumped 300 in 4 years. I don't know if that can cause a jump. I thought it only caused lower T but HayFarmer can probably answer that. All I have used is the DIM I speak of here and some Vitex cycles, 3 on, 4 off but don't take it regularly.

I never heard of a pit tumor increasing T but I suppose it is possible. Good luck on the MRI. Doesn't sound like much of a birthday present but hey maybe they will find something easy to fix that will get you squared away.

Dr. Shippen suggests that E2 levels in men should be higher than 20 and lower than about 50 or 60. He says E2 is cardio-protective but this disappears at levels below about 20.

I am on Clomid to raise T levels and find 25 mg twice a week raises T to about 500 and E2 stays about 20. When I increase Clomid to 25 mg 3 times a week T goes to 700 but E2 goes to 50 and I feel lousy.

I never heard of a pit tumor increasing T but I suppose it is possible. Good luck on the MRI. Doesn't sound like much of a birthday present but hey maybe they will find something easy to fix that will get you squared away.

MRI was normal except for "very mild paranasal sinus mucosal thickening."

A BioResponse DIM (the ingredient in the Allegy Research Group DIM Palmetto) doctor, in response to my questions about DIM Palmetto increasing Estradiol in addition to giving me a huge increase in Total T and a Free T reading right in the middle, is in contact with me. After I send the historical blood test results along with a list of my other supplements, Rx's, etc., when he gets back to me I will post here.

A Allergy Research Group doctor, in response to my questions about DIM Palmetto increasing Estradiol in addition to giving me a huge increase in Total T and a Free T reading right in the middle, is in contact with me. After I send the historical blood test results along with a list of my other supplements, Rx's, etc., when he gets back to me I will post here.

AZMan, did you mean to say "DIM Palmetto increasing Estradiol" or did you mean decreasing?

AZMan, did you mean to say "DIM Palmetto increasing Estradiol" or did you mean decreasing?

whytry,
initially, when I was taking only 1 softgel per day (1/2 recommended dose), it actually raised my Estradiol from its baseline before I started taking the DIM Palmetto. My Estradiol went up from 24 to 47 (range <54). That is why I freaked out. I was close borderline HIGH on Estradiol for men! And my libido being in the toilet was indicative of what I have read here and elsewhere concerning high E2 levels. It is a balancing act.

One month after starting the full recommended dose, it went down to 36. Still higher than my baseline but down nevertheless.

So, I sent all these results and others to the doctor who responded from BioResponse DIM (the ingredient in the Allergy Research Group DIM Palmetto). I will report back what he says but it may take a while for them to research.

I corrected my earlier messsge. I am communicating with the doctor associated with the actual BioResponse DIM that is included in the Allergy Research Group product called DIM Palmetto. Sorry if there was any confusion.

AZMan, thanks for the clarification. You probably explained this at one time or another, but I have read so many specifics and forgotten most that I didn't remember your entire story. Again, thanks. I would love to know why that E2 increase happened also. It doesn't seem right. I take DIM and saw palmetto separately. I'm going to ask my doctor to test my E2 next month when I'm due for my T and DHEAS checks.

AZMan, thanks for the clarification. You probably explained this at one time or another, but I have read so many specifics and forgotten most that I didn't remember your entire story. Again, thanks. I would love to know why that E2 increase happened also. It doesn't seem right. I take DIM and saw palmetto separately. I'm going to ask my doctor to test my E2 next month when I'm due for my T and DHEAS checks.

I was on Androgel only 1 month and it raised my Total T about 160 but free and E2 stayed about the same. However, I was on only 1/2 of the recommended starting dose. I gained acne, some agression and I gained an aversion to the alcohol-like smell.

I look forward to hearing your next results and I will post again when I hear from the BioResponse folks.
:)

I got my blood test 9 days ago - Total T, free T and E2. I got a card in the mail 5 days later that said "normal". Well, that's a lot of help. The nurse probably looked at the lab results and never even showed them to the doctor since the results were in the "normal" renge. I generated a chart on Thursday and took it over to the doctor's office for the nurse to fill out, listing the actual results and the ranges. I told them that I will pick it up tomorrow. Hopefully, it will be there. Otherwise I will have to make an appointment with the doctor. He is one of 6 doctors in the office and probably the busiest one. He hasn't taken new patients for years. It takes 2 to 3 weeks to get in to see him and he is internal medicine and a rheumatology specialist. The doctors are so busy any more that I don't think that they even see stuff like this unless it is outside the "normal" range. The nurse probably knows nothing about real levels.