my 73 y/o father in law with alt. for 2 years with copd refuses to help himself.....he will not hold his urinal, shave, or bath. Says he can't but he can turn tv, put cd in players feed himself and throws his oxygen hose across the room. my mother in law 71 is at her wits end. She took him out of the nh 3months ago , we got her a sit and stand and that is how she copes with him (he is bed ridden no balance when standing). She fuses to pay for help...home health helps with bathing and they give her 3 hrs of leave. My husband ,his brother are the only children. His brother broke his foot and can't help her, my husband works 65 hrs a week , I am at home but have lupus, but i get the calls to help her and it is everyday. She crys when she calls and i can't come.

Is it that he really can't or won't . He wants to pee every dew mintues or be put on the potty chair. he is taken namenda,risperderal, valium.........
Maybe we need the valiums Ha

Why did she take him out of the NH? If anyone needs one, it is this man. All I can suggest is that you have a heart to heart with your mother in law. She cannot give the care to him that he needs; and for her own sanity and you and the family, it would be best.

Yes he may fight it...but your mom has to realize his mind is not what it was 30 years ago.

It would be best if he got the help in a place that would answer his needs...if the scenario changes and she becomes ill or hospitalized, then who takes care of him? Maybe that's something she should consider.

Good luck, I know it's very difficult.

I know a lady who did exactly the same thing. Pulled her husband out of a NH because of:

GUILT.

Fortunately, she had the wisdom within a few weeks to admit she would die of stress before he did, and with a heavy heart, placed him back in the nursing home. She was VERY lucky they still had a spot left.

There is absolutely NOTHING you can do until she see's the light. There is absolutely NOTHING you can do until a crisis occurs. This woman is proud and guilty at the same time.

However: you could warn her that she could be charged with Elder Abuse/Neglect if the authorities even get a 'whiff' of her not coping. If there is anything wrong with your FIL other than his chronic diseases, she could be in huge amounts of trouble.

And: in the logical sense: it's only a matter of time before he has a fall.

And now a word to you: Your expecting a man with Alzheimers to behave logically. They can't. He doesn't do these behaviours on purpose, he's not doing it to get a kick out of it, he simply cant help himself. He's sorta on 'auto pilot' so he can do things without being asked (no choices to pick from) but when asked to do things, there are toooooo many choices and therefore says he can't.

COPD is a whole other different kettle of fish. COPD patients are RENOWNED to have a crabby "I need it now" attitude, and are demanding, pushy yet needy at the same time. couple with with Alzheimers, and I for one would jump off the nearest bridge. (I looked after my in-laws .. one with Alz. one with COPD ..... I DIDN'T cope but if they had have been one and the same person ...... sheesh .....THAT was hard enough with them together)

Sorry to be sounding harsh, but lesson's learned early are lesson's learned well.

Gemini is right - he isn't 'refusing' to do things, he cannot do them! He may know how to put in a CD (maybe tomorrow he will have forgotten) but he really truly does not know how to do those other thngs. Alzheimers has taken away his memory. He would love to cooperate and does not want to annoy his wife or you. But he CAN'T!

She has to get him right back into a nursing home, the sooner the better. It is the ONLY thing to do, and it was a huge mistake to take him out. No matter what he said, she has to be the decision maker now, he can't!

Good luck

Martha

my mom has alzheimers and my dad is the primary caregiver and then me.... I am not sure how I will handle it when the time comes to place my mom. My dad will be totally lost. you have gotten some good advice and I know that it will be hard to convince your mom but I pray that all goes well and you dad does not hurt himselve in the meantime...

At some point it will become obvious that your Mom can not care for you Dad as he should be cared for. When your Mom is truly at her wits end she will change her mind and if not you will change it for her. As Martha told me, what seems like so long ago, you will find placement when the caregiver is ready. It is not all the horror that it is made out to be. There are some wonderful facilities that can actually do a better job then you can. My family is living proof of that!!! Are you sure it's safe for your Mom to be handling your father that can not stand? Perhaps when she cries you might want to suggest his need for more care than she can furnish. At some point you may have to interven for both their safety and well being. Good question... what happens when your Mom ends up hospitalized?

As for you Dad intentionally doing things.... he's not. There is no rhyme nor reason to what they remember how to do and what they forget during the mid stages of the disease. Mom can still remember how to do laundry but not how to put a CD in the player. She can figure out how to get to the dinning room on time but not how to get to an activity across the hall. My Dad still shaves but even if he gets in the shower he's at a loss about what to do when he's there. He manages his hearing aids but puts the tv control on the phone base. It is not their choice what they can and cannot do. It is the diseases choice.

but he does control what he can and can't do at some point. he will hold the urinal for nurse or bath person but if they are not there ,he won't. i know that everyone is different with this diease and he has always been very controlling, he likes that he can make us do the personal stuff for him. she will not let him go a day without being shaved or dirty so he knows that she will go ahead and do it if he refuses. She has a sit and stand lift like the nursing home use to help with lifting it is the only way for her to handle him.


For the pt therpist ...he will scoot to the edge of the chair and help him lift him up... stand alone for a few min. and walk un aided a few steps. when we go to walk him he's dead weight ..... i was a nurse, my daughter is a nurse and one is a PA....


So my question is this
Would an alt. patient know that he couldn't do something and be able to tell you that you will have to do that for me and give you direction on how to shave him or hold the urinal. I realize that sometimes it is a can or can't situation most patients i have dealt with, couldn't or wouldn't be able to tell you i can't do that and explain the how too directions because they wouldn't realize they weren't doing it.
or i am i wrong.

Sometimes the Alzheimer patient reacts very differently to 'family' vs 'outsiders'. He may truly be more cooperative with a stranger, because he wants to impress them with how he can do things for himself. That is a desperate attempt to seem more lucid than he really is, and it probably won't last long. Chances are he will soon forget to be on his best behavior and act the same towards everyone. It may very well be stubbornness and ornery behavior, if that is how he always was, or it may be a new twist brought on by the disease. I wish I had an answer or a way for your mother to deal with it, but in my opinion, such patients really need to be in a facility. Especially when the chief caregiver is handicapped herself. Good luck!

Martha

My dad refuses to take a shower. He will tell you he already did it or doesn't want to do it. They all have their practiced phrases when they can't do something. If you coax him in the shower he will stand under the water until you hand him soap, shampoo, or a rag. He will tell you that he needs to wash his hair first but can't seem to get the shampoo and do it. He has trouble walking but will tell you that he can run a race, he just doesn't want to. He might shave with an electric razor that has no charge, or he might tell you that he had done it when he hasn't, or he might just tell you he doesn't want to and it's none of your business. Yet he can tell you exactly how to shave. Most of the time Dad is pleasant and cooperative but sometimes he is a real bugger.

Mom on the other hand is the one that "shows off" for company. She puts on her best behavior and falls apart afterwards. It is so very difficult for her to cope with the strange world around her. If she gets overwhelmed she will go to the couch or her bed and tell you she is sick. It is her escape. Mom is normally angry and depressed but sometimes she can be a sweet heart.

Some days are better than others and some times they are more aware than others. This is just how it is. None of this is intentional. It is the strange ways they deal with their world which is so unlike what we see. They are doing the best they can with their limited cognition coupled with their personality.

Have you had a long heart to heart with your Mom about the level of care your Dad needs and her abilities? Is there somewhere they could move in together that she would have help available on a 24/7 basis. I fear you are not going to change your Dad's habits. It sounds like your Mom is overwhelmed as are you. How much longer can you give them what they want instead of what they need?

Love, deb

I have to say that before I found you all here all I heard about AZ patients were sweet calm people with no memory...Hah!
Even the TV commercials..(especially Aricept ones) show the patient as happy and content..again I say, Hah!
I would hear stories about these calm, contented patients and think why can't I have one of those!
But with your stories I hear reality.
My mom was always the life of the party and now she is like your mom, Deb, angry and depressed..and God knows she has reason to be but it is so wearing on the rest of us.
I talked to her for a split second yesterday and then got off the phone before she started the complaints about her meds and how they must think she is stupid since they have to hand them to her.

My mom is the opposite in that she thinks she can do it all herself...much like a toddler...I can do it!

I am probably responding to several different threads in one here but sometimes they do tend to run together in my mind so forgive me for rambling all over the place.

Talking about peaks and valleys. What surprised me just recently is that after an especially high peak came such a low valley. It does whip you around doesn't it.

I was going to say more but forgot what it was...uh oh...does that mean I have it too??...don't we all think that when we forget things!!

Meg

Don't you just love the Aricept commercial with the two daughters that obviouslyl are joined in caring for the loving sweet Dad who is peacefully playing a game. What a perfect picture of hope. I am sure there are some of those out there but it's definitely not true in so many cases. What I see is the sisters bickering and the loved one acting out.

Speaking of Aricept. Mom and Dad's doctor has mentioned that we might start thinking about taking them both off the Aricept and Namenda. Because of Dad's type of Dementia (Vascular) and the severity of Mom's ALZ she doesn't think it is having positive effects. Not that it is having negative effects that we recognize but they are both outside or beyond it's beneficial stage. It was obvious the way she tiptoed around the issue. Three of the four daughters tend to agree. We are not sure where the other sister stands. Just one more hard decision to be made.....

Love, Deb

Deb,

I took Mom off of Aricept and Namenda, and Dad. The doctor felt that it wasn't doing any significant good for Mom so we stopped both of them. I was very tight with Mom's nurses, they were more like family, and we didn't see any major changes in her behavior or in the speed of her decline when we removed them.

We had dad on Aricept for awhile, We took him off of it. I don't think that it was doing any good with the vascular dementia. and his AAA. WE also took him off of his colesterol medicine. He had a great doctor that said, at this age why worry about that also?

Good luck. I couldn't see any difference in either parent after removing the drugs.....

It's good to hear that info from those of you with experience. I don't know when or if her neurologist will make that same suggestion to us someday but if so, I will remember what was said here. I would think the first reaction would be that OH NO they will get worse.

And I fully understand taking them off other meds eventually too. At what point do we stop keeping their body healthy as the mind crumbles.

At the present, mom is getting shots of Procrit every other week. It helps to build her red blood cells...the doctor said if her numbers fall too low it would be bad for her heart.

Meg

I have been ranting and raving against the Dementia Pill ads for years, since around 2004. In our experience they did no good whatsoever. It galled me to think that the advertisers show a sweet genlte elderly man or woman happily doing something that TAKES THOUGHT! As if that actor ever had AD.

No way. They are paid actors. Their so called children or spouses are actors too. It's all known as ''sell it any way you can." Sad but true. Look how many drugs are taken off the market after years of gullible patients and doctors -- look at Estrogen, the 'fountain of youth.' Yes, and heart attacks, and osteoporosis, along with a few more years of less wrinkly skin. I am glad I took the wrinkly skin - and a few hot flashes - and skipped the estrogen and the heart attacks. I may not be alive today if I hadn't been generally skeptical of all prescribed drugs--- most especially those which have to be sold on TV. If they are sooo good, why do they need advertising? Doctors would be falling all over themselves to get you on them ...

Martha

Well. Here is a subject I haven't blogged about, but is near and dear to my heart...overmedication!

Dad is 82. Stage 5-6 of dementia...and various doctors (cardiologist, gp, urologist, etc) had him on: Caduet, Metroprolol, Nitro...just a HOST of meds. One by one, and with gp permission, I took him off them. The Caduet was the lowest possible dose, as was the metrolprolol, but made his blood pressure just tank. The nitro? He hasn't had angina in years. Lipitor? 10mg? Holy smoke, I take 40mg, forgoodnesssake. No point in 10mg at dad's age. Aricept? Made him nauseated, and it's all I can do to get him to eat now, let alone with a tummy upset. Off. Naminda? Made him dizzy.

Bottom line? Nothing was the "cure all", nothing helped, and everything just exaserbated his underlying problems.

His meds now? 1 325 aspirin a day, and stool softener. That's it. And you know what difference it made? Zero. Zip. Nada. - except he feels BETTER!!!!!

Use the good judgement inate within you, and if the medicine seems to be hurting instead of helping....

...deb

I totally agree about the med advertisements on tv.... they are such a scam..... and the doctors DO get major kick backs for prescribing the med of the month! Martha, I spent a year on HRT for massive hot flashes but as soon as I heard the breaking news I came off of them. It was nice not to have the hot flashes but with the history of estrogen receiptor breast cancer in my family I will take the hot flashes anyway. There is one I heard recently that has a side effect of Lymphoma???

As for Mom and Dad, they have both already been taken off their cholesterol medication. It has already been determined that they are not going to die young!! So why give them medication that may or may not prevent something in the future. Even on Zocore every Dad's vascular system is clogged up so who knows what good it ever did.

I have already made up my mind that both of my parents needed to come off the dementia drugs. I think, at least in Mom and Dad's case, we are just pouring money into pharmaceutical pockets for false hope. It's not designed for vascular dementia and I was told by the research doctor that is studying the effects of these drugs that he didn't think it would do much of any good. Mom and Dad ended up on it because it was the ONLY hope the medical community could offer. Even my sister that is a nurse agrees. Now to find out what the last sister's thoughts are.....

Love, deb