Don't know if anyone else saw this tonight but I found it very interesting. The part that blew me away was the fact that drs. didn't think up this high carb. diet at all, but lawyers???? This is the third show I have seen this week downing the high carb low fat therory, so just might be something to it. Naturally it means good fats and not those trans. fats, but I do agree with the laying off of high carb. thing for sure. We were told years ago to lay off meats and eat more carbs. and things have gotten worse instead of better, so I tossed that therory out. No I don't intend to eat nothing but fatty foods, but I sure am going to limit those carbs. even more then I have in the past. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif

http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif JJ

[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 07-22-2002).]

Thanks for the post JJ. I didn't see the show, but several at the protein power board (eatprotein) said that it was very positive towards the lower carb diet.

One thing I saw with that link that I disagree with is that they are still classifying saturated animal fats in the bad fat category along with hydrogented vegetable oils. This is wrong in my opinion which is based on quite a bit of research and my experience with eating this way for several years. The case against natural saturated fats like those found in meat, eggs, and butter is weak at best, downright fraudulent at worst. Natural saturated fats have many health benefits, and at worst are neutral with regards to heart disease. But what is a saturated fat? Most fats in their natural form are a mix of saturated, monounsaturated, and polyunsaturated fats. Even lard, which most would consider saturated fat, is only 42% saturated, but is 47% monounsaturated - the same mono fat found in olive oil - one of the so called good fats.

Oh well, progress is being made at least. The tide is slowly turning away from the low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet as a healthy regimen. Hopefully the tide will be turned in time to stem this epidemic of obesity, Type II diabetes, and heart disease that we are in.

Alan

Well I was totally shocked when they had said that drs. didn't design this low fat high carb. diet but lawyers did, man that floored me!

I had seen on our local evening news a promotion about the story so made sure I caught it, but I usually watch 20/20 every week anyway. I know it was geared mostly for weight problems, but they did say they that
everyone was shocked to see people's cholesterol didn't
shoot off the walls like they would have expected.

I know I have been doing alot of reading up on this high carb. thing especially with hubby and his trig. problem, so anytime I can learn something new to help I
am more then glad to listen to both sides, but this sure did make alot of sense to me. I know the last visit with hubby's cardiologist I asked quite a few questions, especially about the carb. thing, and he said I was right, he has got to cut back even further.
Oh well, guess at any age U can learn something new.
Back to the good ole days of steaks etc. more then 2 or 3 times a week. Have a wonderful weekend, and stay cool folks. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif JJ

Arkie & JJ..Have you read my #s in my post of7-11-02? It's in the NY times post started by smag16 on 7-6-02

I had to go looking for your post, but yup now I remember it, GREAT going!! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif Like I posted, I have been trying the last few months to do a lower carb. diet and get hubby to get the heck away from his love of bread too. We tried the so called low fat thing and it sure didn't get us anywhere, so giving this a shot.
I'm not totally off of carbs., sorry, but do have to have some, old habits die hard! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif I'll let ya know how it goes in a few weeks as I am due for blood work.
Keep up your WOE and congrats. on your good numbers.
Hang in there, it does get better!! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif JJ

Here is some more recent news regarding low carbohydrate diets from Duke >>> Quote:

"The study further showed that patients’ cholesterol levels improved by the end of six months -- a finding that was unexpected, according to Westman."

“We were somewhat surprised to find that patients’ blood lipid profiles improved, even though there was much more fat in the diet,” he said. “We had thought the fat in the diet would increase the cholesterol.”

Alan



[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 07-22-2002).]

It was an interesting article.Although there was a few notable items left out in the posts about this article.The first is that this study on the Atkins Diet was funded by Atkins.This is no different than the drug companies funding their studies as so many have complained about on this board.
The next item is and I quote from the article:

“While we’re impressed with the weight loss of this diet, we still are not sure about the safety of it,” Westman said. “More studies need to be done in order to be confident about the long-term safety of this type of diet.”

For example, all participants developed ketonuria, the presence of measurable ketones in urine. The level seen in this study translates to roughly that of a non-dieting person if they didn’t eat for a couple of days, said Westman. “This is a finding that we need to learn more about. The level of ketones present was not terribly high, but we don’t know if this is safe or harmful to one’s health over a long period of time.”

And the last item is:
Because of the intensity of this type of diet program, Westman cautions that “if someone has a medical problem or is taking medications, they should only do this diet under the supervision of a health care provider."

These are quite significant in my opinion.As Paul Harvey would say,"and here is the rest of the story"

to JJ..I am not totaly off carbs. Just cut them dramaticly. I don't think any diet that cuts something out entirely can be good over the long run. This is also not a "high" fat diet. I do not eat any more fats then I did b/4. Keep up the battle. You'll find something that works.

After searching on genetic cholesterol linked with high protein diets, I stumbled upon an archive on the Atkin's site regarding a cholesterol Q & A discussion and found this:

"skullback: I have high cholesterol, but am not overweight - it is most likely a genetic problem. Would a high protein diet still work for a person like me?

Dr. Atkins: It's not so much a high protein diet as the restriction of carbohydrates that will affect cholesterol. In your case you want to have as low a percentage of carbs as is consistent with not losing weight. This may come to about 60-80 grams of nutrient-dense carbohydrates per day, such as vegetables, nuts and seeds and low-glycemic fruits such as berries."

I'm afraid I cannot post the link here, but I did a search on genetic cholesterol on his site.

Seems that what is working for cholesterol reduction is lowering intake or eliminating cooked/processed carbs.



[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 07-22-2002).]

Well I wasn't saying that anyone should follow a high fat diet, as it is also my belief everything in moderation..PERIOD!! I just wanted to point out that for years we were told to go high carb to lower cholesterol and from what I have seen and heard over the last 2 years, I don't think high carbs is the answer at all.

I am not changeing my way of eating, but will definitely watch my carb intake to make sure it is lower then before, and have definitely got to get hubby to lay off that bread, as his trigs. are way too high, plus he is diabetic..type 2. My total amazement was that this so called high carb diet was put into effect by lawyers, not drs. or scientists, now that I find weird. When I have a medical problem I call my dr. NOT my lawyer. Just trying to make a point here folks, not trying to start WW3. Take care. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wave.gif JJ

I got your point, and I just want to add my 2 cents. I have studied nutrition for years, as have many people on this board. I am not giving any recommendations on diet here. BUT! I am aware of the games that those "in power" play with the public. I have read what they say about us being dumb sheep. They incite, and stir up, and steer us down the wrong paths. They make us sicker, and dumber so we will continue to go to doctors, amd become sicker and dumber. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/eek.gif I have read and studied about the unholy trinity...the AMA, the pharmaceutical companies and the FDA. The lawyers dreaming this up doesn't surprise me in the least. There is BIG money in sick people. Just read a John Grisham novel. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wink.gif

BTW, whatever happened to Susan Powter, and her "Stop the Insanity"? I would like to personnally wring her neck, 'cause I followed her diet for awhile and gained tons of weight and felt pitiful. The only way she could eat bagels and tortillas all day was to exercise constantly, which she did.

Originally posted by arkie6:

One thing I saw with that link that I disagree with is that they are still classifying saturated animal fats in the bad fat category along with hydrogented vegetable oils. This is wrong in my opinion which is based on quite a bit of research and my experience with eating this way for several years. The case against natural saturated fats like those found in meat, eggs, and butter is weak at best, downright fraudulent at worst. Natural saturated fats have many health benefits, and at worst are neutral with regards to heart disease. But what is a saturated fat? Most fats in their natural form are a mix of saturated, monounsaturated, and polyunsaturated fats. Even lard, which most would consider saturated fat, is only 42% saturated, but is 47% monounsaturated - the same mono fat found in olive oil - one of the so called good fats.

Oh well, progress is being made at least. The tide is slowly turning away from the low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet as a healthy regimen. Hopefully the tide will be turned in time to stem this epidemic of obesity, Type II diabetes, and heart disease that we are in.

Alanlol...you CANNOT be serious. Hopefully you aren't. If myths like this continue to get perpetuated then we will kill many people and raise the incidence of heart disease to higher and higher levels. It is obvious that you buy into that Atkins fad diet stuff and trust me, when it is all said and done this fad diet will prove, like all the others before it, to be a fraud.

Oh and by the way obesity is NOT caused from carbohydrate intake but rather from lack of physical activity, a steady workout routine, and improper diet. If you believe carbohydrate intake to be a cause of obesity then perhaps you should rethink your position on this subject.

You would be even more amazed if you read about how the high cholesterol and fat scare took place in the first place..

It's all a horrible lie..Millions of people are on dangerous drugs and tasteless diets as a result.

[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 08-06-2002).]

Originally posted by FitForLife2002:
lol...you CANNOT be serious. Hopefully you aren't.

Oh, I was quite serious. You didn't see any smiley faces in my post did you?

If myths like this continue to get perpetuated then we will kill many people and raise the incidence of heart disease to higher and higher levels. It is obvious that you buy into that Atkins fad diet stuff and trust me, when it is all said and done this fad diet will prove, like all the others before it, to be a fraud.

Heart disease has been rising proportionally as the consumption of natural saturated fats have been declining - don't believe me? Just go to the USDA website on food consumption patterns. What has been increasing in the American diet right along with heart disease has been the consumption of highly processed foods including sugars, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils, and partially hydrogentated vegetable oils - these are the foods behind the current epidemics of obesity, Type II diabetes, and heart disease, not the red meat, eggs, and full-fat dairy products that people have been avoiding like the plaque for the past 20 years all the while getting fatter and sicker.

Dr. Atkins quite successful and healthy low carbohydrate diet came to be around 1970. The quite unsuccessful low-fat dietary recommendations from our government and various quasi-health authorities came to be around 1978. The low-fat high-carbohydrate diet is good for business but it's bad for health. Dr. Atkins low carbohydrate diet (and Protein Power by Dr. Eades) closely resembles the diet that our Paleolithic ancestors ate approximately 2 million years ago. If Dr. Atkins diet is a fad, then it is a 2 million year old fad. If any current dietary regimen other than all of those scam diet pills falls within the realm of fad, it would have to be the low-fat diet since it is relatively new and not likely to last once people wise up.

Alan



[This message has been edited by arkie6 (edited 08-07-2002).]

Originally posted by FitForLife2002:
Oh and by the way obesity is NOT caused from carbohydrate intake but rather from lack of physical activity, a steady workout routine, and improper diet. If you believe carbohydrate intake to be a cause of obesity then perhaps you should rethink your position on this subject.

I do say and firmly believe that carbohydrates, in particular the sugars and highly refined carbohydrates, are the primary causal factor behind the high rates of obesity that we are currently experiencing. While lack of physical acivity definitely plays a part in it, diet is the major player here. If you don't eat all of those easily absorbed carbohydrates in the first place, then you don't have to do all of those workouts to burn them off before they get converted to fat and stored.

Quick and easy convience foods and highly processed and prepackaged foods that are typically high in carbohydrate are quite detrimental to health and peoples waistlines, much more so than natural saturated fats that get all of the blame.

Alan

Originally posted by all things:
BTW, whatever happened to Susan Powter, and her "Stop the Insanity"? I would like to personnally wring her neck, 'cause I followed her diet for awhile and gained tons of weight and felt pitiful. The only way she could eat bagels and tortillas all day was to exercise constantly, which she did.

I had just done a Google search using the phrase "whatever happened to Susan Powter" and, lo, this page from this bulletin board was one of the very few results. (Check for yourself, lol.) Anyway, I did a bit of research just now, and it sounds like the "Stop the Insanity" woman is doing great. Here's a recent pic:

http://www.susanpowteronline.com/resources/images/susan_188w.jpg

From her website: "Susan Powter is about to do it again - with her new book, The Politics of Stupid, her one-Woman comedy special - a one Woman show with a life changing message - and her revolutionary Direct To Consumer marketing campaign. Taking her energy, authenticity, motivation, inspiration and information directly to millions of Women! Susan Powter is mothering her three sons, running her home and her business, living on an island near Seattle, and on her way to the Moon."

Her web site: http://www.susanpowteronline.com

If you really want to tell her off, LOL, her website lists a phone number to her staff. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif

Finally, here's a link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0972499202/qid=1054450134/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/104-2917942-8657528?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) to her new book (published 2003) on Amazon.

It's now clear that her "eat fat, get fat" ideas were incredibly simplistic since they didn't allow for ANY healthy fats (at least in her initial book published 1994 -- a stance she moderated later) and perhaps even flat-out wrong (given the recent peer-reviewed academic evidence supporting the Atkins diet).

Well, somehow I had envisioned an entirely different outcome for Susan. I pictured her broke, fat again (from all those fat-free cookies), and miserable. Looks like I was wrong on all counts.

Doc

[This message has been edited by PsychDoc_TN (edited 06-01-2003).]

[This message has been edited by PsychDoc_TN (edited 06-01-2003).]

Originally posted by arkie6:
I do say and firmly believe that carbohydrates, in particular the sugars and highly refined carbohydrates, are the primary causal factor behind the high rates of obesity that we are currently experiencing. While lack of physical acivity definitely plays a part in it, diet is the major player here. If you don't eat all of those easily absorbed carbohydrates in the first place, then you don't have to do all of those workouts to burn them off before they get converted to fat and stored.

Quick and easy convience foods and highly processed and prepackaged foods that are typically high in carbohydrate are quite detrimental to health and peoples waistlines, much more so than natural saturated fats that get all of the blame.

Alan

Alan,

I am not sure that it is possible to be so rigid when examining the causes that underlie heart disease for all people. I think the key is definitely moderation and exercise, even moreso than diet.

I am willing to bet that I can take any "diet" and apply it properly (i.e. in moderation) and maintain a healthy weight and decent lipid profile. I already know that I can take either diet and abuse it to excess such that I develop heart disease and a horrid lipid profile. (I am a walking case study with respect to that.)

Let me give you a typical low (or is that try to avoid all) carb example of my previous type of (post-diabetes diagnosis) meal:

January 26, 2002: Dinner: (All you can eat smoked ribs, beef, pork, chicken at a local BBQ restaurant) 2 plates of smoked pork, 1 plate smoked beef, 2 chicken breasts (smoked), 1 small bowl of BBQ baked beans and 1 cup of cole slaw, diet coke (2 x 24 oz).

January 27, 2002: Dinner: (All you can eat prime rib/crab leg at a local restaurant). 4 Plates of Prime Rib (~8 oz per cut), 3 plates of crab clusters (~10 legs), drawn butter, diet coke (3 x 16 oz), ordered rice pilaf but ate none. Skipped salad.

Eating this "avoid carb diet," the 227 lb me succeeded in having 200+ cholesterol, HDL of 25, and triglycerides that needed meds to keep them <155 mg/dL. Then again, I did keep my HbA1c at <7.2% with this ridiculous game. However, net effect, MI at age 35, two stents, and lesson learned.

Likewise, I bet I could have pulled off the same disasterous effect had I just reached for a bag of Peanut Butter Cups and a banana split--which I actually used to do before I was diagnosed with diabetes.

At times, we tend to simplify things and say its one thing or another, one diet or another. I try not to bash anyone's diet because, quiet simply, I believe all diets can work if one knows how to apply them logically; an integral part of that is moderation of intake with incorporation of exercise.

I know you have been reading and posting here much longer than I have, but having read just about every post in this forum for the past 7 months, the ones that I have seen that show the most remarkable turnaround in lipid profiles are those people who have 1) Gone from sedentary to high level exercise of at least 20 min cardio workout, usually daily, 2) lost weight, 3) control their intake of foods (moderation) regardless of the "diet" they ascribe to.

I don't recall a case where someone has taken an HDL of 25 and lifted it to 70 mg/dL without exercise, using diet alone? Likewise, such an achievement is also probably not possible without eating some saturated fats, and avoidance of trans fats? In actuality, my lipid profile is now better than ever. I also eat more refined carbohydrates and sugars (love candy, low fat ice cream, cobblers) than ever in my life, yet my last two triglyceride measurements were 34 and 31 mg/dL. I would attribute that primarily to exercise and body weight.

Anyway, my only point here is that I truly don't believe its as cut and dry as a carbohydrates being the problem, or fats being the problems (wouldn't the two double quarter pounders with cheese that I used to get be a problem with both fats and carbs?). Its a multi-faceted breakdown, where to me, I would place blame upon our sedentary lifestyles, our eating out mentality, coupled with the availability of low-cost foods and fast foods, which lends itself to overeating.

Ulrich

[This message has been edited by ubernier (edited 06-01-2003).]

did you talk to your doctor about this? I trust my doctor more than tv shows.