CaydenJ
08-14-2008, 10:34 PM
After I was diagnosed as a non-tmjd patient, I was left extremely confused so I did some of my own research. I knew and the doctors knew that there was something wrong with my jaws but the doctors answers were very ambiguous to my concerns. I understand that there's not much that can be said with an hour consult but they proposed classes with muscle relaxing training and denied I had tmj and I wanted and still do want faster results. My spine, since I first felt tmj-like symptoms felt and still does feel very weird especially when I sleep and my posture felt out of balance so I recently came to the conclusion that something was wrong with the base of my skull and how it's coming in contact with my spine. I had my doubts regardless but just feeling my way through these past couple of months came to the realization that it might actually be a possibility, then, just yesterday I came across an explanation of how an imbalanced jaw, skull and spine relationship can mimic tmj symptoms.
I want to go to the chiropractor and saw a previous thread on here about someone going to a chiropractor and wondering how that worked out? My symptoms resembled TMJ symptoms to a T including the distorted/changed facial appearance/spasm but I guess it's not. The jaw being misaligned but secondary to the "head/neck" balance does explain a lot.
I want to go to the chiropractor and saw a previous thread on here about someone going to a chiropractor and wondering how that worked out? My symptoms resembled TMJ symptoms to a T including the distorted/changed facial appearance/spasm but I guess it's not. The jaw being misaligned but secondary to the "head/neck" balance does explain a lot.
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08-14-2008, 10:57 PM
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Thelma-Louise
08-15-2008, 05:00 PM
I can't tell from your post if you are looking for advice or input or just some discussion on whether what you have researched is valid or not but there are several of us here that do have this issue where we do not have tmj in its purest sense (a joint or condyle problem) but rather a cranio-cervical structural imbalance which results in tmj like symptoms and more in that once the neck is affected the rest of the body is usually impacted as well. Some tend to call this muscular tmj in that there is no apparent physiological issue with the tm joints but nonetheless they suffer with tmj symptoms. Finding the right type of dr is probably the hardest part since this type of issue is only recently becoming more common - so most drs have never heard of it or seen it so most will dismiss patients with such widespread symptoms on a number of different levels and for different reasons. Once the right dr is found however, - not just dentist but chiro - the proper assessment and treatment of the problem can be met.
I guess from your post you are trying to point out that your issue (and others as well) is not tmj in its purest form but one of a head/neck balance issue which while may be true, one has to consider how the head and neck loss their natural alignment and balance to begin be it trauma or accident, incorrect orthepdics of the jaw due to braces or ill-fitting crowns, bridges, or fillings that were too low or too high, all of which may result in a change in bite and balance of the jaws if not an actual shift or deviation of the jaws. This is turn can often impact the c-spine as well as the sphenoid, sternum, and pelvis/hips area by forcing them out of alignment. Is it tmj? - not in the truest sense, no. But given today's current medical & dental standards and practices it is often treated as such.
I guess from your post you are trying to point out that your issue (and others as well) is not tmj in its purest form but one of a head/neck balance issue which while may be true, one has to consider how the head and neck loss their natural alignment and balance to begin be it trauma or accident, incorrect orthepdics of the jaw due to braces or ill-fitting crowns, bridges, or fillings that were too low or too high, all of which may result in a change in bite and balance of the jaws if not an actual shift or deviation of the jaws. This is turn can often impact the c-spine as well as the sphenoid, sternum, and pelvis/hips area by forcing them out of alignment. Is it tmj? - not in the truest sense, no. But given today's current medical & dental standards and practices it is often treated as such.
CaydenJ
08-16-2008, 08:35 AM
I didn't know it was quite common. I thought I had made a new discovery or something and thought everyone here suffered from some form of TMJD or wasn't sure. So then, how did you go about your treatment process? I'm sure you went to a lot of TMJ specialists and been turned down plenty because what you have in fact is something else. Have your problems been relieved?
Had I known it was my spine all along, I would have saved a lot of time and money. The relief of knowing would have slowed down my aging process as well. What's your story Thelma-Louise? I'm still kind of new to this board and topic so different case scenarios is novel to me.
Do you think that this might be worse than having tmj, easier to treat, or similar?
Had I known it was my spine all along, I would have saved a lot of time and money. The relief of knowing would have slowed down my aging process as well. What's your story Thelma-Louise? I'm still kind of new to this board and topic so different case scenarios is novel to me.
Do you think that this might be worse than having tmj, easier to treat, or similar?
Thelma-Louise
08-16-2008, 06:25 PM
I wouldn't say its common but it is becoming more prevalent (probably due to so-called advanced dentistry and our society's push for the perfect smile, but that's only my opinion). I think for the most part, although as you have found from your research - there are some studies and proposed treatments regarding it - it tends to be dismissed by drs and medical/dental professionals since three is not much scientific study behind it. What is probably true at this point is that those who do treat tmj reccognize the fact that those that suffer with this do not have tmj in its truest sense - so we are told we do not have tmj and are often left floundering to figure it out on our own.
Like many others I went from dr to dr, dentists, chiros, neurologists and tried various forms of alternative treatments to help ease the pain and accompanying symptoms. I wish I could say I know the solution or which treatments worked but I do not - although I have made some improvement within the past several months. Mine started in 2004. I probably could tell you more what NOT to do than what to do.
I made the mistake of eventually letting a supposed tmj dentist adjust my bite and my problems only got significantly worse. Trying various splints did not help either as did crowning my back teeth. The only thing that helped with some of the pain was going for cranial sacral therapy and PT - but neither addressed correcting the problem.
I suffer with facial spasms that result from the imbalance or structural conflict I am experiencing. It came on quite suddenly one night but I have an extensive dental history as well - 2 childhood accidents, braces, chin augmentation surgery, dental implants and bridges. It was replacement bridges done in 2000 that set the wheels in motion though - at least that's when I first started getting pain and other symptoms. Initially it was limited to the facial spasms and neck pain but it quickly affected the rest of my body to the point I could barely walk, sleep or eat and naturally couldn't work. MRIs, CT scans and tomograms do not indicate any issue with the tm joints or condyles - but one dr I did go to pointed out that the atlas (C1) was off center quite a bit and rotated towards one side which pushed me closer to the realization this was not tmj in the purest sense.
Right now I am working with a chiro who is trained in applied kinesiologiy (ICAK) and he has been able to better reposition my cranio-cervical alignment but it has taken him almost a year to do so and I still have along way to go - or so he tells me. I am also working with a holistic dentist who was probably the first to figure out I did not really have tmj but this cranio-cervical problem. His hope is that once the chiro stabilizes, if not corrects, the structural imbalance he will be able to re-create a stable bite - which I no longer have due to previous tmj treatments by other drs.
Do I think this is worse than tmj - well its hard for me to answer that since I am biased, of course. Its probably no better or no worse in terms of the pain, symptoms and suffering either endure - but it might be harder to treat in some respects since most tmj dental treatments focus on repositioning the jaw so the joints and condyles can function better - yet with cranio-cervical problems - splints either do not help or can make it worse. The entire orthopedics of the musculo-skeletal structure needs to be addressed. And its very hard to find just one dr that can address both issues at the same time.
Welcome to the boards BTW - sorry you are going through this as well. What have you done or tried so far - what types of treatments or drs have you tried?
Like many others I went from dr to dr, dentists, chiros, neurologists and tried various forms of alternative treatments to help ease the pain and accompanying symptoms. I wish I could say I know the solution or which treatments worked but I do not - although I have made some improvement within the past several months. Mine started in 2004. I probably could tell you more what NOT to do than what to do.
I made the mistake of eventually letting a supposed tmj dentist adjust my bite and my problems only got significantly worse. Trying various splints did not help either as did crowning my back teeth. The only thing that helped with some of the pain was going for cranial sacral therapy and PT - but neither addressed correcting the problem.
I suffer with facial spasms that result from the imbalance or structural conflict I am experiencing. It came on quite suddenly one night but I have an extensive dental history as well - 2 childhood accidents, braces, chin augmentation surgery, dental implants and bridges. It was replacement bridges done in 2000 that set the wheels in motion though - at least that's when I first started getting pain and other symptoms. Initially it was limited to the facial spasms and neck pain but it quickly affected the rest of my body to the point I could barely walk, sleep or eat and naturally couldn't work. MRIs, CT scans and tomograms do not indicate any issue with the tm joints or condyles - but one dr I did go to pointed out that the atlas (C1) was off center quite a bit and rotated towards one side which pushed me closer to the realization this was not tmj in the purest sense.
Right now I am working with a chiro who is trained in applied kinesiologiy (ICAK) and he has been able to better reposition my cranio-cervical alignment but it has taken him almost a year to do so and I still have along way to go - or so he tells me. I am also working with a holistic dentist who was probably the first to figure out I did not really have tmj but this cranio-cervical problem. His hope is that once the chiro stabilizes, if not corrects, the structural imbalance he will be able to re-create a stable bite - which I no longer have due to previous tmj treatments by other drs.
Do I think this is worse than tmj - well its hard for me to answer that since I am biased, of course. Its probably no better or no worse in terms of the pain, symptoms and suffering either endure - but it might be harder to treat in some respects since most tmj dental treatments focus on repositioning the jaw so the joints and condyles can function better - yet with cranio-cervical problems - splints either do not help or can make it worse. The entire orthopedics of the musculo-skeletal structure needs to be addressed. And its very hard to find just one dr that can address both issues at the same time.
Welcome to the boards BTW - sorry you are going through this as well. What have you done or tried so far - what types of treatments or drs have you tried?
CaydenJ
08-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Hi Thelma-Louise,
I apologize it took such a long time to write back but it seems that my condition is in constant flux and apparently changing everyday. Compared to you or the majority of the people on this board, my amount of total sufferage averages very little, but the psychological toll is of close proximity. I never sought treatment because of the financial drawbacks; I can't spend what I don't have. But with the few hundred dollars I did have, for the last 2 years I've been going to practice after practice taking unecessary x-rays and being lied to by many specialists of false conditions so that I can seek their treatment. The last two tmj offices that I went to were the only ones that offered helpful assistance (and turned me down). Well, the first one told me that my orthodontist did a horrible job and therefore my teeth were out of balance and referred me to the second clinic who denied me of having tmjd and had the audacity to turn a patient away.
Since then I haven't bothered trusting another dentist and a month or 2 ago bought an OTC nightguard and it's been allowing my jaws and spine to heal miraculously well.
Just a week ago, I thought that it was purely my spine but now I'm starting to see the orthodontic work done to my teeth is playing a role as well.
I've been desparately seeking and researching help for the last 2 years to no avail. Graciously, my financial problem held me back from seeking treatment and having my bite altered. Now I see that what I need is a bit more time for natural healing and a good orthodontist/chiro. I'm thinking of going back to a university school of orofacial pain seeing that they were the only ones who offered to tell me the truth to my condition and denied me of treatment. I declined their offer for free physical therapy sessions because at the time I didn't want to believe what they were telling me (everything that I realize and am writing of now). I think I'll take advantage of that offer now if it's not too late.
T-L, I thought that splints only altered the angle of the teeth. I didn't know that it could destroy the stability of the bite completely. Is that what happened in your case in that portion of events?
Could you share some more advice/experiences and tell me what not to do just in case my patience starts to wear thin?
Most likely I'll have to go back to an orthodontist but spirituality has been the choice of medicine these days.
Thanks for the welcome and I'll keep you in my prayers daily.
I apologize it took such a long time to write back but it seems that my condition is in constant flux and apparently changing everyday. Compared to you or the majority of the people on this board, my amount of total sufferage averages very little, but the psychological toll is of close proximity. I never sought treatment because of the financial drawbacks; I can't spend what I don't have. But with the few hundred dollars I did have, for the last 2 years I've been going to practice after practice taking unecessary x-rays and being lied to by many specialists of false conditions so that I can seek their treatment. The last two tmj offices that I went to were the only ones that offered helpful assistance (and turned me down). Well, the first one told me that my orthodontist did a horrible job and therefore my teeth were out of balance and referred me to the second clinic who denied me of having tmjd and had the audacity to turn a patient away.
Since then I haven't bothered trusting another dentist and a month or 2 ago bought an OTC nightguard and it's been allowing my jaws and spine to heal miraculously well.
Just a week ago, I thought that it was purely my spine but now I'm starting to see the orthodontic work done to my teeth is playing a role as well.
I've been desparately seeking and researching help for the last 2 years to no avail. Graciously, my financial problem held me back from seeking treatment and having my bite altered. Now I see that what I need is a bit more time for natural healing and a good orthodontist/chiro. I'm thinking of going back to a university school of orofacial pain seeing that they were the only ones who offered to tell me the truth to my condition and denied me of treatment. I declined their offer for free physical therapy sessions because at the time I didn't want to believe what they were telling me (everything that I realize and am writing of now). I think I'll take advantage of that offer now if it's not too late.
T-L, I thought that splints only altered the angle of the teeth. I didn't know that it could destroy the stability of the bite completely. Is that what happened in your case in that portion of events?
Could you share some more advice/experiences and tell me what not to do just in case my patience starts to wear thin?
Most likely I'll have to go back to an orthodontist but spirituality has been the choice of medicine these days.
Thanks for the welcome and I'll keep you in my prayers daily.
Thelma-Louise
08-23-2008, 01:57 AM
I spent the first few months if not a year bouncing around from dr to dr being told I had tmj, no I didn't, yes I did - I was so confused. I couldn't work b/c of the severe pain and incapacitating symptoms yet no dr could give me a diagnosis as to what was wrong so it took me 3 years to finally get approved for SS disability and that is only b/c I finally had a hearing before a judge and she saw the facial spasms - the hearing barely lasted 15mins.
I also met with many drs that suggested I seek psycholoigcal counseling and several that flat out siad they could not help me - those although disappointing were at least truthful and knew their limitations which in a way I respected more than the first tmj dr I let treat me who insisted he could fix my problems and then when things just got worse told me I must have a jaw problem and he doesn't ifx those - then why did he say he specialized in tmj - he even wrote a book about it.
So you are not alone in the tmj web or maze that many of us stumble our way through.
Splints generally do not affect the angle of teeth - there are various types of splints with various names - some are categorized as repositioning splints since they move or reposition the lower jaw to a better position so the joints and condyles can function better - usually the jaw is pulled forward and down a bit - but it depends on what symptoms you are experiencing and the position and condition of the tm joints and condyles to begin with. Others are categorized as stabilization splints used when the jaw is located properly but the bite is imbalanced - this type of splint is designed to equalize the biting plane or surface of the teeth which in turn stablizes the bite. Sometimes it is also used following a repositionng splint. Some splints are worn on top, some are worn on the bottom, and there are variations of both as well. Generally the use of splints does require some form of dental work (once the symptoms are resolved) to make the changes permanent otherwise one may be forced to wear the splint to keep their symptoms in check. I think I came across a site once called Johnson Dental that had pictures and descriptions of various splints.
I think what made my problem worse is that I allowed one dr to do equilibration or file down teeth to adjust my bite - when this did not work I then let him crown my back teeth. When that didn't work I went to someone else and then they said the crowns were incorrect for my mouth - he did different crowns aand splints as well and then i went to a neuromsucular dentist and he did something different as well. I basically think I lost my bite and the treatments and various dental work done by the dentists I had seen furhter induced an imbalance or conflict within my cranial cervical alignment which was probably unstable to begin with.
I wouldn't recommend equilibration or filing down teeth - Iin my opinion it doesn't work and its permanent and can not be undone- a stabilization splint can be worn and adjustments done to that instead and then once the symptoms are resolved the dentist can then determine how best to make the changes permanent. If however it becomes apparent that you do need bite adjustments to better equalize the biting forces within the mouth - then generally they should be done to lower teeth only and not upper teeth.
Some things that might help you are to make a detailed dental and health bio to bring with you for consults - this helps save time in answering questions and allows more time for the dr to examine you. Also get copies of your xrays or MRI's, any tests that you take - even if you are charged a copy fee - it saves you from repeating the tests and limits your exposure to radiation as well and sometimes you can send them in advance to a dr and they can tell you if they think they can help you or not before going in for a consult and possibly wasting time and money. Also - if you do go to another ortho - make sure the next one is trained in tmj and orthopedics of the jaw (specifically FJO or functional jaw orthotics) - many orthos limit themselves to cosmetic or aesthetic improvements of the smile and bite and do not take into consideration ones skeletal structure - and bring the OTC splint that seems to be helping you - it can tell the dr more than you can.
In the interim - while you search for a tmj dr - if you have health insurance or can afford it seek out alternative therapies to help the body manage dealing with this - chiro, cranial sacral therapy, phsycical therapy, accupuncture - they will not correct the actual tmj problem but may help keep the msucles more relaxed which will lessen the intensity of your symptoms. You may want to seek out a Pain Mgmt clinic at local hospital or or dental univerity or school - meds such as anti-inflammatories, muscule relaxants, pain relievers and even certain antidepressants can help - but again they do not correct the problem but can still minimize your suffering.
I also met with many drs that suggested I seek psycholoigcal counseling and several that flat out siad they could not help me - those although disappointing were at least truthful and knew their limitations which in a way I respected more than the first tmj dr I let treat me who insisted he could fix my problems and then when things just got worse told me I must have a jaw problem and he doesn't ifx those - then why did he say he specialized in tmj - he even wrote a book about it.
So you are not alone in the tmj web or maze that many of us stumble our way through.
Splints generally do not affect the angle of teeth - there are various types of splints with various names - some are categorized as repositioning splints since they move or reposition the lower jaw to a better position so the joints and condyles can function better - usually the jaw is pulled forward and down a bit - but it depends on what symptoms you are experiencing and the position and condition of the tm joints and condyles to begin with. Others are categorized as stabilization splints used when the jaw is located properly but the bite is imbalanced - this type of splint is designed to equalize the biting plane or surface of the teeth which in turn stablizes the bite. Sometimes it is also used following a repositionng splint. Some splints are worn on top, some are worn on the bottom, and there are variations of both as well. Generally the use of splints does require some form of dental work (once the symptoms are resolved) to make the changes permanent otherwise one may be forced to wear the splint to keep their symptoms in check. I think I came across a site once called Johnson Dental that had pictures and descriptions of various splints.
I think what made my problem worse is that I allowed one dr to do equilibration or file down teeth to adjust my bite - when this did not work I then let him crown my back teeth. When that didn't work I went to someone else and then they said the crowns were incorrect for my mouth - he did different crowns aand splints as well and then i went to a neuromsucular dentist and he did something different as well. I basically think I lost my bite and the treatments and various dental work done by the dentists I had seen furhter induced an imbalance or conflict within my cranial cervical alignment which was probably unstable to begin with.
I wouldn't recommend equilibration or filing down teeth - Iin my opinion it doesn't work and its permanent and can not be undone- a stabilization splint can be worn and adjustments done to that instead and then once the symptoms are resolved the dentist can then determine how best to make the changes permanent. If however it becomes apparent that you do need bite adjustments to better equalize the biting forces within the mouth - then generally they should be done to lower teeth only and not upper teeth.
Some things that might help you are to make a detailed dental and health bio to bring with you for consults - this helps save time in answering questions and allows more time for the dr to examine you. Also get copies of your xrays or MRI's, any tests that you take - even if you are charged a copy fee - it saves you from repeating the tests and limits your exposure to radiation as well and sometimes you can send them in advance to a dr and they can tell you if they think they can help you or not before going in for a consult and possibly wasting time and money. Also - if you do go to another ortho - make sure the next one is trained in tmj and orthopedics of the jaw (specifically FJO or functional jaw orthotics) - many orthos limit themselves to cosmetic or aesthetic improvements of the smile and bite and do not take into consideration ones skeletal structure - and bring the OTC splint that seems to be helping you - it can tell the dr more than you can.
In the interim - while you search for a tmj dr - if you have health insurance or can afford it seek out alternative therapies to help the body manage dealing with this - chiro, cranial sacral therapy, phsycical therapy, accupuncture - they will not correct the actual tmj problem but may help keep the msucles more relaxed which will lessen the intensity of your symptoms. You may want to seek out a Pain Mgmt clinic at local hospital or or dental univerity or school - meds such as anti-inflammatories, muscule relaxants, pain relievers and even certain antidepressants can help - but again they do not correct the problem but can still minimize your suffering.
CaydenJ
09-02-2008, 08:04 AM
Thanks for the advice. I would never have thought to take my splint with me to an appointment. Progress has been going smooth for me. I practically wear my OTC nightguard 24/7 and whenever I take it off my teeth meet only on one left molar but my jaws look centered more so than before.
I'm wondering how progress has been going for you? Have you been experiencing any improvements? Do update me.
I'm wondering how progress has been going for you? Have you been experiencing any improvements? Do update me.
Thelma-Louise
09-02-2008, 09:50 PM
Based on what you describe definitely bring the splint - this will show the dentist how out of balance your bite and jaws are and will allow him to more quickly determine how to permanently restore it.
Right now I am in what I consider a holding pattern - I see the cranial chiro every week and am waiting on my dentist to make splints - the last set he tried did not fit my mouth at all so he is going to do new ones but it seems like it keeps getting delayed for one reason or another. But overall I am feeling better and when I look back to even a year ago can see I have made significant improvement so for that I am grateful.
Right now I am in what I consider a holding pattern - I see the cranial chiro every week and am waiting on my dentist to make splints - the last set he tried did not fit my mouth at all so he is going to do new ones but it seems like it keeps getting delayed for one reason or another. But overall I am feeling better and when I look back to even a year ago can see I have made significant improvement so for that I am grateful.