JohnR41
12-06-2008, 01:25 PM
I just bought a used paperback book about MS. I bought it as part of my ongoing research into the causes of various diseases. Books on Alzheimer's, Cancer and heart trouble all seem to point to "inflammation" as a cause. About one page into this book on MS the author stated: Damage to the myelin sheath is the result of inflammation (not an exact quote).
Do you believe that inflamation is the cause? If so, there must be an anti-inflammation diet that will prevent MS and possibly help to treat it, for those who already have it.
I haven't read beyond the first chapter yet and would just like your opinion. Do you have MS? Have you tried going on a special diet to prevent further damage by inflammation?
Thanks
Do you believe that inflamation is the cause? If so, there must be an anti-inflammation diet that will prevent MS and possibly help to treat it, for those who already have it.
I haven't read beyond the first chapter yet and would just like your opinion. Do you have MS? Have you tried going on a special diet to prevent further damage by inflammation?
Thanks
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MSNik
12-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Hi john. I have MS- Ive been dx for almost 3 years now and on Rebif. MS is not the result of inflammation; however the two are closely related. Inflamation can cause pressure on the nerves, causing more symtoms of MS.
MS is caused by attacks on the Myelin Sheath, which you did state; however those attacks, cause scarring (lesions) which cause the issues/problems/ symtoms that we deal with. When the attack is not severe enough to completely damage the Myelin (the protective coating of the nerve) sometimes, the nerve can regenerate, causing 100% recovery; sometimes only partial recovery, sometimes the damage is so intense that recovery of that nerve isnt possible and the damage is permenant.
I have permanent damage from an attack in my brain, which cost me the loss of the feeling of my left fingers and hand. This was my first attack, my reason for going to the hospital and learning that I had MS- and for 3 years have not had any feeling beyond intense pain and burning in my left hand and fingers...
Anti-inflamatory diets HELP, as do anti-inflamatory type supplements (Tumeric is a good one as is fish oil)...however, do not confuse this with an antiinflamatory drug such as Ibuprofin. Drugs do not help nerves, however eating sensibly and avoiding things like tomatoes and tomato sauce (both very much inflmatory) can help to reduce the nerve inflamation. Unfortuantely, taking ibuprofin wont help....I know this is confusing and we area all learning more and more thru trial and error but I hope it makes some sense to you.
Nikkki
MS is caused by attacks on the Myelin Sheath, which you did state; however those attacks, cause scarring (lesions) which cause the issues/problems/ symtoms that we deal with. When the attack is not severe enough to completely damage the Myelin (the protective coating of the nerve) sometimes, the nerve can regenerate, causing 100% recovery; sometimes only partial recovery, sometimes the damage is so intense that recovery of that nerve isnt possible and the damage is permenant.
I have permanent damage from an attack in my brain, which cost me the loss of the feeling of my left fingers and hand. This was my first attack, my reason for going to the hospital and learning that I had MS- and for 3 years have not had any feeling beyond intense pain and burning in my left hand and fingers...
Anti-inflamatory diets HELP, as do anti-inflamatory type supplements (Tumeric is a good one as is fish oil)...however, do not confuse this with an antiinflamatory drug such as Ibuprofin. Drugs do not help nerves, however eating sensibly and avoiding things like tomatoes and tomato sauce (both very much inflmatory) can help to reduce the nerve inflamation. Unfortuantely, taking ibuprofin wont help....I know this is confusing and we area all learning more and more thru trial and error but I hope it makes some sense to you.
Nikkki
JohnR41
12-08-2008, 02:31 PM
Hi Nikkki,
Thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about the bad effects you're experiencing with MS.
When it comes to diseases, understanding the cause never seems to be clear cut or simple. I read a few more chapters in my book which was puplished in 1995 so, being that old, it might not have the best (up-to-date) information. From what you have said it seems like inflammation is a factor but the question is: Why does it concentrate on nerve damage in the first place rather than something else?
I'm glad to hear that anti-inflammitory diets help. I'm on an anti-inflamatory regimen but for different reasons. My purpose is to try to avoid getting cancer and/or Alzheimer's disease which runs in my family. A good book that was a big influence on me and got me started on my new regimen was: "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell PhD.. This author sees a connection with diet/lifestyle to many diseases, based on a long term population study in China. It starts out being mostly about cancer but as he goes along, he touches on many diseases including MS.
Basically, he claims that it takes a good (well designed) population study to get to the bottom of what causes various diseases. Most small studies that researchers engage in he refers to as "reductionism". He claims that's the reason they keep going around in circles, wasting lots of research money.
Besides the long term (20 year) population study that he conducted, there are other good long term population studies that come to similar conclusions. Another great long term (20 year) population study was written up in the book, "The Okinawa Program" (written by two doctors whose names escape me at the moment).
The bottom line is this: Populations with different diets/lifestyles suffer much less disease like diabetes, cancer, heart trouble and autoimmune diseases than we do in the U.S.. Although, many are now catching up to us as they Westernize their diets/lifestyles.
Just thought I would share this with you and others as it may be of some help. You never know.
Thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about the bad effects you're experiencing with MS.
When it comes to diseases, understanding the cause never seems to be clear cut or simple. I read a few more chapters in my book which was puplished in 1995 so, being that old, it might not have the best (up-to-date) information. From what you have said it seems like inflammation is a factor but the question is: Why does it concentrate on nerve damage in the first place rather than something else?
I'm glad to hear that anti-inflammitory diets help. I'm on an anti-inflamatory regimen but for different reasons. My purpose is to try to avoid getting cancer and/or Alzheimer's disease which runs in my family. A good book that was a big influence on me and got me started on my new regimen was: "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell PhD.. This author sees a connection with diet/lifestyle to many diseases, based on a long term population study in China. It starts out being mostly about cancer but as he goes along, he touches on many diseases including MS.
Basically, he claims that it takes a good (well designed) population study to get to the bottom of what causes various diseases. Most small studies that researchers engage in he refers to as "reductionism". He claims that's the reason they keep going around in circles, wasting lots of research money.
Besides the long term (20 year) population study that he conducted, there are other good long term population studies that come to similar conclusions. Another great long term (20 year) population study was written up in the book, "The Okinawa Program" (written by two doctors whose names escape me at the moment).
The bottom line is this: Populations with different diets/lifestyles suffer much less disease like diabetes, cancer, heart trouble and autoimmune diseases than we do in the U.S.. Although, many are now catching up to us as they Westernize their diets/lifestyles.
Just thought I would share this with you and others as it may be of some help. You never know.
Bearygood
12-08-2008, 07:31 PM
John, inflammation is very definitely part of MS damage. You can read more about it here: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000737.htm
If you search for the word "autoimmune" on this board you'll get some other good information.
If you search for the word "autoimmune" on this board you'll get some other good information.
JohnR41
12-09-2008, 12:52 PM
John, inflammation is very definitely part of MS damage. You can read more about it here: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000737.htm
If you search for the word "autoimmune" on this board you'll get some other good information.
Thanks, Bearygood, I did read more from the link you provided and one thing caught my eye: "MS is more likely to occur in northern Europe and the northern U.S....." This was mentioned in "The China Study" and the author thinks the reason is because people up north get less sun exposure on their skin and thus have less vitamin D in their system.
Also, if I remember correctly, he thinks that vitamin D from sun exposure is better than supplements. Possibly because it's a different form of vitamin D. I really should read it again to refresh my memory.
If you search for the word "autoimmune" on this board you'll get some other good information.
Thanks, Bearygood, I did read more from the link you provided and one thing caught my eye: "MS is more likely to occur in northern Europe and the northern U.S....." This was mentioned in "The China Study" and the author thinks the reason is because people up north get less sun exposure on their skin and thus have less vitamin D in their system.
Also, if I remember correctly, he thinks that vitamin D from sun exposure is better than supplements. Possibly because it's a different form of vitamin D. I really should read it again to refresh my memory.
Bearygood
12-09-2008, 01:41 PM
That is true and although it hasn't been proven conclusively, what DOES seem to be acceptable as a true finding is that a vitamin D deficiency makes a person at least more susceptible/vulnerable to developing MS (as opposed to causing it). Maybe even other autoimmune diseases since D has a role in the system's regulation. It's specifically vitamin D3, aka cholecalciferol. (There is a lot of on this out there and also many things on this board.) Many MS patients have interestingly been found to be low in D3 and many neurologists are now recommending or prescribing it for already dxed patients -- some studies indicate that its benefits might go beyond prevention. I take it and although my D3 levels were not tested before I started the regimen, after many months of taking it my blood levels were tested and I was still within normal range, which leads me to believe that I might have been low. You need to be careful taking this because you can OD -- it's not expelled through urine and can build up in the body and cause damage. Again, re: D3 and MS, lots of good information out there in the world and on this board as well.
Since you're interested in anti-inflammation, there are several supplements (some of which have been mentioned here) and also things not only to stay away from re: diet but also to INCLUDE. Walnuts, fresh ginger, etc.
Since you're interested in anti-inflammation, there are several supplements (some of which have been mentioned here) and also things not only to stay away from re: diet but also to INCLUDE. Walnuts, fresh ginger, etc.
Bearygood
12-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Just wanted to add that D3 is the type of D from the sun. And also, that it functions in the body like a hormone. :)
parisiancat
12-09-2008, 06:50 PM
Hi John,
I am on a meat, gluten, dairy free diet. I definitely find that dairy affects my symtoms and I believe that it's in an 'inflammatory type' capacity. The symtoms I already have get worse after dairy. But I don't get new symptoms. I get new symptoms from stress and exhuastion.
I have also found that lots of fish (and I take fish oil supplements daily) make me feel better when I'm feeling off (fatigue, brain fog, etc).
I have yet to give up tomatos and nightshade vegetables. It's just so difficult given my already limited diet. And I love tomatoes! Maybe someday soon I'll give it a go.
Cat
I am on a meat, gluten, dairy free diet. I definitely find that dairy affects my symtoms and I believe that it's in an 'inflammatory type' capacity. The symtoms I already have get worse after dairy. But I don't get new symptoms. I get new symptoms from stress and exhuastion.
I have also found that lots of fish (and I take fish oil supplements daily) make me feel better when I'm feeling off (fatigue, brain fog, etc).
I have yet to give up tomatos and nightshade vegetables. It's just so difficult given my already limited diet. And I love tomatoes! Maybe someday soon I'll give it a go.
Cat
JohnR41
12-17-2008, 12:12 PM
Hi John,
I am on a meat, gluten, dairy free diet. I definitely find that dairy affects my symtoms and I believe that it's in an 'inflammatory type' capacity. The symtoms I already have get worse after dairy. But I don't get new symptoms. I get new symptoms from stress and exhuastion.
I have also found that lots of fish (and I take fish oil supplements daily) make me feel better when I'm feeling off (fatigue, brain fog, etc).
I have yet to give up tomatos and nightshade vegetables. It's just so difficult given my already limited diet. And I love tomatoes! Maybe someday soon I'll give it a go.
Cat
Hi Cat,
I eat a little fish every day (about one ounce of wild salmon before my oatmeal breakfast) so, actually, I'm a "pescaterian". (That's a new word that just made it into the dictionary.) ;) Because I eat so little fish, I usually just say that I'm on a plant based diet.
Eating lots of fish and taking fish oil is generally good. A few years ago I used to eat a can of sardines every day. However, one drawback for me was that I would bruise easily playing sports (black 'n' blue marks). I later read that the reason is because all of that fish was making my blood too thin. Also, if you happen to have any bleeding in or on your body, it takes much much longer for the bleeding to stop.
Tomatoes: I love tomatoes too but for some reason I didn't think of them as causing inflammation. I just thought of them as being good because of all the talk about cooked tomatoes containing "lycopene". And lycopene is supposed to help prevent prostate cancer.
This board has brought it to my attention now, about tomatoes causing inflammation. I guess I better cut back. I have been making soup every day and putting a ton (several heaping tablespoons) of tomatoe paste to flavor the soup. I think I'll try cutting back to one level tablespoon. I guess I just didn't think that a vegetable could be harmful in any way.
Nightshade vegetables: I just got a list of them and I see that tomatoes are included. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
I am on a meat, gluten, dairy free diet. I definitely find that dairy affects my symtoms and I believe that it's in an 'inflammatory type' capacity. The symtoms I already have get worse after dairy. But I don't get new symptoms. I get new symptoms from stress and exhuastion.
I have also found that lots of fish (and I take fish oil supplements daily) make me feel better when I'm feeling off (fatigue, brain fog, etc).
I have yet to give up tomatos and nightshade vegetables. It's just so difficult given my already limited diet. And I love tomatoes! Maybe someday soon I'll give it a go.
Cat
Hi Cat,
I eat a little fish every day (about one ounce of wild salmon before my oatmeal breakfast) so, actually, I'm a "pescaterian". (That's a new word that just made it into the dictionary.) ;) Because I eat so little fish, I usually just say that I'm on a plant based diet.
Eating lots of fish and taking fish oil is generally good. A few years ago I used to eat a can of sardines every day. However, one drawback for me was that I would bruise easily playing sports (black 'n' blue marks). I later read that the reason is because all of that fish was making my blood too thin. Also, if you happen to have any bleeding in or on your body, it takes much much longer for the bleeding to stop.
Tomatoes: I love tomatoes too but for some reason I didn't think of them as causing inflammation. I just thought of them as being good because of all the talk about cooked tomatoes containing "lycopene". And lycopene is supposed to help prevent prostate cancer.
This board has brought it to my attention now, about tomatoes causing inflammation. I guess I better cut back. I have been making soup every day and putting a ton (several heaping tablespoons) of tomatoe paste to flavor the soup. I think I'll try cutting back to one level tablespoon. I guess I just didn't think that a vegetable could be harmful in any way.
Nightshade vegetables: I just got a list of them and I see that tomatoes are included. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
MSJayhawk
12-17-2008, 01:18 PM
In order to get the benefit of lycopene, you should cook the tomato. I eat homemade salsa and sauce. I do not eat raw tomatoes very often. I am not bothered by the salsa or sauce.
In working with a wound my mom has, I found a study that indicated that fish oil slows down the healing of the wounds. We have her on zero fish/fish oil until her wound heals.
In working with a wound my mom has, I found a study that indicated that fish oil slows down the healing of the wounds. We have her on zero fish/fish oil until her wound heals.
JohnR41
12-18-2008, 12:48 PM
In order to get the benefit of lycopene, you should cook the tomato. I eat homemade salsa and sauce. I do not eat raw tomatoes very often. I am not bothered by the salsa or sauce.
In working with a wound my mom has, I found a study that indicated that fish oil slows down the healing of the wounds. We have her on zero fish/fish oil until her wound heals.
Thanks, Jayhawk, I believe you are probably doing the right thing for your mom because inflammation is needed for healing wounds. It's interesting how we need inflammation for healing and yet we don't want "chronic inflammation". Everything seems to be a balancing act.
So here's a question: Eating lots of fish and taking fish oil may help to prevent an "MS attack" but would you stop the fish and fish oil if damage does occur, assuming that you hope to heal some or all of the damage? How would you know if you are allowing healing to begin or if you are allowing more damage to take place?
My opinion: Since we never know exactly what's going on in the body, it might be best to just eat a small portion of fatty (cold water) fish once or twice per week, along with a good overall diet. It seems like whenever we overdo something, we run the risk of causing another problem (side effects). The way I see it, if someone eats a good diet that's low in processed foods and saturated fats, then that person doesn't need to be taking fish oil supplements.
In working with a wound my mom has, I found a study that indicated that fish oil slows down the healing of the wounds. We have her on zero fish/fish oil until her wound heals.
Thanks, Jayhawk, I believe you are probably doing the right thing for your mom because inflammation is needed for healing wounds. It's interesting how we need inflammation for healing and yet we don't want "chronic inflammation". Everything seems to be a balancing act.
So here's a question: Eating lots of fish and taking fish oil may help to prevent an "MS attack" but would you stop the fish and fish oil if damage does occur, assuming that you hope to heal some or all of the damage? How would you know if you are allowing healing to begin or if you are allowing more damage to take place?
My opinion: Since we never know exactly what's going on in the body, it might be best to just eat a small portion of fatty (cold water) fish once or twice per week, along with a good overall diet. It seems like whenever we overdo something, we run the risk of causing another problem (side effects). The way I see it, if someone eats a good diet that's low in processed foods and saturated fats, then that person doesn't need to be taking fish oil supplements.