luvtocamp
12-23-2008, 01:51 PM
Yes I was thinking the same thing.
Oh you decided to put your tree up. Take it easy, maybe have your Sister and her husband come early tomorrow and they can help. Glad your having a nice Xmas. Oh I'm sure your meal will be wonderful- are you making a ham or turkey or ???, but Xmas day itself sounds like a lot of socializing and may make you tired.
Actually my husband will probably work, I said go ahead, I'm not much company anyway and the job is behind. He usually works 7 days a week when he has work, and we thank the Lord he has work so its ok.
TL- I never even heard of implants that long ago. You must of been like part of the first people to get implants. I mean I never even thought of them tell I got on the tmj message board, no one ever mentioned them to me.
You have been throught so much with your teeth, I just have to agree with you about some dentist not even thinking about the long term concenquesces of their actions.
Hey about the slope of the upper gum, my right side is always the worst and thats where they did the upper aveloplasty to remove gum and he made it shorter than the other side, made me mad, I think he cut too much off and theres no slope there just straight back, he was just suppose to remove alittle gum there and I said now its shorter than the other side and he said the dentist said to make it shorter, yes but to match the other side. So I think you are right.
Hey its not our fault, we were trying to do what we felt was right. I was told get a new pair of dentures every 5-6 years so when mine got loose I got a new pair, wish I would of just got them relined, and everything you did was what you thought was the best thing to do, and we trusted the professionals, as we didn't know any better.
I wonder if anyone ever sues dentist, sometimes I get so made thinking about this stuff, never thought about ever sueing before but sure makes ya mad.
Try not to do anything too strenuous now, I know its frustrating isn't it, not getting stuff done. Even if it was just me and my husband I use to put the tree up and that. Remember its all adults coming over and no one is going to judge you, so you don't need everything to be just right.:)
Oh you decided to put your tree up. Take it easy, maybe have your Sister and her husband come early tomorrow and they can help. Glad your having a nice Xmas. Oh I'm sure your meal will be wonderful- are you making a ham or turkey or ???, but Xmas day itself sounds like a lot of socializing and may make you tired.
Actually my husband will probably work, I said go ahead, I'm not much company anyway and the job is behind. He usually works 7 days a week when he has work, and we thank the Lord he has work so its ok.
TL- I never even heard of implants that long ago. You must of been like part of the first people to get implants. I mean I never even thought of them tell I got on the tmj message board, no one ever mentioned them to me.
You have been throught so much with your teeth, I just have to agree with you about some dentist not even thinking about the long term concenquesces of their actions.
Hey about the slope of the upper gum, my right side is always the worst and thats where they did the upper aveloplasty to remove gum and he made it shorter than the other side, made me mad, I think he cut too much off and theres no slope there just straight back, he was just suppose to remove alittle gum there and I said now its shorter than the other side and he said the dentist said to make it shorter, yes but to match the other side. So I think you are right.
Hey its not our fault, we were trying to do what we felt was right. I was told get a new pair of dentures every 5-6 years so when mine got loose I got a new pair, wish I would of just got them relined, and everything you did was what you thought was the best thing to do, and we trusted the professionals, as we didn't know any better.
I wonder if anyone ever sues dentist, sometimes I get so made thinking about this stuff, never thought about ever sueing before but sure makes ya mad.
Try not to do anything too strenuous now, I know its frustrating isn't it, not getting stuff done. Even if it was just me and my husband I use to put the tree up and that. Remember its all adults coming over and no one is going to judge you, so you don't need everything to be just right.:)
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Thelma-Louise
12-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I follow the Italian tradition of fish on xmas eve - although I don't make all 7 like you are supposed do - who can eat that much - but I'll do filet of sole, salmon, blue fish and bacala (a salted cod) and a shrimp cocktail appetizer and some angel hair pasta with garlic and oil and some veges on the side. Suppsedly there was 7 different fishes at the Last Supper per some religions and xmas eve dinner mimcs that - your really only supposed to have a taste or nibble of each but Italians alway get carried away when it comes to food and each fish becomes a course in itself - way too much I think. But fish is easy to eat so I am kind of looking forward to it - its so expensive I seldom buy it nowadays. Blew my food budget this month.
When I got the implants it was relatively new but the dentist I went to who I didn't know except for an ad in the paper told me they were being used at that point for 10 years and had become commonplace and widely used - I paid $15K for implants and bridges and 4 crowns around 1993. You know I thought it was risky back then - but being younger at the time I didn't think much of the consequences or future impact it could have - I was just horrified at having to lose my front teeth I just did it - plus I was told doing the implants would prevent future bone recession that is common with partials - the only other alternative I had.
The slope of my gum line as well as the thickness changed with the perio flap surgery I had done a few years after the implants. Although the surgery was not done around the implants or front - the 4 lateral quads were done I immediately noticed a difference - my molars looked like they flared out being like little teepees or bells - b/c the gum and bone around them receded after the procedure exposing more of the tooth which is narrower - plus I now had spaces in between each tooth which I never had either. And the gum and bone line changed from side to side and was no longer the same on both side with some areas thicker than others, etc.
When I first got sick with this that is the first thing my sister said to me - see you did too much to your mouth - you caused all of this. While I agree I did cause this to a degree by doing too much - as you said I was following poor advice - I think the real problem was I went to different dentists for each major "recon" or procedure and they each had their own methods and with the last dentist it went awry - I mean how long can one's luck hold out?
Its very hard to sue dentists for a number of different reasons but primarily b/c its very difficult to prove their dental work or negligence was inferior and caused our problems - you seldom will find a dentist willing to testify against another dentist and for every dentist you do find who will testify on your behalf stating the dental work is at fault, the other side can find just as many claiming it is not. Then you also have the issue that you have seen other dentists since that time and it can be argued any one of those dentists caused the problem. Even though you and I can probably pinpoint the exact day and time we started having problems and with what dentist - a good defense lawyer would knock out our claim with a 1-2-3 punch in no time. I have seen some cases online but not many. But when I think too hard about it I get furious over it think how unfair the world can be sometimes.
Well the trees a bust right now - I have a rotating stand that at first didn't turn but the tree lit, now I got it turning but the tree won't light - arrgh - plus I broke one of the plugs on one set of lights arrgh - so I either go buy a new stand or just put the tree in the stand and connect the lights to an outlet - it won't rotate but it will be up - but now I will have to go up in the attic for another set of lights. And everything is just so much of an effort, you know? I am tempted to put the tree away and pull out this 1 foot high ceramic table top tree that lights up and be done with it. Heehee.
When I got the implants it was relatively new but the dentist I went to who I didn't know except for an ad in the paper told me they were being used at that point for 10 years and had become commonplace and widely used - I paid $15K for implants and bridges and 4 crowns around 1993. You know I thought it was risky back then - but being younger at the time I didn't think much of the consequences or future impact it could have - I was just horrified at having to lose my front teeth I just did it - plus I was told doing the implants would prevent future bone recession that is common with partials - the only other alternative I had.
The slope of my gum line as well as the thickness changed with the perio flap surgery I had done a few years after the implants. Although the surgery was not done around the implants or front - the 4 lateral quads were done I immediately noticed a difference - my molars looked like they flared out being like little teepees or bells - b/c the gum and bone around them receded after the procedure exposing more of the tooth which is narrower - plus I now had spaces in between each tooth which I never had either. And the gum and bone line changed from side to side and was no longer the same on both side with some areas thicker than others, etc.
When I first got sick with this that is the first thing my sister said to me - see you did too much to your mouth - you caused all of this. While I agree I did cause this to a degree by doing too much - as you said I was following poor advice - I think the real problem was I went to different dentists for each major "recon" or procedure and they each had their own methods and with the last dentist it went awry - I mean how long can one's luck hold out?
Its very hard to sue dentists for a number of different reasons but primarily b/c its very difficult to prove their dental work or negligence was inferior and caused our problems - you seldom will find a dentist willing to testify against another dentist and for every dentist you do find who will testify on your behalf stating the dental work is at fault, the other side can find just as many claiming it is not. Then you also have the issue that you have seen other dentists since that time and it can be argued any one of those dentists caused the problem. Even though you and I can probably pinpoint the exact day and time we started having problems and with what dentist - a good defense lawyer would knock out our claim with a 1-2-3 punch in no time. I have seen some cases online but not many. But when I think too hard about it I get furious over it think how unfair the world can be sometimes.
Well the trees a bust right now - I have a rotating stand that at first didn't turn but the tree lit, now I got it turning but the tree won't light - arrgh - plus I broke one of the plugs on one set of lights arrgh - so I either go buy a new stand or just put the tree in the stand and connect the lights to an outlet - it won't rotate but it will be up - but now I will have to go up in the attic for another set of lights. And everything is just so much of an effort, you know? I am tempted to put the tree away and pull out this 1 foot high ceramic table top tree that lights up and be done with it. Heehee.
luvtocamp
12-23-2008, 06:23 PM
That is all I have up, a little ceramic xmas tree. I've never seen a roatating tree. I know doing xmas decor can be frustraating enough when your feeling well.
Your meal sounds great, I like fish and pasta , althought never tried blue fish, yes all that fish can blow a budget, I do make salmon patties for me as they are like you said easy to eat.
I know it seems like all the dentist know eachother in an area and stick up for eachother. I sometimes think tho dentist can harm a persons health just as much as a negligent doctor. I guess the main thing is to get better, if these dentures dont' work out I am requesting a refund for them tho.
Well I think everything you had done was suppose to be what was for the best, you were trying to save your bone and teeth.
Well have a nice evening - its still snowing here. Didn't make it out except to the mailbox.
Your meal sounds great, I like fish and pasta , althought never tried blue fish, yes all that fish can blow a budget, I do make salmon patties for me as they are like you said easy to eat.
I know it seems like all the dentist know eachother in an area and stick up for eachother. I sometimes think tho dentist can harm a persons health just as much as a negligent doctor. I guess the main thing is to get better, if these dentures dont' work out I am requesting a refund for them tho.
Well I think everything you had done was suppose to be what was for the best, you were trying to save your bone and teeth.
Well have a nice evening - its still snowing here. Didn't make it out except to the mailbox.
StillHope
12-24-2008, 01:56 AM
Hello TL and LTC, I posted on the old thread but then saw this one started. Don't reply to that one. I'll switch here.
I agree completely about suing, talked to few lawyers since even dentists told me to sue some of my docs. It's hopeless. We can make it public tho thanks to the web.
I had the gums filed too, as I mentioned. I hate it and hate that dentist the most!! I feel and look as if my fronts start right from under my nose! No nice lip as I had, the teeth surface is long and sticking out as you say. In my case there was NO reason to do that: that guy was a total idiot!!! It was not even for money since I never paid to him and could not even go back due to the pain and my overall state.
I agree too about their different approaches. I also think that this is a good way for all of them to make money. One dentist filed my teeth, the next one said that they were not filed correctly and overfiled them, the third one did not like the shape (it was rectangular) and made it rounded: then no temps were holding in place and would come off easily (besides my pain in the teeth for many months and sensitivity for years from severe overfiling). After that whenever I heard "I will start with re-preparing your teeth properly" , i.e. rectangular again, I would just say "thank you " and "good bye". Still not sure that someone will agree to place crowns on what is left,... but I STILL HOPE. In any case this is secondary to my occlusion. Need to be pain-free first...
Oh, I wanted to share someone else's experience similar to TL's perio story but happier. A doc made dentures but they were not comfy. Then he said, I'll refer you to my brother to do a bone surgery to make them fit. The patient asked why not to file the denture to fit the bone. The dentist said: " Oh, you are smart!!!" And that's what he had to do since there was nothing else to say to that patient!
I agree completely about suing, talked to few lawyers since even dentists told me to sue some of my docs. It's hopeless. We can make it public tho thanks to the web.
I had the gums filed too, as I mentioned. I hate it and hate that dentist the most!! I feel and look as if my fronts start right from under my nose! No nice lip as I had, the teeth surface is long and sticking out as you say. In my case there was NO reason to do that: that guy was a total idiot!!! It was not even for money since I never paid to him and could not even go back due to the pain and my overall state.
I agree too about their different approaches. I also think that this is a good way for all of them to make money. One dentist filed my teeth, the next one said that they were not filed correctly and overfiled them, the third one did not like the shape (it was rectangular) and made it rounded: then no temps were holding in place and would come off easily (besides my pain in the teeth for many months and sensitivity for years from severe overfiling). After that whenever I heard "I will start with re-preparing your teeth properly" , i.e. rectangular again, I would just say "thank you " and "good bye". Still not sure that someone will agree to place crowns on what is left,... but I STILL HOPE. In any case this is secondary to my occlusion. Need to be pain-free first...
Oh, I wanted to share someone else's experience similar to TL's perio story but happier. A doc made dentures but they were not comfy. Then he said, I'll refer you to my brother to do a bone surgery to make them fit. The patient asked why not to file the denture to fit the bone. The dentist said: " Oh, you are smart!!!" And that's what he had to do since there was nothing else to say to that patient!
Thelma-Louise
12-24-2008, 04:28 AM
Oh Stillhope - sometimes I read your posts and think they are mine and I have to check to see who wrote it - it could be me - your stories sound so familiar and I just keep saying to myself "me, too".:wave:
Well thought I would post while I wait for my meds to kick in - finished the tree and finished wrapping gifts and all I have to do now is cook tomorrow and set the table - I feel so proud of myself when I get things done these days.
Stillhope - just to answer some questions from the Part 2 posting:
They have cosmetic overdentures available by dentists called Snap Ons but they require models be made and so forth and can cost I think about $250 - maybe more - I saw them on a news show one morning and it was done by a dentist that worked with my 2nd tmj dentist down in NYC - I have his name if you want it. Then I saw in a Dr Leonard catalog cosmetic over dentures for $60 that says it comes as a soft gel (not the teeth but the mold above the teeth) that molds to your own teeth and can be trimmed in the back - it came in small, med and large. I have no clue what they look like or how they work other than from the picture int he catalog and that is not too explicit.
Thanks for the info on the special nerve related to the cuspid - I have long suspected that only b/c before the tmj I was getting strange sensations with my left upper cuspid - primarily I would get this feeling it was turning - and as it turned it felt like my upper left back teeth followed it and my teeth would not meet when I tried to close my mouth - and then I would get dizzy and if I rubbed the left canine it would stop. I have suggested many times to my dentist "let's just yank the sucker"! He feels though it can be corrected by putting the correct type of canine over it - we shall see.
The dentist that initially crowned my canines when I had the implants done didn't want to take on my case - he was honest and up front about it, feared he would make things worse - suggested I go to a university in Florida - too bad though b/c he had the right idea I think - do one side at a time until it felt comfortable, then the other side and lastly the front - this would ensure lateral balance before any contact in the front is made - which can throw things off and make you think the imbalance is coming from elsewhere.
Basically they removed one set of premolars/bicuspids for the braces and then closed those gaps - but they kind of re-appeared after a couple years just behind my canines, but not really enough to put in a whole tooth. And then I lost the front teeth so I have no teeth in the front, so the gap there, then my canines and right into a premolar and 2 molars. At this point I have gaps everywhere as you can imagine. The prostho that did the replacement made the canines wider to close the gap and that's when my problems started.
Another point you made is about the prepping - the guy who first did my canines and a few crowns left a lot of tooth there and did them round. The next guy said they were underprepped and insisted he redo them - he angleg them like little teepees or pointy - and then suddenly he started telling me I needed posts in the teeth to hold the crown so he must have over did it. Then the first tmj dentist I went to once the tmj went fullblown said they were filed wrong - they needed to be flatter for neuromuscular reasons and he filed them some more. Now my dentist says they are filed almost to the gum line and probably will not be able to hold crowns again - even with posts. I will need a crown lenghtening procedure done on each - which will shorten my gum line so all you will see when I smile or open my mouth is teeth - -I'll probably look like Mr Ed the horse - or we put a perm gold caps on them and use them like anchors and affix a removable denture to them that will "snap on". We haven't gotten to that point yet since he is just trying to make me something that will give me back a bite, stop the facial spasms and help my muscles to relax.
Your story about the other person struck a cord as well. At my last appt with the dentist that started this mess - I pointed out that the last upper and lower teeth on my left side were no longer meeting and it was b/c the 2 crowns on the same lower side were now higher than than the last tooth - so he said - no problem we will just crown that too - so I said but that tooth has been that height since my teens and there is nothing wrong with it so why destroy it for a crown - if anything is wrong its the 2 crowns in front of it - and he said how do you know that and I said b/c that side is aching and only started when you did the crowns - and he said but you are aching b/c the last tooth is not meeting the one above it - and I said but it used to before you did the crowns - we went around and around the same issue I finally just said forget it and I am not crowning that back tooth.
What makes me nuts is you get some guys that fight for every tooth to the point you want to say forget about it and pull it and they refuse and then you get these guys that have no qualms with messing up good tooth just to make money for themselves.
Lastly - I know you hate walking around without your temps but I am now without anything on my teeth and no front teeth either for 18 mos. I don't feel self-conscious about it with my family but do in social settings so I just don't smile with my mouth open - I just grin - I try not to open my mouth too wide to speak either. I am sure others like my neighbors have noticed it but sometimes I think maybe not - one neighbor asked me if I was interested in meeting a single friend of his - to myself I said what are you nuts - I have no teeth - they guy will bolt when he meets me - but I just said no thanks I wasn't interested righ tnow - but then I thought well maybe this neighbor hasn't noticed it - I don't know. Or maybe his friend has no teeth and he thought we would make a good pair - LOL.
Well thought I would leave you both with this - this morning within 10 mins, I lost my slippers, one sock and a tube of toothpaste (yes - I try and keep my stubs clean) - found everything over the course of the day and can't remember putting them there and then tonight I was on the phone with my sister discussing xmas gifts for my nephew and at one point she said to me - in a nice way - what is wong with you, I told you this at least 5-6 times already - don't you retain anything ?- and I said no, not really - I am so pre-occupied with a pain here or there or a feeling in my foot that usually means a facial spasm is going to happen although I think I am listening to you I am really focused on other things. My braine is like a sieve lately - everythting just tpasses right by - within minutes too, like it never happened.
Well the meds just kicked in so I need to wrap it up now - its later than usual even for me, so 'night guys - talk to you tomorrow.
Well thought I would post while I wait for my meds to kick in - finished the tree and finished wrapping gifts and all I have to do now is cook tomorrow and set the table - I feel so proud of myself when I get things done these days.
Stillhope - just to answer some questions from the Part 2 posting:
They have cosmetic overdentures available by dentists called Snap Ons but they require models be made and so forth and can cost I think about $250 - maybe more - I saw them on a news show one morning and it was done by a dentist that worked with my 2nd tmj dentist down in NYC - I have his name if you want it. Then I saw in a Dr Leonard catalog cosmetic over dentures for $60 that says it comes as a soft gel (not the teeth but the mold above the teeth) that molds to your own teeth and can be trimmed in the back - it came in small, med and large. I have no clue what they look like or how they work other than from the picture int he catalog and that is not too explicit.
Thanks for the info on the special nerve related to the cuspid - I have long suspected that only b/c before the tmj I was getting strange sensations with my left upper cuspid - primarily I would get this feeling it was turning - and as it turned it felt like my upper left back teeth followed it and my teeth would not meet when I tried to close my mouth - and then I would get dizzy and if I rubbed the left canine it would stop. I have suggested many times to my dentist "let's just yank the sucker"! He feels though it can be corrected by putting the correct type of canine over it - we shall see.
The dentist that initially crowned my canines when I had the implants done didn't want to take on my case - he was honest and up front about it, feared he would make things worse - suggested I go to a university in Florida - too bad though b/c he had the right idea I think - do one side at a time until it felt comfortable, then the other side and lastly the front - this would ensure lateral balance before any contact in the front is made - which can throw things off and make you think the imbalance is coming from elsewhere.
Basically they removed one set of premolars/bicuspids for the braces and then closed those gaps - but they kind of re-appeared after a couple years just behind my canines, but not really enough to put in a whole tooth. And then I lost the front teeth so I have no teeth in the front, so the gap there, then my canines and right into a premolar and 2 molars. At this point I have gaps everywhere as you can imagine. The prostho that did the replacement made the canines wider to close the gap and that's when my problems started.
Another point you made is about the prepping - the guy who first did my canines and a few crowns left a lot of tooth there and did them round. The next guy said they were underprepped and insisted he redo them - he angleg them like little teepees or pointy - and then suddenly he started telling me I needed posts in the teeth to hold the crown so he must have over did it. Then the first tmj dentist I went to once the tmj went fullblown said they were filed wrong - they needed to be flatter for neuromuscular reasons and he filed them some more. Now my dentist says they are filed almost to the gum line and probably will not be able to hold crowns again - even with posts. I will need a crown lenghtening procedure done on each - which will shorten my gum line so all you will see when I smile or open my mouth is teeth - -I'll probably look like Mr Ed the horse - or we put a perm gold caps on them and use them like anchors and affix a removable denture to them that will "snap on". We haven't gotten to that point yet since he is just trying to make me something that will give me back a bite, stop the facial spasms and help my muscles to relax.
Your story about the other person struck a cord as well. At my last appt with the dentist that started this mess - I pointed out that the last upper and lower teeth on my left side were no longer meeting and it was b/c the 2 crowns on the same lower side were now higher than than the last tooth - so he said - no problem we will just crown that too - so I said but that tooth has been that height since my teens and there is nothing wrong with it so why destroy it for a crown - if anything is wrong its the 2 crowns in front of it - and he said how do you know that and I said b/c that side is aching and only started when you did the crowns - and he said but you are aching b/c the last tooth is not meeting the one above it - and I said but it used to before you did the crowns - we went around and around the same issue I finally just said forget it and I am not crowning that back tooth.
What makes me nuts is you get some guys that fight for every tooth to the point you want to say forget about it and pull it and they refuse and then you get these guys that have no qualms with messing up good tooth just to make money for themselves.
Lastly - I know you hate walking around without your temps but I am now without anything on my teeth and no front teeth either for 18 mos. I don't feel self-conscious about it with my family but do in social settings so I just don't smile with my mouth open - I just grin - I try not to open my mouth too wide to speak either. I am sure others like my neighbors have noticed it but sometimes I think maybe not - one neighbor asked me if I was interested in meeting a single friend of his - to myself I said what are you nuts - I have no teeth - they guy will bolt when he meets me - but I just said no thanks I wasn't interested righ tnow - but then I thought well maybe this neighbor hasn't noticed it - I don't know. Or maybe his friend has no teeth and he thought we would make a good pair - LOL.
Well thought I would leave you both with this - this morning within 10 mins, I lost my slippers, one sock and a tube of toothpaste (yes - I try and keep my stubs clean) - found everything over the course of the day and can't remember putting them there and then tonight I was on the phone with my sister discussing xmas gifts for my nephew and at one point she said to me - in a nice way - what is wong with you, I told you this at least 5-6 times already - don't you retain anything ?- and I said no, not really - I am so pre-occupied with a pain here or there or a feeling in my foot that usually means a facial spasm is going to happen although I think I am listening to you I am really focused on other things. My braine is like a sieve lately - everythting just tpasses right by - within minutes too, like it never happened.
Well the meds just kicked in so I need to wrap it up now - its later than usual even for me, so 'night guys - talk to you tomorrow.
luvtocamp
12-24-2008, 09:59 AM
Happy Christmas Eve Day!!
Stillhope- A prosthodontist made my last dentures and they did fit good, but still had symptoms so went to the osteo and she said bite was too high and sent me back to the tmj dentist.
anyway he asked me if I would have the very front of my uppergum gum under my nose shaved down and I said no (not after the last aveloplasty) and he said Yeah I never recommend anyone to have bone removed!!!!!!!!- quite a contradiction- I remember it struck me so weird at the time, why would he ask. but stillhope I think he wanted that done so my top would sit straight down from my nose like you said, kinda like what you had done.
anyway yes I always think the R. upper aveloplasty is some of the cause of getting my right bite back, he cut too much off and makes the gumline longer and up at the back and that is the side that never fits right. It makes the denture go further back on that side, and I often wonder if they can make an upper to simulate more gum tissue back there, it would fit better.
My present dentist said no its not that tho, but I think it is!!!
TL & Stillhope- Yes sometimes I think your posts are a lot alike, your stories do have a lot in common.
Quest for both of you--" My Right side is tight from neck down to leg, would that mean my r. bite is too high or my left too low, (as my left bite is lower s lower than the right) in your opinion.
TL- glad you got your tree up and gifts wrapped. I know the feeling, doing simple things we use to take for granted, are so much more difficult now.
Well I looked at the upper cervical and since mainly all my R. side is tight, my head is tilted to the left, kinda what I thought, so either my R. teeth need to be lowered or my left teeth need more height. And how do we know which side???????
Stillhope- A prosthodontist made my last dentures and they did fit good, but still had symptoms so went to the osteo and she said bite was too high and sent me back to the tmj dentist.
anyway he asked me if I would have the very front of my uppergum gum under my nose shaved down and I said no (not after the last aveloplasty) and he said Yeah I never recommend anyone to have bone removed!!!!!!!!- quite a contradiction- I remember it struck me so weird at the time, why would he ask. but stillhope I think he wanted that done so my top would sit straight down from my nose like you said, kinda like what you had done.
anyway yes I always think the R. upper aveloplasty is some of the cause of getting my right bite back, he cut too much off and makes the gumline longer and up at the back and that is the side that never fits right. It makes the denture go further back on that side, and I often wonder if they can make an upper to simulate more gum tissue back there, it would fit better.
My present dentist said no its not that tho, but I think it is!!!
TL & Stillhope- Yes sometimes I think your posts are a lot alike, your stories do have a lot in common.
Quest for both of you--" My Right side is tight from neck down to leg, would that mean my r. bite is too high or my left too low, (as my left bite is lower s lower than the right) in your opinion.
TL- glad you got your tree up and gifts wrapped. I know the feeling, doing simple things we use to take for granted, are so much more difficult now.
Well I looked at the upper cervical and since mainly all my R. side is tight, my head is tilted to the left, kinda what I thought, so either my R. teeth need to be lowered or my left teeth need more height. And how do we know which side???????
Thelma-Louise
12-25-2008, 01:06 AM
Merry Christmas to you too and Happy Holidays.
I read your post earlier today and have been mulling over your question during the day each time contradicting myself with a different answer. My dentist says there is a way to know the correct vertical for a person - I myself can find it when I open my mouth slowly and just let my jaw hang freely - I can feel everything relax. B/c of my situation in which my teeth were filed down and the consequences from that my first inclination would be to not lower the right side but build up the one tooth. Have you tried putting anything on that lower tooth to build it up to see if that does help in anyway?
When you say "my right side is too high and my left is too low" - do you mean the lower or upper teeth in terms of adjusting the bite? How do you know where the imbalance is coming from in terms of the upper or lower jaw - or is it that you feel your uppers are Ok the way they are or your lowers are OK so the imbalance has to be coming from the other.
I know at one point I was filing the first overdenture splint I had to try and make it more comfortable knowing my dentist was going to try something else and in doing so noticed a pattern with regards to where I filed and a change in symptoms - when I mentioned this he pulled out a body chart that listed all the pressure points within the body and the tooth that correlated to them - I guess they use this chart in terms of pressure point testing the body to see what tooth is "at fault".
At one point I said to my dentist I will probably never have the same bite I had and will never be comfortable again - and he said you may not have the exact bite but you will be comfortable again - its all a matter of just getting everything to hit at the same time with equal pressure.
When my tmj first started I had the opposite of what you have now - my left side was tight down the neck and shoulders and my head tilted toward the right - the first chiro I went to said the altas was rotated toward the left as was my lower jaw. At that time I felt like my upper left side was either too short and/or my lower left side too high since my right side wasn't bothering as much - so at that point since the pain was on the left I assumed it was due to something on that side.
Well - b/c of the rain my neice and her boyfriend could not make dinner tonight as the roads were slippery and icy due to the remaining snow we had. Plus now there is heavy fog due to the drastic change in temp and they live an hour away up north - so just my sister and her husband came for dinner. But we had a nice leisurely dinner and desert and they have since gone home - so now I am off to make the cheesecake.
Have a very Merry Christmas - maybe this one will be our last "bad" one - I keep thinking of the Polar Express movie where the boy starts saying "I do believe, I do believe" and then he hears the bell ring or the "spirit of Christms" - so let's keeping telling ourselve we will get better, we will get better - and maybe some miracle will happen for us as well.
God Bless us all and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all here.
I read your post earlier today and have been mulling over your question during the day each time contradicting myself with a different answer. My dentist says there is a way to know the correct vertical for a person - I myself can find it when I open my mouth slowly and just let my jaw hang freely - I can feel everything relax. B/c of my situation in which my teeth were filed down and the consequences from that my first inclination would be to not lower the right side but build up the one tooth. Have you tried putting anything on that lower tooth to build it up to see if that does help in anyway?
When you say "my right side is too high and my left is too low" - do you mean the lower or upper teeth in terms of adjusting the bite? How do you know where the imbalance is coming from in terms of the upper or lower jaw - or is it that you feel your uppers are Ok the way they are or your lowers are OK so the imbalance has to be coming from the other.
I know at one point I was filing the first overdenture splint I had to try and make it more comfortable knowing my dentist was going to try something else and in doing so noticed a pattern with regards to where I filed and a change in symptoms - when I mentioned this he pulled out a body chart that listed all the pressure points within the body and the tooth that correlated to them - I guess they use this chart in terms of pressure point testing the body to see what tooth is "at fault".
At one point I said to my dentist I will probably never have the same bite I had and will never be comfortable again - and he said you may not have the exact bite but you will be comfortable again - its all a matter of just getting everything to hit at the same time with equal pressure.
When my tmj first started I had the opposite of what you have now - my left side was tight down the neck and shoulders and my head tilted toward the right - the first chiro I went to said the altas was rotated toward the left as was my lower jaw. At that time I felt like my upper left side was either too short and/or my lower left side too high since my right side wasn't bothering as much - so at that point since the pain was on the left I assumed it was due to something on that side.
Well - b/c of the rain my neice and her boyfriend could not make dinner tonight as the roads were slippery and icy due to the remaining snow we had. Plus now there is heavy fog due to the drastic change in temp and they live an hour away up north - so just my sister and her husband came for dinner. But we had a nice leisurely dinner and desert and they have since gone home - so now I am off to make the cheesecake.
Have a very Merry Christmas - maybe this one will be our last "bad" one - I keep thinking of the Polar Express movie where the boy starts saying "I do believe, I do believe" and then he hears the bell ring or the "spirit of Christms" - so let's keeping telling ourselve we will get better, we will get better - and maybe some miracle will happen for us as well.
God Bless us all and Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all here.
StillHope
12-25-2008, 08:33 PM
TL, yes, we have so much of the same dental disaster! Wish we could talk on the phone or something!
Before reading the other posts want to comment on your #5.
If a canine or other teeth turned it should not be a big deal (I have that too as a result of previous dental work). Once you get your bite then it all can be solved. I really feel strongly for your teeth like for mine: no more damage to them! We had enough!
Just after that horrible overfiling of the teeth and gum cutting the same dentist told me "we'll have to place posts in them anyway b/c they are so small now". Why did this jerk filed them to start with?? I never saw him again and moreover, he moved away from that place, -- no traces left.
But still I heard different opinions about the preps: some say, it does not matter much b/c the glue for ceramic is so strong that it will be stronger than the crown itself. If you'd want to remove a ceramic crown it will have to be filed down (not removed like a PFM, i.e. on metal). So once you get to that stage, i.e. comfy temps, look for a dentist who WILL preserve what you have in the best way!
This is my plan too.
Yes, the last molars are very critical, they give the VDO and actually direct the movement of the jaw forward. Mine are a mess too!
Your dentist who did the canines was very good and decent! As I told you: decent and competent seems to be rare together. I had the same rejection from several very good decent dentists who knew what should be done and also knew how important it is to do it right, so they were afraid to take the risk. My local dentist is the same way. I think he is very knowledgeable, very good and maybe is underestimating himself.
I think that now, with my understanding and intuition of what has to be done and basically on what would be the way to do it safely (without more nightmare surprises) this can work. I will keep you updated, of course.
[What makes me nuts is you get some guys that fight for every tooth to the point you want to say forget about it and pull it and they refuse and then you get these guys that have no qualms with messing up good tooth just to make money for themselves. ]
I completely agree with this!!
Just feel strongly that my duty now is to let people know what's behind the "nice smiles" curtains so that they will not be easy targets as we were. (BTW, I did NOT want a nice smile, I had it and did not care for the perfect white fronts as a standard toilet bowl! Still got on a hook of the well made lies).
I was even ashamed to say it that I've been walking w/o temps for several years, 3+; often cementing the fronts for a night, just to go out, rarely could do so for few days. I feel like Cinderella. Where is my prince tho?? Why don't you do the same and meet with a neighbor's friend? Few times I was even told about my "pretty smile" (and I was smiling all the time b/c could not just close the mouth without pain:D). I'd come to the car, remove it all, drive home, look at the mirror and either :D or cry.
Oh yes, in Florida I got, maybe, my worst damage to the jaw, and imagine: they rejected my 5 phone calls and two letters that I was put in emergency (couldn't sleep, eat, anything, was in horrible pain), I collected myself, flu there, just appeared in the office w/o any temps, (the fronts were broken in half and were literally falling out of my mouth when I talked at the front desk) and that "dentist" (!!) told me that he could not help me! Moreover, they have a lab on-site which was one of their big advertising points and which convinced me that they can, indeed, make me the teeth in a week! Ha-ha! For half a year I was next to unconscious from TMJ stuff until I managed again to make something for myself that I could kind of survive in. And that guy advertises himself as an expert on "complex cases" which, in some sense, mine, and yours, as I see it, are NOT! We just need it done carefully from scratch.
Brought my X-mas tree from the basement, but will be alone today at home. Went for a walk tho, the weather was so nice.
Will check other posts.
Before reading the other posts want to comment on your #5.
If a canine or other teeth turned it should not be a big deal (I have that too as a result of previous dental work). Once you get your bite then it all can be solved. I really feel strongly for your teeth like for mine: no more damage to them! We had enough!
Just after that horrible overfiling of the teeth and gum cutting the same dentist told me "we'll have to place posts in them anyway b/c they are so small now". Why did this jerk filed them to start with?? I never saw him again and moreover, he moved away from that place, -- no traces left.
But still I heard different opinions about the preps: some say, it does not matter much b/c the glue for ceramic is so strong that it will be stronger than the crown itself. If you'd want to remove a ceramic crown it will have to be filed down (not removed like a PFM, i.e. on metal). So once you get to that stage, i.e. comfy temps, look for a dentist who WILL preserve what you have in the best way!
This is my plan too.
Yes, the last molars are very critical, they give the VDO and actually direct the movement of the jaw forward. Mine are a mess too!
Your dentist who did the canines was very good and decent! As I told you: decent and competent seems to be rare together. I had the same rejection from several very good decent dentists who knew what should be done and also knew how important it is to do it right, so they were afraid to take the risk. My local dentist is the same way. I think he is very knowledgeable, very good and maybe is underestimating himself.
I think that now, with my understanding and intuition of what has to be done and basically on what would be the way to do it safely (without more nightmare surprises) this can work. I will keep you updated, of course.
[What makes me nuts is you get some guys that fight for every tooth to the point you want to say forget about it and pull it and they refuse and then you get these guys that have no qualms with messing up good tooth just to make money for themselves. ]
I completely agree with this!!
Just feel strongly that my duty now is to let people know what's behind the "nice smiles" curtains so that they will not be easy targets as we were. (BTW, I did NOT want a nice smile, I had it and did not care for the perfect white fronts as a standard toilet bowl! Still got on a hook of the well made lies).
I was even ashamed to say it that I've been walking w/o temps for several years, 3+; often cementing the fronts for a night, just to go out, rarely could do so for few days. I feel like Cinderella. Where is my prince tho?? Why don't you do the same and meet with a neighbor's friend? Few times I was even told about my "pretty smile" (and I was smiling all the time b/c could not just close the mouth without pain:D). I'd come to the car, remove it all, drive home, look at the mirror and either :D or cry.
Oh yes, in Florida I got, maybe, my worst damage to the jaw, and imagine: they rejected my 5 phone calls and two letters that I was put in emergency (couldn't sleep, eat, anything, was in horrible pain), I collected myself, flu there, just appeared in the office w/o any temps, (the fronts were broken in half and were literally falling out of my mouth when I talked at the front desk) and that "dentist" (!!) told me that he could not help me! Moreover, they have a lab on-site which was one of their big advertising points and which convinced me that they can, indeed, make me the teeth in a week! Ha-ha! For half a year I was next to unconscious from TMJ stuff until I managed again to make something for myself that I could kind of survive in. And that guy advertises himself as an expert on "complex cases" which, in some sense, mine, and yours, as I see it, are NOT! We just need it done carefully from scratch.
Brought my X-mas tree from the basement, but will be alone today at home. Went for a walk tho, the weather was so nice.
Will check other posts.
StillHope
12-25-2008, 09:14 PM
LTC, they CAN make a fake gum, no prob! They can use pink ceramic (or any color you want:D). I was even suggested by my friend to do so when it will come to the finals. Don't want it tho.
From my observations, when my head is leaning to the left the left side is lower, then naturally, the right tenses up to keep the extra weight of the falling head.
However, I'd suggest a better way to find out, as I mentioned before. Hate repeating BUT remove everything ( I mean the teeth :D) you can. Stand in front of the mirror, both feet flat (can you??), shoulder width, and do nothing; close your eyes at times, focus on relaxing every part that is tense. Watch to be as even as you can, breathe. Move the jaw up and down (on imaginary food) while the head is straight.Then place your teeth in and slowly bite. The side that will touch first is obviously higher. Notice where.
TL, [My dentist says there is a way to know the correct vertical for a person - I myself can find it when I open my mouth slowly and just let my jaw hang freely - I can feel everything relax.]
You are very correct. WE can FEEL IT ourselves! No one else can.
Tho, this is not the height when you just drop the jaw down! The VDO is where you jaw wants to "stop" or "bite" on imaginary food, i.e. you close your jaw to the length of your chewing muscles-- the ones on the sides of the cheeks, and not over close them to make wrinkles all over your face (know all about it!).
It's very difficult to trace the relations of the whole body, like leg lengths, etc, b/c it is all twisted, and is compensating for the bite.
First of all, get it all relaxed. At times, I had one hip go up and one leg to seem shorter, then other times, the other way around.
Guys, how much time (and money) do you spend on one chiro visit (from your door to door)? Two hours? Take this time and just take care of your body yourself (at least once). Stand up, let all your parts move and get loose, just "wiggle" it all, shake, stretch if you want. Just do what YOUR BODY would tell you to do. No pain, no trying to make it do smth.!! Watch it after 2 hours. Pay the chiro fee to yourself!!)
From my observations, when my head is leaning to the left the left side is lower, then naturally, the right tenses up to keep the extra weight of the falling head.
However, I'd suggest a better way to find out, as I mentioned before. Hate repeating BUT remove everything ( I mean the teeth :D) you can. Stand in front of the mirror, both feet flat (can you??), shoulder width, and do nothing; close your eyes at times, focus on relaxing every part that is tense. Watch to be as even as you can, breathe. Move the jaw up and down (on imaginary food) while the head is straight.Then place your teeth in and slowly bite. The side that will touch first is obviously higher. Notice where.
TL, [My dentist says there is a way to know the correct vertical for a person - I myself can find it when I open my mouth slowly and just let my jaw hang freely - I can feel everything relax.]
You are very correct. WE can FEEL IT ourselves! No one else can.
Tho, this is not the height when you just drop the jaw down! The VDO is where you jaw wants to "stop" or "bite" on imaginary food, i.e. you close your jaw to the length of your chewing muscles-- the ones on the sides of the cheeks, and not over close them to make wrinkles all over your face (know all about it!).
It's very difficult to trace the relations of the whole body, like leg lengths, etc, b/c it is all twisted, and is compensating for the bite.
First of all, get it all relaxed. At times, I had one hip go up and one leg to seem shorter, then other times, the other way around.
Guys, how much time (and money) do you spend on one chiro visit (from your door to door)? Two hours? Take this time and just take care of your body yourself (at least once). Stand up, let all your parts move and get loose, just "wiggle" it all, shake, stretch if you want. Just do what YOUR BODY would tell you to do. No pain, no trying to make it do smth.!! Watch it after 2 hours. Pay the chiro fee to yourself!!)
luvtocamp
12-26-2008, 10:28 AM
HI- hope yous had a nice Xmas. Xmas eve had a couple friends over, after a couple hours of talking that was enough for me.
Stillhope- I need to go to the osteo as my dentist won't adjust my bite unless she tells him- they work together. I love my osteo as she is so great with the body,and I wouldn't trust anyone else to work on me after her, and she only works with my dentist which leaves me in a catch 22 kinda.
I know my R. side is hitting first, and either that is because the partial is not seated on my gum properly or the pink stuff way in the back is hitting, the part without teeth and he has shaved that down,, but I feel it may still be hitting.
My left lower partial is missing the back molar which bothers my ear on that side, they either put my tops a little to far forward or they put too small of molars on the partial either way my last molar on that side is about 1/2 inch in front of my retromolar pad and on the other side its about 1/4" in front of it,plus the molar on the left is shorter.
So yes you are right my left side is lower and something is not fitting right on the right side.
Boy you and TL has sure got a lot of the same thing going on. Yous could almost ditto each others posts.
I know what you mean by bite changing the body, the muscles tighten all up and yes my hips are off or at times one feels forward. now my tailbone hurts
:dizzy:
if only dentist could feel how the bite changes our bodies, but most dentist haven't been through it, as most are kids of dentist's I find and they have good teeth. Dentists tend to run in families don't you find?
TL= how was yesterday, good I hope. Cheesecake again!!!!! I bet your family just looks forward to your cheesecakes, too bad you can't start a cheesecake business!! Did you stay long?
Stillhope: How do we find a dentist? I was thinking maybe one thats been in practice for 10 years, up on all the new advances but now in practice so long the main thing on their mind is retirement. I read dentist have a high suicide rate. Also someone that is caring , willing to listen, etc. they all seem caring and that at first. Would just a general dentist be best? Who in the world knows.
As for me I'm glad the holidays are coming to an end.
Stillhope- I need to go to the osteo as my dentist won't adjust my bite unless she tells him- they work together. I love my osteo as she is so great with the body,and I wouldn't trust anyone else to work on me after her, and she only works with my dentist which leaves me in a catch 22 kinda.
I know my R. side is hitting first, and either that is because the partial is not seated on my gum properly or the pink stuff way in the back is hitting, the part without teeth and he has shaved that down,, but I feel it may still be hitting.
My left lower partial is missing the back molar which bothers my ear on that side, they either put my tops a little to far forward or they put too small of molars on the partial either way my last molar on that side is about 1/2 inch in front of my retromolar pad and on the other side its about 1/4" in front of it,plus the molar on the left is shorter.
So yes you are right my left side is lower and something is not fitting right on the right side.
Boy you and TL has sure got a lot of the same thing going on. Yous could almost ditto each others posts.
I know what you mean by bite changing the body, the muscles tighten all up and yes my hips are off or at times one feels forward. now my tailbone hurts
:dizzy:
if only dentist could feel how the bite changes our bodies, but most dentist haven't been through it, as most are kids of dentist's I find and they have good teeth. Dentists tend to run in families don't you find?
TL= how was yesterday, good I hope. Cheesecake again!!!!! I bet your family just looks forward to your cheesecakes, too bad you can't start a cheesecake business!! Did you stay long?
Stillhope: How do we find a dentist? I was thinking maybe one thats been in practice for 10 years, up on all the new advances but now in practice so long the main thing on their mind is retirement. I read dentist have a high suicide rate. Also someone that is caring , willing to listen, etc. they all seem caring and that at first. Would just a general dentist be best? Who in the world knows.
As for me I'm glad the holidays are coming to an end.
Thelma-Louise
12-26-2008, 02:28 PM
I'm glad the holidays are almost over too - I usually do a New Year's day dinner as me and my 2 other sisters rotate the holidays but I couldn't do anything the last few years - and then last year I was a feeling a bit better and did New Years day and realized it was just too much for me - so I didn't want to do it this year - but yesterday all my neices were disappointed when I said I wasn't going to have it and asked what if we just did a chip in dinner and eat on paper plates - nothing formal - so I said OK - but I am living up to my end of the agreement and not going to have anything elaborate - I am really not up to it. Yesterday was Ok - a long day as we got there around 2 and didn't get home to 11pm - at one point I went to find my sister to see if we would be leaving soon - and sat down when she said "in a few minutes" - and fell asleeep for an hour - she said she didn't want to wake me. I slept in this morning until 11am as well - I just so feel so tired and worn out. I meant to take some cheescake home with me and forgot.
I too find I need the chiro - when compared to all the dentists I have been to - I credit the 3 I have used over the years, as well as the PT therapy and cranial sacral therapy, with at least making my symptoms more bearable or tolerable. Whereas no they won't correct the bite problem - they do address the affects the bite problems are having on my body - and any relief is better than nothing.
At one point Stillhope I was practically bed ridden - my head was tilted forward and to the side, one hip was further forward than the other and my back was twisted so walking was difficult at best - trying to straighten up caused more pain plus it induced facial spasms. My hands and arms were numb and the top of my head tingled and I ws getting muscle twitching in my calves and a full body jerk whenever I tried to relax laying down. I was nauseous all the time and lost 35 lbs in 4 months. I looked like death as my sister used to say - there were times I coulnd't even take a shower b/c the water felt like needles sticking me. I spent my first year crying all the time. I have come a long way from all of that at this point. In the beginning most of the therapies I was doing was covered by my insurance but now with medicare I find they are not covering it yet but I still find it is worth it. But I do agree that we need to help the body ourselves as well - which is why I went and got the 2 dogs last year - I knew they would require walks and playing with - what I didn't count on though is the mess they would make and all the vaccuming I have to do - but still even that is a form of activity that I couldn't do for a while. I don't think properly fitting teeth or a bite would have corrected the extreme torqueing my body experieinced - in fact it is why my current dentist took everything out of my mouth and sent me to a cranial chiro and told me to see him for several months before we try anything again - which is what I did until the dentist called in Sept and said he felt it was time we tried again.
LTC - how does your dentist check yuor bite to determine what is wrong - does he do pressure point testing on your arms and legs or does he rely on the carbon paper? When he checks your bite are you in a standing, sitting or lying down position? My 2nd tmj dentist used to tilt the chair so far back it felt like my legs were in the air - so at one point I told him you are making things worse and I think you need to adjust me standing - so he did - and that's when he finally got the right side to feel comfortable - but the left side was a disaster - the teeth just felt like they were "placed" or positioned all wrong - he even said it himself - no matter what he did he couldn't get the left side teeth to meet - I had what he called a lateral overbite.
I am very glad you did have some friends over. I am the same the way with talking - a couple hours is all I can handle and then I either start to spasm or my face starts to ache and pull to one side and then my neck will start feeling strained as well - and then I start losing my ability to focus on the conversation. Some days I am just not up to "pretending" things are OK or better. Doesn't make it easy to socialize very much or even just chat on the phone for a bit. This is the only place I get to do any of that these days - LOL.
I too find I need the chiro - when compared to all the dentists I have been to - I credit the 3 I have used over the years, as well as the PT therapy and cranial sacral therapy, with at least making my symptoms more bearable or tolerable. Whereas no they won't correct the bite problem - they do address the affects the bite problems are having on my body - and any relief is better than nothing.
At one point Stillhope I was practically bed ridden - my head was tilted forward and to the side, one hip was further forward than the other and my back was twisted so walking was difficult at best - trying to straighten up caused more pain plus it induced facial spasms. My hands and arms were numb and the top of my head tingled and I ws getting muscle twitching in my calves and a full body jerk whenever I tried to relax laying down. I was nauseous all the time and lost 35 lbs in 4 months. I looked like death as my sister used to say - there were times I coulnd't even take a shower b/c the water felt like needles sticking me. I spent my first year crying all the time. I have come a long way from all of that at this point. In the beginning most of the therapies I was doing was covered by my insurance but now with medicare I find they are not covering it yet but I still find it is worth it. But I do agree that we need to help the body ourselves as well - which is why I went and got the 2 dogs last year - I knew they would require walks and playing with - what I didn't count on though is the mess they would make and all the vaccuming I have to do - but still even that is a form of activity that I couldn't do for a while. I don't think properly fitting teeth or a bite would have corrected the extreme torqueing my body experieinced - in fact it is why my current dentist took everything out of my mouth and sent me to a cranial chiro and told me to see him for several months before we try anything again - which is what I did until the dentist called in Sept and said he felt it was time we tried again.
LTC - how does your dentist check yuor bite to determine what is wrong - does he do pressure point testing on your arms and legs or does he rely on the carbon paper? When he checks your bite are you in a standing, sitting or lying down position? My 2nd tmj dentist used to tilt the chair so far back it felt like my legs were in the air - so at one point I told him you are making things worse and I think you need to adjust me standing - so he did - and that's when he finally got the right side to feel comfortable - but the left side was a disaster - the teeth just felt like they were "placed" or positioned all wrong - he even said it himself - no matter what he did he couldn't get the left side teeth to meet - I had what he called a lateral overbite.
I am very glad you did have some friends over. I am the same the way with talking - a couple hours is all I can handle and then I either start to spasm or my face starts to ache and pull to one side and then my neck will start feeling strained as well - and then I start losing my ability to focus on the conversation. Some days I am just not up to "pretending" things are OK or better. Doesn't make it easy to socialize very much or even just chat on the phone for a bit. This is the only place I get to do any of that these days - LOL.
luvtocamp
12-26-2008, 05:15 PM
He uses carbon paper as I'm sitting mostly upright in the chair, how bout your present dentist? (also after he reads the osteo's note!!)
Hey don't blame you for sleeping in, after your long day. Sounds like New Years Day is going to be another.
Most times when I wake from sleeping I almost forget I have this whatever it is, then reality sets in and I just feel like going back to sleep. Its too bad we aren't enjoying the holidays. Yep, even talking on the phone can be a pain.
Hey don't blame you for sleeping in, after your long day. Sounds like New Years Day is going to be another.
Most times when I wake from sleeping I almost forget I have this whatever it is, then reality sets in and I just feel like going back to sleep. Its too bad we aren't enjoying the holidays. Yep, even talking on the phone can be a pain.
Thelma-Louise
12-26-2008, 07:37 PM
Yeah - if I wake up and my meds have worn off I sometimes can not just lay in bed and relax - my jaw will start flitting about and I just start to get real anxious about it so I jump out of bed - even if its just to go sit on the couch. I think what keeps happening is I am really not sleeping well and after several days it all catches up with me and Ijust crash out of shear exhaustion.
My dentist uses pressure point testing only - but remember my splints have never really fit in correctly - so more often than not he puts this paste on the upper plate that lets him see where my tongue is hitting - or not hitting - and since they don't fit well - I am really not able to grind the carbon paper since I generally can't even close my mouth with them on. I am wondering though if carbon paper alone can detect that you are hitting earlier on one side than the other - or if it merely just points out "spots" that hit more than other spots. Can it determine that a whole side is longer - from what you describe you have more than just intereference with certain spots being longer, right? Has he ever used a dental "ruler" to measure the length from the upper gum to lower gum in the back from side to side when you are in a closed position? Has he ever just put them on an articlulator and discussed them with you - so you can point to where your problem is, etc?
My dentist uses pressure point testing only - but remember my splints have never really fit in correctly - so more often than not he puts this paste on the upper plate that lets him see where my tongue is hitting - or not hitting - and since they don't fit well - I am really not able to grind the carbon paper since I generally can't even close my mouth with them on. I am wondering though if carbon paper alone can detect that you are hitting earlier on one side than the other - or if it merely just points out "spots" that hit more than other spots. Can it determine that a whole side is longer - from what you describe you have more than just intereference with certain spots being longer, right? Has he ever used a dental "ruler" to measure the length from the upper gum to lower gum in the back from side to side when you are in a closed position? Has he ever just put them on an articlulator and discussed them with you - so you can point to where your problem is, etc?
luvtocamp
12-26-2008, 08:11 PM
Yes your dentist tests the muscles same as the dentist I seen,
well I don't think carbon paper is that accurate, it shows where a heavy bite may be when you bite down real hard more of a mark is made ya know. I do tell him but he goes by the mark, but when you bite down hard with dentures there is movement, not the same as real teeth. And then of course what the osteo says!!
Ya know, I get so upset over all this, you almost feel like your life is over , at least thats the way I've been feeling. Will I ever be comfortable with dentures again, and eat and talk normal and get rid of the body pain. I know I'm a downer, but I'd like to know excately how much bone I have left, make sure you keep those bottom molars, that will be your life saver to keep the bone in your lower jaw.
Have you been through memopause yet , I have around 5 years ago and I never took any replacement as I had no memopause symptoms like some women and I just though it was un-natural, but maybe I should have.
I hope we can get some good results soon.
well I don't think carbon paper is that accurate, it shows where a heavy bite may be when you bite down real hard more of a mark is made ya know. I do tell him but he goes by the mark, but when you bite down hard with dentures there is movement, not the same as real teeth. And then of course what the osteo says!!
Ya know, I get so upset over all this, you almost feel like your life is over , at least thats the way I've been feeling. Will I ever be comfortable with dentures again, and eat and talk normal and get rid of the body pain. I know I'm a downer, but I'd like to know excately how much bone I have left, make sure you keep those bottom molars, that will be your life saver to keep the bone in your lower jaw.
Have you been through memopause yet , I have around 5 years ago and I never took any replacement as I had no memopause symptoms like some women and I just though it was un-natural, but maybe I should have.
I hope we can get some good results soon.
StillHope
12-26-2008, 08:17 PM
LTC: We certainly need to do whatever makes us feel better! If you like your osteo hold on to her. I had countless massages as this made my jaw relax if even for a short time. I had the same with osteo too. Once when I got up from his couch I felt so aligned, so great, clear head, etc. Saw exactly where my jaw wanted to bite, the VDO, everything. But very shortly, maybe after the first meal or sleep it all went to where it was: head to one side, one leg tight, right hip forward, foot out and so on. The teeth lead and win!
What I was saying that we have to learn how it feels to be relaxed and find our bite ourselves by any means.
I have the ear pain when that side goes forward too much, it agrees with your left ear pain description. There is no contact, so the jaw moves forward on that side by 1/4 inch more than the other one and you have pain.
[I read dentist have a high suicide rate.]
Sometimes this is my "consolation" :D
[Stillhope: How do we find a dentist?... Also someone that is caring , willing to listen, etc. they all seem caring and that at first. Would just a general dentist be best?]
That's a tough questiont!! I tried the ones with high degrees and famous institute trainings, prosthodontists, NM, from friends, general, what not... My summary is that he has to be: a) Decent -- otherwise he will skillfully ruin the rest of your teeth to make more $. b) Competent in occlusion. General dentists usually are not! Even if they know the theory they have no tools, no good lab, not much experience since they do easy jobs most of the time. c) Caring or responsible, willing to spend time and attention to your jaw comfort. Basically, this is a combination of the previous a) and b).
Having a referral from a dentist or someone is certainly helpful. Ask any Dr. whom you consulted for your TMJ or for anything else and whom you like if they know a good dentist. Another option is to see a general dr by recommendation of a good friend and then ask that dr about a specialist for you.
Well, I tried all that too!! Had some very good ones but they were afraid to "ruin their excellent records" by taking my case-- too risky.
Basically, learn to TRUST your intuition! Yes, on the first "date" they are all "one better than the other". Try to come in again before starting anything major. They usually "relax" by then and show who they are!
Frankly, without any underestimation of your symptoms I think that for you a decent dentist who knows the bite equilibration should work pretty well. Also I can repeat that the ones who at least studied what we need are with the trainings in Dawson, Pankey or KOIS institutes (this is from a good dentist's suggestion).
From my understanding, for TL (and me) it can be more tricky since we lost the VDO as well and our planes are so crooked, plus the disks are not even due to the long standing skew to one side.
TL, that's a great question too: [how does your dentist check yuor bite to determine what is wrong - does he do pressure point testing on your arms and legs or does he rely on the carbon paper? When he checks your bite are you in a standing, sitting or lying down position? ]
[My 2nd tmj dentist used to tilt the chair so far back it felt like my legs were in the air... I had what he called a lateral overbite.]
That's again exactly my situation!! I start suffocating, choking, burping, can't swallow when they place me upside down; but despite all the warnings they still do, maybe just to see how it is! Often I have to "undo" it for few days afterward while being in pain and all the rest.
I think that standing is the best for me b/c this is how I will have to touch my teeth 2,000/days when I swallow. Besides, this is when I can relax my spine better and be straight. Also it relates better to their position of lying straight. Even if I want to move my jaw a bit when sitting this should be accommodated later.
I believe that what we have is from the severe loss of VDO on the last molars! I used to be fine sleeping on my back with no pillows (now sleep on a bunch of them from all over my head).
I often have the same jaw crossing the lower arch when my jaw is traumatized , either by dentists or by my own attempts to try on something wrong. It goes with pain in the joint too. I am not sure whether this is a disk which slips or gets stuck, or just muscles. My tmj surgeon told me that whatever it is you have to get your comfy bite allowing the jaw to go to the side if it wants, no restrictions of freedom. He said that once I will have a stable occlusion for a while the jaw will relax, the disk will go where it has to go and all will be ok. Then I might need to readjust the temps, but nothing radical before that.
This is why I believe now that no irremovable quick-fix horseshoes will work well for me.
[Some days I am just not up to "pretending" things are OK or better. ]
Same here!! Had the amount of crying in these years larger than during my previous life all together. Was nearly bed ridden too, once after a jaw manipulation was told by a friend staying here that I looked green and she worried that I won't make it through the night. Hands, toes numb, pinched nerve in the neck after the first dental work on my backs, nauseous -- know all about that too!:wave:
What I was saying that we have to learn how it feels to be relaxed and find our bite ourselves by any means.
I have the ear pain when that side goes forward too much, it agrees with your left ear pain description. There is no contact, so the jaw moves forward on that side by 1/4 inch more than the other one and you have pain.
[I read dentist have a high suicide rate.]
Sometimes this is my "consolation" :D
[Stillhope: How do we find a dentist?... Also someone that is caring , willing to listen, etc. they all seem caring and that at first. Would just a general dentist be best?]
That's a tough questiont!! I tried the ones with high degrees and famous institute trainings, prosthodontists, NM, from friends, general, what not... My summary is that he has to be: a) Decent -- otherwise he will skillfully ruin the rest of your teeth to make more $. b) Competent in occlusion. General dentists usually are not! Even if they know the theory they have no tools, no good lab, not much experience since they do easy jobs most of the time. c) Caring or responsible, willing to spend time and attention to your jaw comfort. Basically, this is a combination of the previous a) and b).
Having a referral from a dentist or someone is certainly helpful. Ask any Dr. whom you consulted for your TMJ or for anything else and whom you like if they know a good dentist. Another option is to see a general dr by recommendation of a good friend and then ask that dr about a specialist for you.
Well, I tried all that too!! Had some very good ones but they were afraid to "ruin their excellent records" by taking my case-- too risky.
Basically, learn to TRUST your intuition! Yes, on the first "date" they are all "one better than the other". Try to come in again before starting anything major. They usually "relax" by then and show who they are!
Frankly, without any underestimation of your symptoms I think that for you a decent dentist who knows the bite equilibration should work pretty well. Also I can repeat that the ones who at least studied what we need are with the trainings in Dawson, Pankey or KOIS institutes (this is from a good dentist's suggestion).
From my understanding, for TL (and me) it can be more tricky since we lost the VDO as well and our planes are so crooked, plus the disks are not even due to the long standing skew to one side.
TL, that's a great question too: [how does your dentist check yuor bite to determine what is wrong - does he do pressure point testing on your arms and legs or does he rely on the carbon paper? When he checks your bite are you in a standing, sitting or lying down position? ]
[My 2nd tmj dentist used to tilt the chair so far back it felt like my legs were in the air... I had what he called a lateral overbite.]
That's again exactly my situation!! I start suffocating, choking, burping, can't swallow when they place me upside down; but despite all the warnings they still do, maybe just to see how it is! Often I have to "undo" it for few days afterward while being in pain and all the rest.
I think that standing is the best for me b/c this is how I will have to touch my teeth 2,000/days when I swallow. Besides, this is when I can relax my spine better and be straight. Also it relates better to their position of lying straight. Even if I want to move my jaw a bit when sitting this should be accommodated later.
I believe that what we have is from the severe loss of VDO on the last molars! I used to be fine sleeping on my back with no pillows (now sleep on a bunch of them from all over my head).
I often have the same jaw crossing the lower arch when my jaw is traumatized , either by dentists or by my own attempts to try on something wrong. It goes with pain in the joint too. I am not sure whether this is a disk which slips or gets stuck, or just muscles. My tmj surgeon told me that whatever it is you have to get your comfy bite allowing the jaw to go to the side if it wants, no restrictions of freedom. He said that once I will have a stable occlusion for a while the jaw will relax, the disk will go where it has to go and all will be ok. Then I might need to readjust the temps, but nothing radical before that.
This is why I believe now that no irremovable quick-fix horseshoes will work well for me.
[Some days I am just not up to "pretending" things are OK or better. ]
Same here!! Had the amount of crying in these years larger than during my previous life all together. Was nearly bed ridden too, once after a jaw manipulation was told by a friend staying here that I looked green and she worried that I won't make it through the night. Hands, toes numb, pinched nerve in the neck after the first dental work on my backs, nauseous -- know all about that too!:wave:
luvtocamp
12-27-2008, 11:03 AM
Having you lay way back in the chair maybe great if you spend your days on your back, but we sit up and eat. Yes they should check it standing too I think, but at least sitting up in a chair like you would be at a table. Most dentist have you laying down tho and then like to push your jaw back.
Oh I can feel the one side is low and other high, thats why one side of my body is tight and the one ear is acting up. After going thru this for so long we kinda know whats happening. They need to Listen to the Patient!
Stillhope- your right about the body treatments, feel right when one leaves, but without stable occlusion, the body quickly gets out of alignment.
My neuro recommeded this dentist to me and a few dentist in my area recommended him. but he has yet to help me and I am started to feel its because he listens more to the osteo than me, he is nice and I do like him but I just don't know.
Sometimes when I have gone to a dental office and everything is brand new and beautiful and they offer nails done why you wait and spa treatment I just feel its overkill, and we have those offices here.
Acutally the most caring dentist was my fist tmj one, but he believes in the jaw back and only the front teeth need to touch which isn't good with dentures either, but his office was like no decorating or remodeling had been done for a long time, but he was caring,. maybe I should go back to him and tell him what I need, and hes close by. His dentures fit good but held my jaw back, hes the one that had me in an anterior top splint- bout did me in.
Stillhope- I could go back and reread posts, but what teeth do you have left? sounds like you have a upper front bridge.
Oh I can feel the one side is low and other high, thats why one side of my body is tight and the one ear is acting up. After going thru this for so long we kinda know whats happening. They need to Listen to the Patient!
Stillhope- your right about the body treatments, feel right when one leaves, but without stable occlusion, the body quickly gets out of alignment.
My neuro recommeded this dentist to me and a few dentist in my area recommended him. but he has yet to help me and I am started to feel its because he listens more to the osteo than me, he is nice and I do like him but I just don't know.
Sometimes when I have gone to a dental office and everything is brand new and beautiful and they offer nails done why you wait and spa treatment I just feel its overkill, and we have those offices here.
Acutally the most caring dentist was my fist tmj one, but he believes in the jaw back and only the front teeth need to touch which isn't good with dentures either, but his office was like no decorating or remodeling had been done for a long time, but he was caring,. maybe I should go back to him and tell him what I need, and hes close by. His dentures fit good but held my jaw back, hes the one that had me in an anterior top splint- bout did me in.
Stillhope- I could go back and reread posts, but what teeth do you have left? sounds like you have a upper front bridge.
Thelma-Louise
12-27-2008, 12:22 PM
One dr I went to in the beggining - the guy who had done my implants but was too afraid to try and restore my bite - when I told him my current tmj dentist was adjusting my bite with me laying down with my feet raised above me said that for those with a natural posteria bite that bite first on the back teeth and then bring their lower jaw up to meet the front - that the bite needed to be adjusted in a upright position to allow the back to hit first otherwise they would end up with an open posteria bite. It made sense to me and that is what made me ask my then current tmj dentist to do that - once the right side settled down I knew that was part of my problem - unfortunately when he could not get the left side to meet right - he started lowering the upper right side and I went right back into a tailspin - I asked him why he lowered the right when it was obvious the upper left side did not meet b/c it was not long enough and I got the "blank stare" and that's when I decided to leave and try someone else. What's sad is that that was the closest I got to correcting this whole thing and I just wish at this point I could go back and take little peices of what each dentist I have been treated by did and put them all together b/c they each did one thing "different" but correctly - it was never the same thing though - and unfortnately what was good with one dentist became undone by another - but then the next guy got something else to feel good, and so on.
LTC - the very first "tmj" dentist I went to was like the spa you mention - hand waxing, neck massages, plasma tv and recliners in the waiting room with gourmet coffee and croissants. Every exam room had flat screen tvs which is what bothered me most - the dr and and his assts would be paying more attn to the tv than me so I would insist they shut it off every time I was there - plus I was so miserable at the time even the sound of the tv bothered me - I just never saw all of that as a red flag b/c I was so impressed by his web site and the book he had written, etc. I was just a babe in the woods regarding my knowledge of tmj and dentistry back then even though I had had a lot of previous dental work done. You think I would have been wiser.
What's ironic is that the drs I would like to take my case on - b/c I can tell they listen to me and are willing to go slow and do what you want and will keep it simple and not make it into such a complex case over analyzing things - they are not willing to try it - and I often feel that is all I need too - a competent dentist to do just what I ask him to do and leave his textbook training and his preferences and assumptions at the door.
LTC - the very first "tmj" dentist I went to was like the spa you mention - hand waxing, neck massages, plasma tv and recliners in the waiting room with gourmet coffee and croissants. Every exam room had flat screen tvs which is what bothered me most - the dr and and his assts would be paying more attn to the tv than me so I would insist they shut it off every time I was there - plus I was so miserable at the time even the sound of the tv bothered me - I just never saw all of that as a red flag b/c I was so impressed by his web site and the book he had written, etc. I was just a babe in the woods regarding my knowledge of tmj and dentistry back then even though I had had a lot of previous dental work done. You think I would have been wiser.
What's ironic is that the drs I would like to take my case on - b/c I can tell they listen to me and are willing to go slow and do what you want and will keep it simple and not make it into such a complex case over analyzing things - they are not willing to try it - and I often feel that is all I need too - a competent dentist to do just what I ask him to do and leave his textbook training and his preferences and assumptions at the door.
luvtocamp
12-27-2008, 05:49 PM
Yes I forgot about the tv's in the rooms, hate them. Its like trying to talk over something and like when they are on they are not fully concentrating on what you are saying. I don't like background sound. I like it quiet. If I wanted to watch tv I'd stay home.
Then theres the neck massage, the last thing I need is a dental assistant playing around with my neck!!
What we need is a dentist that Listens to his patients. I like mine but he puts more stock into what the osteo says than I do, and the teeth are in my mouth. Only we know how we feel.
I agree there are some dentist that are not really trained to work on us. Knowing what I know now, I want them to at least have 10 years of experience under their belt.
It'd be nice to find one that wears dentures , but thats not going to happen, could you imagine a dentist with dentures- ha ha, theres probably at least one in the world somewhere tho, but he would probably have the implant supported denture and wouldn't admit it-.
I do believe that most dentist have a certain way they approach tmj and do the same treatment for every patient, some use ant. upper splints and some the lower, but the problem is we are all so different.
:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::confused::confused ::confused::(:eek::eek::eek::eek:
just how I feel.
Then theres the neck massage, the last thing I need is a dental assistant playing around with my neck!!
What we need is a dentist that Listens to his patients. I like mine but he puts more stock into what the osteo says than I do, and the teeth are in my mouth. Only we know how we feel.
I agree there are some dentist that are not really trained to work on us. Knowing what I know now, I want them to at least have 10 years of experience under their belt.
It'd be nice to find one that wears dentures , but thats not going to happen, could you imagine a dentist with dentures- ha ha, theres probably at least one in the world somewhere tho, but he would probably have the implant supported denture and wouldn't admit it-.
I do believe that most dentist have a certain way they approach tmj and do the same treatment for every patient, some use ant. upper splints and some the lower, but the problem is we are all so different.
:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy::confused::confused ::confused::(:eek::eek::eek::eek:
just how I feel.
StillHope
12-28-2008, 02:57 AM
I totally agree with both of you about the spa, tv, even saw/tested a heated toilet!! I try to stay away from those. When I ask to turn a tv off (it was in a NM office) they looked at me as if I was crazy. Surely, it's good for them if a patient does not notice what is with his/her teeth and they "can put anything in their mouths". In fact, I heard this very phrase from a few dentists almost bragging that this works (but not with me to their frustration). Well, "get used to this" worked with me long ago and it ruined my disk on one side.
I also stay away from those advertising "sedation treatment", again they
just don't want you to understand and feel what a lousy job will be done.
LTC, I have several temp bridges except for the lower fronts which eventually will have to be raised somehow b/c of raising the VDO and my open bite. Since they still don't know by how much to raise until I will be comfy, I try to preserve them w/o filing down. It makes it more difficult for them to work but they mess it up anyway, easy or not.
TL, I can't stop amazing that you write it all in my words!
I had it almost comfy few times just to have it totally undone and worse by the next dentist!! Few times I said this to a new dentist hoping to encourage him but it only made him puzzled why then it was not finished and he rejected me. Oh, yah, same about those who understand the best don't want to take my case!
I agree that we just need the one to trust us!!
LTC, seems like your current dentist is listening to your osteo. Can you ask her to tell him about one of your sides being lower? Or ask your dentist to try this just "for you". Well, I know it's not easy, they might mess it up to "prove" that you were not right...
TL, thanks for the comment from your dentist about the BR while standing. I came up to this myself but have a hard time convincing dentists that this is what I need.
Can you tell your current dentist that when the right side was higher you felt almost good and ask him to raise it all? I realized that they really do not see much themselves!! So if we can hint to them (in a way that a woman has to hint to a guy to get him do this!! -- I am not very good at this tho, maybe yet??;)) maybe they can do what we feel will work?!
So I am going to try to work with my regular "old" dentist who saw my cracked front crowns and felt very sorry for me. He refused to commit to doing my case but is willing to do small jobs when I ask (a filling, a model, etc.). We'll see if he will replace the last molar pair well then I will try to think of other small jobs to get some improvement gradually.
Am really afraid now to have it all at once, tho if done precisely this would be certainly the best way to do it.
BTW, TL why those horseshoes from NY did not work besides being too tight? Also maybe I missed it, why did they take the implants out? There was a tongue problem? Couldn't they just change the caps of the implants??
Oh, I think that before becoming educated by your posts I was underestimating the role of the tongue. Had some "experiment" today:
placed the lower back bridge and tried to keep the jaw relaxed. That side started moving in a few seconds trying to find the last molar which it cannot touch no matter what; the muscle went into a spasm and the jaw, face got skewed. I though that this only happens when you bite on the wrong contact. NO! It happens right away when the tongue feels that there is a chance to make the teeth touch, so the jaw turns (which hurts) but is still looking for that contact like a magnet!!
I also stay away from those advertising "sedation treatment", again they
just don't want you to understand and feel what a lousy job will be done.
LTC, I have several temp bridges except for the lower fronts which eventually will have to be raised somehow b/c of raising the VDO and my open bite. Since they still don't know by how much to raise until I will be comfy, I try to preserve them w/o filing down. It makes it more difficult for them to work but they mess it up anyway, easy or not.
TL, I can't stop amazing that you write it all in my words!
I had it almost comfy few times just to have it totally undone and worse by the next dentist!! Few times I said this to a new dentist hoping to encourage him but it only made him puzzled why then it was not finished and he rejected me. Oh, yah, same about those who understand the best don't want to take my case!
I agree that we just need the one to trust us!!
LTC, seems like your current dentist is listening to your osteo. Can you ask her to tell him about one of your sides being lower? Or ask your dentist to try this just "for you". Well, I know it's not easy, they might mess it up to "prove" that you were not right...
TL, thanks for the comment from your dentist about the BR while standing. I came up to this myself but have a hard time convincing dentists that this is what I need.
Can you tell your current dentist that when the right side was higher you felt almost good and ask him to raise it all? I realized that they really do not see much themselves!! So if we can hint to them (in a way that a woman has to hint to a guy to get him do this!! -- I am not very good at this tho, maybe yet??;)) maybe they can do what we feel will work?!
So I am going to try to work with my regular "old" dentist who saw my cracked front crowns and felt very sorry for me. He refused to commit to doing my case but is willing to do small jobs when I ask (a filling, a model, etc.). We'll see if he will replace the last molar pair well then I will try to think of other small jobs to get some improvement gradually.
Am really afraid now to have it all at once, tho if done precisely this would be certainly the best way to do it.
BTW, TL why those horseshoes from NY did not work besides being too tight? Also maybe I missed it, why did they take the implants out? There was a tongue problem? Couldn't they just change the caps of the implants??
Oh, I think that before becoming educated by your posts I was underestimating the role of the tongue. Had some "experiment" today:
placed the lower back bridge and tried to keep the jaw relaxed. That side started moving in a few seconds trying to find the last molar which it cannot touch no matter what; the muscle went into a spasm and the jaw, face got skewed. I though that this only happens when you bite on the wrong contact. NO! It happens right away when the tongue feels that there is a chance to make the teeth touch, so the jaw turns (which hurts) but is still looking for that contact like a magnet!!
luvtocamp
12-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Stillhope- yes I tell him but he wants to know what he chiro said, like I said he really doens't listen to me.
You say the jaw too far forward can cause ear problems, I am thinking he has me too far forward now.
How do we know where our bite is. I know alot of people only have two bottom molars ,either didn't have wisdome teeth or had them pulled.
So how many molars do you have.
I get so confused with this, my dentist says jaw forward, the other said jaw back, and one even told me in a consult that the jaw should be back, theres nothing behind it but bone, but thats not true, there are nerves and blood vessels behind it.
I think your right taking it slow and doing a little at a time. big changes are hard to adapt to. I don't know how some people go and get the immediate load dentures in a day done that have gone without back teeth for so long.
I'm getting the impression , getting tmj treatment just makes it worst!!!!!!!
You say the jaw too far forward can cause ear problems, I am thinking he has me too far forward now.
How do we know where our bite is. I know alot of people only have two bottom molars ,either didn't have wisdome teeth or had them pulled.
So how many molars do you have.
I get so confused with this, my dentist says jaw forward, the other said jaw back, and one even told me in a consult that the jaw should be back, theres nothing behind it but bone, but thats not true, there are nerves and blood vessels behind it.
I think your right taking it slow and doing a little at a time. big changes are hard to adapt to. I don't know how some people go and get the immediate load dentures in a day done that have gone without back teeth for so long.
I'm getting the impression , getting tmj treatment just makes it worst!!!!!!!
StillHope
12-29-2008, 12:25 AM
LTC, let's be more precise about the ear pain. What I noticed that the feeling like there are metal nails in the ears is when the jaw is too forward and the head slips out of the "socket". Basically this pain comes from the muscles which have to hold the head harder when the jaw is more forward. Just imagine this 10-12 lb "ball" out of balance on the spine. I am not sure about the feeling of ear congestion. It seems to me so far that this is more when there is too much pressure on the teeth like the VDO is too high or something. Which ear symptoms do you have?
I have only two upper last molars and one lower but it lost the cap so it's extremely low. Last September a dentist filed off the upper molar without even telling me! Others before him told me not to touch it until I will be comfy since the last molars are very essential. Now this last molar looks like a half of the letter "W"; as soon as he did that I felt like an airplane with one wing: the jaw/head are tipping over on one side. A tiny contact that I had with what's below was ruined.
Since then I am practically unable to keep my jaw pain free like I learned to do within the last months. I can do it for a day the way I described to you many times (it takes few hours for me!) but the first meal or especially the sleep brings it back to a nightmare state. The dentist told me "not to pay attention to the teeth"! What teeth ??? He did not make anything for me and made what I had before him unusable. He never offered anything to help me with the created emergency (there is much more to what he did) b/c he is even denying it to some degree.
You are right that behind the condyle there is soft tissue not "just the bone". Moreover, there is a very delicate tissue with all the blood vessels, nerves going to the brain. So when they strongly push the jaw back they might damage this tissue especially if the ligament holding the condyle is stretched or traumatized; I believe this is my case now after all those dental "experiments"; few times my excruciating jaw pain after these "jaw pushes" was accompanied for few weeks with the liquid sound; I was told they could have caused an edema behind the condyle. I was almost bed ridden each time for 2-3 weeks (just like TL mentioned).
Actually dentists supposed to "romance the mandibula" (i.e. the jaw) but to me this is more like a "rape" what they do!!:D
Where the bite is? Our jaw is not something like a dislocated shoulder which a doc has to "put back in place". If there is nothing on the way, our jaw knows itself where it should be to bite! After so much dental work our senses are messed up but the jaw still knows. So instead of telling it or allowing dentists to tell it where it should be just learn to LISTEN!
For this, one has to be quiet, calm, relaxed, in balance, and pain free.
Once you get to this position just watch where you jaw wants to close "on food". I repeat "on food" b/c the jaw will close on food with pressure while when it is just hanging relaxed it cannot take pressure. Just try gently to bite on your finger on each side and watch when it is comfy and pain free for the jaw. The fingers will make the sides more even too unlike the denture which you have unbalanced.
Repeat it at different times, different days and watch if this is the same jaw position. If it is reproducible then this is it, at least for a good start.
Hope TL will write something soon.
Oh, did you, guys, have an "anterior device" (or "anterior reprogrammer") made for your jaw to relax? I am curious since few dentists mentioned but none of them made it for me, don't know why. Maybe it's too easy and too cheap but it supposed to relax the jaw within minutes or 1/2 hour. Please, let me know if you heard about it or tried.
I have only two upper last molars and one lower but it lost the cap so it's extremely low. Last September a dentist filed off the upper molar without even telling me! Others before him told me not to touch it until I will be comfy since the last molars are very essential. Now this last molar looks like a half of the letter "W"; as soon as he did that I felt like an airplane with one wing: the jaw/head are tipping over on one side. A tiny contact that I had with what's below was ruined.
Since then I am practically unable to keep my jaw pain free like I learned to do within the last months. I can do it for a day the way I described to you many times (it takes few hours for me!) but the first meal or especially the sleep brings it back to a nightmare state. The dentist told me "not to pay attention to the teeth"! What teeth ??? He did not make anything for me and made what I had before him unusable. He never offered anything to help me with the created emergency (there is much more to what he did) b/c he is even denying it to some degree.
You are right that behind the condyle there is soft tissue not "just the bone". Moreover, there is a very delicate tissue with all the blood vessels, nerves going to the brain. So when they strongly push the jaw back they might damage this tissue especially if the ligament holding the condyle is stretched or traumatized; I believe this is my case now after all those dental "experiments"; few times my excruciating jaw pain after these "jaw pushes" was accompanied for few weeks with the liquid sound; I was told they could have caused an edema behind the condyle. I was almost bed ridden each time for 2-3 weeks (just like TL mentioned).
Actually dentists supposed to "romance the mandibula" (i.e. the jaw) but to me this is more like a "rape" what they do!!:D
Where the bite is? Our jaw is not something like a dislocated shoulder which a doc has to "put back in place". If there is nothing on the way, our jaw knows itself where it should be to bite! After so much dental work our senses are messed up but the jaw still knows. So instead of telling it or allowing dentists to tell it where it should be just learn to LISTEN!
For this, one has to be quiet, calm, relaxed, in balance, and pain free.
Once you get to this position just watch where you jaw wants to close "on food". I repeat "on food" b/c the jaw will close on food with pressure while when it is just hanging relaxed it cannot take pressure. Just try gently to bite on your finger on each side and watch when it is comfy and pain free for the jaw. The fingers will make the sides more even too unlike the denture which you have unbalanced.
Repeat it at different times, different days and watch if this is the same jaw position. If it is reproducible then this is it, at least for a good start.
Hope TL will write something soon.
Oh, did you, guys, have an "anterior device" (or "anterior reprogrammer") made for your jaw to relax? I am curious since few dentists mentioned but none of them made it for me, don't know why. Maybe it's too easy and too cheap but it supposed to relax the jaw within minutes or 1/2 hour. Please, let me know if you heard about it or tried.
Thelma-Louise
12-29-2008, 01:53 AM
Hey guys -
In answer to your questions, Stillhope -
Once I seperated the full horseshoe into separate "bridges" - that's when it became apparent that my bite was open in the back - the dentist asked why I didn't tell him when he put them on and I said its b/c I am in so much pain I can't feel anything - I was that numb from pain - so instead of lengthening the back teeth which is what I suggested he do - he shortend the front and things went from bad to worse - then he tried to raise everything up by adding acrylic everywhere and the spasms started. At one point he said "I think you have a jaw problem and I don't do those":confused:Then why do you call yourself a "tmj dr? My first rude awakening. He was a cosmetic dentist in sheeps clothing, if you ask me.
My 2nd tmj dentist felt the angle of my upper front implants was too steep and causing an overbite - personally I did not agree with him since the dentist that did them was able to attach a bridge to it without too much trouble - he went to the trouble of locating the mftr and obtaining replacement posts to see if he could alter the angle but it did not change things at all since the angle is actually determined by the base of the implant and how it is placed and eventually intergrates with the bone. After 18 mos with him I then tried a nm dentist and he had the same problem only his upper teeth actually torqued the implants and they began to hurt - when he suggested I removed them to see if that was the problem I went along with it (again almost as if to prove him wrong and spited myself) b/c once they were out he still could not get my front teeth aligned and after 5 months with him he said "sorry I can't help you" so now I had no teeth as I could not wear his at all - I had no implants to hold front bridges and only some temps for my back teeth from my 2nd dentist that would fall off every time I opened my mouth.
I am glad you have noticed the issue with your tongue - it is my biggest problem - in filing the teeth (especially the uppers) I noticed my tongue was now pulling from side to side and this in turn pulls my jaw - I can't seem to impress enough on dentists the importance of this for me as my teeth used to encase my tongue and force it forward and now it feels like it is pulled back toward my throat and I find it searches for something to lean on. I too have back teeth in which a part of the "W" is missing and have said this too often to count - it feels like half of each tooth is missing on one side, yet when dentists have tried to correct them they put the "missing side " on the outer part of the tooth toward my cheeks and not the inner side toward my tongue - its quite frustrating. They seem to think I need this "freeway" space when in fact I feel I need much less than what they keep providing. My tongue needs to feel the teeth on each side of it on the top so I can relax my jaw and go into what I feel is close to a "swallowing" position.
LTC - you know how I have found my bite quite often - I open my mouth until I feel my tm joints reach a point of feeling relaxed or like they used to feel - its just something you will recognize once you are there - I let my lower jaw just drop down a bit and slowly push my tongue forward and slightly upward, and as I do this I try and get just my back teeth to touch. Now I really can't get my teeth to touch but since one side is longer I almost make contact with one tooth on that side in the back but once I do this I swallow slightly - this forces my jaw lower jaw into the relaxed postion and if I repeat it over and over again - I feel like my bite is "restored" but I can not maintain it since my tongue keeps pulling backwards - it needs to stay pushed forward and straight for me to do this - the further back or to one side it goes the more facial spasms I get.
I tend to agree lower jaw forward - it opens the airway and allows the tongue to move forward and gives the condyles room to move and glide or function as they should - however too much can misalign the teeth or bite and over extend the joints, no? My 2nd dentist confused me the same as you LTC - first he tried to push my lower jaw backwards- it hurt like heck and yelled at him to stop doing that- I thought he was going to break it - and then a few months later he suggested I needed surgery to pull it forward.
I did try 2 upper reprogramming appliances - one was called a discluder - it raised the vertical or VOD but since my back teeth could not meet as a result it made things worse in terms of cranial pressure, ear aches, neck tightness, etc. I thought the dentist would then lengthen my back teeth but no he felt my front teeth needed to be lengthened and my back teeth not touch at all which then caused vertigo. Also when wearing it - it makes you purse your front lips together which forces your tongue forward but if your bite does not support this position once you remove it all the pain returns and it was not really something you could wear in front of people -although the dentist told me a lot of people do - it was quite bulky on the upper front teeth so you kind of look like you are doing a Jerry Lewis immitation of the wacky Professor. :D
I also tried something called a Mago ( I think) - a anterior reprogrammer that was basically a clear plastic retainer I wore on my upper front teeth - now I have no clue why - but this made me feel like I was on ice skates - I could not get my back teeth to meet but not only that - my u/l jaws felt like they were crossing each other and my canines were taking the brunt of it - they felt like they were being twisted. It was during this time I got locked open on a few occassions and then locked closed 2x and had to have trigger point injections done. When wearing this I also lost that direct contact between the sides of my teeth and my tongue that I need and I felt like I was "falling" or leaning to one side all the time.
Sorry I didn't post sooner but had to go to my sister's today as one of my neice's who couldn't make xmas with us wanted to spend some time with us - my jaw and face are killing me now - too much talking plus I drank too much spiked eggnog and my eyes feel crossed but I can't tell if that's from the eggnog or not.:dizzy:
In answer to your questions, Stillhope -
Once I seperated the full horseshoe into separate "bridges" - that's when it became apparent that my bite was open in the back - the dentist asked why I didn't tell him when he put them on and I said its b/c I am in so much pain I can't feel anything - I was that numb from pain - so instead of lengthening the back teeth which is what I suggested he do - he shortend the front and things went from bad to worse - then he tried to raise everything up by adding acrylic everywhere and the spasms started. At one point he said "I think you have a jaw problem and I don't do those":confused:Then why do you call yourself a "tmj dr? My first rude awakening. He was a cosmetic dentist in sheeps clothing, if you ask me.
My 2nd tmj dentist felt the angle of my upper front implants was too steep and causing an overbite - personally I did not agree with him since the dentist that did them was able to attach a bridge to it without too much trouble - he went to the trouble of locating the mftr and obtaining replacement posts to see if he could alter the angle but it did not change things at all since the angle is actually determined by the base of the implant and how it is placed and eventually intergrates with the bone. After 18 mos with him I then tried a nm dentist and he had the same problem only his upper teeth actually torqued the implants and they began to hurt - when he suggested I removed them to see if that was the problem I went along with it (again almost as if to prove him wrong and spited myself) b/c once they were out he still could not get my front teeth aligned and after 5 months with him he said "sorry I can't help you" so now I had no teeth as I could not wear his at all - I had no implants to hold front bridges and only some temps for my back teeth from my 2nd dentist that would fall off every time I opened my mouth.
I am glad you have noticed the issue with your tongue - it is my biggest problem - in filing the teeth (especially the uppers) I noticed my tongue was now pulling from side to side and this in turn pulls my jaw - I can't seem to impress enough on dentists the importance of this for me as my teeth used to encase my tongue and force it forward and now it feels like it is pulled back toward my throat and I find it searches for something to lean on. I too have back teeth in which a part of the "W" is missing and have said this too often to count - it feels like half of each tooth is missing on one side, yet when dentists have tried to correct them they put the "missing side " on the outer part of the tooth toward my cheeks and not the inner side toward my tongue - its quite frustrating. They seem to think I need this "freeway" space when in fact I feel I need much less than what they keep providing. My tongue needs to feel the teeth on each side of it on the top so I can relax my jaw and go into what I feel is close to a "swallowing" position.
LTC - you know how I have found my bite quite often - I open my mouth until I feel my tm joints reach a point of feeling relaxed or like they used to feel - its just something you will recognize once you are there - I let my lower jaw just drop down a bit and slowly push my tongue forward and slightly upward, and as I do this I try and get just my back teeth to touch. Now I really can't get my teeth to touch but since one side is longer I almost make contact with one tooth on that side in the back but once I do this I swallow slightly - this forces my jaw lower jaw into the relaxed postion and if I repeat it over and over again - I feel like my bite is "restored" but I can not maintain it since my tongue keeps pulling backwards - it needs to stay pushed forward and straight for me to do this - the further back or to one side it goes the more facial spasms I get.
I tend to agree lower jaw forward - it opens the airway and allows the tongue to move forward and gives the condyles room to move and glide or function as they should - however too much can misalign the teeth or bite and over extend the joints, no? My 2nd dentist confused me the same as you LTC - first he tried to push my lower jaw backwards- it hurt like heck and yelled at him to stop doing that- I thought he was going to break it - and then a few months later he suggested I needed surgery to pull it forward.
I did try 2 upper reprogramming appliances - one was called a discluder - it raised the vertical or VOD but since my back teeth could not meet as a result it made things worse in terms of cranial pressure, ear aches, neck tightness, etc. I thought the dentist would then lengthen my back teeth but no he felt my front teeth needed to be lengthened and my back teeth not touch at all which then caused vertigo. Also when wearing it - it makes you purse your front lips together which forces your tongue forward but if your bite does not support this position once you remove it all the pain returns and it was not really something you could wear in front of people -although the dentist told me a lot of people do - it was quite bulky on the upper front teeth so you kind of look like you are doing a Jerry Lewis immitation of the wacky Professor. :D
I also tried something called a Mago ( I think) - a anterior reprogrammer that was basically a clear plastic retainer I wore on my upper front teeth - now I have no clue why - but this made me feel like I was on ice skates - I could not get my back teeth to meet but not only that - my u/l jaws felt like they were crossing each other and my canines were taking the brunt of it - they felt like they were being twisted. It was during this time I got locked open on a few occassions and then locked closed 2x and had to have trigger point injections done. When wearing this I also lost that direct contact between the sides of my teeth and my tongue that I need and I felt like I was "falling" or leaning to one side all the time.
Sorry I didn't post sooner but had to go to my sister's today as one of my neice's who couldn't make xmas with us wanted to spend some time with us - my jaw and face are killing me now - too much talking plus I drank too much spiked eggnog and my eyes feel crossed but I can't tell if that's from the eggnog or not.:dizzy:
luvtocamp
12-29-2008, 10:40 AM
StillHope-( hey I like your name-everytime I write it I say to myself there is still hope)
You said " have only two upper last molars and one lower " , is that all the natural teeth you have left? I guess I'm just wondering why you haven't tried dentures around your teeth instead of bridges? Maybe they can make denture splints like TL is doing. So those three molars are holding your bridges??
Anterior splints are usually called Nti, it fits over your front teeth, the kind I had was like TL- a mago, but the dentist made it on my upper denture and only my front lower teeth touch and when I bit my jaw would slide way back. It killed me, none of my back teeth touch and it put a lot of pressure on my remaining lower front teeth which were already compromised due to bone loss ad they got sore and shifted, and then he made me dentures that held my jaw back and kinda locked in which my front teeth touched first and really made me bad. Also because of the real lower teeth hitting the top front denture teeth is caused more bone loss in the front upper area.
Now I think the mago splint may of worked on people with their own teeth, but TL is missing her fronts and I'm missing my front uppers so the pressure is really on the gums, not the teeth. but like TL- I feel the front splint caused my head problems too.
People with real teeth should have the lower teeth meet the backside of the top teeth, but not people with no front teeth!!! Wearing it has caused me combination syndrome, its something people get that wear a full upper and keep their lower front teeth and their teeth hits the front upper teeth.
The teeth my new dentist (seeing him for two years) wants my jaw forward and also no touching on my front teeth to take the pressure off my front top gum, but he sometimes overdoes it.
Problem is I feel I'm too far forward I feel so putting the upper front teeth so far forward left me with back molars which are too far forward, especially on the left side.
The left year flutters and is acting up from lack of support back there (around 1/2" or more) and the R. side my ear is gooshy , and I have ringing on that side, and my neck to the front and down my R. body is all tight. that side I feel is the high side, and I feel the parital is not seated down on my gum. Also have facial spasms both side, and a hard time talking as the R. side is high with I feel no freeway space, it holds my mouth at rest on that side.
Also because I only touch in the back the parital is putting alot of pressure on the lower fronts which they hurt and my bite slides forward and he made these dentues very tight.
also he extended the gum on the uppers and lowres way to to back of my mouth, which I hit the pink stuff way in the back.
I have a feeling that either these need to be redone, and I think its time to have the front lower pulled as it seems no-one can make my lower partial comfortable anymore it seems, as I have more bone loss next to the lower L. cuspid than I do on the right, and that is why the R. never feels seated, its like resting on the area right behind my cuspid and the retromolar pad. I'm going to get a couple consults in town with the ICAT Scan I got to see about how many mini or regular implants would be needed on the lowers (not that I want to do that either as it scares me , and invest my money that way. I don't know if I would need bone grafts or what.
OH TL- spiked eggnog, my Mom use to make eggnog. Maybe I need a few beers , its been so long, a couple years since I've had a beer. I have never drank anything but beer, and I mix that with V8 juice.
Hey guys, I see a post from a young girl, 22, and she has an ant. displaced disc, no pain, but can't open her mouth and she is having surgery done. I so feel sorry for the young people going throught this (and us) but I say to myself at least I had 50 years of life without this problem.
also I'm tired of finding rides out of town to my dentist as I'm not up to driving, to I want to find someone here that can work with me. Although I like my dentist and I know he is trying to help me (he says I'm a work in progress) but after two years I should be better so why am I traveling, but then again he knows my problems and starting with someone new is stressful. I don't know.
Splints in my opinion should only be worn a short time for dx purposes, no splints have really helped me , on the contray they all made me worst, and put undo pressure on my gums, splints on top of dentures don't work well.
Stillhope- I agree with your dentist, we shouldn't have to think about our teeth, I ask everyone where is your bite and they don't know, they have to check, that is the way we should be, but unfortunately our bites are not right. I even asked my osteo where do you chew, and she said I don't know, everywhere I guess.
There has got to be a way out of this nightmare.
a paul harvey riddle for the two of you" What is more powerful than God, more evil than the devil, the rich don't need it, the poor have it, and if you eat it you'll die"
Gee I wrote a book!! Maybe I should write a real one about this adventure!!
Well called another dental office, he's alone in his practice, and advertises Dawsons occlusion, does his own implants and dentures, been in practice for several years, and the girl says works alot with tmj and sees alot of tmj patients and of course she herself has tmj. Hes chinese I think by his name.
Stillhope- your mentioned Dawsons occlusion - what is it?
I just wonder if all this cosmetic dentristy has made an increase in people with tmj, since I've never heard of tmj till a few years ago!!
You said " have only two upper last molars and one lower " , is that all the natural teeth you have left? I guess I'm just wondering why you haven't tried dentures around your teeth instead of bridges? Maybe they can make denture splints like TL is doing. So those three molars are holding your bridges??
Anterior splints are usually called Nti, it fits over your front teeth, the kind I had was like TL- a mago, but the dentist made it on my upper denture and only my front lower teeth touch and when I bit my jaw would slide way back. It killed me, none of my back teeth touch and it put a lot of pressure on my remaining lower front teeth which were already compromised due to bone loss ad they got sore and shifted, and then he made me dentures that held my jaw back and kinda locked in which my front teeth touched first and really made me bad. Also because of the real lower teeth hitting the top front denture teeth is caused more bone loss in the front upper area.
Now I think the mago splint may of worked on people with their own teeth, but TL is missing her fronts and I'm missing my front uppers so the pressure is really on the gums, not the teeth. but like TL- I feel the front splint caused my head problems too.
People with real teeth should have the lower teeth meet the backside of the top teeth, but not people with no front teeth!!! Wearing it has caused me combination syndrome, its something people get that wear a full upper and keep their lower front teeth and their teeth hits the front upper teeth.
The teeth my new dentist (seeing him for two years) wants my jaw forward and also no touching on my front teeth to take the pressure off my front top gum, but he sometimes overdoes it.
Problem is I feel I'm too far forward I feel so putting the upper front teeth so far forward left me with back molars which are too far forward, especially on the left side.
The left year flutters and is acting up from lack of support back there (around 1/2" or more) and the R. side my ear is gooshy , and I have ringing on that side, and my neck to the front and down my R. body is all tight. that side I feel is the high side, and I feel the parital is not seated down on my gum. Also have facial spasms both side, and a hard time talking as the R. side is high with I feel no freeway space, it holds my mouth at rest on that side.
Also because I only touch in the back the parital is putting alot of pressure on the lower fronts which they hurt and my bite slides forward and he made these dentues very tight.
also he extended the gum on the uppers and lowres way to to back of my mouth, which I hit the pink stuff way in the back.
I have a feeling that either these need to be redone, and I think its time to have the front lower pulled as it seems no-one can make my lower partial comfortable anymore it seems, as I have more bone loss next to the lower L. cuspid than I do on the right, and that is why the R. never feels seated, its like resting on the area right behind my cuspid and the retromolar pad. I'm going to get a couple consults in town with the ICAT Scan I got to see about how many mini or regular implants would be needed on the lowers (not that I want to do that either as it scares me , and invest my money that way. I don't know if I would need bone grafts or what.
OH TL- spiked eggnog, my Mom use to make eggnog. Maybe I need a few beers , its been so long, a couple years since I've had a beer. I have never drank anything but beer, and I mix that with V8 juice.
Hey guys, I see a post from a young girl, 22, and she has an ant. displaced disc, no pain, but can't open her mouth and she is having surgery done. I so feel sorry for the young people going throught this (and us) but I say to myself at least I had 50 years of life without this problem.
also I'm tired of finding rides out of town to my dentist as I'm not up to driving, to I want to find someone here that can work with me. Although I like my dentist and I know he is trying to help me (he says I'm a work in progress) but after two years I should be better so why am I traveling, but then again he knows my problems and starting with someone new is stressful. I don't know.
Splints in my opinion should only be worn a short time for dx purposes, no splints have really helped me , on the contray they all made me worst, and put undo pressure on my gums, splints on top of dentures don't work well.
Stillhope- I agree with your dentist, we shouldn't have to think about our teeth, I ask everyone where is your bite and they don't know, they have to check, that is the way we should be, but unfortunately our bites are not right. I even asked my osteo where do you chew, and she said I don't know, everywhere I guess.
There has got to be a way out of this nightmare.
a paul harvey riddle for the two of you" What is more powerful than God, more evil than the devil, the rich don't need it, the poor have it, and if you eat it you'll die"
Gee I wrote a book!! Maybe I should write a real one about this adventure!!
Well called another dental office, he's alone in his practice, and advertises Dawsons occlusion, does his own implants and dentures, been in practice for several years, and the girl says works alot with tmj and sees alot of tmj patients and of course she herself has tmj. Hes chinese I think by his name.
Stillhope- your mentioned Dawsons occlusion - what is it?
I just wonder if all this cosmetic dentristy has made an increase in people with tmj, since I've never heard of tmj till a few years ago!!
Thelma-Louise
12-29-2008, 01:20 PM
See - I was told by the dentist who did the implants and first bridges the upper and lower fronts should not really rest on each other too (too much pressure can be exerted by implants on top of implants) so I had a slightly open bite as a result. I just couldn't eat stuffed artichokes or hold a thread between my front teeth - no big deal. The dentist that replaced those bridges however insisted an open bite would cause problems and lenghtened them and that 's when I started having problems - epsecially at night with feeling like I wasn't closing my mouth fully to relax it - and then I started snoring and getting sleep apnea and needed umpteen pillows on my bed to sleep b/c I kept feeling like I could not breath. I started waking with morning headaches and nausea and had no clue why. When the 2nd guy did the replacements I told him what the first guy had said and he said flat out - well he's wrong. And when I started having problems within a few weeks of the new brdige he told me - first, my body is just adjusting to them, 2nd - you will get used to them, 3rd - those symptoms are not related to bridge go see a medical dr. And that's when the arguing started b/c it was so obvious his teeth started everything - just thinking about how this started makes me ENRAGED.:mad:
I'm still pondering your riddle - but let Stillhope have a shot at it. I'm slow with these things anyway.:D
I'm still pondering your riddle - but let Stillhope have a shot at it. I'm slow with these things anyway.:D
luvtocamp
12-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Yes, I think I agree, it may be different if you have all your own teeth and that, but I think anyone with fake teeth, bridges, implant supported teeth or dentures, should have a small amount of space in the front, not almost an inch like I have now, but enough so your lower jaw could have movement and not smack in the back of your top teeth or even when you bite down they don't hit ya know.
So it was the second dentist that legthened your teeth so you would touch is when you started with the problems hey?
When the prostho was making my dentures the ones before what I just got , when I talked for the try ins my lower teeth hit the backs of the tops, and he said well when people talk they hold their jaw back, but he moved them forward for me.
I don't know, most dentist want around a 100 for a consult around here now, so I think I need to pick a few and have my list of quests. They need to be able to read an ICAT Scan since I have one.
What do you think of a dentist thats been in business for 8 years and does his own implants, bone grafts and can even IV sedate you. Usually the dentist around here send you to an oral sx. for implants.
So it was the second dentist that legthened your teeth so you would touch is when you started with the problems hey?
When the prostho was making my dentures the ones before what I just got , when I talked for the try ins my lower teeth hit the backs of the tops, and he said well when people talk they hold their jaw back, but he moved them forward for me.
I don't know, most dentist want around a 100 for a consult around here now, so I think I need to pick a few and have my list of quests. They need to be able to read an ICAT Scan since I have one.
What do you think of a dentist thats been in business for 8 years and does his own implants, bone grafts and can even IV sedate you. Usually the dentist around here send you to an oral sx. for implants.
Thelma-Louise
12-29-2008, 04:53 PM
The guy who did my implants (he was was asian too, btw) did the whole shapbang from start to finish - he did an impression first, then under partial sedation removed the teeth and then placed the implants and made temp bridges he anchored to the next adjacent teeth and then I went in every month for several months for him to check the progress of the intergration of the implant with the bone. And then after about 7-8 months he placed the posts on the implants, made the final bridges and replaced the crowns used as anchors for the temps. I spent almost 6 hrs there on the day he did the teeth extraction, placement of the implants and temp bridges which was quite a long day. And it took several weeks of several appts when he was finally making the perms towards the end there. But I liked the idea of one guy handling the whole thing and not having to go to one guy to remove the teeth , another guy to do the implants and another guy to do the bridges (which my then general dentist suggested I do) - too time consuming for me and that needed a lot of coordination of appts plus I didn't want to be without front teeth during that time (hey, I have come a long way, huh?) and could not miss any work - which I didn't - so it worked out fine in the end. My thinking also was since he took out my natural front teeth to begin with he had an idea of what needed to be replaced from the get go - so he had the "big picture" in his mind and not just his little peice of the pie to work with or focus on. Plus he let me pay him on an installment basis while the implants were intergrating and over the several several weeks of getting the perms done so I had a full year to pay for it which was fine since I was working - plus my dental insurance paid for the 2 canine crowns that were initially used as anchors and the perms placed afterwards. He had 10 yrs of experience under his belt which to be honest made me a bit nervous but back then implants themselves were only being used for 10-12 yrs as well so I figured he started when they first became available.
In speaking with that periodontist my current tmj dentist sent me to last year we spoke about me maybe doing them again someday once my problems are resolved and he said implants today have come a long way since I had them done and are now considered almost perfercted and have a much less failure rate - plus there are many types available depending on individual needs or concerns - back when I did it there were only 2 or 3 types used and the ones I had (he could tell from previous xrays since by then I had already had them removed) were much bigger and bulkier than what is generally used today.
I wouldn't do it though until you are back in a comfortable bite b/c then you may not be able to determine if your pain or problems are from your bite or the implants. And implants can cause referred pain while they intergrate with the bone - at least mine did - a mild ache every once in a while just to let me know they were there.
In speaking with that periodontist my current tmj dentist sent me to last year we spoke about me maybe doing them again someday once my problems are resolved and he said implants today have come a long way since I had them done and are now considered almost perfercted and have a much less failure rate - plus there are many types available depending on individual needs or concerns - back when I did it there were only 2 or 3 types used and the ones I had (he could tell from previous xrays since by then I had already had them removed) were much bigger and bulkier than what is generally used today.
I wouldn't do it though until you are back in a comfortable bite b/c then you may not be able to determine if your pain or problems are from your bite or the implants. And implants can cause referred pain while they intergrate with the bone - at least mine did - a mild ache every once in a while just to let me know they were there.
luvtocamp
12-29-2008, 05:55 PM
Wow what a good story, but that is when the tmj started with the work he did? I thought it was with the detist that redid your bridge? How many implants did you have? Yes implant were not known about when you had them, my goodness really its been in he last several years everyone is getting them it seems.
Yes I sure understand about not wanting to go without teeth, especially when working, even now I know you want some teeth, as least I can wear the upper ya know.
I'm going to need to get my money back for these dentures if he can't make them work, which I doubt.
Oh I hope your splints come in soon, I'm sure the holidays have slowed things down. If these splints don't work do you think you may go to someone else.
I was calling more today, one general dentist who got his liscense 4 years ago and doing implants, I don't think so. I do look their liscense up on the health registration site to see how long they've been in practice. i would want someone with more experience.
Its just so hard, your right need to get out of discomfort is the first thing.
Did you get that riddle yet? Don't overthink it? More grade schools kids got the answere than college ones they said.
Yes I sure understand about not wanting to go without teeth, especially when working, even now I know you want some teeth, as least I can wear the upper ya know.
I'm going to need to get my money back for these dentures if he can't make them work, which I doubt.
Oh I hope your splints come in soon, I'm sure the holidays have slowed things down. If these splints don't work do you think you may go to someone else.
I was calling more today, one general dentist who got his liscense 4 years ago and doing implants, I don't think so. I do look their liscense up on the health registration site to see how long they've been in practice. i would want someone with more experience.
Its just so hard, your right need to get out of discomfort is the first thing.
Did you get that riddle yet? Don't overthink it? More grade schools kids got the answere than college ones they said.
Thelma-Louise
12-29-2008, 10:33 PM
I am not certain if the tmj started back when I had the implants first done or not - after they were finished I did develop an ear ache and a hard knot just in front of my right ear and one lower crown that was initially used as an anchor seemed a bit too high so he filed it down a bit but the right side continued to ache but it was more of an annoyance and nothing terrible. I did develop a neck problem shortly thereafter as well with some popping occuring but after a few months everything seemd fine and I spent the next 7 yrs living normally. It was when I chipped the upper front bridge that exposed an implant that my periodontist that I had started to see for my cleanings (very important if you have implants) recommended I go to someone else to have it fixed - a prosthodontist he knew that he said worked on his wife - so I went to him and it was the replacement bridge that started everything. Now that I look back at that point every visit with him raised more flags and b/c I was just so busy with work and at that point going to see my dad in another state (my mom died shortly after the implants were first done) every weekend - I just dismissed all those concerns I kept having or feeling.
I had the four upper front teeth removed and 4 implants placed on top but one implant did not "seat" well meaning that the base intergrated on a bit of a different angle than the other 3 - making it hard to use it in the bridge as attaching the post would have created the need to push the whole bridge forward - so they "put it to sleep" meaning he decided not to use it or attach a post and just leave it there as it was not visible and would casue no harm not being used either- and he used just the other 3 implants with attached posts to hold the 4 pontic bridge.
On the bottom he removed 6 front teeth and placed 3 implants to support a 6 pontic bridge - but I did end up with some space in between the bridge and my adjacent natural teeth but it was Ok - didn't bother me or look terrible.
But again when I had the upper bridge replaced due to the chip - that prostho insisted the lower had to be changed to match the upper and in doing that he closed the space up that I had on either side of the bridge and the teeth seemed longer and heavier and I started getting pain on the bottom and then on top.
So basically my problems started at that point. I just wish I had gone back to the first guy you know - what a mistake I made.
If this set of splints doesn't work I may at that point at least start going for consults again - I can't see trying the same thing over and over and this is the 4th set of overdentures I have tried. I know the dentist asked me to think about removing the upper teeth and going to a full denture but at that point I may want to see others for more opinons since that is so final. And if that doesn't work, then that means I may have removed them for the wrong reason - same as I did with the implants and I am just so tired of making one mistake after another and listening to well meaning dentists with well meaning advice which end up only make things worse for me.
The answer to the riddle wouldn't be "a tooth" would it? I am probably over analyzing it - but that's me to a tee.
Well I have the chiro tomorrow - kind of looking forward to it since my hip hurts again as does my face and neck and back and feet - right back to where I was a few months ago - those adjustments don't last long do they?
Something is not right though with my upper jaws - I used to feel as if both sides were equal in distance from my ears or temple forward and now the right side always feel shorter - as if its bent or curved - kind of like stretching your arms out in front of you - but bend the right elbow and bring your right hand in towards your chest a bit - my upper jaws feel like that - one side is stretched forward and the other side does not extend as far and is "bent" in somehow. My face feels like it is contorted or mis-shapened as well. I just hate all of this.
oh btw - I did see something about the rise of tmj related to cosmetic dental work when I first started researching tmj and educating myself - mainly b/c dentists try and "sell" it as an affordable self-indulgent self-improvement and do not give much thought to the orthopedics and neuromuscular structure they are messing with.
I had the four upper front teeth removed and 4 implants placed on top but one implant did not "seat" well meaning that the base intergrated on a bit of a different angle than the other 3 - making it hard to use it in the bridge as attaching the post would have created the need to push the whole bridge forward - so they "put it to sleep" meaning he decided not to use it or attach a post and just leave it there as it was not visible and would casue no harm not being used either- and he used just the other 3 implants with attached posts to hold the 4 pontic bridge.
On the bottom he removed 6 front teeth and placed 3 implants to support a 6 pontic bridge - but I did end up with some space in between the bridge and my adjacent natural teeth but it was Ok - didn't bother me or look terrible.
But again when I had the upper bridge replaced due to the chip - that prostho insisted the lower had to be changed to match the upper and in doing that he closed the space up that I had on either side of the bridge and the teeth seemed longer and heavier and I started getting pain on the bottom and then on top.
So basically my problems started at that point. I just wish I had gone back to the first guy you know - what a mistake I made.
If this set of splints doesn't work I may at that point at least start going for consults again - I can't see trying the same thing over and over and this is the 4th set of overdentures I have tried. I know the dentist asked me to think about removing the upper teeth and going to a full denture but at that point I may want to see others for more opinons since that is so final. And if that doesn't work, then that means I may have removed them for the wrong reason - same as I did with the implants and I am just so tired of making one mistake after another and listening to well meaning dentists with well meaning advice which end up only make things worse for me.
The answer to the riddle wouldn't be "a tooth" would it? I am probably over analyzing it - but that's me to a tee.
Well I have the chiro tomorrow - kind of looking forward to it since my hip hurts again as does my face and neck and back and feet - right back to where I was a few months ago - those adjustments don't last long do they?
Something is not right though with my upper jaws - I used to feel as if both sides were equal in distance from my ears or temple forward and now the right side always feel shorter - as if its bent or curved - kind of like stretching your arms out in front of you - but bend the right elbow and bring your right hand in towards your chest a bit - my upper jaws feel like that - one side is stretched forward and the other side does not extend as far and is "bent" in somehow. My face feels like it is contorted or mis-shapened as well. I just hate all of this.
oh btw - I did see something about the rise of tmj related to cosmetic dental work when I first started researching tmj and educating myself - mainly b/c dentists try and "sell" it as an affordable self-indulgent self-improvement and do not give much thought to the orthopedics and neuromuscular structure they are messing with.
StillHope
12-29-2008, 10:35 PM
TL and LTC, I am glad to read your detailed posts. I am pretty miserable these days to say the least. My temp bridges are totally unusable and I have so much pain and torque everywhere that have no energy and concentration to even do my aligning and relaxing stuff. Could not sleep the last few nights, was half sitting among a big pile of pillows on my bed. I am horrified to go to bed now but if not I am going to collapse completely. So sorry for not writing much before.
As I tried to alter my bridges hoping to make something at least to sleep in my mind was swinging on what to do. Thanks for the info on anterior devices. I think this is the only suggestion that the dentist who caused my present nightmare suggested when I asked for help. I am pretty angry. I wrote him a letter about my emergency and all the symptoms which he revoked by his work (in September) but he does not care and think about taking me out of there. Don't know myself either what I want from him now (at least he didn't charge me for all this pain, as my friend said); I don't trust any more letting him work in my mouth.
So I am in the same boat as you are thinking should I look for another dentist or what? But it's not a good start to come in to a dentist with an emergency. Good ones denied my case even when I came in w/o the jaw pain and totally in control of my bite ( just the teeth were not there!). And all the energy needed to look for someone, drive, etc...
:eek:
LTC, besides the back ceramic crowns I have my natural 8 lower fronts and the rest teeth are prepared, therefore temps should be on them! But they are not b/c I have nothing functional to any degree; won't even go into details now. I feel very much in panic these days and don't know how to survive...
So what is good to put in the mouth for the night? A flat lower splint? LTC, you have flat uppers or lowers, or both?
Doesn't your jaw go out of the mouth at night? What stops it?
LTC, sedation, implants, bone grafting is not what you need now the most. Get your bite right, then think of how to do the implants, etc.
Getting the bite right is THE MOST difficult thing in dentistry, as I heard from a dentist. Dawson's guy could be just what you need if he is good and you will feel like you can trust him. Dawson is the classic in dentistry (still alive but not practicing any more). His approach is to see it all as a system of teeth, jaw, muscles; he states that everything should be in balance, relaxed, work coordinated. No "get used to this" for years.
The only "tricky part" is that he is in favor of what I wrote in the last post -- gently "romancing the mandibula" to its place. He does NOT say that this is the VERY BACK position, however, many dentists do not romance the jaw but improperly push it to the back!! Since you had this problem with the "push to the back", just as TL and me did, tell the dentist NOT to push your jaw but be gentle. Again it all depends on the dentist but this is the right theory and if done properly it should give the results pretty fast!
I might sound so definite but you have you judge your intuition. Just ask them before the appointment whether they had any patients with the bite problems whom they have helped. It's not a guarantee, they lie all the time but still will make them be more responsible (hopefully).
TL, just like you I often do not notice anything they do in the dental office b/c I am in so much pain that all my effort goes into suppressing it; I am almost numb there. Afterward, they ask me "why didn't you tell me?":D If only I could have enough brain for all that!
Yah, long fronts! This is how my thing started with top front veneers being made 3 mm!! longer than my teeth were. I looked ready for a Halloween party being a witch! Had all the same problems as you described.
What you have now, I have too. Yes, the tongue feels pushed to the back but I think that this is b/c the VDO and the last molars are so low that the tongue just cannot counterbalance the muscle spasms caused by the absence of the height. My inner edges were not moved outward, but the lower temps, even when I wear them, are so short that the jaw cannot separate enough to hang down and forward more, thus no room for the tongue to stretch.
I agree that for most of the dentists mentioning the tongue is like telling them about the spine. They have enough troubles just thinking on what to do with the teeth!
LTC, don't count on my brain to guess the riddle; I am not good on this even when my brain is working. Not these days at all!!
Thanks so much, guys, for your presence! Don't know what I'd do if I won't think that someone can understand this whole nightmare. If only I can get to sleep in smth and not wake up from my throat being tightened by my own muscles...
As I tried to alter my bridges hoping to make something at least to sleep in my mind was swinging on what to do. Thanks for the info on anterior devices. I think this is the only suggestion that the dentist who caused my present nightmare suggested when I asked for help. I am pretty angry. I wrote him a letter about my emergency and all the symptoms which he revoked by his work (in September) but he does not care and think about taking me out of there. Don't know myself either what I want from him now (at least he didn't charge me for all this pain, as my friend said); I don't trust any more letting him work in my mouth.
So I am in the same boat as you are thinking should I look for another dentist or what? But it's not a good start to come in to a dentist with an emergency. Good ones denied my case even when I came in w/o the jaw pain and totally in control of my bite ( just the teeth were not there!). And all the energy needed to look for someone, drive, etc...
:eek:
LTC, besides the back ceramic crowns I have my natural 8 lower fronts and the rest teeth are prepared, therefore temps should be on them! But they are not b/c I have nothing functional to any degree; won't even go into details now. I feel very much in panic these days and don't know how to survive...
So what is good to put in the mouth for the night? A flat lower splint? LTC, you have flat uppers or lowers, or both?
Doesn't your jaw go out of the mouth at night? What stops it?
LTC, sedation, implants, bone grafting is not what you need now the most. Get your bite right, then think of how to do the implants, etc.
Getting the bite right is THE MOST difficult thing in dentistry, as I heard from a dentist. Dawson's guy could be just what you need if he is good and you will feel like you can trust him. Dawson is the classic in dentistry (still alive but not practicing any more). His approach is to see it all as a system of teeth, jaw, muscles; he states that everything should be in balance, relaxed, work coordinated. No "get used to this" for years.
The only "tricky part" is that he is in favor of what I wrote in the last post -- gently "romancing the mandibula" to its place. He does NOT say that this is the VERY BACK position, however, many dentists do not romance the jaw but improperly push it to the back!! Since you had this problem with the "push to the back", just as TL and me did, tell the dentist NOT to push your jaw but be gentle. Again it all depends on the dentist but this is the right theory and if done properly it should give the results pretty fast!
I might sound so definite but you have you judge your intuition. Just ask them before the appointment whether they had any patients with the bite problems whom they have helped. It's not a guarantee, they lie all the time but still will make them be more responsible (hopefully).
TL, just like you I often do not notice anything they do in the dental office b/c I am in so much pain that all my effort goes into suppressing it; I am almost numb there. Afterward, they ask me "why didn't you tell me?":D If only I could have enough brain for all that!
Yah, long fronts! This is how my thing started with top front veneers being made 3 mm!! longer than my teeth were. I looked ready for a Halloween party being a witch! Had all the same problems as you described.
What you have now, I have too. Yes, the tongue feels pushed to the back but I think that this is b/c the VDO and the last molars are so low that the tongue just cannot counterbalance the muscle spasms caused by the absence of the height. My inner edges were not moved outward, but the lower temps, even when I wear them, are so short that the jaw cannot separate enough to hang down and forward more, thus no room for the tongue to stretch.
I agree that for most of the dentists mentioning the tongue is like telling them about the spine. They have enough troubles just thinking on what to do with the teeth!
LTC, don't count on my brain to guess the riddle; I am not good on this even when my brain is working. Not these days at all!!
Thanks so much, guys, for your presence! Don't know what I'd do if I won't think that someone can understand this whole nightmare. If only I can get to sleep in smth and not wake up from my throat being tightened by my own muscles...
Thelma-Louise
12-30-2008, 02:37 AM
Stillhope - I know what its like to not be able to go to sleep until you are ready to crash - I spent 4 months on my couch not wanting to get in bed (actually feared or dreaded it) and then started the bit about waiting until 4 am to sleep but if I woke up at 6am so be it - I wouldn't try and go back to sleep b/c it was just too dreadful to lay there and deal with what was going on inside my mouth not to mention the pain I was in. During the day though I could fall asleep at the drop of a pin if I gave myself the chance - like sitting in a drs waiting office, or in the car, etc - I got real good at napping while sitting upright as in that position I could brace my tongue better and stop some of the involuntary motion (twiching, spasms, pulling, etc) that was occurring.
I know you are not crazy about prescription meds - I avoided them as well the first year - but at one point I realized I was not doing the rest of my body any good by not allowing it to get the rest it so desperately needed - even if to just recharge itself to be stronger to handle what was going on. Chronic pain in itself saps the body of it resources - its as good as doing aerobics everyday without the cardio benefits - remember pain stimulates the brain wihch in turns signals other systems in the body to over produce chemicals and hormones to counteract it - so your body goes into overdrive and not getting sufficient sleep so it can recharge itself does further harm - anyway - with all of that said, i would hope you would see the benefits some meds can have even if just on a temporary or interim basis an dperhaps give them a try during this difficult period.
After much trial and error of narcotics, pain relievers, NSAIDS, steroids, muscles relaxants, etc prescribed by my primary care doc, I eventually made my way to NYU's TMJ Pain Mgmt Clinic and was prescribed 10 mg of baclofen 2x daily and 10 mg of triavil 2x daily. No it did not stop the pain but I started sleeping better and did not experience adverse side affects any worse than what I was already experiencing. After a 3 months I then asked my primary dr to prescribe them to save me the trip down to NYC every month. The baclofen is a muscle relaxant and the trialvil is a combo drug of an anti-depressant and anti-spasm med. The triavil would put me to sleep within an hour of taking it and I started looking forward to taking it for that 8-10 hrs of escape from the nightmare I was living everyday. I found it was best not to take it during the day though unless I planned on staying in bed since it had such an affect on me. As the dr in the clinic explained, chronic pain over a long period of time can alter the brain's chemistry which can in turn perpetuate the pain cycle - using a mild anti-depressant affects the brains pain center and dulls the signals so the brain stops over reacting and normal chemical production resumes preventing "pain overload". I stayed on them for a full year and then within a few months of working with the cranial chiro weaned myself off of them and now take them on really bad days only. Supposedly they work best if taken daily as they build up in the blood and can then offer the best relief but they seem to work just as well taken periodically - at least for me.
By getting more sleep I found I had more stamina needed to deal with the pain during the day and also found I wasn't crying as much or overly emotional as much whenever anyone asked how I was doing. I too resisted taking such drugs with the thought - it won't fix this and its better to resolve the real issue and then the pain will go on its own - plus all drs seem to want to do is prescribe pills nowadays - and too quickly I might add - which I am so against as well. But I must admit - having the right drugs (I say that b/c my PCP had no clue what to use so he tried everything) - did help enough to make the days and nights a bit better or tolerable.
As you can see I still go to bed quite late but mostly this is on my own accord or with the help of tylenol PM but I now avg a good 7-9 hrs most nights - although I do get bouts where I have trouble staying asleep due to body pain or restless legs & muscle jerking - the chiro helps a lot with that and since i see him every week those bouts are less frequent now.
Just something to think about as I am sure you probably already have since you have been suffering with this for some time.
BTW - where in NJ are you?
I know you are not crazy about prescription meds - I avoided them as well the first year - but at one point I realized I was not doing the rest of my body any good by not allowing it to get the rest it so desperately needed - even if to just recharge itself to be stronger to handle what was going on. Chronic pain in itself saps the body of it resources - its as good as doing aerobics everyday without the cardio benefits - remember pain stimulates the brain wihch in turns signals other systems in the body to over produce chemicals and hormones to counteract it - so your body goes into overdrive and not getting sufficient sleep so it can recharge itself does further harm - anyway - with all of that said, i would hope you would see the benefits some meds can have even if just on a temporary or interim basis an dperhaps give them a try during this difficult period.
After much trial and error of narcotics, pain relievers, NSAIDS, steroids, muscles relaxants, etc prescribed by my primary care doc, I eventually made my way to NYU's TMJ Pain Mgmt Clinic and was prescribed 10 mg of baclofen 2x daily and 10 mg of triavil 2x daily. No it did not stop the pain but I started sleeping better and did not experience adverse side affects any worse than what I was already experiencing. After a 3 months I then asked my primary dr to prescribe them to save me the trip down to NYC every month. The baclofen is a muscle relaxant and the trialvil is a combo drug of an anti-depressant and anti-spasm med. The triavil would put me to sleep within an hour of taking it and I started looking forward to taking it for that 8-10 hrs of escape from the nightmare I was living everyday. I found it was best not to take it during the day though unless I planned on staying in bed since it had such an affect on me. As the dr in the clinic explained, chronic pain over a long period of time can alter the brain's chemistry which can in turn perpetuate the pain cycle - using a mild anti-depressant affects the brains pain center and dulls the signals so the brain stops over reacting and normal chemical production resumes preventing "pain overload". I stayed on them for a full year and then within a few months of working with the cranial chiro weaned myself off of them and now take them on really bad days only. Supposedly they work best if taken daily as they build up in the blood and can then offer the best relief but they seem to work just as well taken periodically - at least for me.
By getting more sleep I found I had more stamina needed to deal with the pain during the day and also found I wasn't crying as much or overly emotional as much whenever anyone asked how I was doing. I too resisted taking such drugs with the thought - it won't fix this and its better to resolve the real issue and then the pain will go on its own - plus all drs seem to want to do is prescribe pills nowadays - and too quickly I might add - which I am so against as well. But I must admit - having the right drugs (I say that b/c my PCP had no clue what to use so he tried everything) - did help enough to make the days and nights a bit better or tolerable.
As you can see I still go to bed quite late but mostly this is on my own accord or with the help of tylenol PM but I now avg a good 7-9 hrs most nights - although I do get bouts where I have trouble staying asleep due to body pain or restless legs & muscle jerking - the chiro helps a lot with that and since i see him every week those bouts are less frequent now.
Just something to think about as I am sure you probably already have since you have been suffering with this for some time.
BTW - where in NJ are you?
luvtocamp
12-30-2008, 08:47 AM
The answere to the riddle is "Nothing".
I sleep in my top denture and take the lower partial out at night, for the last two and a half years I've been sleeping in both plus a splint, so now I'm letting my lower gums breathe at night, and my partial hurts my front teeth so its a relief to get it out. The upper denture is flat. I just feel I need a dentist I can drive too,especially with dentures you get sore spots, like now my partial is hurting and it would probably take 10 mins to fix it but my doctor is out of the office and then to find a ride.
I am kinda like yous, just taking a shower sometimes is hard, let along driving except to the nearby stores.
As for the meds, I never took meds before two years ago, now I take soma (mild muscle relaxer) and sometimes valium 5 mg. It helps me to sleep , rest and not be as anxious. I did use Baclofen, but had to take 60 mg a day for the facial spasms to relax, and then I couldn't walk well so the muscle relaxers work best for me.
TL- hope your adjustment helps, no they don't last long, Yes it sounds more like the it was the prostho messed up your bite. Implants must of costs a forturne back then hey. I am finding that dentist like big teeth, even the ones I have now are big, and wide, the teeth are on the outer side of the gumline, and fill up my whole mouth, no space in between my teeth and my cheeks if you know what I mean. And yes the porcelain are much heavier!!
I don't know , we all want this resolved asap, but it is easy to make hasty decisions when your in pain, with me its a matter of getting my dentures right, and then maybe get the lower pulled and a few minis, your cases are a bit harder with bridges and that. I know with just my bottom parital- they have a problem with.
I so agree getting a good nights sleep is the most imp. thing. I also agree with TL- your better off taking something to take the edge off as chronic pain wreaks havoc on the body.
TL- do you get any side effects from triavil- so now you only take it at night if need be for sleep mainly. Let us know how the chiro visit went.
I was also thinking when you first had it done that you had ear popping and tight neck but after several months it was good and then good for several years, then the CHIP.
Sometimes it does seem like maybe if we could just get a comfortable bite that our bodies will adjust after time as long as our bites are balanced and right for us.
I sleep in my top denture and take the lower partial out at night, for the last two and a half years I've been sleeping in both plus a splint, so now I'm letting my lower gums breathe at night, and my partial hurts my front teeth so its a relief to get it out. The upper denture is flat. I just feel I need a dentist I can drive too,especially with dentures you get sore spots, like now my partial is hurting and it would probably take 10 mins to fix it but my doctor is out of the office and then to find a ride.
I am kinda like yous, just taking a shower sometimes is hard, let along driving except to the nearby stores.
As for the meds, I never took meds before two years ago, now I take soma (mild muscle relaxer) and sometimes valium 5 mg. It helps me to sleep , rest and not be as anxious. I did use Baclofen, but had to take 60 mg a day for the facial spasms to relax, and then I couldn't walk well so the muscle relaxers work best for me.
TL- hope your adjustment helps, no they don't last long, Yes it sounds more like the it was the prostho messed up your bite. Implants must of costs a forturne back then hey. I am finding that dentist like big teeth, even the ones I have now are big, and wide, the teeth are on the outer side of the gumline, and fill up my whole mouth, no space in between my teeth and my cheeks if you know what I mean. And yes the porcelain are much heavier!!
I don't know , we all want this resolved asap, but it is easy to make hasty decisions when your in pain, with me its a matter of getting my dentures right, and then maybe get the lower pulled and a few minis, your cases are a bit harder with bridges and that. I know with just my bottom parital- they have a problem with.
I so agree getting a good nights sleep is the most imp. thing. I also agree with TL- your better off taking something to take the edge off as chronic pain wreaks havoc on the body.
TL- do you get any side effects from triavil- so now you only take it at night if need be for sleep mainly. Let us know how the chiro visit went.
I was also thinking when you first had it done that you had ear popping and tight neck but after several months it was good and then good for several years, then the CHIP.
Sometimes it does seem like maybe if we could just get a comfortable bite that our bodies will adjust after time as long as our bites are balanced and right for us.
Thelma-Louise
12-30-2008, 10:39 AM
The only "adverse" side affect from the triavil I noticed was an increase in appetite and weight gain - and I felt I was becoming hooked on it - actually couldn't wait until the evening to take it b/c it did give me this mellow, easy going feeling and allowed me to ignore all the involuntary movement going on with my face and body - almost like an "I don't care attitude" - b/c when my jaw is moving around for no reason - I tend to get tense and anxious over it and aggravated, etc. and then need to walk around or pace or "do something".
Me - too with the big teeth - all my former pictures show I had a lot of space between my teeth and cheeks and once I let the first guy file my natural teeth down all I keep getting is big teeth that leave no room in the mouth (well no room between the cheeks - I actually feel like I have too much space toward the tongue so my tongue goes back and forth from side to side) and I would feel like they were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I think they think if they stuff your mouth full enough there will be no room for seesawing back and forth and every inch of your jaws will be supported somehow someway - and your muscles will relax - but it doesn't work for me.
Oh - "nothing" boy ,even with the answer to your riddle I had to think hard on it. LOL
Me - too with the big teeth - all my former pictures show I had a lot of space between my teeth and cheeks and once I let the first guy file my natural teeth down all I keep getting is big teeth that leave no room in the mouth (well no room between the cheeks - I actually feel like I have too much space toward the tongue so my tongue goes back and forth from side to side) and I would feel like they were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I think they think if they stuff your mouth full enough there will be no room for seesawing back and forth and every inch of your jaws will be supported somehow someway - and your muscles will relax - but it doesn't work for me.
Oh - "nothing" boy ,even with the answer to your riddle I had to think hard on it. LOL
StillHope
12-31-2008, 03:40 AM
TL, I like what you say: [...feel like they were trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I think they think if they stuff your mouth full enough there will be no room for seesawing back and forth and every inch of your jaws will be supported somehow someway - and your muscles will relax - but it doesn't work for me.] I feel that too! And it really does not work! In fact, it's the opposite, if the lips and the cheeks can relax then it helps to feel what teeth are on the way and what the problem is.
I live in Middlesex County. I went to NYC to few dentists but now I'd rather drive and not too far.
I don't know much about partials. Can a dentist file them down from the cheek side and make less bulky? I'd imagine this should be an easy part for a dentist b/c it does not affect the bite. I usually changed the shape on the outside (i.e. to the cheeks and lips) surface of the temps when they made them. I don't care if it will not shine that much, it gets polished pretty well by the lips, but I go for the comfort.
Thank you, guys for your understanding and the info on the pills. I tried muscle relaxants few times, I do get the sleep but from a single pill I just can't get up for like 24 h, can hardly walk to the bathroom.
I know that pain is a very strong stressor. Since September I am practically in constant jaw pain and I feel like I aged by 3 years in these 3 mo. Sometimes I take Valerian root extract with water. It is very safe, and calms down.
Hope that in two weeks I will be able to bite on the last molar pair; this should help some. The problem is that if we bite only on a few teeth instead of on all of them, these teeth get too much pressure and the gums start going bad. This is why I lost one last molar and the cap on the other one: a dentist left all the contacts only on these teeth, the other ones were too low.
I agree, LTC, that having a dentist locally is the best. Maybe being able to see him for short times often and go slowly is the best way??
I like that "NOTHING"! It is indeed a powerful "thing", as I learned in the last few years. Thanks for the riddle.
LTC, I am pretty sure that if we get the bite right the body will align and be pain free , unless you have some serious traumas in your body. Moreover, this will happen much sooner than you'd think. I had a skew in my bite since 1990 and had body problems all over. But when I got my jaw to relax about 3 years ago, the bite went to its original "normal" position and the body started untwisting right away. It was even scary since I had no idea what was going on: I'd have sudden strong neck clicks, then the toes got numb and really white. I though that they will just become "dead" soon, and so on. But the next day I suddenly felt that my body was so relaxed and aligned as I didn't remember it feeling for years. It was so good. I thought: is that how all people walk and live every day? What else is needed for happiness then?! As they say, we take those things for granted unless we get in trouble. At that point I knew that all I needed was to raise the VDO; I had no jaw pain. But then I had more dental work and my occlusional plane was messed up, the jaw twisted, I was next to fainting, and so on.
Well, it's 3 am. Will try to sleep.
I live in Middlesex County. I went to NYC to few dentists but now I'd rather drive and not too far.
I don't know much about partials. Can a dentist file them down from the cheek side and make less bulky? I'd imagine this should be an easy part for a dentist b/c it does not affect the bite. I usually changed the shape on the outside (i.e. to the cheeks and lips) surface of the temps when they made them. I don't care if it will not shine that much, it gets polished pretty well by the lips, but I go for the comfort.
Thank you, guys for your understanding and the info on the pills. I tried muscle relaxants few times, I do get the sleep but from a single pill I just can't get up for like 24 h, can hardly walk to the bathroom.
I know that pain is a very strong stressor. Since September I am practically in constant jaw pain and I feel like I aged by 3 years in these 3 mo. Sometimes I take Valerian root extract with water. It is very safe, and calms down.
Hope that in two weeks I will be able to bite on the last molar pair; this should help some. The problem is that if we bite only on a few teeth instead of on all of them, these teeth get too much pressure and the gums start going bad. This is why I lost one last molar and the cap on the other one: a dentist left all the contacts only on these teeth, the other ones were too low.
I agree, LTC, that having a dentist locally is the best. Maybe being able to see him for short times often and go slowly is the best way??
I like that "NOTHING"! It is indeed a powerful "thing", as I learned in the last few years. Thanks for the riddle.
LTC, I am pretty sure that if we get the bite right the body will align and be pain free , unless you have some serious traumas in your body. Moreover, this will happen much sooner than you'd think. I had a skew in my bite since 1990 and had body problems all over. But when I got my jaw to relax about 3 years ago, the bite went to its original "normal" position and the body started untwisting right away. It was even scary since I had no idea what was going on: I'd have sudden strong neck clicks, then the toes got numb and really white. I though that they will just become "dead" soon, and so on. But the next day I suddenly felt that my body was so relaxed and aligned as I didn't remember it feeling for years. It was so good. I thought: is that how all people walk and live every day? What else is needed for happiness then?! As they say, we take those things for granted unless we get in trouble. At that point I knew that all I needed was to raise the VDO; I had no jaw pain. But then I had more dental work and my occlusional plane was messed up, the jaw twisted, I was next to fainting, and so on.
Well, it's 3 am. Will try to sleep.
luvtocamp
12-31-2008, 08:58 AM
TL- do you feel better after your chiro visit?
Your right, too wide a smile for us, I see some people with no space between the cheek and teeth but I think they were born that way you know, not a man made bite, but natural for them.
too big of teeth shoved in your mouth doesn't allow freedom of movement, talking is a chore, especailly if you bang your teeth together. How can you not think about your teeth when they make them too big!!
Well the Trival sounds like it may be addicting, I know Valium is too , the most I take is 5mg a day, and usaully I take the Soma, but at this point I don't care. I don't like to take anything that when I wake up in the morning I have residual effects, as I will usually do my running errands in the morning and I don't like anything affecting my driving. I don't really feel much with the valium except after an hour or so my body just feels more relaxed and my spasms aren't so bad and I can read or do some housework easier.
Stillhope- your so right about the body, and how our bite affects it. Its the torque in the upper neck I suspect and like TL and you- I get strange things happening too, different joints cracking and muscle tightness all over etc. I don't know if he can fix the teeth without redoing them, to many items not right with them I feel.
So from what I understand you have 8 lower front teeth that have been prepared for crowns or bridges, and then 2 upper molars and 1 lower on each side then, and they have been prepped for crowns too? Then like TL, makes it a complicated case. Yes I can see when only biting on a couple teeth will put extra stress on them and the gum.
I feel I have aged 10 years in the last three, all the stress and that. A few years ago a friend said hey you don't have any wrinkles, if she could only see me now, doesn't it seem like when you don't feel good for so long that you don't take as good care of yourself, I mean like sometimes my face hurts and I don't put mositurizer on or do facial masks like I use too. I don't wear earrings anymore, and I don't put my rinse in my hair as often as I use too.
Any plans for New Year Eve- tv watching for me.
Your right, too wide a smile for us, I see some people with no space between the cheek and teeth but I think they were born that way you know, not a man made bite, but natural for them.
too big of teeth shoved in your mouth doesn't allow freedom of movement, talking is a chore, especailly if you bang your teeth together. How can you not think about your teeth when they make them too big!!
Well the Trival sounds like it may be addicting, I know Valium is too , the most I take is 5mg a day, and usaully I take the Soma, but at this point I don't care. I don't like to take anything that when I wake up in the morning I have residual effects, as I will usually do my running errands in the morning and I don't like anything affecting my driving. I don't really feel much with the valium except after an hour or so my body just feels more relaxed and my spasms aren't so bad and I can read or do some housework easier.
Stillhope- your so right about the body, and how our bite affects it. Its the torque in the upper neck I suspect and like TL and you- I get strange things happening too, different joints cracking and muscle tightness all over etc. I don't know if he can fix the teeth without redoing them, to many items not right with them I feel.
So from what I understand you have 8 lower front teeth that have been prepared for crowns or bridges, and then 2 upper molars and 1 lower on each side then, and they have been prepped for crowns too? Then like TL, makes it a complicated case. Yes I can see when only biting on a couple teeth will put extra stress on them and the gum.
I feel I have aged 10 years in the last three, all the stress and that. A few years ago a friend said hey you don't have any wrinkles, if she could only see me now, doesn't it seem like when you don't feel good for so long that you don't take as good care of yourself, I mean like sometimes my face hurts and I don't put mositurizer on or do facial masks like I use too. I don't wear earrings anymore, and I don't put my rinse in my hair as often as I use too.
Any plans for New Year Eve- tv watching for me.
Thelma-Louise
12-31-2008, 11:56 AM
Hey - no plans for me either - just tv - but I am having the family over tomorrow for a buffet/dinner - I tried to get out of it but my neices all were disappointed and promised to help with cleaning if I just cooked a meal and suggested we do paper plates, etc and nothing formal - so I need to clean a bit today and do some food shopping.
Oh yesterday - by the time I got to the chiro i was green - the nausea was terrible and I have had a a constant headache for days - so he adjusted the sphenoid again - called it the hornets nest of my problem - and I had spasms like I haven't had in quite a while - one after another that by the time it calmed down I felt exhausted. On the way home I ran 2 errands but my headache got worse and by the time I got home was in to a a full fledge migraine and actually cried over it - I didn't know if it was a migraine per se or really cranio pain resulting from things moving - but the rims of my ears hurt and just behind my ears - as if I had really tight glasses on that were wrapped around them and I could barely open my eyes - I think they were squnting b/c of the pain. So after a couple hrs I finally took a baclofen and fell asleep on the couch for several hrs and when I woke up the pain was gone - so I went to bed and slept another 8 hrs.
I think he is right though about the sphenoid being my problem - I think it got forced out of alignment from the upper bridge not fitting right - when I look over the notes I obtained from the prostho - he actually did write down a lot of my complaints about the bridges - and then the sequence of some fillings on back teeth he did afterwards - where I complaned they were too low - I think what happened was the bridges restricted my jaw and facial muscle mobility and tongue movement, then the fillings in the back lowered the vertical dimension in the back - acting like lifting weight off of a two sided scale - I tipped backwards - this added pressure to the front - and that's really how this started - enormous pressure on the upper bridge so much so that I thought it would pop off on its own. When he refused to remove the bridge at my last appt within a week of that I had my first tongue spasm and then that same night heard popping noises under my nose and the next morning is when I first started seeing drastic changes in the appearance in my face and neck.
So my thinking is the shpenoid got forced out of alignment, this tipped my head - hit the atlas which rotated left to make room for the head shift and this trickled down the back and caused c4, 5 and 6 to bulge - and then the tmj dentists I went to started adjusting my bite based on that alignment which is why nothing seemed to work. I really did not have the cranio facial pain and all the other tmj symptoms until the back teeth got altered.
Although I look better now the first year of this I aged 10 yrs overnight - my face was warped from being in so much pain, I had dark circles under my eyes form not sleeping plus I lost 35 lbs so my skin had that crepe look to it like plucked chicken skin - I was pale from not going out at all - I remember thinking that is what happened with my mom - she looked great up until she got sick and from that point on looked 20 yrs older than her real age.
So I stopped putting makeup on - ear rings and necklaces and accessories like scarfs or braclets either aggravated me or felt like shackles on me - my bra felt like a tournequette. Everything I was kind of known for - always looking my best even if to take out the garbage LOL - all out the window seemingly over night.
Stillhope - if you are interested I have the names of a few drs others have referred me to in North Bergen Cnty - I have never checked them out - but put them on my list just in case at some point I run out of drs in my area to try. My mom was raised in Moonachie and my parent eventually retired down in Toms River - I even worked in Franklin Lakes for 7 yrs and lived in West Milford for 18 mos - but I have family all over Nj and now live right on the border - still go there for my gas LOL - so it didn't seem too foreign for me to travel there - at one point I did consult with a dr in Englewood when all I had was the pressure on the upper bridge but I soon went into a tailpsin and never made it back. That guy basically dealt with prostho and implant issues and at the time I really thought something was going on with my implants since the pain was only around them.
Well - I hope you both are feeling better soon - here's to a new year filled with bright hope and promising outcomes - that by this time next year we are all feeling better and looking forward to the future intsead of dreading another year like this one. May God Bless us all and give us the strength we need to fight to get our lives back.
Oh yesterday - by the time I got to the chiro i was green - the nausea was terrible and I have had a a constant headache for days - so he adjusted the sphenoid again - called it the hornets nest of my problem - and I had spasms like I haven't had in quite a while - one after another that by the time it calmed down I felt exhausted. On the way home I ran 2 errands but my headache got worse and by the time I got home was in to a a full fledge migraine and actually cried over it - I didn't know if it was a migraine per se or really cranio pain resulting from things moving - but the rims of my ears hurt and just behind my ears - as if I had really tight glasses on that were wrapped around them and I could barely open my eyes - I think they were squnting b/c of the pain. So after a couple hrs I finally took a baclofen and fell asleep on the couch for several hrs and when I woke up the pain was gone - so I went to bed and slept another 8 hrs.
I think he is right though about the sphenoid being my problem - I think it got forced out of alignment from the upper bridge not fitting right - when I look over the notes I obtained from the prostho - he actually did write down a lot of my complaints about the bridges - and then the sequence of some fillings on back teeth he did afterwards - where I complaned they were too low - I think what happened was the bridges restricted my jaw and facial muscle mobility and tongue movement, then the fillings in the back lowered the vertical dimension in the back - acting like lifting weight off of a two sided scale - I tipped backwards - this added pressure to the front - and that's really how this started - enormous pressure on the upper bridge so much so that I thought it would pop off on its own. When he refused to remove the bridge at my last appt within a week of that I had my first tongue spasm and then that same night heard popping noises under my nose and the next morning is when I first started seeing drastic changes in the appearance in my face and neck.
So my thinking is the shpenoid got forced out of alignment, this tipped my head - hit the atlas which rotated left to make room for the head shift and this trickled down the back and caused c4, 5 and 6 to bulge - and then the tmj dentists I went to started adjusting my bite based on that alignment which is why nothing seemed to work. I really did not have the cranio facial pain and all the other tmj symptoms until the back teeth got altered.
Although I look better now the first year of this I aged 10 yrs overnight - my face was warped from being in so much pain, I had dark circles under my eyes form not sleeping plus I lost 35 lbs so my skin had that crepe look to it like plucked chicken skin - I was pale from not going out at all - I remember thinking that is what happened with my mom - she looked great up until she got sick and from that point on looked 20 yrs older than her real age.
So I stopped putting makeup on - ear rings and necklaces and accessories like scarfs or braclets either aggravated me or felt like shackles on me - my bra felt like a tournequette. Everything I was kind of known for - always looking my best even if to take out the garbage LOL - all out the window seemingly over night.
Stillhope - if you are interested I have the names of a few drs others have referred me to in North Bergen Cnty - I have never checked them out - but put them on my list just in case at some point I run out of drs in my area to try. My mom was raised in Moonachie and my parent eventually retired down in Toms River - I even worked in Franklin Lakes for 7 yrs and lived in West Milford for 18 mos - but I have family all over Nj and now live right on the border - still go there for my gas LOL - so it didn't seem too foreign for me to travel there - at one point I did consult with a dr in Englewood when all I had was the pressure on the upper bridge but I soon went into a tailpsin and never made it back. That guy basically dealt with prostho and implant issues and at the time I really thought something was going on with my implants since the pain was only around them.
Well - I hope you both are feeling better soon - here's to a new year filled with bright hope and promising outcomes - that by this time next year we are all feeling better and looking forward to the future intsead of dreading another year like this one. May God Bless us all and give us the strength we need to fight to get our lives back.
luvtocamp
12-31-2008, 03:46 PM
TL- "the shpenoid got forced out of alignment, this tipped my head - hit the atlas which rotated left to make room for the head shift and this trickled down the back and caused c4, 5 and 6 to bulge "
yes I think something happened to me like that when I wore the upper front splint and from the first tmj dentist and had my jaw so far back. I really think most of them don't realize how the bite affects the body.
Oh man you've been having it bad since even wearing those splints for a couple days hey- sounds like they just really messed you up again, glad your headache went away and you got a lot of rest. The head feelings are weird hey, sometimes it feels like my ears are detaching from my head.
Does your chiro say that he has other patients with head problems like yours?
I know I've changed too, use to care what I looked like just going to the store, not so much anymore. I go without a bra most days too if not going out which is most days.
Yes Please Lord give us the strength, and I hope this year brings us and the others on this board some relief.
I'm doing alittle housework too , the dust just collects overnight it seems. Oh I forgot you said your family is coming tomorrow, thats nice your neices said they'd clean up- they must really like to spend time with you and or reallly like your cooking- both I'm sure. Thats nice that they understand your condition.
yes I think something happened to me like that when I wore the upper front splint and from the first tmj dentist and had my jaw so far back. I really think most of them don't realize how the bite affects the body.
Oh man you've been having it bad since even wearing those splints for a couple days hey- sounds like they just really messed you up again, glad your headache went away and you got a lot of rest. The head feelings are weird hey, sometimes it feels like my ears are detaching from my head.
Does your chiro say that he has other patients with head problems like yours?
I know I've changed too, use to care what I looked like just going to the store, not so much anymore. I go without a bra most days too if not going out which is most days.
Yes Please Lord give us the strength, and I hope this year brings us and the others on this board some relief.
I'm doing alittle housework too , the dust just collects overnight it seems. Oh I forgot you said your family is coming tomorrow, thats nice your neices said they'd clean up- they must really like to spend time with you and or reallly like your cooking- both I'm sure. Thats nice that they understand your condition.
Thelma-Louise
12-31-2008, 09:32 PM
I asked the chiro if he had treated or seen anyone else like me and he said not with the kind of spasms you get - I mean I really look like Linda Blair when he touches anything around my nose or neck. But this week while I was sitting in the waiting room 2 women were there that were sisters and they could see I was having a hard time just sitting still and one said to me "bad day?" so I just nodded and said I was nauseous and think I missed not seeing him last week" and the other sister nodded in agreement and said she's been a mess for 2 yrs since some dentist filed down her teeth - before I knew it she was telling me her whole story - the other sister was having neck problems but she said her sister with the dental problems hasn't been able to get back to normal since then - we started talking about which dentists she had been to - they go to Dr Gelb in NYC and I tried him and he seemed very dismissive or disinterested with me - but at the time I was there for a consult and was sent by another dentist already treating me - so maybe he felt like he couldn't do anything other than provide an opinion since I was already with another dr? So what the hey are they teaching dentists theses days that a lot of them think its OK to just file teeth down? They should be held accountable just as medical drs are if they remove the wrong body part, you know?
Well we got more snow - I hope everyone comes tomorrow as my older sister gave me a 20lb roast to make - this thing looks like half a pig! - I have never seen anything like it before - I'll have to get up at dawn to put in the oven since my oven timer doesn't work. Plus now my driveway and walk are covered but it is too frigid to go out there and my snow blower is still in the shop - and the lights keep going on and off I guess b/c of the strong winds - well I finsihed cleaning and now will put the table together and just get organized for tomorrow. I am so glad the holidays are almost over.
Well we got more snow - I hope everyone comes tomorrow as my older sister gave me a 20lb roast to make - this thing looks like half a pig! - I have never seen anything like it before - I'll have to get up at dawn to put in the oven since my oven timer doesn't work. Plus now my driveway and walk are covered but it is too frigid to go out there and my snow blower is still in the shop - and the lights keep going on and off I guess b/c of the strong winds - well I finsihed cleaning and now will put the table together and just get organized for tomorrow. I am so glad the holidays are almost over.
luvtocamp
01-01-2009, 09:07 AM
So he hasn't had anyone quite as bad as you with the spasms, I bet he treats alot of tmj , neck people too.
Isn't that interesting, the filing down of teeth is one of the first things they do hey.
I wonder, is a person has not had recent dental work done and they develope tmj symptoms, could it be the problem was then oringinating from the neck and then they file the teeth and now then it becomes a bite problem? If recent dental work had been done then probably the dental work was wrong. Or a person is a clencher or bruxism and its muscular, I think they need to figure out what may be the cause before they just file teeth.
Also they aways file the back teeth down and here these dentures only touch the back teeth- what he made me is like a splint denture or something.
Anyhoo, they are not working, too far forward, no bite on the left, flat top-can't figure out where bite is, and the teeth are set funny-like on a slant and very wide.
We got snow yesterday too, hey maybe your sister can come a bit early and her husband can shovel is needed. Wow a 20lb roast- thats a big one, I always cook roasts in my slow cooker after browning. I hope the day goes well for you and all your guests make it. Take a baclofen before your guest come maybe. I know I try and wait to take somethng till just before my husband comes home as so then I can sit and talk to him for awhile.
I'm glad the holidays are coming to an end too and we can't get back to getting our stuff resolved.
Isn't that interesting, the filing down of teeth is one of the first things they do hey.
I wonder, is a person has not had recent dental work done and they develope tmj symptoms, could it be the problem was then oringinating from the neck and then they file the teeth and now then it becomes a bite problem? If recent dental work had been done then probably the dental work was wrong. Or a person is a clencher or bruxism and its muscular, I think they need to figure out what may be the cause before they just file teeth.
Also they aways file the back teeth down and here these dentures only touch the back teeth- what he made me is like a splint denture or something.
Anyhoo, they are not working, too far forward, no bite on the left, flat top-can't figure out where bite is, and the teeth are set funny-like on a slant and very wide.
We got snow yesterday too, hey maybe your sister can come a bit early and her husband can shovel is needed. Wow a 20lb roast- thats a big one, I always cook roasts in my slow cooker after browning. I hope the day goes well for you and all your guests make it. Take a baclofen before your guest come maybe. I know I try and wait to take somethng till just before my husband comes home as so then I can sit and talk to him for awhile.
I'm glad the holidays are coming to an end too and we can't get back to getting our stuff resolved.
Thelma-Louise
01-01-2009, 09:55 PM
Happy New Year!
Well everyone has gone and now I just need to clean up at my own pace - my ears and the left side of my face are just killing me - 3 little ones running around screaming and they had a disney movie on tv that was blasting - I am just so glad its quiet again - I think my dogs are too b/c they both fell asleep within minutes of me shutting the door - LOL.
Yeah - I have thought on occassion that maybe what I started with was a neck or cranial problem and it was made into a bite issue by seeing tmj dentists - many of the drs I initially saw when it started said it didn't look like tmj - but b/c the pain was initially centered around my implants I felt it was due to them - but then sadly I met a few drs that said it had to be coming from my back teeth - and when I argued why them that they have been the way they are for years with no problem - they insisted that's what was causing it. I also felt b/c of my childhood accidents, and the braces and then chin augmentation and then implants aand bridges and crowns it was dental overload.
I read on one site that even for those with a physiological abnormality causing the symptoms and dysfunction - such as disc displacement or joint problem - that even those are generally attributable to poor dental work be it braces or fillings or restorations. One site pointed out that no one is born with tmj - even if they have abnormalities due to genetic disorders - the body is genetically predisposed to work within those abnormalites. B/c of all the variables and differences of individuals in terms of development and various dental treatments, etc, I doubt they will ever fully know what triggers tmj in some and not others.
The other thing is when that first dr started adjusting (filing) my teeth - I asked him why are you adjusting the top and not the bottom - wouldn't it make sense to adjust the bottom only? he said why - and I said b/c my top are my natural teeth yet on the bottom both sides have 2 molars that are crowned - why would you adjust something that is natural instead of something man made and probably more suspect in terms of being incorrect or causing interference. I got a blank stare from him - the thing is crowns are generally flatter than natural teeth and he was filing the grooves off my natural teeth since the carbon paper would hit those more so - I ended up losing the vertical dimension and now b/c both the upper and lower were flat at the same I started skidding off my teeth when I laid down and my mouth was closed.
Unfortunately I think tmj is going to have to reach epidemic proportions before anything is done both in preventing it by training dentists better and then in treating it.
Well more snow tomorrow and I am supposed to bring my car in for service plus my snow blower is still in the shop - so now that the holidays are over - when is spring coming?:)
Well everyone has gone and now I just need to clean up at my own pace - my ears and the left side of my face are just killing me - 3 little ones running around screaming and they had a disney movie on tv that was blasting - I am just so glad its quiet again - I think my dogs are too b/c they both fell asleep within minutes of me shutting the door - LOL.
Yeah - I have thought on occassion that maybe what I started with was a neck or cranial problem and it was made into a bite issue by seeing tmj dentists - many of the drs I initially saw when it started said it didn't look like tmj - but b/c the pain was initially centered around my implants I felt it was due to them - but then sadly I met a few drs that said it had to be coming from my back teeth - and when I argued why them that they have been the way they are for years with no problem - they insisted that's what was causing it. I also felt b/c of my childhood accidents, and the braces and then chin augmentation and then implants aand bridges and crowns it was dental overload.
I read on one site that even for those with a physiological abnormality causing the symptoms and dysfunction - such as disc displacement or joint problem - that even those are generally attributable to poor dental work be it braces or fillings or restorations. One site pointed out that no one is born with tmj - even if they have abnormalities due to genetic disorders - the body is genetically predisposed to work within those abnormalites. B/c of all the variables and differences of individuals in terms of development and various dental treatments, etc, I doubt they will ever fully know what triggers tmj in some and not others.
The other thing is when that first dr started adjusting (filing) my teeth - I asked him why are you adjusting the top and not the bottom - wouldn't it make sense to adjust the bottom only? he said why - and I said b/c my top are my natural teeth yet on the bottom both sides have 2 molars that are crowned - why would you adjust something that is natural instead of something man made and probably more suspect in terms of being incorrect or causing interference. I got a blank stare from him - the thing is crowns are generally flatter than natural teeth and he was filing the grooves off my natural teeth since the carbon paper would hit those more so - I ended up losing the vertical dimension and now b/c both the upper and lower were flat at the same I started skidding off my teeth when I laid down and my mouth was closed.
Unfortunately I think tmj is going to have to reach epidemic proportions before anything is done both in preventing it by training dentists better and then in treating it.
Well more snow tomorrow and I am supposed to bring my car in for service plus my snow blower is still in the shop - so now that the holidays are over - when is spring coming?:)
luvtocamp
01-02-2009, 09:21 AM
I hope Spring comes fast! this has been one snowny winter so far. Your blower is still in the shop,is it ready for pick up. Hope nothing is wrong with your car. Mine needs a oil change.
Oh I can't believe your dentist was filing your real teeth instead of the crowned ones- at least you noticed it (but think about it- he should of known better- its so obvious ya know- ruining your good teeth instead of crowns that can be replaced!). Makes you mad doesn't it.
Before tmj or whatever it is that happened to me, I never really paid much attention to what the dentist
were doing, which I don't think most people question them ya know. I mean
your in the chair and they are in your mouth, and once they are in your mouth its hard to talk. I hate it when they talk to you and you can't talk back-although now they take my teeth out of my mouth so I can!!
I bet if we did a poll, the results would show it started after dental work, braces, an injury, or neck problem.
Well I see the osteo this coming thurs, and the dentist the following tues. I hope your splints come in the next week or so, but they have all been off for the holidays too I'm sure.
Yes, noise, I hate it too. I bet you were glad when everyone left yesterday,
don't you find that things just get on your nerves more and causes anxiety- even just simple things.
Well I plan on having our taxes ready, the stuff for the comp audit, and the 1099's done by Sunday so I don't have it all hanging over my head. Its not bad this year as its been a slow year, but my brain is not able to concentrate and do paperwork as well- don't you find that- so hard to just sit and think clearly without your mind focusing on how your head feels.
I feel I need a dentist that I can tell him what to do, ya know. I was thinking of getting some sort of putty and trying to make a impression out of my first denture top and compare it to the tops I have now, its like my first denture top fits inside the the denture top I have now!! Any suggestions?
OH yes and heres just my luck- one of the dentist I was thinking of making a consult with- well my husband came home Mon and said he and the general contractor he works for had a meeting with him about some remodeling on his office, so hes out, don't want to get involved in a dentist he did or is doing work for ya know.
Oh I can't believe your dentist was filing your real teeth instead of the crowned ones- at least you noticed it (but think about it- he should of known better- its so obvious ya know- ruining your good teeth instead of crowns that can be replaced!). Makes you mad doesn't it.
Before tmj or whatever it is that happened to me, I never really paid much attention to what the dentist
were doing, which I don't think most people question them ya know. I mean
your in the chair and they are in your mouth, and once they are in your mouth its hard to talk. I hate it when they talk to you and you can't talk back-although now they take my teeth out of my mouth so I can!!
I bet if we did a poll, the results would show it started after dental work, braces, an injury, or neck problem.
Well I see the osteo this coming thurs, and the dentist the following tues. I hope your splints come in the next week or so, but they have all been off for the holidays too I'm sure.
Yes, noise, I hate it too. I bet you were glad when everyone left yesterday,
don't you find that things just get on your nerves more and causes anxiety- even just simple things.
Well I plan on having our taxes ready, the stuff for the comp audit, and the 1099's done by Sunday so I don't have it all hanging over my head. Its not bad this year as its been a slow year, but my brain is not able to concentrate and do paperwork as well- don't you find that- so hard to just sit and think clearly without your mind focusing on how your head feels.
I feel I need a dentist that I can tell him what to do, ya know. I was thinking of getting some sort of putty and trying to make a impression out of my first denture top and compare it to the tops I have now, its like my first denture top fits inside the the denture top I have now!! Any suggestions?
OH yes and heres just my luck- one of the dentist I was thinking of making a consult with- well my husband came home Mon and said he and the general contractor he works for had a meeting with him about some remodeling on his office, so hes out, don't want to get involved in a dentist he did or is doing work for ya know.
Thelma-Louise
01-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Well I tried using wax over my models and that didn't work as I couldn't get it off - then I was going to put vasoline over the models so the wax would release easier and was worried I would ruin the models - then I thought about putting plastic food wrap over the surface of the models and lay the wax on that - but that seemed so time consuming and I got frustrated so I never tried it. It may be different with dentures since they are acrylic or porcelain and nothing generally sticks to them - although white bread used to stick to my crowns and bridges. I wonder if silly putty would work - you know that stuff kids play with? Also keep in mind when you put something over the denture or models the end result is slightly higher and wider. Now my dentist says there is a way for dental labs to take this into account - so I am wondering if you took them to a lab and asked them to copy them, could they?
Well my dentist is not back from vacation until Monday - so I hope he at least sent them to the lab while he was out. I think if this doesn't work I am going to ask him to take the upper front teeth out and just leave the side teeth in so we can see how things on my side/back teeth line up - I have this feeling the front teeth are angled out too far - my front teeth usd to just hang straight down from the gum under my nose - b/c he adds the bump behind them - and they tend to protrude and feel very thnck - I think my upper lip struggles to get around them which over work my muscles. Why do they need to make a whole plate on top - can't they just make the gum part go up a bit but not fully connect - like leave the center open at the roof of your mouth - I have this feeling my over dentures don't really line up with my upper front ridge - but you can't see that since its fully encased in the denture plate - but it always feels that way. He said that shouldn't bother me but I think its part of the reason why my side teeth never align properly.
I don't get anxious - but I am very irritable and quick to snap all the time -somedays I just can't muster the strength to be nice - and b/c I feel rotten I don't feel like I need to make the effort - and when people tick me off like in the store or when I am driving - I just rant and get heated and tend to over react. And sometimes when friends or family are upset over something that seems minor to me compared to what I have been dealing with - I get very uppity with them - I wish they had my problem and I had theirs - maybe then they would realize they do not really have as big as a problem as they are making it out to be - so I really miss being my old self. I guess I got so used to always being able to resolve problems at work - and here I am stuck with something that I can not resolve and its annoying me to no end.
Oh - I could write a book on all the mistakes I have made in paying bills and doing my taxes - thank god no serious mistakes that cost me anything as I usually catch it in time or am able to get around it somehow - but my brain just can't focus on one thing for long periods. And now b/c my medical is always higher than my income I keep getting audited for taxes - and so far each one was resolved with no changes - but it just worries me that one year I will really goof up simply b/c I have brain fog.
Well - today I have sailors gait - I have no clue why - but I am dizzy and lightheaded and walking like I am drunk. The car only needed an oil change and a state inspection and they checked one wheel that makes a grinding noise when I turn the steering wheel - so they greased it - but I had to wait more than 2 hours - so why tell me to bring it in at 8am when 10 other people were told the same thing and there are only 3 mechanics on duty? :(
So tomorrow I have to go to a party for my neice's 3rd child's 1st birthday - she makes a big deal of the first birthday and has it in a hall and next weekend my brother and his family are coming out from PA since he spends his holidays at a house he has in SC and we will do dinner and exchange gifts then.
And its snowing again............
Well my dentist is not back from vacation until Monday - so I hope he at least sent them to the lab while he was out. I think if this doesn't work I am going to ask him to take the upper front teeth out and just leave the side teeth in so we can see how things on my side/back teeth line up - I have this feeling the front teeth are angled out too far - my front teeth usd to just hang straight down from the gum under my nose - b/c he adds the bump behind them - and they tend to protrude and feel very thnck - I think my upper lip struggles to get around them which over work my muscles. Why do they need to make a whole plate on top - can't they just make the gum part go up a bit but not fully connect - like leave the center open at the roof of your mouth - I have this feeling my over dentures don't really line up with my upper front ridge - but you can't see that since its fully encased in the denture plate - but it always feels that way. He said that shouldn't bother me but I think its part of the reason why my side teeth never align properly.
I don't get anxious - but I am very irritable and quick to snap all the time -somedays I just can't muster the strength to be nice - and b/c I feel rotten I don't feel like I need to make the effort - and when people tick me off like in the store or when I am driving - I just rant and get heated and tend to over react. And sometimes when friends or family are upset over something that seems minor to me compared to what I have been dealing with - I get very uppity with them - I wish they had my problem and I had theirs - maybe then they would realize they do not really have as big as a problem as they are making it out to be - so I really miss being my old self. I guess I got so used to always being able to resolve problems at work - and here I am stuck with something that I can not resolve and its annoying me to no end.
Oh - I could write a book on all the mistakes I have made in paying bills and doing my taxes - thank god no serious mistakes that cost me anything as I usually catch it in time or am able to get around it somehow - but my brain just can't focus on one thing for long periods. And now b/c my medical is always higher than my income I keep getting audited for taxes - and so far each one was resolved with no changes - but it just worries me that one year I will really goof up simply b/c I have brain fog.
Well - today I have sailors gait - I have no clue why - but I am dizzy and lightheaded and walking like I am drunk. The car only needed an oil change and a state inspection and they checked one wheel that makes a grinding noise when I turn the steering wheel - so they greased it - but I had to wait more than 2 hours - so why tell me to bring it in at 8am when 10 other people were told the same thing and there are only 3 mechanics on duty? :(
So tomorrow I have to go to a party for my neice's 3rd child's 1st birthday - she makes a big deal of the first birthday and has it in a hall and next weekend my brother and his family are coming out from PA since he spends his holidays at a house he has in SC and we will do dinner and exchange gifts then.
And its snowing again............
luvtocamp
01-02-2009, 03:51 PM
Hi
they put the palate in the upper for suction other wise it won't stay in. I have heard of some peole who use glue it works ok without the palate, but I don't know. They said you need at least 4-6 upper implants for a upper without a palate.
Yes, he angled my front uppers out too and of course put them out farther, so yes getting my lips around that and the wider bite is a chore, I can feel it too- just like you.----------they didn't feel like they fit right on the front did they-mine don't either, like theres a space in there, I tell him but he says no, but there is-so I believe you when you say it doesn't fit right in the front.
I hope he mailed them out before his vacation!!
Oh I get so impatient with people at stores, especially the check out lines, oh yep hearing people complain about minor things gets on my nerves too, I agree its like we have no control over this except how we react to it I guess, but we can't solve it on our own. Ours hands are so tied.
What kind of work were you in TL-what did you do?
Oh we usually can't do long form , do better with the standard since the house is payed off, I did check this year with the medical but better doing the standard again , gee it would only make sense if on SSD and with the dental bills you wouldn't owe, every month I do the business stuff so its all kept up plus I go into end of planning in Nov., and unlike a lot of people we know who fudge their business stuff, we don't , but I would still hate the hassel of an IRS audit. But hey I did find a mistake this am, if you deduct something thats suppose to be added, its a double amount mistake then and it wasn't in our favor, but glad I saw it.
Don't you hate that, I guess they figure some people will cancel. Oh you have state inspections on your cars , lucky MI. can't afford to do that, MI. can't afford to fix the pot holes.
Whats with the snowblower? No snow here today but cold.
they put the palate in the upper for suction other wise it won't stay in. I have heard of some peole who use glue it works ok without the palate, but I don't know. They said you need at least 4-6 upper implants for a upper without a palate.
Yes, he angled my front uppers out too and of course put them out farther, so yes getting my lips around that and the wider bite is a chore, I can feel it too- just like you.----------they didn't feel like they fit right on the front did they-mine don't either, like theres a space in there, I tell him but he says no, but there is-so I believe you when you say it doesn't fit right in the front.
I hope he mailed them out before his vacation!!
Oh I get so impatient with people at stores, especially the check out lines, oh yep hearing people complain about minor things gets on my nerves too, I agree its like we have no control over this except how we react to it I guess, but we can't solve it on our own. Ours hands are so tied.
What kind of work were you in TL-what did you do?
Oh we usually can't do long form , do better with the standard since the house is payed off, I did check this year with the medical but better doing the standard again , gee it would only make sense if on SSD and with the dental bills you wouldn't owe, every month I do the business stuff so its all kept up plus I go into end of planning in Nov., and unlike a lot of people we know who fudge their business stuff, we don't , but I would still hate the hassel of an IRS audit. But hey I did find a mistake this am, if you deduct something thats suppose to be added, its a double amount mistake then and it wasn't in our favor, but glad I saw it.
Don't you hate that, I guess they figure some people will cancel. Oh you have state inspections on your cars , lucky MI. can't afford to do that, MI. can't afford to fix the pot holes.
Whats with the snowblower? No snow here today but cold.
Thelma-Louise
01-02-2009, 04:46 PM
Well NY doesn't do anything without making money - they charge $37.50 for an inspection - but you can go to any authorized mechanic or garage and they get a percent of that and the rest goes to the state. Its such a gimmick - it supposed to be a safety and exhaust check but most just do the exhaust check since that is computerized and sent to the DMV. At least this year I remembered to do it. LOL
I was an accounting mgr - worked in one co for 14 yrs and my last co for 7 yrs - so you can see why making mistakes in paying my bills, etc bothers me - I was so used to acctng standards and procedures and audit issues ,etc - and with my last job I spent most of my time dealing with clients to resolve billing and payment issues - which usually ended up being contract disputes or system glitches. You were a nurse or in health care, right?
Oh I called and the place with my snow blower is closed for New Years until tomorrow -but the snow stopped and it didn't even stick much - so now they say next Tuesday there's more.
See the implants were placed in the exact spots or holes left by the extracted teeth since they were done at the same time - this meant less drilling into the bone to secure them and as the site healed from the extraction the bone just fused with the implant. So my first set of bridges really felt exactly like my own front teeth - in a way even better since they were no longer sensitive to hot or cold food or drink. I saw the implants without the bridges on numerous occasions and they not were angled out - they just hung straight down - it could be though the loss of vertical dimension overall is what is "suggesting" the need for the angled front teeth. What I don't get is why do they put them so much further out than my bottoms - the only time they lined up is when I took them out and placed one on top of the other - but in my mouth there was 1/2 inch space between them. Yet when I am not wearing anything I get the feel as if my front teeth (if they were there) would line up OK and I don't have a huge overbite - I know the dentist said they were mounted on the articulator wrong - so maybe that is the problem.
Like you - I just want someone to listen to me and do what I want done - even just once to see if it will work - b/c I just feel like they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I was an accounting mgr - worked in one co for 14 yrs and my last co for 7 yrs - so you can see why making mistakes in paying my bills, etc bothers me - I was so used to acctng standards and procedures and audit issues ,etc - and with my last job I spent most of my time dealing with clients to resolve billing and payment issues - which usually ended up being contract disputes or system glitches. You were a nurse or in health care, right?
Oh I called and the place with my snow blower is closed for New Years until tomorrow -but the snow stopped and it didn't even stick much - so now they say next Tuesday there's more.
See the implants were placed in the exact spots or holes left by the extracted teeth since they were done at the same time - this meant less drilling into the bone to secure them and as the site healed from the extraction the bone just fused with the implant. So my first set of bridges really felt exactly like my own front teeth - in a way even better since they were no longer sensitive to hot or cold food or drink. I saw the implants without the bridges on numerous occasions and they not were angled out - they just hung straight down - it could be though the loss of vertical dimension overall is what is "suggesting" the need for the angled front teeth. What I don't get is why do they put them so much further out than my bottoms - the only time they lined up is when I took them out and placed one on top of the other - but in my mouth there was 1/2 inch space between them. Yet when I am not wearing anything I get the feel as if my front teeth (if they were there) would line up OK and I don't have a huge overbite - I know the dentist said they were mounted on the articulator wrong - so maybe that is the problem.
Like you - I just want someone to listen to me and do what I want done - even just once to see if it will work - b/c I just feel like they are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
StillHope
01-02-2009, 11:45 PM
Happy New Year!! Wishing all of us to get our bites back and to return to being our normal selves!!
My brain is very foggy too, so I am making notes and will reply to all your messages. I am so much with you on everything that you write.
My New Year's eve was a disaster since I was nearly fainting around 11pm. I was so nauseous that later could barely eat my carrot puree. I felt like I was dying and wouldn't recover from that. I couldn't even open my eyes to look ahead, could not turn my head and was leaning it against the wall. Then took Tylenol, and eventually fell asleep somehow around 2a.m. My daughter was surely upset that I was not up for cooking as I usually do.
These days, I also can't take care of my face and body, and everything is going downhill. Today it took me the whole day to write two letters; one to the last dentist who was simply telling me the facts for 2 hours and asked to pay for it another $250. I am asking him to return this money or to credit it towards the appliance which he promised, in this case I will come in again. The other letter to the dentist who caused this last nightmare in September; before that I was able to consciously keep my jaw relatively pain free, of course, if I was not doing much of anything. It was still better than it is since his work. I am simply asking him whether he feels any responsibility and is willing to help me to get out at least to where I was before him. We'll see what happens.
BTW, he was one of the "teachers" of dentists. And his main attitude is that "teeth never touch" (which is NOT true!) and "forget about your teeth". Imagine how many students learned this from him!
TL, yes, I'd like to know the names of good dentists in No.Bergen county. Now I have troubles driving at all but I hope I'll be able to recover to some degree on my own. Oh, before the New year's eve I made a big effort to go to a store to get some presents for my family. I was so dizzy in a store that could barely walk. Every time I saw myself in a mirror I was horrified: I looked like a person just taken out from a torture chamber.
In fact, like you, LTC, said about my name, I STILL HOPE. It helps seeing it on my posts- I guess this acts like self-hypnosis:D
Guys, I noticed that the aches in the head correspond to where the teeth are hitting wrongfully or the jaw is out of place. E.g. if the forehead hurts the jaw moved too forward and/or the front teeth have too much pressure; if it hurts in the back of the ears/jaw, then the jaw is too much to the back and so on. I don't know if this is true but it seems this way to me.
TL, what you describe about the eyes reminds me the feeling which I had that my eyes were "in front" of my face, out of it; and I couldn’t see well. I realized later that this happens when my jaw goes forward too much and the head slips out of its "socket" (the chin goes up, the back of the head is very tight, the neck feels short and it brings a whole bunch of other TMJ stuff).
Why sphenoid? I don't know much about the spine but I thought that the problem is around C1 where the head is sitting on the spine. This is where it "slips out" if the jaw pulls it forward.
Actually too much back or too much forward are kind of the same thing, as I noticed. When the jaw is pushed to the back (where you start choking) then the body pushes it out to the front too much!
TL, you are also correct that when the VDO is lowered this makes the jaw go forward more and press on the upper fronts (I had this as initial problem w/o any jaw pain then).
It is so horrible that the dentist was filing your natural teeth instead of the crowns! I wish you could have sued him for that. I know from lawyers that it's next to impossible to sue a dentist no matter what they do, and it's so frustrating:(
I think that dentists file the teeth first thing simply because they cannot create them w/o a lab; filing is the only thing they can do right away and make you pay for it. So they end up lowering people's VDO and causing bite and jaw problems first. Then you won't go away from them, even if you do, you will go to another dentist, but other injured patients will come to this dentist, so it's like "helping" their whole community to grow.
I heard on the radio that since the time when dentistry sky-rocketered in this country the number of people with dental problems and even cavities did the same thing. There are fewer cavities/per person in Africa (forgot what country they mentioned) than here.
Years ago I found a tmj site opened by a lady whose tmj started from adjusting a single tooth (or crown). After going through a big chain of dental work and tmj problems, we all know about, she ended up doing a full mouth reconstruction. As I remember, she started putting pressure on the med care to accept tmj as an official disease. I don't remember whether she was the first one to have it accepted or not but she made her disability work for others and spread the word on dental work-tmj relation. First, I was very ashamed to tell friends about what dentists did to me b/c I felt like "smth was wrong with me", but now I feel that we need to lift the curtains and help all those suffering like us.
LTC, I remember I once ordered an individually made night-guard for $99. They sent me some patties to mix and take the impressions myself. I couldn't find that site later. Me too I was curious on what to use to make an impression.
On the other hand, I think that believing your observations in the mirror and your feelings might be even more accurate! This fall I had a front set made as a copy of a copy of the temps which were almost good. I couldn't use it. These days, I just started comparing the models and realized that this copy is like an increased version of what was before. The arch is much wider (by half a tooth distance on each side!), and the teeth are too forward as a result. When I try to reach them as I could easily on the good temps, my jaw feels pulled out and hurts. I couldn't understand why if it's a copy, now I know.
TL, I had temps with the edges tilted out so much forward that I couldn't place them in the mouth. I’d get a feeling that my front roots were twisted out. The incline of the fronts should go, of course, along the roots. Unfortunately, now you do not have the upper roots. I am so mad for you that they took a nicely planted implants out! These implants seemed to be really made in accordance with your original teeth and the problem was in VDO, not in implants, as it seems.
My preps are so short now that it’s not easy to tell the correct angle too, so I really need a good copy. Luckily I still have a model of my natural fronts but dentists do not want to bother using it; they “know better” and they do it all unacceptable one attempt after another, often repeating the same mistakes which a previous dentist did. It’s so sickening… :(
My brain is very foggy too, so I am making notes and will reply to all your messages. I am so much with you on everything that you write.
My New Year's eve was a disaster since I was nearly fainting around 11pm. I was so nauseous that later could barely eat my carrot puree. I felt like I was dying and wouldn't recover from that. I couldn't even open my eyes to look ahead, could not turn my head and was leaning it against the wall. Then took Tylenol, and eventually fell asleep somehow around 2a.m. My daughter was surely upset that I was not up for cooking as I usually do.
These days, I also can't take care of my face and body, and everything is going downhill. Today it took me the whole day to write two letters; one to the last dentist who was simply telling me the facts for 2 hours and asked to pay for it another $250. I am asking him to return this money or to credit it towards the appliance which he promised, in this case I will come in again. The other letter to the dentist who caused this last nightmare in September; before that I was able to consciously keep my jaw relatively pain free, of course, if I was not doing much of anything. It was still better than it is since his work. I am simply asking him whether he feels any responsibility and is willing to help me to get out at least to where I was before him. We'll see what happens.
BTW, he was one of the "teachers" of dentists. And his main attitude is that "teeth never touch" (which is NOT true!) and "forget about your teeth". Imagine how many students learned this from him!
TL, yes, I'd like to know the names of good dentists in No.Bergen county. Now I have troubles driving at all but I hope I'll be able to recover to some degree on my own. Oh, before the New year's eve I made a big effort to go to a store to get some presents for my family. I was so dizzy in a store that could barely walk. Every time I saw myself in a mirror I was horrified: I looked like a person just taken out from a torture chamber.
In fact, like you, LTC, said about my name, I STILL HOPE. It helps seeing it on my posts- I guess this acts like self-hypnosis:D
Guys, I noticed that the aches in the head correspond to where the teeth are hitting wrongfully or the jaw is out of place. E.g. if the forehead hurts the jaw moved too forward and/or the front teeth have too much pressure; if it hurts in the back of the ears/jaw, then the jaw is too much to the back and so on. I don't know if this is true but it seems this way to me.
TL, what you describe about the eyes reminds me the feeling which I had that my eyes were "in front" of my face, out of it; and I couldn’t see well. I realized later that this happens when my jaw goes forward too much and the head slips out of its "socket" (the chin goes up, the back of the head is very tight, the neck feels short and it brings a whole bunch of other TMJ stuff).
Why sphenoid? I don't know much about the spine but I thought that the problem is around C1 where the head is sitting on the spine. This is where it "slips out" if the jaw pulls it forward.
Actually too much back or too much forward are kind of the same thing, as I noticed. When the jaw is pushed to the back (where you start choking) then the body pushes it out to the front too much!
TL, you are also correct that when the VDO is lowered this makes the jaw go forward more and press on the upper fronts (I had this as initial problem w/o any jaw pain then).
It is so horrible that the dentist was filing your natural teeth instead of the crowns! I wish you could have sued him for that. I know from lawyers that it's next to impossible to sue a dentist no matter what they do, and it's so frustrating:(
I think that dentists file the teeth first thing simply because they cannot create them w/o a lab; filing is the only thing they can do right away and make you pay for it. So they end up lowering people's VDO and causing bite and jaw problems first. Then you won't go away from them, even if you do, you will go to another dentist, but other injured patients will come to this dentist, so it's like "helping" their whole community to grow.
I heard on the radio that since the time when dentistry sky-rocketered in this country the number of people with dental problems and even cavities did the same thing. There are fewer cavities/per person in Africa (forgot what country they mentioned) than here.
Years ago I found a tmj site opened by a lady whose tmj started from adjusting a single tooth (or crown). After going through a big chain of dental work and tmj problems, we all know about, she ended up doing a full mouth reconstruction. As I remember, she started putting pressure on the med care to accept tmj as an official disease. I don't remember whether she was the first one to have it accepted or not but she made her disability work for others and spread the word on dental work-tmj relation. First, I was very ashamed to tell friends about what dentists did to me b/c I felt like "smth was wrong with me", but now I feel that we need to lift the curtains and help all those suffering like us.
LTC, I remember I once ordered an individually made night-guard for $99. They sent me some patties to mix and take the impressions myself. I couldn't find that site later. Me too I was curious on what to use to make an impression.
On the other hand, I think that believing your observations in the mirror and your feelings might be even more accurate! This fall I had a front set made as a copy of a copy of the temps which were almost good. I couldn't use it. These days, I just started comparing the models and realized that this copy is like an increased version of what was before. The arch is much wider (by half a tooth distance on each side!), and the teeth are too forward as a result. When I try to reach them as I could easily on the good temps, my jaw feels pulled out and hurts. I couldn't understand why if it's a copy, now I know.
TL, I had temps with the edges tilted out so much forward that I couldn't place them in the mouth. I’d get a feeling that my front roots were twisted out. The incline of the fronts should go, of course, along the roots. Unfortunately, now you do not have the upper roots. I am so mad for you that they took a nicely planted implants out! These implants seemed to be really made in accordance with your original teeth and the problem was in VDO, not in implants, as it seems.
My preps are so short now that it’s not easy to tell the correct angle too, so I really need a good copy. Luckily I still have a model of my natural fronts but dentists do not want to bother using it; they “know better” and they do it all unacceptable one attempt after another, often repeating the same mistakes which a previous dentist did. It’s so sickening… :(
Thelma-Louise
01-03-2009, 01:49 AM
Stillhope - I am so sorry you are having such a rough time right now.
The drs names given to me were from members some time ago when I asked for help in finding a dr in the NJ/NY/CT tri-state area - so again I have never been to them but I am assuming some members or former members have been. 1) Dr Gary Stern in Teaneck, 2)Dr Clemente in Ridgewood 3) Dr John Chibarro in Westwood, 4)Dr John Sousa in Cliffside Park 5) Dr Robert Federman - I have his phone number which I can not post but no location, but its a N Bergen area code. There is also a dr in Philly I thought about seeing but then quite recently someone mentioned they went to him and he was similar to Dr Klemons, in their opinion anyway.
I give you credit for even trying to get your money back - I simply did not have the energy to "fight" like that even though my latest dentist said he would help me if I wanted to file a claim or complain against both my prostho who did the replacement bridges which started my problems and the first tmj dentist who filed my teeth - but I felt I needed what remaining energy and "fight" I had left to just get better and move on.
You are absolutely correct - when my eyes hurt like that and my forehead too my lower jaw feels too forward and pushed upwards, same with the neck tight and the back of my head hurting. Yet I have had go the other way being pushed back and then feel like my head is tilting forward and I can't swallow and gag even when talking.
The sphenoid is located behind the nose under the hard palate and runs up into the brdige of the nose near the forehead. That is also where I heard and felt "popping" like someone striking piano keys shortly after I had my first spasm. One dr mentioned that my hyoid - which is a bone under the tongue seemed displaced as well - and that could have resullted from the sphenoid shifting - but his suggestion was to surgically reposition the hyoid which seemed drastic and scary to me. What is wild is that - you know how you get strange symptoms you are afraid to mention to anyone - well in the morning when I am just starting to wake up yet my eyes are still closed - I "see" what looks like a wagon wheel spinning and a lot of dfferent bright colors - but as I "see" this wheel I also feel my jaw and cranial bones shift - and that is usually when I jump out of bed b/c the feeling and sensation of that happening is just so unnerving. Well I finally told my cranio chiro about it and he said he never heard of that before but would look into it and sure enough he did - he consulted with some other drs and found out that "image" I am seeing may actually be my minds interpretation or visualization of the sphenoid as it shifts once I start moving around - and then he said "see, you aren't crazy - don't beat yourself up all the time". Supposedly the sphenoid should be counter balanced with the dura or dural located toward the hips or tailbone and the c1 and c2 should be centered between the 2 and are responsbile for keeping your head upright and straight and spine aligned properly.
I know you are not crazy about alternative therapies - but the cranial chiro I see has helped me quite a lot - more so than the dentist at this point - and he has an office in NYC as well as Westchester,NY - which is where I go - but many of his patients come from NJ and CT - some travel 2 and 3 hrs to see him - so if you ever want to to give him a try let me know. He uses applied kinesiology so there's no cracking - just his thumb pushing while you do certain movements in a certain sequence.
I know many of the larger insurance cos now recognize tmj as a medical condition, although some still prefer the medical terms of myofacial, orofacial pain or craniofacial pain syndromes but many will only cover orthotics, testing, and certain alternative treatments and none of them will cover orthodontia or dental reconstruction or any "dental" work which is so neccessary for most to permanently prevent the symptoms from returning. Which of course impleis they then still do not recognize the relationship and significance of the jaw and bite with the rest of the body.
I find that frustrating as well - that the same thing keeps being done over and over despite my pleas to try and copy my models as they are. And yet when they don't fit - its the first thing I do is pull out my original models and start pointing out all the differences and that's when I am told "certain asumptions" have to be made - which makes me shake my head - like which part of "make an exact copy" did you not understand? That's when I start getting their responses based on their training - like you need more freeway room, or your tongue is too constricted or if we do it like your models your bite will be too closed - but maybe that is what I need, you know? Not everyone's jaw and teeth conform to what some guys wrote in a text book.
BTW - did either of you ever try using the at home self forming gel night guard - I bought it once at walgreens - you boil it and it gets soft and then place it over your teeth, mold it against against your gums and lightly bite down on it and then remove it and let it cool and harden - I thought it might help in terms of providing a more stabile bite to use to relax a bit - I used it when my teeth had been altered and it wasn't bad - but to put it over filed teeth with no crowns on them to protect them is not a good idea.
The drs names given to me were from members some time ago when I asked for help in finding a dr in the NJ/NY/CT tri-state area - so again I have never been to them but I am assuming some members or former members have been. 1) Dr Gary Stern in Teaneck, 2)Dr Clemente in Ridgewood 3) Dr John Chibarro in Westwood, 4)Dr John Sousa in Cliffside Park 5) Dr Robert Federman - I have his phone number which I can not post but no location, but its a N Bergen area code. There is also a dr in Philly I thought about seeing but then quite recently someone mentioned they went to him and he was similar to Dr Klemons, in their opinion anyway.
I give you credit for even trying to get your money back - I simply did not have the energy to "fight" like that even though my latest dentist said he would help me if I wanted to file a claim or complain against both my prostho who did the replacement bridges which started my problems and the first tmj dentist who filed my teeth - but I felt I needed what remaining energy and "fight" I had left to just get better and move on.
You are absolutely correct - when my eyes hurt like that and my forehead too my lower jaw feels too forward and pushed upwards, same with the neck tight and the back of my head hurting. Yet I have had go the other way being pushed back and then feel like my head is tilting forward and I can't swallow and gag even when talking.
The sphenoid is located behind the nose under the hard palate and runs up into the brdige of the nose near the forehead. That is also where I heard and felt "popping" like someone striking piano keys shortly after I had my first spasm. One dr mentioned that my hyoid - which is a bone under the tongue seemed displaced as well - and that could have resullted from the sphenoid shifting - but his suggestion was to surgically reposition the hyoid which seemed drastic and scary to me. What is wild is that - you know how you get strange symptoms you are afraid to mention to anyone - well in the morning when I am just starting to wake up yet my eyes are still closed - I "see" what looks like a wagon wheel spinning and a lot of dfferent bright colors - but as I "see" this wheel I also feel my jaw and cranial bones shift - and that is usually when I jump out of bed b/c the feeling and sensation of that happening is just so unnerving. Well I finally told my cranio chiro about it and he said he never heard of that before but would look into it and sure enough he did - he consulted with some other drs and found out that "image" I am seeing may actually be my minds interpretation or visualization of the sphenoid as it shifts once I start moving around - and then he said "see, you aren't crazy - don't beat yourself up all the time". Supposedly the sphenoid should be counter balanced with the dura or dural located toward the hips or tailbone and the c1 and c2 should be centered between the 2 and are responsbile for keeping your head upright and straight and spine aligned properly.
I know you are not crazy about alternative therapies - but the cranial chiro I see has helped me quite a lot - more so than the dentist at this point - and he has an office in NYC as well as Westchester,NY - which is where I go - but many of his patients come from NJ and CT - some travel 2 and 3 hrs to see him - so if you ever want to to give him a try let me know. He uses applied kinesiology so there's no cracking - just his thumb pushing while you do certain movements in a certain sequence.
I know many of the larger insurance cos now recognize tmj as a medical condition, although some still prefer the medical terms of myofacial, orofacial pain or craniofacial pain syndromes but many will only cover orthotics, testing, and certain alternative treatments and none of them will cover orthodontia or dental reconstruction or any "dental" work which is so neccessary for most to permanently prevent the symptoms from returning. Which of course impleis they then still do not recognize the relationship and significance of the jaw and bite with the rest of the body.
I find that frustrating as well - that the same thing keeps being done over and over despite my pleas to try and copy my models as they are. And yet when they don't fit - its the first thing I do is pull out my original models and start pointing out all the differences and that's when I am told "certain asumptions" have to be made - which makes me shake my head - like which part of "make an exact copy" did you not understand? That's when I start getting their responses based on their training - like you need more freeway room, or your tongue is too constricted or if we do it like your models your bite will be too closed - but maybe that is what I need, you know? Not everyone's jaw and teeth conform to what some guys wrote in a text book.
BTW - did either of you ever try using the at home self forming gel night guard - I bought it once at walgreens - you boil it and it gets soft and then place it over your teeth, mold it against against your gums and lightly bite down on it and then remove it and let it cool and harden - I thought it might help in terms of providing a more stabile bite to use to relax a bit - I used it when my teeth had been altered and it wasn't bad - but to put it over filed teeth with no crowns on them to protect them is not a good idea.
luvtocamp
01-03-2009, 09:40 AM
TL- I knew you were in mangagement-didn't realize that accounting was your speciality. I can understand how frustrating it is for you just having a hard time keeping things in order, when your obviously good with that kind of stuff.
Yes I'm a nurse, which frustrates me that dentists are not held accountable for their negligence whereas doctors and nurses!! Oh you have to pay for the inspection, yep just a gimmick I think too, anything to make a buck!!
StillHope- was wondering how you are. Sorry to hear not well. Well I think its great you are writing these letters, as if these teeth I got dont' work out I want my money back, and hopefully he'll refund it without a fight because he didnt' include me in the process of these teeth and during the try in process the teeth kept falling out!! I am tired of paying good money after bad for their trial and error. Oh the one that spent the time explaining TMJ and charged you $250.00 for your second visit, hes out for the money and then to tell you they have rent to pay!!!!!!
Yes I agree the lower the bite the more the jaw moves forward. I know I have read conflicting stuff, teeth should not touch or there should be very little freeway space, whats right or wrong I don't know.
Dentists are told when they make dentures they are to tell the person that it takes 3 months to get used to them, because most denture teeth are made with acrylic and the force of the bite will wear the acrylic in time. A lot of dentist won't use porcelain because they don't wear. They are taught this stuff, hoping the person will just get use to them or go somewhere else, or not wear them. Dentist go throught training on how to handle unhappy patients, they seem to have little responsability for the work they do and most people just trust their dentist til they get messed up. I think there are caring dentist out there but getting harder and harder to find.
I agree with TL- find a cranio osteopath or chiro, and take some meds to help you. I have never took prescription meds till about two years ago, and no I'm not worried about getting hooked, but I need to at least feel some relief that they give me.
Driving is hard, that is why if my dentist can't fix these teeth, I'm finding someone close who will work me- as its stressfull getting to his office and he doesn't listen to me, which I think is the main problem for all of us, our dentist, (not so much TL's tho) don't listen to us.
We have a few dentist in town that treat tmj but they are bioesthetic dentist and they believe front teeth hit and keep the jaw back (my first tmj dentist) so I would stay clear from them, they have their own philosophy. I won't go to a neuromuscular dentist either- the one I did see for a couple bite adjustments did the tens unit which made me feel worst. I am at a point where I just trust any of them anymore, or their ideas.
I figure if they would listen to us and at least get our teeth close , we would adapt.
I do think getting a tooth pulled and maybe a filling here and there, we adapt, but I think its when they change the whole bite (dentures) or whole mouth reconstructions, or repositioning splints that it messes up the whole system.
I don't know its very frustrating. I just wanted to add (since writing this I'm just getting madder and madder- which I think is good, we need to get mad)
I think the reason I keep getting worst with the dentist I'm seeing is because, he and the osteopaths work as a team, and all I seem to be is a body that floats back and forth) so I think its better to have a dentist and your own osteo that aren't like in partnership. Although I like my dentist- he listens to the osteo more than me and she is not wearing my teeth!! If I tell him I bite heavy on one side and the osteo tells him to lower the opposite side- he does what she says.
This is not rocket science but they make it so. The joint space is very tiny so making radical changes in bite is not warranted, but we just need to get our bites figured out as they've been messing with them for so long. The more you mess with something the worst it gets!!!!
[Please remember to not mention your professional medical affiliation. You can read more about this by clicking the "Posting Policy" above. Thanks - Well-come Moderator.]
Yes I'm a nurse, which frustrates me that dentists are not held accountable for their negligence whereas doctors and nurses!! Oh you have to pay for the inspection, yep just a gimmick I think too, anything to make a buck!!
StillHope- was wondering how you are. Sorry to hear not well. Well I think its great you are writing these letters, as if these teeth I got dont' work out I want my money back, and hopefully he'll refund it without a fight because he didnt' include me in the process of these teeth and during the try in process the teeth kept falling out!! I am tired of paying good money after bad for their trial and error. Oh the one that spent the time explaining TMJ and charged you $250.00 for your second visit, hes out for the money and then to tell you they have rent to pay!!!!!!
Yes I agree the lower the bite the more the jaw moves forward. I know I have read conflicting stuff, teeth should not touch or there should be very little freeway space, whats right or wrong I don't know.
Dentists are told when they make dentures they are to tell the person that it takes 3 months to get used to them, because most denture teeth are made with acrylic and the force of the bite will wear the acrylic in time. A lot of dentist won't use porcelain because they don't wear. They are taught this stuff, hoping the person will just get use to them or go somewhere else, or not wear them. Dentist go throught training on how to handle unhappy patients, they seem to have little responsability for the work they do and most people just trust their dentist til they get messed up. I think there are caring dentist out there but getting harder and harder to find.
I agree with TL- find a cranio osteopath or chiro, and take some meds to help you. I have never took prescription meds till about two years ago, and no I'm not worried about getting hooked, but I need to at least feel some relief that they give me.
Driving is hard, that is why if my dentist can't fix these teeth, I'm finding someone close who will work me- as its stressfull getting to his office and he doesn't listen to me, which I think is the main problem for all of us, our dentist, (not so much TL's tho) don't listen to us.
We have a few dentist in town that treat tmj but they are bioesthetic dentist and they believe front teeth hit and keep the jaw back (my first tmj dentist) so I would stay clear from them, they have their own philosophy. I won't go to a neuromuscular dentist either- the one I did see for a couple bite adjustments did the tens unit which made me feel worst. I am at a point where I just trust any of them anymore, or their ideas.
I figure if they would listen to us and at least get our teeth close , we would adapt.
I do think getting a tooth pulled and maybe a filling here and there, we adapt, but I think its when they change the whole bite (dentures) or whole mouth reconstructions, or repositioning splints that it messes up the whole system.
I don't know its very frustrating. I just wanted to add (since writing this I'm just getting madder and madder- which I think is good, we need to get mad)
I think the reason I keep getting worst with the dentist I'm seeing is because, he and the osteopaths work as a team, and all I seem to be is a body that floats back and forth) so I think its better to have a dentist and your own osteo that aren't like in partnership. Although I like my dentist- he listens to the osteo more than me and she is not wearing my teeth!! If I tell him I bite heavy on one side and the osteo tells him to lower the opposite side- he does what she says.
This is not rocket science but they make it so. The joint space is very tiny so making radical changes in bite is not warranted, but we just need to get our bites figured out as they've been messing with them for so long. The more you mess with something the worst it gets!!!!
[Please remember to not mention your professional medical affiliation. You can read more about this by clicking the "Posting Policy" above. Thanks - Well-come Moderator.]
Thelma-Louise
01-03-2009, 08:08 PM
My 2nd tmj dentist was the bio-aesthetic dentist and came highly recommended to me by several other drs but even though his teeth looked nice and he almost had the right side back to normal the left side was a mess - at one point I told him lets just pull all the teeth on the left - none of them lined up and my teeth felt twisted everytime I opened and closed. He felt my bite should be right on my pre-molars or bicuspids. When I eventually found my current tmj dentist he started explaining the different philosophies that exist in dentistry in terms of bite and occlusion and jaw position - and it bothered me in a way b/c it made me feel like I was picking out tires - something else I am always confused and bewildered by. I mean shouldn't a bite mean all your teeth meet - and you can close and open your mouth, smile and chew without effort - end of story?
Well the pressure is on now - a former classmate contacted me about an upcoming grammar shool reunion - didn't you ever wonder what happened to those kids you went to grade school with? I better be able to get teeth soon - b/c they are planning it for the spring but no specific date yet and I would really like to go even though I will feel like such a loser - not working and never married :( but I am still curious about what others did with their lives and how they turned out, you know?
I am frustrated too only b/c I have a clear idea in my head of what is wrong with specific teeth - and how my front teeth should be - and I am baffled that dentists don't see it the same way I do - but b/c its my mouth that I looked at and cleaned and flossed,etc for 46 yrs before the tmj - why don't they believe what I tell them - how could they think they know more in terms of what was in my mouth? I don't get it.
So this week you have the osteo? the dentist too?
Well the pressure is on now - a former classmate contacted me about an upcoming grammar shool reunion - didn't you ever wonder what happened to those kids you went to grade school with? I better be able to get teeth soon - b/c they are planning it for the spring but no specific date yet and I would really like to go even though I will feel like such a loser - not working and never married :( but I am still curious about what others did with their lives and how they turned out, you know?
I am frustrated too only b/c I have a clear idea in my head of what is wrong with specific teeth - and how my front teeth should be - and I am baffled that dentists don't see it the same way I do - but b/c its my mouth that I looked at and cleaned and flossed,etc for 46 yrs before the tmj - why don't they believe what I tell them - how could they think they know more in terms of what was in my mouth? I don't get it.
So this week you have the osteo? the dentist too?
luvtocamp
01-03-2009, 08:51 PM
Just surfing, saw you wrote. A upcoming grammar shool reunion, oh wow, thats a long time. Do you remember them?? I went to several schools thur
7th grade so I don't remember anyone.
Hey, you are not a loser, just someone who is having dental problems. Never being married doesn't make you a loser either,.I think you'd be surprised how many of your classmates may of had addictions (not just to drugs), divorced, unhappy and not working. Amd you enjoyed a good career for years till this problem. I bet it would be interesting hey, and I hope you attend with a nice smile= boy I hope Spring has good news for us.
Yes the bioesthic dentist, the cuspids touch and the bottom teeth touch the back of the top teeth. This dentist even added height to my lower teeth!!! I did notice all his assistants and the pictures in his office , they all had long front teeth.
Well my one lower tooth is killing me from the partial. Its loose. My teeth have become more crooked on the bottom with all of this.
I think I'm going to quit smoking tomorrow no matter how bad I feel. I am calling that one perio in town Mon, he is booked till mid Feb. and get his opinion about my ICAt Scan -hes a PHD and should know alot plus about tmj.
I have a feeling I should get the remaining lowers pulled and then in several months have a couple implants or some minis if I have enough bone. I just don't know. Having a bad day.
"I mean shouldn't a bite mean all your teeth meet - and you can close and open your mouth, smile and chew without effort - end of story? " I should think so.
I think if you have your own teeth but for dentures or overdentures I don't think there should be contact on the front teeth, just the side ones ya know. I was reading with the mini lower overdenture, the implants on the front of the bottom . that there should be no hitting the top teeth with them.
About the vertical we were talking about, well my teeth clatter just when driving and talking on the phone, its like my teeth hold my mouth open, more on the right, and I'm getting headaches, and it seems I'm clenching them since they are so close.
I think we should be able to close our mouths without the teeth coming together, am I wrong.
Hope you had a good day. Just another Sat for me. I talked way too much on the phone today, hate that can't even talk on the phone.
7th grade so I don't remember anyone.
Hey, you are not a loser, just someone who is having dental problems. Never being married doesn't make you a loser either,.I think you'd be surprised how many of your classmates may of had addictions (not just to drugs), divorced, unhappy and not working. Amd you enjoyed a good career for years till this problem. I bet it would be interesting hey, and I hope you attend with a nice smile= boy I hope Spring has good news for us.
Yes the bioesthic dentist, the cuspids touch and the bottom teeth touch the back of the top teeth. This dentist even added height to my lower teeth!!! I did notice all his assistants and the pictures in his office , they all had long front teeth.
Well my one lower tooth is killing me from the partial. Its loose. My teeth have become more crooked on the bottom with all of this.
I think I'm going to quit smoking tomorrow no matter how bad I feel. I am calling that one perio in town Mon, he is booked till mid Feb. and get his opinion about my ICAt Scan -hes a PHD and should know alot plus about tmj.
I have a feeling I should get the remaining lowers pulled and then in several months have a couple implants or some minis if I have enough bone. I just don't know. Having a bad day.
"I mean shouldn't a bite mean all your teeth meet - and you can close and open your mouth, smile and chew without effort - end of story? " I should think so.
I think if you have your own teeth but for dentures or overdentures I don't think there should be contact on the front teeth, just the side ones ya know. I was reading with the mini lower overdenture, the implants on the front of the bottom . that there should be no hitting the top teeth with them.
About the vertical we were talking about, well my teeth clatter just when driving and talking on the phone, its like my teeth hold my mouth open, more on the right, and I'm getting headaches, and it seems I'm clenching them since they are so close.
I think we should be able to close our mouths without the teeth coming together, am I wrong.
Hope you had a good day. Just another Sat for me. I talked way too much on the phone today, hate that can't even talk on the phone.
Thelma-Louise
01-04-2009, 01:38 AM
You know its been so long since I have had a bite I can't remember if my teeth touched all the time or not. I do remember them all meeting but not in a slamming or crushing way - like they didn't jam or crash into each when I spoke but I do remember I would have to open my mouth a bit wide (but vertically) to speak and clearly enunciate my words. My dentist asked me if they touch and I do remember they did on some occassions b/c I clearly remember a few times going on roller coasters and such and gritting my teeth together - especially if it did a loop and went upside down. I think though when my front teeth on the bridge got lengthened though, especially near my upper left canine, they started gnawing each other - and an implant was beneath it - so they may have increased my vertical at that point - and that is when I started clenching in the morning and the area around the lower implant started becoming inflamed quite often.
Like you I get so confused by what these dentists tell us - one says don't let implants or dentures touch in the front and another says open bites can casuse problems - its so hard to know who to trust and what is right. Plus its been so long now sometimes I can't remember what my teeth felt like and sometimes I do but then I look in the mirror and there's no way I will ever have "those" again. I guess I would happy just having teeth and a comfortable bite even if its not what I had - I just want my pain and symptoms gone and to look and feel normal again so I can go out and find a job and pay off my growing debt.
But I don't think your teeth should touch when you are speaking - I had that once and that is very unnerving as well. The thing is what gets lowered to stop that ?- with me they kept lowering the upper back teeth and I think it should be the lower back teeth that get shortened - there's a diff- by leaving the lower back teeth longer instead of the upper back teeth I felt like I was gagging and "jamming" when I opened and closed. The bio-aesthetic dentist left the last back tooth on each side like little ski ramps that went up towards the back and this drove me insane!
I have noticed when my lower back teeth are left short I get the feeling that I push my upper back teeth down to meet them - which seems right to me - yet the dentists keep making my upper back teeth shorter than the lower back teeth - and this makes me feel like I am pushing my lower jaw up to meet the upper teeth - which is very uncomfortable for me - I feel like I am swallowing my lower teeth and my tongue gets jammed as well - have you noticed this with what you have tried so far?
I do remember my grade school friends believe it or not - I was with the same kids for 9 yrs. I went to 2 diff HSs and barely remember those years at all and then I went to college at night while I worked and didn't really get to know any one or socialize since I had just enough time to get to class and by 10pm when the class was over I just wanted to go home and sleep.
Well I went to that BD party today but noticed the more I talk the more I spasm - if I don't talk my jaw just keeps moving around trying to find a spot to rest. I think its b/c the teeth on the right can sometimes meet and the teeth on the left can't meet at all - so when the teeth on the right do touch my jaw feels "pushed" and the spasm kind of pushes things back.
I have heard stories from others - even my mom saying - that partials can damage and ruin remaining teeth and usually are just the interim step to dentures at some point. The teeth they attach to and the fact they can be too loose or too tight will eventually torque the roots of the anchor teeth and erode the bone and gum tissue. I do think you will like the mini implants but also think you may want to hold off until you get your bite issue resolved - but even my dentist said a really good set of dentures really shouldn't flop around even on the bottom and its just a matter of making them correctly.
I would like to quit smoking too - its time as I am seeing the signs - thought I would try hypnotism since I don't want any more drugs in my system and can't suck on lozenges with my teeth so exposed - I looked into a few places in my town but I didn't like what I read but now I heard a neighbor of mine went to one and he quit so I just need to find out where he went and make this the year.
Like you I get so confused by what these dentists tell us - one says don't let implants or dentures touch in the front and another says open bites can casuse problems - its so hard to know who to trust and what is right. Plus its been so long now sometimes I can't remember what my teeth felt like and sometimes I do but then I look in the mirror and there's no way I will ever have "those" again. I guess I would happy just having teeth and a comfortable bite even if its not what I had - I just want my pain and symptoms gone and to look and feel normal again so I can go out and find a job and pay off my growing debt.
But I don't think your teeth should touch when you are speaking - I had that once and that is very unnerving as well. The thing is what gets lowered to stop that ?- with me they kept lowering the upper back teeth and I think it should be the lower back teeth that get shortened - there's a diff- by leaving the lower back teeth longer instead of the upper back teeth I felt like I was gagging and "jamming" when I opened and closed. The bio-aesthetic dentist left the last back tooth on each side like little ski ramps that went up towards the back and this drove me insane!
I have noticed when my lower back teeth are left short I get the feeling that I push my upper back teeth down to meet them - which seems right to me - yet the dentists keep making my upper back teeth shorter than the lower back teeth - and this makes me feel like I am pushing my lower jaw up to meet the upper teeth - which is very uncomfortable for me - I feel like I am swallowing my lower teeth and my tongue gets jammed as well - have you noticed this with what you have tried so far?
I do remember my grade school friends believe it or not - I was with the same kids for 9 yrs. I went to 2 diff HSs and barely remember those years at all and then I went to college at night while I worked and didn't really get to know any one or socialize since I had just enough time to get to class and by 10pm when the class was over I just wanted to go home and sleep.
Well I went to that BD party today but noticed the more I talk the more I spasm - if I don't talk my jaw just keeps moving around trying to find a spot to rest. I think its b/c the teeth on the right can sometimes meet and the teeth on the left can't meet at all - so when the teeth on the right do touch my jaw feels "pushed" and the spasm kind of pushes things back.
I have heard stories from others - even my mom saying - that partials can damage and ruin remaining teeth and usually are just the interim step to dentures at some point. The teeth they attach to and the fact they can be too loose or too tight will eventually torque the roots of the anchor teeth and erode the bone and gum tissue. I do think you will like the mini implants but also think you may want to hold off until you get your bite issue resolved - but even my dentist said a really good set of dentures really shouldn't flop around even on the bottom and its just a matter of making them correctly.
I would like to quit smoking too - its time as I am seeing the signs - thought I would try hypnotism since I don't want any more drugs in my system and can't suck on lozenges with my teeth so exposed - I looked into a few places in my town but I didn't like what I read but now I heard a neighbor of mine went to one and he quit so I just need to find out where he went and make this the year.
StillHope
01-04-2009, 02:00 AM
Thanks so much for supporting me in this tough time and for supporting my letters to dentists. This is what I started doing lately with them and it seems that this is the only thing that some times works. They hate having anything in writing from us!!! They are very afraid of being sued or complained about.
LTC, I noticed your new mood and was glad about it, then read that you are getting mad at the situation. I think this is great! Please, get this energy and talk to your dentist in a serious way. It's good that you like the osteo and the dentist but you are right that they "work as a team" meaning that this is to their benefit to have it ongoing for... years??
If the osteo is helpful for the dentist to listen to why then it all does not work for so long?
And hope you will quit smoking on the same momentum and this will really bring you to a new level on your bite recovery. New year, new life!
I fully agree that the bite is OUR comfy position in which we can eat, sleep, speak and be pain free. I wonder if dentists go to fix their own teeth sometimes, and how do they feel about their own bites then??:D
Yes, LTC, we should be able to close the mouth, the lips and not touch with the teeth. Actually, the bulkiness on the outside of the fronts and under the cheeks may add to this problem a lot. I went through this few times and finally adjusted the bulky temps myself so that my cheeks could move forward freely. In your place I'd insist on this first of all.
I forgot you have the natural teeth on the lower fronts?
I do have 8 lower fronts not filed and I want to keep them no matter what.
TL, thanks for the dentists and the advice on the gel night guard, I'll check on those! Maybe I can place some temps for the night and the guard on top. Today I went for a walk, tried to relax my shoulders, etc. and feel somewhat better. Well, still need to sleep somehow:(
I have both of your jaw extremes too: too much forward, too much to the back (choking, can't talk, and the rest). I think my condyle fell past the bones sometimes and this was pretty scary.
I know what you mean about the cranio bones shifting. Sometimes when I am in bed and touch my head on the back it is like it's skewed and is facing to one side, the whole scull is skewed. I thought it was my structure but then when I relaxed completely and aligned myself my head felt so symmetric. The cranio bones are in fact not attached so there is space between them and they can float.
I am so glad you didn't do any surgery on your hyoid (??), nothing radical until you get your bite!
Good you mentioned the vertebra connections. When my jaw goes too much somewhere I usually feel it right away in the tailbone. In these cases the tailbone goes up like in a cat in heat and there is no way to drop the pelvic bones down and relax the hips.
It sounds indeed like your chiro is a good one, more like a cranio-osteo specialist. For now I wouldn't even go anywhere b/c I preserve my energy and time. If I spend two-three hours focusing on my body and relaxing I can usually get better, tho lately didn't have even any energy to do this. But driving would be even less possible.
I agree with LTC, you are not a looser! Of course, the years in pain are no fun, we all have that. In regards to not being married, isn't it the freedom so many people in marriages are dreaming of? So many are stuck ( I know all about that!) and only wish to "undo it". There are some happy couples or it looks this way but they seem to be so rare.
TL, so you have the original models in which you were comfy? Why can't your dentist make a plastic form, fill it with acrylic and place on your mouth to make the temps or bridges, just to verify your bite? If you have something to file acrylic then you can make the changes you want yourself. I've done it this way when left for the first time with no fronts, then with the upper backs again when my VDO was lowered and I was left with nothing comfy. It was the best thing that I had done and I lived in those for few years with no jaw pain, but the VDO was still very low, so I needed to redo the whole mouth. Relied on dentists to know it better but each time was left to recover on my own from what they did.
LTC, I noticed your new mood and was glad about it, then read that you are getting mad at the situation. I think this is great! Please, get this energy and talk to your dentist in a serious way. It's good that you like the osteo and the dentist but you are right that they "work as a team" meaning that this is to their benefit to have it ongoing for... years??
If the osteo is helpful for the dentist to listen to why then it all does not work for so long?
And hope you will quit smoking on the same momentum and this will really bring you to a new level on your bite recovery. New year, new life!
I fully agree that the bite is OUR comfy position in which we can eat, sleep, speak and be pain free. I wonder if dentists go to fix their own teeth sometimes, and how do they feel about their own bites then??:D
Yes, LTC, we should be able to close the mouth, the lips and not touch with the teeth. Actually, the bulkiness on the outside of the fronts and under the cheeks may add to this problem a lot. I went through this few times and finally adjusted the bulky temps myself so that my cheeks could move forward freely. In your place I'd insist on this first of all.
I forgot you have the natural teeth on the lower fronts?
I do have 8 lower fronts not filed and I want to keep them no matter what.
TL, thanks for the dentists and the advice on the gel night guard, I'll check on those! Maybe I can place some temps for the night and the guard on top. Today I went for a walk, tried to relax my shoulders, etc. and feel somewhat better. Well, still need to sleep somehow:(
I have both of your jaw extremes too: too much forward, too much to the back (choking, can't talk, and the rest). I think my condyle fell past the bones sometimes and this was pretty scary.
I know what you mean about the cranio bones shifting. Sometimes when I am in bed and touch my head on the back it is like it's skewed and is facing to one side, the whole scull is skewed. I thought it was my structure but then when I relaxed completely and aligned myself my head felt so symmetric. The cranio bones are in fact not attached so there is space between them and they can float.
I am so glad you didn't do any surgery on your hyoid (??), nothing radical until you get your bite!
Good you mentioned the vertebra connections. When my jaw goes too much somewhere I usually feel it right away in the tailbone. In these cases the tailbone goes up like in a cat in heat and there is no way to drop the pelvic bones down and relax the hips.
It sounds indeed like your chiro is a good one, more like a cranio-osteo specialist. For now I wouldn't even go anywhere b/c I preserve my energy and time. If I spend two-three hours focusing on my body and relaxing I can usually get better, tho lately didn't have even any energy to do this. But driving would be even less possible.
I agree with LTC, you are not a looser! Of course, the years in pain are no fun, we all have that. In regards to not being married, isn't it the freedom so many people in marriages are dreaming of? So many are stuck ( I know all about that!) and only wish to "undo it". There are some happy couples or it looks this way but they seem to be so rare.
TL, so you have the original models in which you were comfy? Why can't your dentist make a plastic form, fill it with acrylic and place on your mouth to make the temps or bridges, just to verify your bite? If you have something to file acrylic then you can make the changes you want yourself. I've done it this way when left for the first time with no fronts, then with the upper backs again when my VDO was lowered and I was left with nothing comfy. It was the best thing that I had done and I lived in those for few years with no jaw pain, but the VDO was still very low, so I needed to redo the whole mouth. Relied on dentists to know it better but each time was left to recover on my own from what they did.
Thelma-Louise
01-04-2009, 02:24 AM
Well I have models that are from when the severe pain started on the upper anterior ridge - a few adjustments had been done to my upper back teeth but not enough that couldn't be fixed at that point. The last 3 dentists I have gone to did try and use them to restore my bite but I have no clue why it doesn't work - they always end up too wide and I can't get my upper lip to rest comfortably and meet my lower lip - all of them said it has something to do with how the models I have were mounted on the articulator. My current dentist tried it twice and each time the same thing happened - I even took to filing them myself - but the problem was if I filled one side and got it comfy - the other side would feel pulled toward that side - so I would file the other side - and then get pulled that way. It was a vicious circle - I even started making written notes about what would happen when this tooth or this side got adjusted vs the other side trying to figure out what was going on - its almost as if each side has a different problem or bite to it - yet still affect each other. But this could be b/c they were made as overdentures - meaning they have a plate in them - so filing the gummy part moved the plate and this in turn would push/pull against my palate and rotate or twist the maxilla.
Supposedly this next set I am getting is based off my models again as my dentist asked for them back at my last appt since I keep them at home so they don't get lost - even wrote my name all over them.
Supposedly this next set I am getting is based off my models again as my dentist asked for them back at my last appt since I keep them at home so they don't get lost - even wrote my name all over them.
luvtocamp
01-04-2009, 11:27 AM
Hi- I have to say sometimes I feel like a loser too tho, as I'm not doing much these days, not visiting people or really am of little help to no one ya know. I do think a chronic condition and not be able to socialize like we want does cause some depression even if we dont realize it. I mean you see other people eating and talking and laughing having a great time, and we can't even do the very things that we took for granted for so long and that other people never have to really think about.
Yes TL- I would rather them file on the lowers than the tops. That dentist in Hastings was filing on the tops and bottoms and messed them up. From now on I will only allow filing on the bottom denture,(no sense in ruing both).
I also kinda think when the make the top teeth short it allows the jaw to move back and go up like you said to meet the top teeth. Anyway my top teeth have always been higher than my lowers,
whereas all the dentist I've seen said the lowers should have more hight to them.
Our bodies are like rubberbands , one area gets tight it pulls on another area and on and on- so that is probably the cause of our tail bone pain.
Stillhope are you sending your letters out Mon?
I can't wait to hear your responses, or they may not respond hoping you'll just go away.
I think dentist in practice with a partner has the partner work on their teeth, or go to another dentist. Can you imagine watching and listening to a dentist working on another dentist's teeth, i think it'd be fun to listen to., I'd love it.
TL- I can see where it would be exciting to go the reunion since going to school so long with the same people, I wonder if you'd be able to reconize even half of them after so long.
Yes TL- I would rather them file on the lowers than the tops. That dentist in Hastings was filing on the tops and bottoms and messed them up. From now on I will only allow filing on the bottom denture,(no sense in ruing both).
I also kinda think when the make the top teeth short it allows the jaw to move back and go up like you said to meet the top teeth. Anyway my top teeth have always been higher than my lowers,
whereas all the dentist I've seen said the lowers should have more hight to them.
Our bodies are like rubberbands , one area gets tight it pulls on another area and on and on- so that is probably the cause of our tail bone pain.
Stillhope are you sending your letters out Mon?
I can't wait to hear your responses, or they may not respond hoping you'll just go away.
I think dentist in practice with a partner has the partner work on their teeth, or go to another dentist. Can you imagine watching and listening to a dentist working on another dentist's teeth, i think it'd be fun to listen to., I'd love it.
TL- I can see where it would be exciting to go the reunion since going to school so long with the same people, I wonder if you'd be able to reconize even half of them after so long.
Thelma-Louise
01-04-2009, 09:16 PM
Well - today I tried eating a chocolate caramel - yeah I know I shouldn't given the state my teeth are in but I did anyway - no chewing, I just sucked on it until the chocolate was gone - but then realized what was left - the caramel, made the perfect molding material so I made upper front teeth with it and I must say I think this is where my problem lies in terms of what is wrong with the teeth they are making. When the caramel was placed in front of my upper anterior ridge or gum area - I immediately began to spasm and feel torqued - however moving it directly under the ridge or gum made me suddenly bring my upper lips down over it and pushed my upper back teeth up into my cheeks and I felt I good - my upper back teeth no longer felt like they were being pushed down and my lower jaw had a sense of relief and freedom it has not had in some time - my joints felt different as well - I was opening and closing my mouth like I used to and felt a bit euphoric - I couldn't believe how good it felt. So what does this mean? Is it that they are basically just mispositioning my front teeth or does it mean the replacement bridges pushed my upper palate out of alignment? Where do your front teeth belong - do you know? - in front of the ridge or directly below it?
StillHope
01-05-2009, 12:42 AM
TL, it's again more similarity in our cases -- I mean what you said in #51 about not being able to get two sides comfy at the same time! I have the same problem. Sometimes it seems that the arcs are different and this is why, sometimes I think it's because of my lower plane being so skewed (like yours, as I understand it), sometimes I think it's because one disk is worn out more. I was even told that it is located higher, maybe b/c for many years I was pushing harder into it. This might change tho, it can go back lower if, and WHEN the proper bite will be made. Sometimes I think this is just b/c the muscles are used to doing this skewed pattern and will relearn if get comfy. So I am not sure what is the reason but I understand it so well!
I think I also have what they call long centric which certainly makes it more complex. I bite first on the "very back" but can never keep my jaw there for more than few seconds, then the jaw goes a tiny bit forward and this is where I mostly chew. Tho it has to be able to go to that first position as well, otherwise I get a jaw pain right away.
What you describe about caramel, as it seems to me, is that you just got into that CR -centric relation, the position of the jaw into which the dentists suppose to "romance" the jaw! Yah, when I get there it does feel so good right away, the face looks like mine too-- younger in an instant. And it is euphoric, I take a deep breath and fully exhale, relax. Sometimes the jaw starts moving up and down slowly and rhythmically, the way it should all the time!
Basically in this position there suppose to be an "anterior stop" (or preferably stops on all the upper fronts), i.e. contacts. The upper fronts must have a specific slope for each person, it can be steep down from the gums, can be very gradual forward. It all depends on what space the jaw needs for speaking. I think your caramel proved that your front edge has to be right below the gum. If you can make something that will do this reaction to your jaw and you can take it to the dental office I think your current dentist should be able to get it this time!
It also seems that when you did this there was nothing on your way, right? I mean you were not hitting any cusp or anything, probably were not even touching any backs? This again confirms that your VDO is low and it has to be raised to that position where your jaw wants to stop when being in that "euphoric state".
BTW, I wanted to ask you: why did they place the braces on your uppers: to push them in or to move them out?
LTC, I guess for you this position is not attainable now unless they will file down the teeth which you feel are too high to even close your mouth. But filing is easier (if they know what they are doing!) than building, this is why I think your case can be done easier.
I sent my letters already, might even hear from the dentists tomorrow, or never. This happens too often as well.
TL, you also said earlier that they take a BR when you are in pain and then surely you are in pain when they make the teeth for that bite. This is so true and so obvious! I wish dentists would understand it but they do NOT! It happened to me so many times! In my first temps I could bite "correctly" and not but when the dentist made the teeth for the wrong bite I could no longer bite comfy at all: so the wrong bite was "engraved" and my jaw went to excruciating pain. All they say is " don't worry, we will adjust it later". My lab friend says all the time, that the BR has to be VERY accurate, otherwise it won't work. And I know from my numerous attempts that no adjustments afterward will help if the bite was not done properly.
I wanted to ask you both: does it happen to you that when you tell your "close people" about your pain they don't take it seriously but if you tell exactly the same symptoms about someone else they become horrified and feel very sorry? I mentioned about TL's sleep to a friend and he even recalled this next time when we talked, he was so impressed. I said, but I've been telling this about myself for so long... He never paid much attention to my complaints that I can't sleep until I fall from exhaustion.
I think I also have what they call long centric which certainly makes it more complex. I bite first on the "very back" but can never keep my jaw there for more than few seconds, then the jaw goes a tiny bit forward and this is where I mostly chew. Tho it has to be able to go to that first position as well, otherwise I get a jaw pain right away.
What you describe about caramel, as it seems to me, is that you just got into that CR -centric relation, the position of the jaw into which the dentists suppose to "romance" the jaw! Yah, when I get there it does feel so good right away, the face looks like mine too-- younger in an instant. And it is euphoric, I take a deep breath and fully exhale, relax. Sometimes the jaw starts moving up and down slowly and rhythmically, the way it should all the time!
Basically in this position there suppose to be an "anterior stop" (or preferably stops on all the upper fronts), i.e. contacts. The upper fronts must have a specific slope for each person, it can be steep down from the gums, can be very gradual forward. It all depends on what space the jaw needs for speaking. I think your caramel proved that your front edge has to be right below the gum. If you can make something that will do this reaction to your jaw and you can take it to the dental office I think your current dentist should be able to get it this time!
It also seems that when you did this there was nothing on your way, right? I mean you were not hitting any cusp or anything, probably were not even touching any backs? This again confirms that your VDO is low and it has to be raised to that position where your jaw wants to stop when being in that "euphoric state".
BTW, I wanted to ask you: why did they place the braces on your uppers: to push them in or to move them out?
LTC, I guess for you this position is not attainable now unless they will file down the teeth which you feel are too high to even close your mouth. But filing is easier (if they know what they are doing!) than building, this is why I think your case can be done easier.
I sent my letters already, might even hear from the dentists tomorrow, or never. This happens too often as well.
TL, you also said earlier that they take a BR when you are in pain and then surely you are in pain when they make the teeth for that bite. This is so true and so obvious! I wish dentists would understand it but they do NOT! It happened to me so many times! In my first temps I could bite "correctly" and not but when the dentist made the teeth for the wrong bite I could no longer bite comfy at all: so the wrong bite was "engraved" and my jaw went to excruciating pain. All they say is " don't worry, we will adjust it later". My lab friend says all the time, that the BR has to be VERY accurate, otherwise it won't work. And I know from my numerous attempts that no adjustments afterward will help if the bite was not done properly.
I wanted to ask you both: does it happen to you that when you tell your "close people" about your pain they don't take it seriously but if you tell exactly the same symptoms about someone else they become horrified and feel very sorry? I mentioned about TL's sleep to a friend and he even recalled this next time when we talked, he was so impressed. I said, but I've been telling this about myself for so long... He never paid much attention to my complaints that I can't sleep until I fall from exhaustion.
luvtocamp
01-05-2009, 08:43 AM
TL- did you save the caramel? that is interesting. So putting the mold under the ridge and not in front made a difference. Does that mean with the caramel in front of your gum that it allows you jaw to move our further??
Did any of your teeth touch or was it just the placement of the caramel on you gum tissue that made a difference? I mean what was it that made your bite stop? Did you put the caramel on your bottom front too?
Stillhope- I feel the upper teeth are set to far forward too so the whole denture would need redoing, and that the lower partial doesn't seat right.
I have told friends and family whats going on , but atlas they pretty much just think no one can make me a denture, They don't understand about bite and all that or how it affects the body, and heaven forbid if I would tell anyone their symptoms sound like tmj. I don't talk about it much anymore, except here, at least people take you seriously.
Well found a breathing exercise called Nadi Sodhana- real easy- and its suppose to clear your energy channels and re-pattern muscles. You do it with your nostrils, you can look it up.
About having bite registrations when in pain, I feel your right, they will be off.
I don't think the carbon bite registations are that accurate anyone, they can usually tell if you hit heavy in an area but what teeth hit first its hard to tell.
Stillhope- can't wait to hear what your dentist's have to say in response to your letters.
You know what, I've been realizing I'm getting headaches now, the last week or so, never did, I do get a pulsating from my neck , but never headaches. Got to be these teeth and the forward bite.
Ok Ladies- heres what I did. I took carbon paper , two pieces on each side so my bite marks would be on top and bottom and put it in between my teeth and bit up and down , and then lined up the teeth (upper and bottom) to the corresponding lines and found
that my top very last molars sit in froftont of the back molars on the bottom, I always thought that the back top molar sits a tiny bit behind the back bottom molar. no other bite marks, only touch in the back.
Also bite heavy on right- and shows on the two back molar, but on left carbon paper only shows on 1/2 of the back lower molar.
My opinion upper bite too far forward. What do you think.
Did any of your teeth touch or was it just the placement of the caramel on you gum tissue that made a difference? I mean what was it that made your bite stop? Did you put the caramel on your bottom front too?
Stillhope- I feel the upper teeth are set to far forward too so the whole denture would need redoing, and that the lower partial doesn't seat right.
I have told friends and family whats going on , but atlas they pretty much just think no one can make me a denture, They don't understand about bite and all that or how it affects the body, and heaven forbid if I would tell anyone their symptoms sound like tmj. I don't talk about it much anymore, except here, at least people take you seriously.
Well found a breathing exercise called Nadi Sodhana- real easy- and its suppose to clear your energy channels and re-pattern muscles. You do it with your nostrils, you can look it up.
About having bite registrations when in pain, I feel your right, they will be off.
I don't think the carbon bite registations are that accurate anyone, they can usually tell if you hit heavy in an area but what teeth hit first its hard to tell.
Stillhope- can't wait to hear what your dentist's have to say in response to your letters.
You know what, I've been realizing I'm getting headaches now, the last week or so, never did, I do get a pulsating from my neck , but never headaches. Got to be these teeth and the forward bite.
Ok Ladies- heres what I did. I took carbon paper , two pieces on each side so my bite marks would be on top and bottom and put it in between my teeth and bit up and down , and then lined up the teeth (upper and bottom) to the corresponding lines and found
that my top very last molars sit in froftont of the back molars on the bottom, I always thought that the back top molar sits a tiny bit behind the back bottom molar. no other bite marks, only touch in the back.
Also bite heavy on right- and shows on the two back molar, but on left carbon paper only shows on 1/2 of the back lower molar.
My opinion upper bite too far forward. What do you think.
Thelma-Louise
01-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Some day - when we are all out of this mess we are in we will have to get together and finally meet - I have such a sense of comaraderie and closeness with you both.
Stillhope - I too can see a difference in my upper arches and I am not sure if this happened due to braces, periodontal surgery, the replacement crowns, the fact that I have a wisdom tooth on the upper left side that is slightly angled outward or b/c one tmj dentist insisted the humps where my 3 other wisdoms were removed as a teenager needed to be shaved down.
When I was around 11 I had a roller skating accident and smashed my face into the pavment - I loosened my 4 upper front teeth and the left central front tooth got pushed backwards and was actually dangling. An OS pushed the tooth back into its socket and then wired the 4 teeth to the gum for six months (it was such a painful ordeal) and they retightened. My 4 front teeth ended up slightly pushed backwards - so my canines protruded more forward and looked like fangs - and the one tooth that had to be reinserted was much further back than the others and also ened up getting a root canal when it turned black. So when I was 23 I decided to see if they could straighten them although it did concern me that it might be too much trauma for them considering what had happened - so they removed the 1st bicuspid on all 4 quads and repositioned the teeth but I ended up with spaces between the canine and the 2nd bicuspid. They looked and felt fine until my early 30's when my front teeth just started to ache and turn a dark yellow and flange out - and I was told by several dentists it was called calcification - that the teeth would come out on their own eventually so i had them removed and did the implants. The bottom front teeth followed about 6 months later. I am not sure if it was the trauma that caused this - either the accident or the braces or both - or that my bite was wrong - since now I know that a poor bite can cause front teeth to loosen as well.
What I do remember though abut my teeth after the braces is that when I smiled the last molars were further outward toward the cheeks than the central and bicsupids were - you know on some dresses in the back they have a hook and eye to keep the zpper hidden - the eye part that the hook attaches to has 2 curled edges that extend outward a bit and are sewed onto the dress - yet it then is shapped into a narrow "U" with the front of it slightly wider so the hook can attach to it - very graphic detail I know - but that is what my upper looked like and my bottom teeth angled inward to meet the uppers. It looked perfect though I must say.
I too feel I have a long centric - I am pretty sure my back teeth hit first and then I brought the lower jaw up and froward to meet the front teeth. Kind of like heel down and then toe. Yet every dentist seems to think it should be front down and then back - and to me that is like toe down and then the heel and who walks like that? I also remember my back teeth all hitting at the same time - something I have not had since they filed them.
I think with the caramel in front of the upper anterior ridge - my muscles around the lip, in effort to stretch over or around the "teeth", pushed my lower jaw backwards and up in the back and this is why I gag and my tongue gets pushed against - hence why I thought the spasms were actually tongue spasms at first since it was my tongue that started circling my back teeth uncontrollably when this started. But putting the caramel under the ridge - it was funny how quickly my lips went right down "over" it (not stretched around it) and seemed to recognize it immediately - that it felt like those lip muscles pushed my upper jaw backward and my lower jaw forward - and this gave me the position and freedom I needed. None of my other teeth touched but I had the strong sense of where my bottom teeth should be. And it made my upper back teeth feel like they were further back past my tongue - hard to explain or describe - but I am always feeling like my back teeth now start somewhere near the middle of my tongue instead of at the back of the mouth. I didn't put the caramel on the bottom front - the upper front was all I really needed which again makes me think they are making my bottom teeth too long and my upper too short.
It is just amazing Stillhope that you raise the issue of the slope behind the upper front teeth - it took several visits with the dentist who made the bridges for the implants to get it right and with the prostho who did the replacement bridges - well I had the same problem only he got furstrated and told me to learn to live with it - and within a month that's when I started getting the sensation that my front teeth were off center - I don't think the tip of my tongue was able to extend equally on both sides of the central front teeth and that's what may have started the ball rolling. Now with the over dentures the dentist keeps putting this "slope" behind the front teeth and I think its pushing my tongue backwards. I think LTC is having a similar issue.
I barely talk about my symptoms with my family any more - and seldom with neighbors or friends either - its usually more about feeling "sick" - do you still feel sick? do you feel any better today? oh, you still feel so sick - can't "they" do anything? - if I say I have tmj I usually get stories about how they occassionaly get an ear ache or a clicking sound but if I say its a neuromsucular dysfunction I then am told to try botox injections. And b/c they can't understand it I get the most stupid suggestions to try to feel "better". I try hard now not to talk about it with one sister b/c we always end up fighting over it - she can't accept the fact that teeth alone can do this. If I mention I speak with others with my problem - I get raised eyebrows- as if I met a bunch of loonies and am part of a cult of some sort. But when I speak with my chiro or tmj dentist (and you guys of course) they understand it all and that is when I can "relax" and just say what I want and not feel I need to convince them of what I am experiencing. Same here LTC - if I even mention what someone else has may be a bite or tmj issue - I get slammed with - "Oh no - its much more serious than that".
Oh the headaches! - I had one since I tried those other over dentures - its finally gone but now I have ear crackling and popping going on and feel "plugged up" again. Sometimes I feel like - if I just removed my face or head I would be fine - LOL.
Stillhope - I too can see a difference in my upper arches and I am not sure if this happened due to braces, periodontal surgery, the replacement crowns, the fact that I have a wisdom tooth on the upper left side that is slightly angled outward or b/c one tmj dentist insisted the humps where my 3 other wisdoms were removed as a teenager needed to be shaved down.
When I was around 11 I had a roller skating accident and smashed my face into the pavment - I loosened my 4 upper front teeth and the left central front tooth got pushed backwards and was actually dangling. An OS pushed the tooth back into its socket and then wired the 4 teeth to the gum for six months (it was such a painful ordeal) and they retightened. My 4 front teeth ended up slightly pushed backwards - so my canines protruded more forward and looked like fangs - and the one tooth that had to be reinserted was much further back than the others and also ened up getting a root canal when it turned black. So when I was 23 I decided to see if they could straighten them although it did concern me that it might be too much trauma for them considering what had happened - so they removed the 1st bicuspid on all 4 quads and repositioned the teeth but I ended up with spaces between the canine and the 2nd bicuspid. They looked and felt fine until my early 30's when my front teeth just started to ache and turn a dark yellow and flange out - and I was told by several dentists it was called calcification - that the teeth would come out on their own eventually so i had them removed and did the implants. The bottom front teeth followed about 6 months later. I am not sure if it was the trauma that caused this - either the accident or the braces or both - or that my bite was wrong - since now I know that a poor bite can cause front teeth to loosen as well.
What I do remember though abut my teeth after the braces is that when I smiled the last molars were further outward toward the cheeks than the central and bicsupids were - you know on some dresses in the back they have a hook and eye to keep the zpper hidden - the eye part that the hook attaches to has 2 curled edges that extend outward a bit and are sewed onto the dress - yet it then is shapped into a narrow "U" with the front of it slightly wider so the hook can attach to it - very graphic detail I know - but that is what my upper looked like and my bottom teeth angled inward to meet the uppers. It looked perfect though I must say.
I too feel I have a long centric - I am pretty sure my back teeth hit first and then I brought the lower jaw up and froward to meet the front teeth. Kind of like heel down and then toe. Yet every dentist seems to think it should be front down and then back - and to me that is like toe down and then the heel and who walks like that? I also remember my back teeth all hitting at the same time - something I have not had since they filed them.
I think with the caramel in front of the upper anterior ridge - my muscles around the lip, in effort to stretch over or around the "teeth", pushed my lower jaw backwards and up in the back and this is why I gag and my tongue gets pushed against - hence why I thought the spasms were actually tongue spasms at first since it was my tongue that started circling my back teeth uncontrollably when this started. But putting the caramel under the ridge - it was funny how quickly my lips went right down "over" it (not stretched around it) and seemed to recognize it immediately - that it felt like those lip muscles pushed my upper jaw backward and my lower jaw forward - and this gave me the position and freedom I needed. None of my other teeth touched but I had the strong sense of where my bottom teeth should be. And it made my upper back teeth feel like they were further back past my tongue - hard to explain or describe - but I am always feeling like my back teeth now start somewhere near the middle of my tongue instead of at the back of the mouth. I didn't put the caramel on the bottom front - the upper front was all I really needed which again makes me think they are making my bottom teeth too long and my upper too short.
It is just amazing Stillhope that you raise the issue of the slope behind the upper front teeth - it took several visits with the dentist who made the bridges for the implants to get it right and with the prostho who did the replacement bridges - well I had the same problem only he got furstrated and told me to learn to live with it - and within a month that's when I started getting the sensation that my front teeth were off center - I don't think the tip of my tongue was able to extend equally on both sides of the central front teeth and that's what may have started the ball rolling. Now with the over dentures the dentist keeps putting this "slope" behind the front teeth and I think its pushing my tongue backwards. I think LTC is having a similar issue.
I barely talk about my symptoms with my family any more - and seldom with neighbors or friends either - its usually more about feeling "sick" - do you still feel sick? do you feel any better today? oh, you still feel so sick - can't "they" do anything? - if I say I have tmj I usually get stories about how they occassionaly get an ear ache or a clicking sound but if I say its a neuromsucular dysfunction I then am told to try botox injections. And b/c they can't understand it I get the most stupid suggestions to try to feel "better". I try hard now not to talk about it with one sister b/c we always end up fighting over it - she can't accept the fact that teeth alone can do this. If I mention I speak with others with my problem - I get raised eyebrows- as if I met a bunch of loonies and am part of a cult of some sort. But when I speak with my chiro or tmj dentist (and you guys of course) they understand it all and that is when I can "relax" and just say what I want and not feel I need to convince them of what I am experiencing. Same here LTC - if I even mention what someone else has may be a bite or tmj issue - I get slammed with - "Oh no - its much more serious than that".
Oh the headaches! - I had one since I tried those other over dentures - its finally gone but now I have ear crackling and popping going on and feel "plugged up" again. Sometimes I feel like - if I just removed my face or head I would be fine - LOL.
luvtocamp
01-05-2009, 01:17 PM
TL- You said- but I am always feeling like my back teeth now start somewhere near the middle of my tongue instead of at the back of the mouth.
Reread my last post at the very bottom , I was editing while you were writing.
andway I did a test and my top back molars sit in front of my lower back molars, should be just the opposite-- right, so I think our bites are too forward on top. it is like my tongue can easily feel the end of the L. top molar like its way forward but harder too on the R. side,
Like the slope behind the top, yes I have that with these dentures, and thats because he put the bite too far forward. I know they don't want them cramed in the back, the joint way far back, but I think its just as bad with the joint too far forward, as I'm getting a host of different symptoms now,
also they don't fit well in the front, most of the pressure is in the back of the palate.
and it makes me want to hold my neck forward- do you feel that too.
tell me what you think.
Reread my last post at the very bottom , I was editing while you were writing.
andway I did a test and my top back molars sit in front of my lower back molars, should be just the opposite-- right, so I think our bites are too forward on top. it is like my tongue can easily feel the end of the L. top molar like its way forward but harder too on the R. side,
Like the slope behind the top, yes I have that with these dentures, and thats because he put the bite too far forward. I know they don't want them cramed in the back, the joint way far back, but I think its just as bad with the joint too far forward, as I'm getting a host of different symptoms now,
also they don't fit well in the front, most of the pressure is in the back of the palate.
and it makes me want to hold my neck forward- do you feel that too.
tell me what you think.
Thelma-Louise
01-05-2009, 01:36 PM
Yes, yes, yes - that's it - me too, my upper back teeth feel like they are in front of my lower back teeth and I am gagging as a result. But I have one side that feels like the last upper tooth is slightly further back than the other. And if I try and touch my upper back teeth - b/c they feel so forward - my tongue spasms. And it does make my head tilt forward.
luvtocamp
01-05-2009, 02:06 PM
Yes, and it is causing me to push my lower jaw forward and more forward head.
He told me there is no way the jaw can be too far foward and that is simply not true, it can stretch the ligaments.
.I just get so mad don't you. You know both times now that I've been treated by him and the osteo's I got worst, The first time I was at least socializing, eating and exercising, driving and sewng when I met him, to be just about bed ridden. The I was driving out to Hastings myself, and now I can barely drive. I just think he is too extreme in his treatments, always changing the bite too much.
I am even getting dizzy since wearing these and my eyes blurry.
You know my previous dentures fit funny now too after almost 2 months of these things, and now I bite on the back of the old ones, so now I guess I have developed an even more open front bite.
I just sometimes wonder if we can be fixed or not, and beyond repair.
He told me there is no way the jaw can be too far foward and that is simply not true, it can stretch the ligaments.
.I just get so mad don't you. You know both times now that I've been treated by him and the osteo's I got worst, The first time I was at least socializing, eating and exercising, driving and sewng when I met him, to be just about bed ridden. The I was driving out to Hastings myself, and now I can barely drive. I just think he is too extreme in his treatments, always changing the bite too much.
I am even getting dizzy since wearing these and my eyes blurry.
You know my previous dentures fit funny now too after almost 2 months of these things, and now I bite on the back of the old ones, so now I guess I have developed an even more open front bite.
I just sometimes wonder if we can be fixed or not, and beyond repair.
Thelma-Louise
01-05-2009, 03:56 PM
I worry about that too - can this be fixed or have they made us messed up for life - although my dentist keeps assuring me it can be fixed - I have yet to see any truth or even signs that it can - other than like the other day with the caramel - how good I did feel for the brief instant. But it won't get fixed if we keep seeing the same drs that keep doing the same thing - which is why I get the urge to go to someone else.
The thing is with my upper back teeth feeling like they are in front of my lower back teeth I get the feeling my lower jaw is too far back - by allowing the upper back teeth to fit further behind the lower back teeth I think this naturally forces your lower jaw down and forward - similar to what many splints do. I am wondering if you feel like your lower jaw is too forward simply b/c the upper back teeth are hitting too soon and this is pushing your lower jaw up - so you get the feeling like it is forward. Or is is b/c your upper front teeth protrude so far out that you have the need to push your lower jaw forward to be able to have the lower front teeth meet the ones above?
The thing is with my upper back teeth feeling like they are in front of my lower back teeth I get the feeling my lower jaw is too far back - by allowing the upper back teeth to fit further behind the lower back teeth I think this naturally forces your lower jaw down and forward - similar to what many splints do. I am wondering if you feel like your lower jaw is too forward simply b/c the upper back teeth are hitting too soon and this is pushing your lower jaw up - so you get the feeling like it is forward. Or is is b/c your upper front teeth protrude so far out that you have the need to push your lower jaw forward to be able to have the lower front teeth meet the ones above?
luvtocamp
01-05-2009, 04:43 PM
Thats good the caramel worked, unfortunately its not a long term solution, but at least you knew there was a good place to bite at.
Well only my back teeth touch, and I mean the way back molars which he wanted, not the side or the front. Looking at me looks like I have a lower back splint in , and no I don't put my jaw out to meet the front, my top fronts are way far out, I asked him about my jaw dislocating when he tells me to bring my jaw forward to meet the front and he says no, but I don't agree.
the upper and lower molars should at least fit on top of each over, but I really think the lower should fit just slightly forward of the top just like you said, I think your right it allows the lower jaw to move to far back instead of the top teeth pushing it forward.
How long have you been seeing your dentist, its been about 1.5 years now too hey, if your splints are not right are you switching dentists? I hope your splints come soon so you can find out how they are going to work, you waited so long for the last ones, I hope this lab in Florida is better.
Just got bad from getting blood work done for my dr. visit coming up, I would sure like to go in there with some good news but doesn't look like thats going to happen.:(
Well only my back teeth touch, and I mean the way back molars which he wanted, not the side or the front. Looking at me looks like I have a lower back splint in , and no I don't put my jaw out to meet the front, my top fronts are way far out, I asked him about my jaw dislocating when he tells me to bring my jaw forward to meet the front and he says no, but I don't agree.
the upper and lower molars should at least fit on top of each over, but I really think the lower should fit just slightly forward of the top just like you said, I think your right it allows the lower jaw to move to far back instead of the top teeth pushing it forward.
How long have you been seeing your dentist, its been about 1.5 years now too hey, if your splints are not right are you switching dentists? I hope your splints come soon so you can find out how they are going to work, you waited so long for the last ones, I hope this lab in Florida is better.
Just got bad from getting blood work done for my dr. visit coming up, I would sure like to go in there with some good news but doesn't look like thats going to happen.:(
Thelma-Louise
01-05-2009, 11:28 PM
I think part of your problem may be your dentist relying too much on the osteo - I mean she is not a dentist - and if he not at least using some of his training and knowledge - then you might as well let her adjust the teeth at this rate. How can he let you walk around knowingly only hitting the back teeth - its just as bad as the guy that let me walk around only hitting the front teeth and then asking me why I didn't tell him.
I am seeing my current tmj dentist since June or July 2006 - the longest I have gone with one dentist by far and breaking my own rule of only giving a dentist 6 mos if I didn't see improvement- but I did spend almost a full year just seeing the chiro per his instructions with only a couple appts with the dentist to check my progress - so if you exclude the 1 year then I too have been seeing my current dentist about 1 1/2 years now. B/c I was seeing improvement with seeing the chiro though I thought it would mean teeth would then be easier to make - so I kind of just hung in there.
Like you - at some point we will each have to decide how much is too much and when to call it a day and start over with someone else - no matter how much we dread it - we will basically have no choice.
So who did you call - who, what or where is geneva? is that the name of the denture? Did you think of asking that lab guy if he knew of any dentists in your area that are good at making teeth?
I bet though if you keep wearing your old ones you will adjust to it again and go back to that position. Unless of course the shape of the gums have changed drastically too - my bridges did that to me - the replacements pushed the gum around the implants all out of whack and now after not wearing anything (plus having the implants removed) neither the original bridges nor the replacement bridges line up against my gum at all.
Well I have the chiro tomorrow and yipee I get my snow blower back - just have to wait for my BIL to come home from work to go get it - now watch it not snow for the rest of the season - altough that wouldn't be that bad either - lol.
I am seeing my current tmj dentist since June or July 2006 - the longest I have gone with one dentist by far and breaking my own rule of only giving a dentist 6 mos if I didn't see improvement- but I did spend almost a full year just seeing the chiro per his instructions with only a couple appts with the dentist to check my progress - so if you exclude the 1 year then I too have been seeing my current dentist about 1 1/2 years now. B/c I was seeing improvement with seeing the chiro though I thought it would mean teeth would then be easier to make - so I kind of just hung in there.
Like you - at some point we will each have to decide how much is too much and when to call it a day and start over with someone else - no matter how much we dread it - we will basically have no choice.
So who did you call - who, what or where is geneva? is that the name of the denture? Did you think of asking that lab guy if he knew of any dentists in your area that are good at making teeth?
I bet though if you keep wearing your old ones you will adjust to it again and go back to that position. Unless of course the shape of the gums have changed drastically too - my bridges did that to me - the replacements pushed the gum around the implants all out of whack and now after not wearing anything (plus having the implants removed) neither the original bridges nor the replacement bridges line up against my gum at all.
Well I have the chiro tomorrow and yipee I get my snow blower back - just have to wait for my BIL to come home from work to go get it - now watch it not snow for the rest of the season - altough that wouldn't be that bad either - lol.
StillHope
01-06-2009, 01:43 AM
Me too, guys, I feel very close with you both. You are kind of my family now, someone who can understand and support.
My news: I called to the last dentist who made two consults for me. They didn't get my fax, so I said I'll resend it. I altered a bit what I want from him. Said that I want a refund first of all and to know his treatment plan for my case so that I can decide about my next visit. Then the dentist called himself saying that he did not receive any fax (maybe: I plugged the machine in another phone jack, I will have to test it later). So he asked what's the matter and I told him all the same over the phone. He said that he spent the time. I said that he supposed to have done some work and not just talked on general stuff b/c I know it by now. He said that knowing is not enough, there should be a diagnostic. I said, yes, so why didn't you do anything on my mouth, teeth. He said, you were arguing. I said, it was just the opposite, I was telling you that I completely agree so let's proceed and you were giving me more and more general info. He said, I think I am not the right dentist for you. (surely, this means that I am not the right patient for him b/c I want smth to be done for $500!!). I said, ok, I agree but I want a refund for the 2nd visit. We argued more than I said that I only had one more consult for as much as $500 which included 3 visits, the x-rays, models, articulation of them properly, and a written treatment plan (this is true, moreover, he knows that dentist b/c he saw his name on the x-rays).
After this he said to resend the fax and that he will get back to me later. I sent it by mail today for more guarantee. We'll see what happens. He might get afraid that I will tell about him to that dentist. It would be nice to get smth back from him, but I don't count on it too much based on my history.
Have not heard yet from the other dentist.
LTC, I am curious too about whom you called about the lab. And agree completely with what TL says that your osteo might as well correct your teeth! Sorry for your headaches. Yes, they appear from banging too hard on the separate teeth, from the jaw being too forward and from the overall malfunction of this system. I have them too these days.
I was confused about your bite. You are right that normally the lower teeth should be a little bit ahead of the uppers. I know this for sure for the canines. But it can vary and as I understand this is what they call "the Class of occlusion": some folks have the lowers inline with the uppers, and some have them behind the uppers, so we get 3 classes.
So it's not the most essential thing, the essential is that you have to bite where you feel comfy (!!) and where your jaw and muscles really want you to bite, not where the teeth "lead your jaw".
According to your test and description you bite too much to the back. Usually they say "to the back" meaning that the lower jaw is further back than it has to be, b/c the upper jaw does not move. You called it "biting too much forward" so it's confusing.
Biting only on the last molars and mostly on one side is surely not right!
If the dentist will correct this then actually your upper fronts might not appear any more being so far out. He definitely has to make a balanced comfy bite on all the back teeth (up to canines) first of all. Then you will likely know where the fronts should really be.
Thanks for the yoga exercise, I'll check it out.
I know how you feel that we are restricted of what people do without even noticing: eating, socializing, driving, etc. I feel the same way, of course. I just try to turn off my feelings; kind of like when you travel you just do what you need to do until you get to your destination. The "flight" has become too long though.
Oh, guys, today is my 9-th Anniversary since I lost my natural healthy fronts, nice smile, healthy gums, had no dental/jaw pain and was busy enjoying my life, sports, friends, ... had a "bright future" in my mind. I call it that I "got in a dental accident". That dentist who lied to me about the med. need for veneers said: just in 10 days you will have your teeth exactly the same way (I loved my teeth) but protected for the future and white (which I didn't care much for).
So still living those 10 days, with more and more pain only! It's 16% of my whole life. Too high for a "dental interest".
TL, what a story for a girl (I mean that accident). It seems that from the braces the fronts were pushed too much to the back and then the lower jaw pushed them out again. From what you describe your bite on the backs is set too far back (I mean the lower jaw too far back) but since it causes gagging (same for me too) the jaw counter moves too forward
causing that the eyes are "popping out" and blurry, etc. It is also very dependent on the proper VDO. I think when I can bite higher on smth, my both positions of "long centric" are very close to each other. It's all very related, that's for sure.
I thought more how you can check your front slope. What if you will take smth like an apple, cut a piece and hold it instead of your upper fronts just to check what shape your lower jaw wants them to be from inside. An apple won't melt as easy as caramel.
BTW, I didn't find the gel self-forming guard in a few drug stores (not Walgreens yet), saw only the ones to boil and mold. What did you mean by a "gel" guard?
TL, you seem to be really interested in all these dental theories of occlusion, etc. There is a classic book by Dr. Dawson which describes it all, especially the last edition "From TMJ to Smile Design". I read what I wanted from it and that's why know a lot of info. NM dentists argue with him but if one is reading the book carefully (like I did) then what they argue with is answered as well. The problem is, and it is really a big problem, that dentists do NOT know well this theory, or even if they do know, they do NOT know how to apply it practically on a patient.
So if one reads the book it becomes clear that our three cases are not even among complex cases, like the ones with huge overbites, cross bites, disk failures and so on. We just need it to be done from scratch carefully and systematically. If done properly it can all work in a very short time, just like you, TL, had it in a moment with caramel! Well, but who is that "careful and systematic dentist"?? This is the problem!
My news: I called to the last dentist who made two consults for me. They didn't get my fax, so I said I'll resend it. I altered a bit what I want from him. Said that I want a refund first of all and to know his treatment plan for my case so that I can decide about my next visit. Then the dentist called himself saying that he did not receive any fax (maybe: I plugged the machine in another phone jack, I will have to test it later). So he asked what's the matter and I told him all the same over the phone. He said that he spent the time. I said that he supposed to have done some work and not just talked on general stuff b/c I know it by now. He said that knowing is not enough, there should be a diagnostic. I said, yes, so why didn't you do anything on my mouth, teeth. He said, you were arguing. I said, it was just the opposite, I was telling you that I completely agree so let's proceed and you were giving me more and more general info. He said, I think I am not the right dentist for you. (surely, this means that I am not the right patient for him b/c I want smth to be done for $500!!). I said, ok, I agree but I want a refund for the 2nd visit. We argued more than I said that I only had one more consult for as much as $500 which included 3 visits, the x-rays, models, articulation of them properly, and a written treatment plan (this is true, moreover, he knows that dentist b/c he saw his name on the x-rays).
After this he said to resend the fax and that he will get back to me later. I sent it by mail today for more guarantee. We'll see what happens. He might get afraid that I will tell about him to that dentist. It would be nice to get smth back from him, but I don't count on it too much based on my history.
Have not heard yet from the other dentist.
LTC, I am curious too about whom you called about the lab. And agree completely with what TL says that your osteo might as well correct your teeth! Sorry for your headaches. Yes, they appear from banging too hard on the separate teeth, from the jaw being too forward and from the overall malfunction of this system. I have them too these days.
I was confused about your bite. You are right that normally the lower teeth should be a little bit ahead of the uppers. I know this for sure for the canines. But it can vary and as I understand this is what they call "the Class of occlusion": some folks have the lowers inline with the uppers, and some have them behind the uppers, so we get 3 classes.
So it's not the most essential thing, the essential is that you have to bite where you feel comfy (!!) and where your jaw and muscles really want you to bite, not where the teeth "lead your jaw".
According to your test and description you bite too much to the back. Usually they say "to the back" meaning that the lower jaw is further back than it has to be, b/c the upper jaw does not move. You called it "biting too much forward" so it's confusing.
Biting only on the last molars and mostly on one side is surely not right!
If the dentist will correct this then actually your upper fronts might not appear any more being so far out. He definitely has to make a balanced comfy bite on all the back teeth (up to canines) first of all. Then you will likely know where the fronts should really be.
Thanks for the yoga exercise, I'll check it out.
I know how you feel that we are restricted of what people do without even noticing: eating, socializing, driving, etc. I feel the same way, of course. I just try to turn off my feelings; kind of like when you travel you just do what you need to do until you get to your destination. The "flight" has become too long though.
Oh, guys, today is my 9-th Anniversary since I lost my natural healthy fronts, nice smile, healthy gums, had no dental/jaw pain and was busy enjoying my life, sports, friends, ... had a "bright future" in my mind. I call it that I "got in a dental accident". That dentist who lied to me about the med. need for veneers said: just in 10 days you will have your teeth exactly the same way (I loved my teeth) but protected for the future and white (which I didn't care much for).
So still living those 10 days, with more and more pain only! It's 16% of my whole life. Too high for a "dental interest".
TL, what a story for a girl (I mean that accident). It seems that from the braces the fronts were pushed too much to the back and then the lower jaw pushed them out again. From what you describe your bite on the backs is set too far back (I mean the lower jaw too far back) but since it causes gagging (same for me too) the jaw counter moves too forward
causing that the eyes are "popping out" and blurry, etc. It is also very dependent on the proper VDO. I think when I can bite higher on smth, my both positions of "long centric" are very close to each other. It's all very related, that's for sure.
I thought more how you can check your front slope. What if you will take smth like an apple, cut a piece and hold it instead of your upper fronts just to check what shape your lower jaw wants them to be from inside. An apple won't melt as easy as caramel.
BTW, I didn't find the gel self-forming guard in a few drug stores (not Walgreens yet), saw only the ones to boil and mold. What did you mean by a "gel" guard?
TL, you seem to be really interested in all these dental theories of occlusion, etc. There is a classic book by Dr. Dawson which describes it all, especially the last edition "From TMJ to Smile Design". I read what I wanted from it and that's why know a lot of info. NM dentists argue with him but if one is reading the book carefully (like I did) then what they argue with is answered as well. The problem is, and it is really a big problem, that dentists do NOT know well this theory, or even if they do know, they do NOT know how to apply it practically on a patient.
So if one reads the book it becomes clear that our three cases are not even among complex cases, like the ones with huge overbites, cross bites, disk failures and so on. We just need it to be done from scratch carefully and systematically. If done properly it can all work in a very short time, just like you, TL, had it in a moment with caramel! Well, but who is that "careful and systematic dentist"?? This is the problem!
luvtocamp
01-06-2009, 08:38 AM
TL- Has it been that long, 2 years, I know you just seen the chiro for a long time but still the same dentist . I agree, we probably need to be move on, which is hard with all the money and time invested, but after a couple years we should be so much better by now.
Hey I hope when you get your blower back you won't need it anymore this year, that would be a good thing.
Hope the chiro goes well. Are you getting tired of going to him? Any problems with medicare paying for weekly visits, did he send in the special paperwork.
Stillhope- that dentist sounds like hes got a big head and so glad you found out before investing even more money in him, and I hope you get that refund. I would bug him till you do.
Do you believe in Dawsons technique, that much mean they don't push the jaw back then hey as I know you don't believe in that. Might be a good investment.
I have a slope, gums in the back bigger than the ones in the front due to the partial I've read. so my back lower gums slope down to the front teeth, and my back upper gums are lower that the front upper gums.
so the headaches are from jaw too forward- thanks.
I hit only the very back teeth but they are moved forward (smaller molars) more space in front of the premolar pads. I know its confusing. Your right I should be hitting on all back teeth.
Your 9th year of this, sorry thats a long time, around 3 for me. Oh seems like a lot longer, seems like an eternity.
Stillhope- just wondering if you had like mris and tomograms and that or is yours all muscular and bad bite?
Hey I hope when you get your blower back you won't need it anymore this year, that would be a good thing.
Hope the chiro goes well. Are you getting tired of going to him? Any problems with medicare paying for weekly visits, did he send in the special paperwork.
Stillhope- that dentist sounds like hes got a big head and so glad you found out before investing even more money in him, and I hope you get that refund. I would bug him till you do.
Do you believe in Dawsons technique, that much mean they don't push the jaw back then hey as I know you don't believe in that. Might be a good investment.
I have a slope, gums in the back bigger than the ones in the front due to the partial I've read. so my back lower gums slope down to the front teeth, and my back upper gums are lower that the front upper gums.
so the headaches are from jaw too forward- thanks.
I hit only the very back teeth but they are moved forward (smaller molars) more space in front of the premolar pads. I know its confusing. Your right I should be hitting on all back teeth.
Your 9th year of this, sorry thats a long time, around 3 for me. Oh seems like a lot longer, seems like an eternity.
Stillhope- just wondering if you had like mris and tomograms and that or is yours all muscular and bad bite?
Thelma-Louise
01-06-2009, 12:01 PM
My anniv is coming up on March 26 - it will be 5 years for me - and when it started I thought to myself - Ok, no problem it will be fixed within a few months - but it just got worse and worse. B/c of the brain fog though I really have a hard time remebering anything over the past 5 years other than what was done in my mouth - do you guys find that too? Its just one big blur - but I can clearly remember things I was doing on my last day of work and before then too.
Funny you talk about the slope or incline - in several sets of temps I have felt they made my bicuspids or teeth just behind the upper canine too long and this pushes my upper back teeth down and for some reason I used to feel like my upper back teeth were wedged way up in my cheeks somewhere - and that my palate and front teeth pointed downward a bit - especially when lying down - does this make sense. But by making theose teeth behind the canines longer I felt like my upper back teeth would get pushed down onto my lower back teeth - and this cause a lot of pressure behind my upper front teeth. I guess I will have to go look for that book but I have tried looking for books before and never know what section to look in and then I get frustrated and leave.
Stillhope - from day one I have asked each dentist to work on one side only until it felt comfy and then the next side until it too felt comfy and then the front - leave the front for last b/c once the sides are "balanced" and working the position of the front teeth would become more apparrent but each felt dentist felt this would not work for one reason or another. Its probably too tedious for them and time consuming. One dr did agree with me but it was easy for him to do so - he had already told me my case was too complex for him. Oh - I haven't had an apple in my mouth since I got my implants in 1993. LOL
The mouth guard I was referring to is the one you have to boil - it turns to soft gel when heated - just don't over boil it. I wonder if nuking it woould work too since you could better control how soft and how hot it would get. I think it was around $25 -$30 and it came in diff sizes. By the big one that way you have more to play with.
LTC - no payment from Medicare for any of my visits since last year - and I have asked and asked the girl at the chiro office did they do this and send that - the problem is he keeps having diff girls at his home office where I go for the adjust that are from his NYC office - so I have to keep re-explaining the problem - each time they pull out my file and see the writtin note I gave them about what needed to be done and say they will look into it and then within a few weeks there's a diff girl there again. Its frustrating - and b/c he he already has payment - and doesn't really accept med insurance other than the Medicare- its no big deal with them. The only chiro that was great with ins was my first one - his office even called and got them to extend the num of visits I was allowed from 26 to 52 2 yrs in a row. Medicare told me I could appeal the claims myself and I guess I will have to soon otherwise they will be too old for processing.
Stillhope - glad you are fighting for your money - my first guy robbed me blind but I was just so sick at the time I couldn't fight him - I felt at that point I was struggling to stay alive - literally - and prayed to god to "take care of the unethical jerk" for me in his own way. What is worng with these dentists that they think it is OK to take money for not doing anything other than spouting what they know and learned form a book?:mad:
I tried doing exercise in the beginning - but found at that point the lack of equilibrium would get worse - so I limited it to low floor exercises to stretch my muscles - but now with walking the dogs I feel like I am "exercising" 3 times a day but probably not really what my body does need to relax more.
Well I am off to the chiro - am having another bout of full body pain - it started Sat in the groin an dpelvic area and then worked its way to the "cheeks that don't smile" so sitting hurt and down my legs so now every step causes pain on my front shin bones and my feet feel like they have marbles under them again - so frustrating - I feel like I am over 100 yrs old and am rickety.
Funny you talk about the slope or incline - in several sets of temps I have felt they made my bicuspids or teeth just behind the upper canine too long and this pushes my upper back teeth down and for some reason I used to feel like my upper back teeth were wedged way up in my cheeks somewhere - and that my palate and front teeth pointed downward a bit - especially when lying down - does this make sense. But by making theose teeth behind the canines longer I felt like my upper back teeth would get pushed down onto my lower back teeth - and this cause a lot of pressure behind my upper front teeth. I guess I will have to go look for that book but I have tried looking for books before and never know what section to look in and then I get frustrated and leave.
Stillhope - from day one I have asked each dentist to work on one side only until it felt comfy and then the next side until it too felt comfy and then the front - leave the front for last b/c once the sides are "balanced" and working the position of the front teeth would become more apparrent but each felt dentist felt this would not work for one reason or another. Its probably too tedious for them and time consuming. One dr did agree with me but it was easy for him to do so - he had already told me my case was too complex for him. Oh - I haven't had an apple in my mouth since I got my implants in 1993. LOL
The mouth guard I was referring to is the one you have to boil - it turns to soft gel when heated - just don't over boil it. I wonder if nuking it woould work too since you could better control how soft and how hot it would get. I think it was around $25 -$30 and it came in diff sizes. By the big one that way you have more to play with.
LTC - no payment from Medicare for any of my visits since last year - and I have asked and asked the girl at the chiro office did they do this and send that - the problem is he keeps having diff girls at his home office where I go for the adjust that are from his NYC office - so I have to keep re-explaining the problem - each time they pull out my file and see the writtin note I gave them about what needed to be done and say they will look into it and then within a few weeks there's a diff girl there again. Its frustrating - and b/c he he already has payment - and doesn't really accept med insurance other than the Medicare- its no big deal with them. The only chiro that was great with ins was my first one - his office even called and got them to extend the num of visits I was allowed from 26 to 52 2 yrs in a row. Medicare told me I could appeal the claims myself and I guess I will have to soon otherwise they will be too old for processing.
Stillhope - glad you are fighting for your money - my first guy robbed me blind but I was just so sick at the time I couldn't fight him - I felt at that point I was struggling to stay alive - literally - and prayed to god to "take care of the unethical jerk" for me in his own way. What is worng with these dentists that they think it is OK to take money for not doing anything other than spouting what they know and learned form a book?:mad:
I tried doing exercise in the beginning - but found at that point the lack of equilibrium would get worse - so I limited it to low floor exercises to stretch my muscles - but now with walking the dogs I feel like I am "exercising" 3 times a day but probably not really what my body does need to relax more.
Well I am off to the chiro - am having another bout of full body pain - it started Sat in the groin an dpelvic area and then worked its way to the "cheeks that don't smile" so sitting hurt and down my legs so now every step causes pain on my front shin bones and my feet feel like they have marbles under them again - so frustrating - I feel like I am over 100 yrs old and am rickety.
luvtocamp
01-06-2009, 01:54 PM
TL- the new year is starting so so should your chiro visits- the allottment for the year, or they need to call Medicare for you. I don't know how you can afford to keep paying when it should be covered. Now do you have medigap?
My medigap pays the 20% medicare doesn't.
Well girls I was searching the net, and all of a sudden a dentist site popped up and turns out he is in my town. He is a neruo dentist, and I told the office girls I did not want the tens unit or splints (I will not get another splint) or anything like that, just someone who can figure out my bite without all that stuff, and she said ok.
he has his own lab, but need to sends out for final processing. Hes been in practice since 1990. I have a consult for Thurs afternoon- don't want to get my hopes up, but maybe it was a sign for this dental site to pop up after I've been searching so hard for a dentist in town. Hes around 5 miles from me.
TL- hope you feel better after your appoint. let me know.
Yes Stillhope- I feel the same way, nothing brings people closer together than those who have a lot in common, unfortunately its the bad word-TMJ- we can emphasize with eachother. Thank goodness or I'd feel like soul out here in the world.
My medigap pays the 20% medicare doesn't.
Well girls I was searching the net, and all of a sudden a dentist site popped up and turns out he is in my town. He is a neruo dentist, and I told the office girls I did not want the tens unit or splints (I will not get another splint) or anything like that, just someone who can figure out my bite without all that stuff, and she said ok.
he has his own lab, but need to sends out for final processing. Hes been in practice since 1990. I have a consult for Thurs afternoon- don't want to get my hopes up, but maybe it was a sign for this dental site to pop up after I've been searching so hard for a dentist in town. Hes around 5 miles from me.
TL- hope you feel better after your appoint. let me know.
Yes Stillhope- I feel the same way, nothing brings people closer together than those who have a lot in common, unfortunately its the bad word-TMJ- we can emphasize with eachother. Thank goodness or I'd feel like soul out here in the world.
Thelma-Louise
01-06-2009, 05:32 PM
How exciting LTC - and he's in your own back yard - sometimes things happend for a reason. I bookedmark the the web site of the guy I found last month that is new in my town, I figure if these splints don't work this time I will at least make an consult appt to see what he has to say or offer. See -I get worried too when a dr mentions he has treated several patients form Dr So and So - the currnet tmj dentist knew all 3 of the other drs I let treat me - called the first one a crack and told me the other 2 employ treatment based on a specific type of occlusional philosophy - and supposedly my dentist uses a different one. I am so excited just thinking about your appt though - did you ask how much for the consult and how long it would be for?
No I don't have Medigap - I will have to look into it though. When I tried getting something thru AARP they told me I had to be 65 or older even though I am on Medicare - which I didn't understand. The other thing is the premium - if the premiums for add'l insurance surpass what I am paying for my chiro appts I don't see how it would help much, you know?
Oh - I just realized I need to go meet my BIL and get the snowblower - so I got to run - and its supposed to snow tonight too. I'll be back later.
No I don't have Medigap - I will have to look into it though. When I tried getting something thru AARP they told me I had to be 65 or older even though I am on Medicare - which I didn't understand. The other thing is the premium - if the premiums for add'l insurance surpass what I am paying for my chiro appts I don't see how it would help much, you know?
Oh - I just realized I need to go meet my BIL and get the snowblower - so I got to run - and its supposed to snow tonight too. I'll be back later.
StillHope
01-06-2009, 07:14 PM
Looked through your messages but am too tired to think and reply anything meaningful. TL, this time I am also on the complete survival mode, can't sleep, can't eat even what I could before, it's all liquid, moreover I do not have any appetite or even thirstiness which you understand is not a good sign and this state won't help me to get out. I had to go to a store yesterday and maybe from wearing my temps for too long I barely made it home and fell asleep (of course, around 3 am) but with a wrong temp bridge. Don't know what was the cause, but today I am barely alive all day, am so dizzy, nauseous, feel almost fever from the head aches. I badly need to sleep and am horrified at the thought of how I can do it.
Only managed to call the dentist who created it (he said he didn't get the letter), he was telling me that "I did not want to see him when he wanted to schedule". Unbelievable, he never offered any follow up, no plan how to help me, at some point he wanted to redo the BR and I said that I am in such pain that it was useless b/c my jaw was constantly pulled to the back and one side and the jaw felt twisted. I thought I'd be able to relax but this time since there is not a single piece of my former temps and teeth that can touch the same way as until his work, I am completely unable to function.
Anyway, he said he can see me next Tuesday and that "there are many types of appliances; we'll have to see what you can tolerate". The problem with him is that he knows a lot of theory (he was a teacher, I told you) but from what he tried already he can't do any of the multiple techniques that he knows exist. He doesn't even have an assistant, doesn't send anything to a lab, tries to do everything himself.
Basically, I am not relying much on what he will try.
So if I will feel any better than today will look for someone to make an NTI and will buy an nightguard (today can't even walk easily in the house).
I meant an apple not for eating but as a possible material to make the same as from caramel.
LTC, I am so glad you found someone nearby who can possibly work for you. Just ask everything upfront about their treatment, the results and the back-ups for you not to get worse. Wishing you to move out from your rut soon!
Well, I am collapsing, hopefully will write tomorrow.
Only managed to call the dentist who created it (he said he didn't get the letter), he was telling me that "I did not want to see him when he wanted to schedule". Unbelievable, he never offered any follow up, no plan how to help me, at some point he wanted to redo the BR and I said that I am in such pain that it was useless b/c my jaw was constantly pulled to the back and one side and the jaw felt twisted. I thought I'd be able to relax but this time since there is not a single piece of my former temps and teeth that can touch the same way as until his work, I am completely unable to function.
Anyway, he said he can see me next Tuesday and that "there are many types of appliances; we'll have to see what you can tolerate". The problem with him is that he knows a lot of theory (he was a teacher, I told you) but from what he tried already he can't do any of the multiple techniques that he knows exist. He doesn't even have an assistant, doesn't send anything to a lab, tries to do everything himself.
Basically, I am not relying much on what he will try.
So if I will feel any better than today will look for someone to make an NTI and will buy an nightguard (today can't even walk easily in the house).
I meant an apple not for eating but as a possible material to make the same as from caramel.
LTC, I am so glad you found someone nearby who can possibly work for you. Just ask everything upfront about their treatment, the results and the back-ups for you not to get worse. Wishing you to move out from your rut soon!
Well, I am collapsing, hopefully will write tomorrow.
Thelma-Louise
01-06-2009, 08:52 PM
Well I am back. - Stillhope - have you given any thought to asking your PCP for something to help relax you so you can sleep. Sleep is so vital especially when you can not eat anything. Also I spent my first year on the protein and vitamin drinks like Ensure and tuna fish salad - don't know why but I think the mayo just made it easy to swallow plus I could mush it up real small - but it took me 2 days to eat one can since I too had no appetite back then. I sometimes take a couple tylenol PM - also try sleeping in a recliner if you have one or semi-upright - sometimes in this position you have a better chance of balancing the jaw and getting it to at least stay still long enough for you to sleep a little.
So the guy you are going to see is someone who made your upper bridge? Is he going to make a new one?
I'm still so very excited LTC about this Thursday. My 2nd tmj dentist had his own lab too and I must say it makes things easier and certainly much quicker as they can have things made and altered while you wait - plus the lab guy - unless this dentist does his own work - can come look at you while he is working on your teeth. Do make sure you get as much info from him as possible in terms of what he suggests be done and how much, etc - but you know the drill - its just hard though to remember everything during these consults sometimes though, isn't it? I think at some point I am going to write up a questionaire of my own and ask dentists to complete it just as they do with me - although their's always ask for my SSN just in case I don''t pay. Too bad we couldn't do that to solicit refunds for their failures.
I'm doing the same - the chiro said my hips rotated again but he expected it due to last weeks cranial adjustment. I am walking one hip in front of the other again and my butt hurts bad - plus now I am getting that headache back - sometime it feels like all he does is move whatever is torqued from one place to another. And I can't keep my legs together - it feels like my pelvis is going to break into 2 peices when I do. I asked him about this one spot (my dentist called it a notch) on my lower jaw near my left ear that keeps getting a throbbing thru it and he said he would talk to me about that after the adjustment - but then I forgot to ask him about it again. It just so happens he asked me to put my thumb there while he did an adjustment to my sternum - and as soon as I did that - it throbbed and I got this sick feeling in my stomach - plus I keep feeling something move beneath the jaw on that side - maybe the condyl? - so I wanted to know what significance that spot had since I have never spoken to him about it - yet he had me put my finger on that exact spot during the adjustment.
Well - I am keeping my fingers crossed for both of you - I do so hope this our last year with this.
So the guy you are going to see is someone who made your upper bridge? Is he going to make a new one?
I'm still so very excited LTC about this Thursday. My 2nd tmj dentist had his own lab too and I must say it makes things easier and certainly much quicker as they can have things made and altered while you wait - plus the lab guy - unless this dentist does his own work - can come look at you while he is working on your teeth. Do make sure you get as much info from him as possible in terms of what he suggests be done and how much, etc - but you know the drill - its just hard though to remember everything during these consults sometimes though, isn't it? I think at some point I am going to write up a questionaire of my own and ask dentists to complete it just as they do with me - although their's always ask for my SSN just in case I don''t pay. Too bad we couldn't do that to solicit refunds for their failures.
I'm doing the same - the chiro said my hips rotated again but he expected it due to last weeks cranial adjustment. I am walking one hip in front of the other again and my butt hurts bad - plus now I am getting that headache back - sometime it feels like all he does is move whatever is torqued from one place to another. And I can't keep my legs together - it feels like my pelvis is going to break into 2 peices when I do. I asked him about this one spot (my dentist called it a notch) on my lower jaw near my left ear that keeps getting a throbbing thru it and he said he would talk to me about that after the adjustment - but then I forgot to ask him about it again. It just so happens he asked me to put my thumb there while he did an adjustment to my sternum - and as soon as I did that - it throbbed and I got this sick feeling in my stomach - plus I keep feeling something move beneath the jaw on that side - maybe the condyl? - so I wanted to know what significance that spot had since I have never spoken to him about it - yet he had me put my finger on that exact spot during the adjustment.
Well - I am keeping my fingers crossed for both of you - I do so hope this our last year with this.
luvtocamp
01-07-2009, 09:19 AM
TL- oh the notch below you ear on the jaw, I bet its where muscles and tendons attach and the other end goes to the sternum, that is tight on my R. side too. And the twisted pelvis, and butt pain. I also have that, isn't it just the most awful feeling, I think the but pain is from the muscles and tendons pulling.Mine either is in the sacrum area or tailbone area, it travels.
Yes AARP is for retired people not people on disability. I have BCBS medigap and their script plan, but am looking into humana, as they keep raising the prices at BCBS.
How much does your chiro charge for a visit? My osteo charges $95, but she is worth it. I will probably keep seeing her even after my bite is fixed.
I have a osteo appoint at 4pm, but the roads are bad now and suppose to snow all day, so I may cancell. She is clear accross town and I'm not taking any chances on bad roads. Hopes it clears as I should go. I should never make an appoint. late in the day , because I always feel worst as the day goes on.
Boy this is one bad winter, glad you got your snowblower back. Its either freezing cold here or its snowing or sleeting.
Stillhope= you need something to help you sleep. Sleep is the most imp. thing right now for us. Even maybe a hypnosis tape. I have made my own tapes I use on my mini tape recorder. But even tylenol Pm would help. You need something to relax those muscles, I take a magnesium vit and that helps if you don't want a muscle relaxer. As for me, I will take whateven gets me thru the day at this point.
Well I don't think a receptionist should talk about another dentist like she did, thats not a good thing. The consult is free, I see he has had some training in LVI , but is not a graduate or he'd be listed on their site. That is fine tho,
want to get his opinion on what I'm wearing, what his philosophy on bite with dentures and how many dentures he makes, kinda like this time I feel I'm the one interviewing, and if hes willing to take the time to work on me without breaking the bank. I'm not going to make any commitment at the consult.
Yes I hope our problems get resolved this year too, by Spring!!
Well there testimonilal on his website and she said she'd talk to anyone and so I called her and she said he uses the tens unit and splint- so I don't know, since I don't want either one of those, so this may not be the dentist for me, but she said he was nice.
Yes AARP is for retired people not people on disability. I have BCBS medigap and their script plan, but am looking into humana, as they keep raising the prices at BCBS.
How much does your chiro charge for a visit? My osteo charges $95, but she is worth it. I will probably keep seeing her even after my bite is fixed.
I have a osteo appoint at 4pm, but the roads are bad now and suppose to snow all day, so I may cancell. She is clear accross town and I'm not taking any chances on bad roads. Hopes it clears as I should go. I should never make an appoint. late in the day , because I always feel worst as the day goes on.
Boy this is one bad winter, glad you got your snowblower back. Its either freezing cold here or its snowing or sleeting.
Stillhope= you need something to help you sleep. Sleep is the most imp. thing right now for us. Even maybe a hypnosis tape. I have made my own tapes I use on my mini tape recorder. But even tylenol Pm would help. You need something to relax those muscles, I take a magnesium vit and that helps if you don't want a muscle relaxer. As for me, I will take whateven gets me thru the day at this point.
Well I don't think a receptionist should talk about another dentist like she did, thats not a good thing. The consult is free, I see he has had some training in LVI , but is not a graduate or he'd be listed on their site. That is fine tho,
want to get his opinion on what I'm wearing, what his philosophy on bite with dentures and how many dentures he makes, kinda like this time I feel I'm the one interviewing, and if hes willing to take the time to work on me without breaking the bank. I'm not going to make any commitment at the consult.
Yes I hope our problems get resolved this year too, by Spring!!
Well there testimonilal on his website and she said she'd talk to anyone and so I called her and she said he uses the tens unit and splint- so I don't know, since I don't want either one of those, so this may not be the dentist for me, but she said he was nice.
Thelma-Louise
01-07-2009, 12:58 PM
I know - every once in a while my dentist mentions using the tnes unit and I give hime the evil eye. I think though part of the reason it doesn't work with us is that our jaws and cranial bones are not alinged properly - at least for me b/c I have this crossing or scissor like motion giong on - it feels like it just insensifies - if it was just our muscles being taut - I could see how it would work or help relax them - but I really think they are tight b/c they are being over stretched from not being where they should be. See what he says - he may agree not to use it with you. The one neuro dentist I went insisted on using it but my muscles would actually get worse - its hooked up to a monitor that you can watch - at one point he kept me on it for over an hour and when he saw how badly things had gotten - that's when he said I needed to see a NUCCA chiro and that what I had wasn't really a muscular problem but a cranial and cervical problem.
Initially my current chiro was charging me $85 and I was getting I think about $40 back from my private med ins - but once I told him I went on Medicare (and dropped my private med ins which was $617 a month under COBRA) he started charging me $52 and change for each visit. Where he came up with this odd number, I don't know. So basically he is charging me about $210 a month (assuming 4 wks in a mos) so add to that the Medicare premium of $96 and I am spending around $310 a month now. And I haven't done the cranial sacral therapy or the PT in 2 yrs now. How much does Medigap cost per month - do you have it just for yourself or your husband too? How much is medicare and medigap reimbursing you for each osteo appt?
Aside from that though the medigap is still a good idea b/c should I ever need to go into the hospital or have some other medical condition 20% not covered of any medical cost these days could still break the bank, you know. And right now I don't have any covereage for meds either.
Is that person you spoke to still a patient - was he able to help her? Was her problem similar to yours?
Well it started snowing yesterday and then turned to sleet - now everything is a sheet of ice and its raining, so I ddid't get to test my snowblower - although I am stilling hoping I won't have to either.
This is the one thing we differ on - I feel better the more the day goes on - my worst period is the first 2-3 or 4 hrs in the morning - I think during the day though the more I just let my lower jaw drop down - the better I start feeling - again another reason why I don't want to go to bed at night b/c the next morning can be so rough.
I hope Still hope gets some sleep soon - once I finally did start taking meds - I realized how the much worse the lack of sleep was making things - and at that point put my qualms about taking them aside - getting more sleep just helped me be stronger and able to tolerate the pain more during the day - plus they really can knock you out - so you sleep regardless of the pain or muscle twitching and constant jaw rocking, jerking or movement.
Initially my current chiro was charging me $85 and I was getting I think about $40 back from my private med ins - but once I told him I went on Medicare (and dropped my private med ins which was $617 a month under COBRA) he started charging me $52 and change for each visit. Where he came up with this odd number, I don't know. So basically he is charging me about $210 a month (assuming 4 wks in a mos) so add to that the Medicare premium of $96 and I am spending around $310 a month now. And I haven't done the cranial sacral therapy or the PT in 2 yrs now. How much does Medigap cost per month - do you have it just for yourself or your husband too? How much is medicare and medigap reimbursing you for each osteo appt?
Aside from that though the medigap is still a good idea b/c should I ever need to go into the hospital or have some other medical condition 20% not covered of any medical cost these days could still break the bank, you know. And right now I don't have any covereage for meds either.
Is that person you spoke to still a patient - was he able to help her? Was her problem similar to yours?
Well it started snowing yesterday and then turned to sleet - now everything is a sheet of ice and its raining, so I ddid't get to test my snowblower - although I am stilling hoping I won't have to either.
This is the one thing we differ on - I feel better the more the day goes on - my worst period is the first 2-3 or 4 hrs in the morning - I think during the day though the more I just let my lower jaw drop down - the better I start feeling - again another reason why I don't want to go to bed at night b/c the next morning can be so rough.
I hope Still hope gets some sleep soon - once I finally did start taking meds - I realized how the much worse the lack of sleep was making things - and at that point put my qualms about taking them aside - getting more sleep just helped me be stronger and able to tolerate the pain more during the day - plus they really can knock you out - so you sleep regardless of the pain or muscle twitching and constant jaw rocking, jerking or movement.
luvtocamp
01-07-2009, 01:48 PM
Right now I pay $117 a month for the medigap and $50 for the script coverage, they just raised the script coverage and I'm waiting to see if they raise the medigap coverage. Medicare pays $76 a visit and BCBS $19 so nothing out of my pocket. Whatever medicare pays 80% of they pay the rest. We got a decent raise on our checks this month hey, but usually the increase in insurance takes it.
If you do the pt or osteo it will pay for itself or like if you need hosp. or er visit.
My husband has his own ins and being self employed its alot.
She said that was two years ago and she was his first patient so he didn't charge her. She said she still wears a splint at night, but in her opinion he cured her tmj. She had the clicking in the joint and bad headaches and some arthritis in the joints, and it would lock up I guess, it started after she got adult braces I guess. She still goes to him as she said hes nice and does a good job with the general dental stuff.
Oh I remember the tens treatments, they just made me worst and wont do them again. I could not relax while on it, and you sit there for 45 mins doing it, I don't think its necessary. Now I told her I wont do tens or splints, watch him try to talk me into it.
I really think they should be able to decipher your bite without doing that, did they put the probes right on your joint? , mine did, and I wonder if that just wouldnt' maybe mess your joint up more with the pulsating.
Oh my husband is taking off early to bring me, otherwise I'd cancell. Its snowing and at that time of day the traffic is heavy.
You feel better as the day goes on, and I feel worst, wonder what that means.
I know not sleeping makes everything worst. Do the tylenol PM reallly help you sleep??
If you do the pt or osteo it will pay for itself or like if you need hosp. or er visit.
My husband has his own ins and being self employed its alot.
She said that was two years ago and she was his first patient so he didn't charge her. She said she still wears a splint at night, but in her opinion he cured her tmj. She had the clicking in the joint and bad headaches and some arthritis in the joints, and it would lock up I guess, it started after she got adult braces I guess. She still goes to him as she said hes nice and does a good job with the general dental stuff.
Oh I remember the tens treatments, they just made me worst and wont do them again. I could not relax while on it, and you sit there for 45 mins doing it, I don't think its necessary. Now I told her I wont do tens or splints, watch him try to talk me into it.
I really think they should be able to decipher your bite without doing that, did they put the probes right on your joint? , mine did, and I wonder if that just wouldnt' maybe mess your joint up more with the pulsating.
Oh my husband is taking off early to bring me, otherwise I'd cancell. Its snowing and at that time of day the traffic is heavy.
You feel better as the day goes on, and I feel worst, wonder what that means.
I know not sleeping makes everything worst. Do the tylenol PM reallly help you sleep??
Thelma-Louise
01-07-2009, 03:51 PM
Oh - yes the tylenol PM helps quite a bit with sleeping but I am concerned about the LT affects of using acetaminophine - thought I read somewhere it could cause heart problems or was that NSAIDs? I buy the store brand as it is 1/2 the price of Tylenol. I usually have to take it 1 to 1 1/2 hrs before I want to sleep though and if I forget to take it and take it later then when I should have that is often why I am up late. Otherwise I seldom can sleep on my own unless I am that exhausted. Sometimes though if the body pain is pretty bad or I am getting body or jaw jerking and the tylenol doesn't help me sleep that is when I go for the baclofen or triavil.
I tend to think sometime with me its more about how the darn teeth are fitting or really - not fitting - in my mouth and how my muscles are moving - plus the fact I have the one upper side with teeth longer than the other and the same on the bottom only vice versa - that doesn't help. Sometimes my teeth don't feel like they are where they should be - and I agree they should be able to pick up on a bite or occlusion issue without using the tens unit - but if the teeth aren't where they should be to begin with - what are they actually checking?
I think I feel worse in the morning b/c of the position my jaw is in when sleeping - since both sides don't meet the same - I mean I actually feel my upper palate is tilted down toward the left in the morning yet the lower left feels like it is shifted upward - and once I get up and moving about I feel the left upper shift upward and then things start feeling better but it takes a couple hrs - plus this shifting then makes my lower jaw shift as well and that's when I will get a few facial spasms as well. It sounds like you are in a relatively good position during the night so your muscles relax a bit and then once you are up and about the imbalance in the bite begins to take affect again.
I am feeling better today though - at least my butt doesn't hurt as much but I still have some pain in my groin especially on the right side. But the face feels crooked again - looks like I can't seem to have everything feeling good at the same time.
Let me know how your osteo appt goes.
I tend to think sometime with me its more about how the darn teeth are fitting or really - not fitting - in my mouth and how my muscles are moving - plus the fact I have the one upper side with teeth longer than the other and the same on the bottom only vice versa - that doesn't help. Sometimes my teeth don't feel like they are where they should be - and I agree they should be able to pick up on a bite or occlusion issue without using the tens unit - but if the teeth aren't where they should be to begin with - what are they actually checking?
I think I feel worse in the morning b/c of the position my jaw is in when sleeping - since both sides don't meet the same - I mean I actually feel my upper palate is tilted down toward the left in the morning yet the lower left feels like it is shifted upward - and once I get up and moving about I feel the left upper shift upward and then things start feeling better but it takes a couple hrs - plus this shifting then makes my lower jaw shift as well and that's when I will get a few facial spasms as well. It sounds like you are in a relatively good position during the night so your muscles relax a bit and then once you are up and about the imbalance in the bite begins to take affect again.
I am feeling better today though - at least my butt doesn't hurt as much but I still have some pain in my groin especially on the right side. But the face feels crooked again - looks like I can't seem to have everything feeling good at the same time.
Let me know how your osteo appt goes.
luvtocamp
01-07-2009, 07:08 PM
Nsaids are hard on the stomach, and tylenol can be hard on the liver if taken in large doses. I sould try the generic tylenol Pm and see how it works.
She said my arm was all twisted and ribs were twisted, but that doesn't explain the tighness of the neck throat, leg etc. she is good tho, made my pelvis better.......... till tomorrow anyway.
"I agree they should be able to pick up on a bite or occlusion issue without using the tens unit - but if the teeth aren't where they should be to begin with - what are they actually checking?"
I agree, if our muscles are tight its obvious our bites are not right. I think it can be a money making thing, I mean they charge alot more for bite adjustments when using the tens machine.
I usually sleep on one side or another, but I'm taking my lower partial out at night. You pobably sift for the good in the morning. if thats the case you should visit the dentist later in the day , and I should go in the morning ya know , when we feel our best.
Gee do you think any of our dentist read this site- this board?
Tired , time for PJ's.
She said my arm was all twisted and ribs were twisted, but that doesn't explain the tighness of the neck throat, leg etc. she is good tho, made my pelvis better.......... till tomorrow anyway.
"I agree they should be able to pick up on a bite or occlusion issue without using the tens unit - but if the teeth aren't where they should be to begin with - what are they actually checking?"
I agree, if our muscles are tight its obvious our bites are not right. I think it can be a money making thing, I mean they charge alot more for bite adjustments when using the tens machine.
I usually sleep on one side or another, but I'm taking my lower partial out at night. You pobably sift for the good in the morning. if thats the case you should visit the dentist later in the day , and I should go in the morning ya know , when we feel our best.
Gee do you think any of our dentist read this site- this board?
Tired , time for PJ's.
Thelma-Louise
01-07-2009, 08:01 PM
I mentioned the site once to my dr but haven't since then when I realized he could probably figure out who I was - I am sure if mine googles his name many of my posts will pop up and he will be able to figure out who TL is - LOL.
Sometimes though I do wish a professional would post on this board as they often do in the Dental Problem forums - maybe they are just too busy to do so or have more than enough patients to deal with - or know what we know - tmj is like playing russian roullette or poker with a bunch of wild cards.
I still don't understand the use of the tens unit though - if your jaw jerks to open or moves sideways when trying to open or when in a chewing motion - what purpose does the tens unit have other than forcing it to make the awkward motion more often and causing more pain and muscle strain?
Well I hope you get a good nights rest and still feel better tomorrow. Oh and tomorrow is the appt - good luck with that and post as soon as you can - I hope he doesn't poke around too much and exercerbate things. Better take a muscle relaxant before hand.
Sometimes though I do wish a professional would post on this board as they often do in the Dental Problem forums - maybe they are just too busy to do so or have more than enough patients to deal with - or know what we know - tmj is like playing russian roullette or poker with a bunch of wild cards.
I still don't understand the use of the tens unit though - if your jaw jerks to open or moves sideways when trying to open or when in a chewing motion - what purpose does the tens unit have other than forcing it to make the awkward motion more often and causing more pain and muscle strain?
Well I hope you get a good nights rest and still feel better tomorrow. Oh and tomorrow is the appt - good luck with that and post as soon as you can - I hope he doesn't poke around too much and exercerbate things. Better take a muscle relaxant before hand.
StillHope
01-07-2009, 09:37 PM
Thanks for your concerns about my sleep. I took Tylenol and almost went to my recliner, was just too tired to pull my blanket and many pillows there and somehow felt asleep in bed; woke up at night from suffocation due to the jaw being too much back, but managed to sleep more. So I am a bit better today, bought a night-guard -thanks TL! Will try to adjust it to some temp set.
No, the last dentist did not make the new uppers himself which was the plan. First, he said that he will add a composite to raise the premolar and will replace one crown by a temp which again he said can be backed-up by a copy. I had this done long ago for a cracked crown and a copy was made in 10 minutes and was so identical that even the crack was there. I couldn't believe first that this was a copy (but the ceramic one was, of course, cut in two pieces). So I felt safe with this plan.
Instead, he added composite also on the canine w/o even telling me and as you know, TL, this messed up a lot. He also filed down the last ceramic molar and made my low VDO next to zero! It was even worse: when he was trying to make his temps he pulled out my build-ups and refused to make them again (it was $900 previous work). So my old temps were not usable any longer. Then he suggested to use my spare upper set and I agreed b/c I can't think well on the spot. He made me bang onto them, as an articulator, for 6 hours!!! (I mean the whole visit was this long) with my hurting tmj and dysfunctional muscles and "no bite"; he didn't even let me take breaks for eating or drinking (well, I couldn't have eaten anyway). When I left I had to take it all out in order to drive home but could not wear them at all: they are twisting my jaw and create constant pain.
The whole situation was made completely irreversible, and I could not use a single part from my previous temps. I came in to him w/o the jaw pain, managed to keep my jaw in place somehow for over a month. And it's all after telling me that he will go "gradually" and will not do anything irreversible! He couldn't make any improvement after that. That's why I practically have no temps to put on. I tried adjusting the old ones myself but too much has changed. It has to be done really from scratch at this point.
So all I want from him now is to make me an appliance (like NTI, or so) to sleep in.
Oh, today I called KOIS center and asked for their graduates in NJ. There are two in Madison, TL, maybe it's not far from you? If you are interested I'll give you the names. One, lady is in Middletown. I will try to see her for a consult. Those three had the full occlusion training (9 courses). I like the idea of a questionnaire for dentists!!!:D They don't like to have anything in writing though!
I agree that the best way is to alter one side at a time and have it all backed-up.
You are lucky, guys to find dentists with the lab on-site. It's so rare.
TL, when you say, a tmj specialist is this a prosthodontist, orthodontist?? A dentist told me there is no such thing as a tmj specialist.
LTC, yes, be careful with an lvi dentist; they have a lot of trainings on how to organize their business and make a lot of money.
For me too, the TENS unit made things worse. I had it few times already, after the last one had to "undo" the pain for 2 weeks. I think the idea is to make these muscles exhausted and then they relax once it's over. But the muscles can only relax well when the teeth are not on their way or not misleading them somewhere like it is in our cases.
Like you I have very painful spots below and behind the ears as I think from the jaw constantly falling to the back (which I have to fight with in order not to get choking, etc.); I think it's also from low VDO and not having the teeth in place where the jaw wants to bite.
TL, is your pelvis rotates outward, I mean the leg all together? I have this towards the left side when the jaw is shifted to the left and to the right when the jaw is to the right from the normal biting position.
LTC, yes, I am so glad I stopped with the last dentist before even starting and it's for $500! Not so little, but surely better than few thousands $ lost which I had too few times already! I was robbed, as you say, TL, too, quite a few times, pure lies, clear "breach of agreements", obnoxious behavior of dentists, but I have no energy to try getting my money back.
I had a CtScan and a Doppler test for my jaw; it was not too bad, just the disks are worn out, especially one and it showed that my physiological jaw path is exactly as I tell dentists about, but they keep on making the temps which lead the jaw diagonally to its path! I believe it depends on the lower "plane of occlusion". It's like a slope on which one can sledge. The slope determines where the sledges will end up.
BTW, it's not a plane, check it on the sites, it's nice. It will make sense with what you explained about your teeth lengths.
My memory is horrible too. It was good, TL that you mentioned about the Alzheimer hints; now I don't feel bad making notes about everything and started doing it more systematically. And we are only in our 50-is!
I hope this will improve when we get out bites and rest some. Can't believe that we are in the overall states that we are!
LTC, can't wait to know about your lvi dentist and his plan, hopefully w/o the tens. They might understand better about the proper space for the lips and cheeks, and that you should be able to close them!
TL, you will see your dentist this week or next? Maybe he really got challenged now and will make it work?! This would be so great! We need to get out of the ruts!!
No, the last dentist did not make the new uppers himself which was the plan. First, he said that he will add a composite to raise the premolar and will replace one crown by a temp which again he said can be backed-up by a copy. I had this done long ago for a cracked crown and a copy was made in 10 minutes and was so identical that even the crack was there. I couldn't believe first that this was a copy (but the ceramic one was, of course, cut in two pieces). So I felt safe with this plan.
Instead, he added composite also on the canine w/o even telling me and as you know, TL, this messed up a lot. He also filed down the last ceramic molar and made my low VDO next to zero! It was even worse: when he was trying to make his temps he pulled out my build-ups and refused to make them again (it was $900 previous work). So my old temps were not usable any longer. Then he suggested to use my spare upper set and I agreed b/c I can't think well on the spot. He made me bang onto them, as an articulator, for 6 hours!!! (I mean the whole visit was this long) with my hurting tmj and dysfunctional muscles and "no bite"; he didn't even let me take breaks for eating or drinking (well, I couldn't have eaten anyway). When I left I had to take it all out in order to drive home but could not wear them at all: they are twisting my jaw and create constant pain.
The whole situation was made completely irreversible, and I could not use a single part from my previous temps. I came in to him w/o the jaw pain, managed to keep my jaw in place somehow for over a month. And it's all after telling me that he will go "gradually" and will not do anything irreversible! He couldn't make any improvement after that. That's why I practically have no temps to put on. I tried adjusting the old ones myself but too much has changed. It has to be done really from scratch at this point.
So all I want from him now is to make me an appliance (like NTI, or so) to sleep in.
Oh, today I called KOIS center and asked for their graduates in NJ. There are two in Madison, TL, maybe it's not far from you? If you are interested I'll give you the names. One, lady is in Middletown. I will try to see her for a consult. Those three had the full occlusion training (9 courses). I like the idea of a questionnaire for dentists!!!:D They don't like to have anything in writing though!
I agree that the best way is to alter one side at a time and have it all backed-up.
You are lucky, guys to find dentists with the lab on-site. It's so rare.
TL, when you say, a tmj specialist is this a prosthodontist, orthodontist?? A dentist told me there is no such thing as a tmj specialist.
LTC, yes, be careful with an lvi dentist; they have a lot of trainings on how to organize their business and make a lot of money.
For me too, the TENS unit made things worse. I had it few times already, after the last one had to "undo" the pain for 2 weeks. I think the idea is to make these muscles exhausted and then they relax once it's over. But the muscles can only relax well when the teeth are not on their way or not misleading them somewhere like it is in our cases.
Like you I have very painful spots below and behind the ears as I think from the jaw constantly falling to the back (which I have to fight with in order not to get choking, etc.); I think it's also from low VDO and not having the teeth in place where the jaw wants to bite.
TL, is your pelvis rotates outward, I mean the leg all together? I have this towards the left side when the jaw is shifted to the left and to the right when the jaw is to the right from the normal biting position.
LTC, yes, I am so glad I stopped with the last dentist before even starting and it's for $500! Not so little, but surely better than few thousands $ lost which I had too few times already! I was robbed, as you say, TL, too, quite a few times, pure lies, clear "breach of agreements", obnoxious behavior of dentists, but I have no energy to try getting my money back.
I had a CtScan and a Doppler test for my jaw; it was not too bad, just the disks are worn out, especially one and it showed that my physiological jaw path is exactly as I tell dentists about, but they keep on making the temps which lead the jaw diagonally to its path! I believe it depends on the lower "plane of occlusion". It's like a slope on which one can sledge. The slope determines where the sledges will end up.
BTW, it's not a plane, check it on the sites, it's nice. It will make sense with what you explained about your teeth lengths.
My memory is horrible too. It was good, TL that you mentioned about the Alzheimer hints; now I don't feel bad making notes about everything and started doing it more systematically. And we are only in our 50-is!
I hope this will improve when we get out bites and rest some. Can't believe that we are in the overall states that we are!
LTC, can't wait to know about your lvi dentist and his plan, hopefully w/o the tens. They might understand better about the proper space for the lips and cheeks, and that you should be able to close them!
TL, you will see your dentist this week or next? Maybe he really got challenged now and will make it work?! This would be so great! We need to get out of the ruts!!
Thelma-Louise
01-08-2009, 01:46 AM
Hey Stillhope - from your post it sounds like you indeed got some much needed and deserving rest, finally. But its never quite enough, is it? At least now I am getting surges of energy again - they last maybe a day or 2 - and that has only started recently.
By a tmj specialist I mean a dentist that is fully knowledgeable about all aspects of tmj (muscular and physiological dysfunctions ) and is trained in FJO and a minimum of 35% - to 50% of his patients have tmj - it helps if he is fully trained in restorations, dentures, orthopedics/orthodontia, etc. Sometimes though I can't help but wonder if seeing a tmj dentist rather than other types doesn't muddle things up since they tend to make things more complex they they need to be - however, the dentist that started my problem was a prosthodontist. The dentist who lintitally did my bridges and implants was just a cosmetic dentist so when they needed replacing my then periodontist said "oh no , this time go to my prosthodontist, don't rely on a cosmetic dentist" and look what that got me - plus he charged $5K more than the cosmetic dentist just for bridges alone - the implants were already done. I guess my fear with going to a non-tmj dr is that my facial spasms - which tend to be pretty intense - will scare them off - and they will look at me like I have 10 heads. I need someone who isn't thown by the unusual symptoms and movements my jaw and tongue make - I don't need to be a teaching tool for any one at this point, if you know what I mean, although I don't mean to come across beligerant about it - but I have met many drs who have obviously never dealt with tmj when the neuromuscular system has been affected - and I am tired of the eye popping, jaw dropping reactions from them when they attempt to examine my mouth.
Its interesting you ask about how the hips are rotated and today LTC mentioned her osteo said her arm was twisted - when this first started, my left leg and foot would pull outward toward the left and make a circular motion at the same time my tongue did the same thing around the upper last tooth. Eventually what happened is my skeletal frame shifted with the left shoulder torso and hip further forward than the right - even when just standing - you could see the whole left side was further forward - so walking at best meant a huge waddle or wiggle. I am assuming this resulted with my atlas or C1 also being shifted toward the left as well. Now although I look more straighter I am getting twisting sensations in my hands and feet and sometimes I will just shake my hands as if trying to wring them dry b/c I feel like my bones beneath the skin are twisting - LTC do you ever feel this going on?
Stillhope can you elaborate on what you said below:
"BTW, it's not a plane, check it on the sites, it's nice. It will make sense with what you explained about your teeth lengths."
I have no clue when my splints will be back - I usually just wait for a call form the office - I hope its in another week or so and that he sent them out to the lab before he went on vacation for the holidays since he just came back this past Monday.
Well I am off - let me know how things go tomorrow LTC and Stillhope - try and get some more sleep. PS - the only problem I have now with keeping a list of things I need to do is remembering to even check the list or where I put it. LOL
By a tmj specialist I mean a dentist that is fully knowledgeable about all aspects of tmj (muscular and physiological dysfunctions ) and is trained in FJO and a minimum of 35% - to 50% of his patients have tmj - it helps if he is fully trained in restorations, dentures, orthopedics/orthodontia, etc. Sometimes though I can't help but wonder if seeing a tmj dentist rather than other types doesn't muddle things up since they tend to make things more complex they they need to be - however, the dentist that started my problem was a prosthodontist. The dentist who lintitally did my bridges and implants was just a cosmetic dentist so when they needed replacing my then periodontist said "oh no , this time go to my prosthodontist, don't rely on a cosmetic dentist" and look what that got me - plus he charged $5K more than the cosmetic dentist just for bridges alone - the implants were already done. I guess my fear with going to a non-tmj dr is that my facial spasms - which tend to be pretty intense - will scare them off - and they will look at me like I have 10 heads. I need someone who isn't thown by the unusual symptoms and movements my jaw and tongue make - I don't need to be a teaching tool for any one at this point, if you know what I mean, although I don't mean to come across beligerant about it - but I have met many drs who have obviously never dealt with tmj when the neuromuscular system has been affected - and I am tired of the eye popping, jaw dropping reactions from them when they attempt to examine my mouth.
Its interesting you ask about how the hips are rotated and today LTC mentioned her osteo said her arm was twisted - when this first started, my left leg and foot would pull outward toward the left and make a circular motion at the same time my tongue did the same thing around the upper last tooth. Eventually what happened is my skeletal frame shifted with the left shoulder torso and hip further forward than the right - even when just standing - you could see the whole left side was further forward - so walking at best meant a huge waddle or wiggle. I am assuming this resulted with my atlas or C1 also being shifted toward the left as well. Now although I look more straighter I am getting twisting sensations in my hands and feet and sometimes I will just shake my hands as if trying to wring them dry b/c I feel like my bones beneath the skin are twisting - LTC do you ever feel this going on?
Stillhope can you elaborate on what you said below:
"BTW, it's not a plane, check it on the sites, it's nice. It will make sense with what you explained about your teeth lengths."
I have no clue when my splints will be back - I usually just wait for a call form the office - I hope its in another week or so and that he sent them out to the lab before he went on vacation for the holidays since he just came back this past Monday.
Well I am off - let me know how things go tomorrow LTC and Stillhope - try and get some more sleep. PS - the only problem I have now with keeping a list of things I need to do is remembering to even check the list or where I put it. LOL
luvtocamp
01-08-2009, 10:45 AM
Stillhope- glad your getting rest. I wonder if you have a small airway and your tongue goes way back when you sleep, something like spleep apnea.
a little nervous about my appoint today but
My whole left side of the body is tight:
I got this way a while ago when I felt the left bite was low and the right side was high.
then I got the new dentures and the tightness was down the center of my spine
then he lowered the L. bite per instruction of the osteo and my r. side has been tight since.
so TL- I have been writing this down and this is whats happening, it changes our AO and so that is why our symptoms change. Now you don't have a stable bite so your symptoms seem to affect both sides of your body at different times - right?
whereas I have a bite but uneven and so my symptoms are on one side.
Well I hope this dentist wants to work with me I'll see. I'm not going into a long drawn out past, just more recent stuff and get his opinion about my bite and dentures now. I will let you know how it goes. wish my appoint. was earlier but its at 3:45. I will start a new thread or you can called - Appliance fitting Part 4- as this one is getting long again.
Adding_ I'm thinking of asking him if he'd be willing to put a temp reline in my prior dentures and maybe use the bottom partial as a splint and do adjusting on that. That would save money and see how he can do .
a little nervous about my appoint today but
My whole left side of the body is tight:
I got this way a while ago when I felt the left bite was low and the right side was high.
then I got the new dentures and the tightness was down the center of my spine
then he lowered the L. bite per instruction of the osteo and my r. side has been tight since.
so TL- I have been writing this down and this is whats happening, it changes our AO and so that is why our symptoms change. Now you don't have a stable bite so your symptoms seem to affect both sides of your body at different times - right?
whereas I have a bite but uneven and so my symptoms are on one side.
Well I hope this dentist wants to work with me I'll see. I'm not going into a long drawn out past, just more recent stuff and get his opinion about my bite and dentures now. I will let you know how it goes. wish my appoint. was earlier but its at 3:45. I will start a new thread or you can called - Appliance fitting Part 4- as this one is getting long again.
Adding_ I'm thinking of asking him if he'd be willing to put a temp reline in my prior dentures and maybe use the bottom partial as a splint and do adjusting on that. That would save money and see how he can do .