janewhite1
04-08-2009, 12:03 PM
Feelbad, I'd especially appreciate your wisdom, if you have the time.
I've had problems in my back since I was 18, I'm now 28. I have mentioned it on healthboards before, but I have not posted about it specifically because I've taken it for granted for so long. I apologize for the length, but I want to provide all relevant information.
My symptoms are, briefly:
Aching pain throughout the upper back/shoulders, focused sharply between the shoulder blades. Painful trigger points all around both shoulder blades, especially the right one.
Every time I roll my shoulders, they make crunching noises. It's not a normal joint pop, if I roll them 10 times in a row, they will crunch every time.
When they get especially tight, I get symptoms down my arms. Pain in random places, like the elbow, or the last joint of the middle finger. Sometimes it's all 3 of the first fingers, or all 3 of the last (I'm familiar enough with nerve maps to know why it's 3 fingers at a time.) Sometimes part of my hand goes tingly or numb. Sometimes one hand goes ice-cold and pale, or gets puffy (not swollen as such, just too much fluid). Once in a blue moon it gets so bad I start dropping things unexpectedly.
I also have pain in the small of the back, just on each side of the spine (better since the trigger point injections last month.)
I've had nerve EMG on my arms, x-rays of my hands, neck and lumbar spine, neck MRI, and blood tests to rule out inflammatory arthritis, lyme or autoimmune disease. The only thing they found was that my neck lacks curvature, presumably due to muscle spasms.
I was eventually diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but since then several doctors have said I probably don't have fibro, because my energy levels and moods are pretty good.
In recent years, I've gotten to a point where I simply accept that I don't have answers and I probably never will. I take 20 mg of nortriptyline per day, and I try to stretch a lot and maintain good posture. Sometimes I get massages.
Just recently, I started a new job and began feeling particularly bad, so I went to a physiatrist I'd seen before. She gave me some trigger point injections, helped a lot in the lower back, didn't do much for the shoulders. She also believes that, because I have nerve symptoms affecting my hands, I should look harder for an explanation.
I spent two years looking for answers. It cost money, time, and energy. I saw lots of different doctors, but none of them ever did a darned thing to make me feel any better. They just said basically, "Tests are negative, therefore you are fine, go away now." I was in considerable emotional distress during this time, just barely reaching adulthood and fearing I'd never be able to have a job, live a normal life, or do any of the things I'd dreamed about growing up.
Here's the question: I've found a measure of peace. I modify my life as little as possible to keep things under control, and the rest of the time I hardly think about it. Do I really want to open that can of worms again? But as I was describing things to the new doctor, I began to realize that, no, living with nerve pinches every day is not normal. Falling asleep in pain and waking up in pain at age 28 is unusual. I trust my current dr to accept that my pain is real regardless of what the tests show, but would it be worth the trouble to investigate all over again?
I've had problems in my back since I was 18, I'm now 28. I have mentioned it on healthboards before, but I have not posted about it specifically because I've taken it for granted for so long. I apologize for the length, but I want to provide all relevant information.
My symptoms are, briefly:
Aching pain throughout the upper back/shoulders, focused sharply between the shoulder blades. Painful trigger points all around both shoulder blades, especially the right one.
Every time I roll my shoulders, they make crunching noises. It's not a normal joint pop, if I roll them 10 times in a row, they will crunch every time.
When they get especially tight, I get symptoms down my arms. Pain in random places, like the elbow, or the last joint of the middle finger. Sometimes it's all 3 of the first fingers, or all 3 of the last (I'm familiar enough with nerve maps to know why it's 3 fingers at a time.) Sometimes part of my hand goes tingly or numb. Sometimes one hand goes ice-cold and pale, or gets puffy (not swollen as such, just too much fluid). Once in a blue moon it gets so bad I start dropping things unexpectedly.
I also have pain in the small of the back, just on each side of the spine (better since the trigger point injections last month.)
I've had nerve EMG on my arms, x-rays of my hands, neck and lumbar spine, neck MRI, and blood tests to rule out inflammatory arthritis, lyme or autoimmune disease. The only thing they found was that my neck lacks curvature, presumably due to muscle spasms.
I was eventually diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but since then several doctors have said I probably don't have fibro, because my energy levels and moods are pretty good.
In recent years, I've gotten to a point where I simply accept that I don't have answers and I probably never will. I take 20 mg of nortriptyline per day, and I try to stretch a lot and maintain good posture. Sometimes I get massages.
Just recently, I started a new job and began feeling particularly bad, so I went to a physiatrist I'd seen before. She gave me some trigger point injections, helped a lot in the lower back, didn't do much for the shoulders. She also believes that, because I have nerve symptoms affecting my hands, I should look harder for an explanation.
I spent two years looking for answers. It cost money, time, and energy. I saw lots of different doctors, but none of them ever did a darned thing to make me feel any better. They just said basically, "Tests are negative, therefore you are fine, go away now." I was in considerable emotional distress during this time, just barely reaching adulthood and fearing I'd never be able to have a job, live a normal life, or do any of the things I'd dreamed about growing up.
Here's the question: I've found a measure of peace. I modify my life as little as possible to keep things under control, and the rest of the time I hardly think about it. Do I really want to open that can of worms again? But as I was describing things to the new doctor, I began to realize that, no, living with nerve pinches every day is not normal. Falling asleep in pain and waking up in pain at age 28 is unusual. I trust my current dr to accept that my pain is real regardless of what the tests show, but would it be worth the trouble to investigate all over again?
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jennybyc
04-08-2009, 05:05 PM
Has anyone bothered to MRI your shoulders? OA in the acromio-clavicular joints where the clavicle meets the scapula is very common and causes just about everything you listed. You develop osteophytes that press on the huge subacromial bursa and that then impinges on the rotator cuff tendons and nerves. That along with a loss of lordosis in your neck(not normal for your age) it could be causing a lot of nerve impingement. There are also various impingement disorders affecting the cervical spine and shoulder muscles.
If you haven't seen a rheumatologist, try to. They are the medical side of orthopedics and more likely to stay with you until you have an answer. If you have and have been turned away, see another. Bad docs come in all forms.
I've had 2 major cervical spine surgeries and am probably facing a third and had both shoulders operated on for AC joint impingement. They simply remove the end of the clavicle and "presto".....pain is gone. The bursitis clears up, the tendons can function and the associated tendinitis disappears and the inflammed nerves calm down. And someone needs to monitor your neck!
good luck and gentle hugs..........Jenny
If you haven't seen a rheumatologist, try to. They are the medical side of orthopedics and more likely to stay with you until you have an answer. If you have and have been turned away, see another. Bad docs come in all forms.
I've had 2 major cervical spine surgeries and am probably facing a third and had both shoulders operated on for AC joint impingement. They simply remove the end of the clavicle and "presto".....pain is gone. The bursitis clears up, the tendons can function and the associated tendinitis disappears and the inflammed nerves calm down. And someone needs to monitor your neck!
good luck and gentle hugs..........Jenny
janewhite1
04-08-2009, 05:54 PM
Thanks for your reply, jennybyc.
Actually, no, no one has really looked closely at the shoulders. (either scans or physical exam) It might be worth thinking about. I suspect the nerve impingement is at the thoracic outlet, but I don't know for sure. It could be occuring in more than one spot, also.
I have seen two rheumatologists. One was a complete waste of sheepskin who diagnosed me with fibromyalgia, then did not give me any useful information nor offer or recommend any treatments other than Celebrex. Which I turned out to be allergic to. Which he then tried to prescribe a second time. The other said "I don't treat fibromyalgia, byebye, but pay for the visit anyway."
I'm a bit soured on rheumatologists at this point. Then again, I was soured on surgeons till I found that brillant young fellow who diagnosed my ankle in 5 minutes and repaired it gorgeously.
I've now had a chance to look up some of the problems you mentioned. I don't have much pain at the front of the shoulder, so I don't think that's it. Still, thanks for the info!
Actually, no, no one has really looked closely at the shoulders. (either scans or physical exam) It might be worth thinking about. I suspect the nerve impingement is at the thoracic outlet, but I don't know for sure. It could be occuring in more than one spot, also.
I have seen two rheumatologists. One was a complete waste of sheepskin who diagnosed me with fibromyalgia, then did not give me any useful information nor offer or recommend any treatments other than Celebrex. Which I turned out to be allergic to. Which he then tried to prescribe a second time. The other said "I don't treat fibromyalgia, byebye, but pay for the visit anyway."
I'm a bit soured on rheumatologists at this point. Then again, I was soured on surgeons till I found that brillant young fellow who diagnosed my ankle in 5 minutes and repaired it gorgeously.
I've now had a chance to look up some of the problems you mentioned. I don't have much pain at the front of the shoulder, so I don't think that's it. Still, thanks for the info!
feelbad
04-09-2009, 10:19 AM
i would have to agree just going thru my own rotator cuff hell in my shoulders that it would be something to really nahve much further evaluated. some of what you described "could' have to do with impingment within those shoulders too. i have had this repeated issue myself,but i also know my c spine is kind of falling apart and IS most definitely firing out angry signals withhin those shoulders too. this is what my amazing myofascial release guy told me. it just keeps regenerating itself all the time.
what i am wondering is two things really. how long ago was that c spine MRI and do you, yourself actually have a copy of that rad report? unbelievably,when any 'specialist" is giving us results, in MANY cases either the do not actually tell us everything that was even found in our own reports or they don't happen to "feel" any real prominence in a particular finding only because they don't understand that it IS a significant finding,you know what i mean? there are some NSs out there and other spoine specialists who,only because they hve never or had very little experience in any given issue, just do not give it the gravity it deserves sometimes.
i went thru this myself with my cavernoma. three seperate opinions and only the very last one who was the head of NS at the U of MN actually had had enough overall experiencve and knowledge in dealing with these in a spinal cord that i found out finally just what this thing was going to cause and that it needed to come out efore it bled again. my other two NSs never even mentioned that this had actually even bled??
if there are ANY hard findings in that summary at the very end, they do need to be a bit mote closely looked at. one other thing you also need to keep in mind here is that an MRI or any other type of actual scan will always show everything that could even be going on in there either. its just the overall way any "scan' is. it is NOT an actual picture. and from what i have learned over all my 16 MRIs and just reading other peoples stories here, not even the true overall severity of a finding will always show either. my own personal opinion on actual MRIs is that they will only give at best a "rough" idea of possible findings and not at all the true picture of what 'could' actually be there,ya know what i mean?
any scan is also only as good as the tech who is doing it,the rad ho reads the films and the specialist who gives their 'second' opinon on the films too. it all comes down to overall experience and knowledge of everyone involved. and of course, any and all of your actual ongoing symptoms too. in some cases, its a matter of just trying to track back the symptoms to that underlying source that is generating them.
you DO have 'something' there in that upper that is 'feeding' the symptoms you are displaying right now and have been. that is for certain. with the right doc,and testing and depending upon any findings in that MRI and just HOW old that is, will help in getting to the source.
just wondering if you have ever actually tried the myofascial release therepy for this? it does amazing things for all my muscle mess i have up there. just a suggestion for you if you have never gone there? but i would get those shoulders checked. the rotator tendon i tore was called the supraspinatus,it actually runs along the very top from the base of the neck to the top shoulder area. this is the MOST common tendon that people tend to tear. mine eventually snapped on me and i did not have a clue my shoulders were that bad til my MRI just showed all my real damage. i just had assumed alot of my crap was "just" my bigger c spine mess and it was not all. i do really think you just need to dive into this and get some things going towards a real dx of all of whats feeding your muscle hell. thanks for asking for me jane, it means alot. there are also many many good experienced knowledgable people here too who are wonderful. good luck hon. marcia
what i am wondering is two things really. how long ago was that c spine MRI and do you, yourself actually have a copy of that rad report? unbelievably,when any 'specialist" is giving us results, in MANY cases either the do not actually tell us everything that was even found in our own reports or they don't happen to "feel" any real prominence in a particular finding only because they don't understand that it IS a significant finding,you know what i mean? there are some NSs out there and other spoine specialists who,only because they hve never or had very little experience in any given issue, just do not give it the gravity it deserves sometimes.
i went thru this myself with my cavernoma. three seperate opinions and only the very last one who was the head of NS at the U of MN actually had had enough overall experiencve and knowledge in dealing with these in a spinal cord that i found out finally just what this thing was going to cause and that it needed to come out efore it bled again. my other two NSs never even mentioned that this had actually even bled??
if there are ANY hard findings in that summary at the very end, they do need to be a bit mote closely looked at. one other thing you also need to keep in mind here is that an MRI or any other type of actual scan will always show everything that could even be going on in there either. its just the overall way any "scan' is. it is NOT an actual picture. and from what i have learned over all my 16 MRIs and just reading other peoples stories here, not even the true overall severity of a finding will always show either. my own personal opinion on actual MRIs is that they will only give at best a "rough" idea of possible findings and not at all the true picture of what 'could' actually be there,ya know what i mean?
any scan is also only as good as the tech who is doing it,the rad ho reads the films and the specialist who gives their 'second' opinon on the films too. it all comes down to overall experience and knowledge of everyone involved. and of course, any and all of your actual ongoing symptoms too. in some cases, its a matter of just trying to track back the symptoms to that underlying source that is generating them.
you DO have 'something' there in that upper that is 'feeding' the symptoms you are displaying right now and have been. that is for certain. with the right doc,and testing and depending upon any findings in that MRI and just HOW old that is, will help in getting to the source.
just wondering if you have ever actually tried the myofascial release therepy for this? it does amazing things for all my muscle mess i have up there. just a suggestion for you if you have never gone there? but i would get those shoulders checked. the rotator tendon i tore was called the supraspinatus,it actually runs along the very top from the base of the neck to the top shoulder area. this is the MOST common tendon that people tend to tear. mine eventually snapped on me and i did not have a clue my shoulders were that bad til my MRI just showed all my real damage. i just had assumed alot of my crap was "just" my bigger c spine mess and it was not all. i do really think you just need to dive into this and get some things going towards a real dx of all of whats feeding your muscle hell. thanks for asking for me jane, it means alot. there are also many many good experienced knowledgable people here too who are wonderful. good luck hon. marcia
janewhite1
04-09-2009, 11:33 AM
Oh, yes, I am well aware of the pitfalls and uncertainties of MRI interpretation, that was something I encountered personally in the Ankle War (apparently feet are particularly hard to image, too many tiny but vital parts).
All of the tests related to this are at least 8 years old at this point, so I suppose newer tests might be necessary. I have seen the original reports at least, so I know there wasn't anything exciting there.
I have had myofascial release, and I learned a lot about my body there. I can self-release most of the trigger points around my right shoulder blade, too, but literally 3 minutes later they are all back in. My other trigger points elsewhere in my body tend to stay released for at least a few hours. Hence, I give credence to your theory that something is feeding them.
It's a little ironic, when I first saw this doctor, for my ankle, she was saying stuff like, "pt, exercise, pain control, maybe a nerve problem but there's no ligament damage," and I was saying, "No, there is something really wrong right in this spot here, figure out what it is." Now, it's the other way around, I'm the one saying, "There's no explanation, I just want it to hurt less," and she's saying "We should investigate more."
All of the tests related to this are at least 8 years old at this point, so I suppose newer tests might be necessary. I have seen the original reports at least, so I know there wasn't anything exciting there.
I have had myofascial release, and I learned a lot about my body there. I can self-release most of the trigger points around my right shoulder blade, too, but literally 3 minutes later they are all back in. My other trigger points elsewhere in my body tend to stay released for at least a few hours. Hence, I give credence to your theory that something is feeding them.
It's a little ironic, when I first saw this doctor, for my ankle, she was saying stuff like, "pt, exercise, pain control, maybe a nerve problem but there's no ligament damage," and I was saying, "No, there is something really wrong right in this spot here, figure out what it is." Now, it's the other way around, I'm the one saying, "There's no explanation, I just want it to hurt less," and she's saying "We should investigate more."
jennybyc
04-09-2009, 02:53 PM
Jane, the pain I'm talking about from the AC joint is right on top of the shoulder where a bra strap might come across, not in the front. But once it impinges on the bursa and tendons the pain can go anywhere. And there is Thoracic Outlet Syndrome to consider. But if you haven't had a cervical spine MRI in years, time for a new one. Your symptoms could also be what I had...cervical spondylosis or a whole host of other things. Necks can go bad quickly and quietly.
I had both shoulders done and was still left with some pain...that's when I started to suspect my neck as the source. One shovel too many of wet snow proved my instincts correct!
gentle hugs...............Jenny
I had both shoulders done and was still left with some pain...that's when I started to suspect my neck as the source. One shovel too many of wet snow proved my instincts correct!
gentle hugs...............Jenny
feelbad
04-10-2009, 12:12 PM
i definitely agree with jenny, you simply DO NEED an updated MRI jane. even as little as six months can create some changes in our spinal areas, so just imagine eight years? if you could get your doc to actually just 'do' that c spine, which also catches at least the very top three or four T spine segments too,along with possibly getting those shoulders MRIed at the very same time,THAT would really help tons in trying to narrow down the contributing factors with what you are dealing with here. this would pretty much 'cover" all areas that may be also giving out different symptoms that are totally unrelated to each other too,you know what i mean?
i used to just kind of 'dump" ALL my upper crap to my c spine, and muscle damage from my cord surgery when i still knew i had some type of real damage i had done many years ago to my R shoulder as well. it just never really "connected" in my little brain that this could be seperate issues all creating their own little forms of hell for me. but there is also a very real connection from c spine to shoulder/rotator too(personally, both my c 8s(ulnar) keep getting impinged right behind the armpit area that my myo guy keeps having to release. c spine crap), so this is where getting those areas all checked REALLY would be ideal. if any of your docs could just refer you out for the three seperate areas,with a contrasting agent just to help, that would help YOU in the very best way. this simply would give you and your docs ALL the needed info to really find out what is/are the reasons for this to be regenerating itself and even producing your symptoms at all. this would just cover ALL bases up there. hopefully someone will see the need to just 'do" this for you jane. good luck and please keep us posted,marcia
i used to just kind of 'dump" ALL my upper crap to my c spine, and muscle damage from my cord surgery when i still knew i had some type of real damage i had done many years ago to my R shoulder as well. it just never really "connected" in my little brain that this could be seperate issues all creating their own little forms of hell for me. but there is also a very real connection from c spine to shoulder/rotator too(personally, both my c 8s(ulnar) keep getting impinged right behind the armpit area that my myo guy keeps having to release. c spine crap), so this is where getting those areas all checked REALLY would be ideal. if any of your docs could just refer you out for the three seperate areas,with a contrasting agent just to help, that would help YOU in the very best way. this simply would give you and your docs ALL the needed info to really find out what is/are the reasons for this to be regenerating itself and even producing your symptoms at all. this would just cover ALL bases up there. hopefully someone will see the need to just 'do" this for you jane. good luck and please keep us posted,marcia
janewhite1
04-11-2009, 10:20 PM
I think I will pursue a new round of testing, at least as much as my current doc thinks is appropriate.
I trust her not to force me to choose between pursuing a diagnosis and getting treatment, and I trust her not to discount my pain if the tests turn up nothing.
One last weird symptom: When my upper back area gets particularly sore, and especially when I start having neuro symptoms in my hand, my shoulder curls inward in the front in a very weird way.
There's the outer tip of the shoulder, and about 2 inches in from there, it bends when you bring your arm across your chest. My shoulder curves in about 1 inch from the tip, and trying to roll it back or move it doesn't help. I look a bit like a book with a bent corner on the cover.
I trust her not to force me to choose between pursuing a diagnosis and getting treatment, and I trust her not to discount my pain if the tests turn up nothing.
One last weird symptom: When my upper back area gets particularly sore, and especially when I start having neuro symptoms in my hand, my shoulder curls inward in the front in a very weird way.
There's the outer tip of the shoulder, and about 2 inches in from there, it bends when you bring your arm across your chest. My shoulder curves in about 1 inch from the tip, and trying to roll it back or move it doesn't help. I look a bit like a book with a bent corner on the cover.
sammyo1
04-12-2009, 08:43 AM
Thought I would chime in here. As I went through test after test for a couple yrs. Had a C & T MRI at first & the findings were not enough to point to the cervical. Ended up finding bursitis, tendonitis, arthritis in my left shoulder, so had decompression done & some other minor things. Still had alot of pain after that surgery. Shoulders, arms, fingers, upper back, headaches & so on...
Finally after getting into PM my doctor decided he wanted another MRI of the C&T & he sent me to a surgeon. His hopes were if not enough showed in the MRI that the surgeon would order a discogram or another test. As the PM was convinced it was spinal. The new MRI did show what the old one thought was minor was no longer minor. I dont trust MRIs as when the surgeon went in to fuse the C5-6 the 4 & 7 were not doing so hot, especially the 7 & it did not show on the MRI.
I did have shoulder & cervical surgery. I know the shoulder had some issues but I truely believe alot was the cervical. So I would also recommend "opening that can of worms" back up. I know its frustrating as I had doctors look at me like it was in my head. Because of the time it was left I face some permanant damage & am really angry at the doctors who relied on that MRI instead of looking further.
It sure sounds to me like you have something wrong in there. As my first three fingers hurt preop, now its the last 3 on the right & the entire left hand.
I think sometimes to doctors dont consider there can be multiple problems. My upper back can get real sore at times & usually the shoulder joins in as does the rest. I know the C7 is probably acting up in there. I
I hate to hear of people suffering & your story is very much like my own. Jenny has a point the cervical can change very quickly. You are really in need of some new tests. I am going to bet by your symptoms they will find something there. Good luck & god bless, Sammy
Finally after getting into PM my doctor decided he wanted another MRI of the C&T & he sent me to a surgeon. His hopes were if not enough showed in the MRI that the surgeon would order a discogram or another test. As the PM was convinced it was spinal. The new MRI did show what the old one thought was minor was no longer minor. I dont trust MRIs as when the surgeon went in to fuse the C5-6 the 4 & 7 were not doing so hot, especially the 7 & it did not show on the MRI.
I did have shoulder & cervical surgery. I know the shoulder had some issues but I truely believe alot was the cervical. So I would also recommend "opening that can of worms" back up. I know its frustrating as I had doctors look at me like it was in my head. Because of the time it was left I face some permanant damage & am really angry at the doctors who relied on that MRI instead of looking further.
It sure sounds to me like you have something wrong in there. As my first three fingers hurt preop, now its the last 3 on the right & the entire left hand.
I think sometimes to doctors dont consider there can be multiple problems. My upper back can get real sore at times & usually the shoulder joins in as does the rest. I know the C7 is probably acting up in there. I
I hate to hear of people suffering & your story is very much like my own. Jenny has a point the cervical can change very quickly. You are really in need of some new tests. I am going to bet by your symptoms they will find something there. Good luck & god bless, Sammy
feelbad
04-13-2009, 12:52 PM
does this actually feel like some type of a "spasm" when this occurs, like it in being somewhat 'forced" by the muscles into this posistion? just exactly what occurs in your hands when this occurs or before that area up there curls in? anything that occurs 'just" in certain fingers? i am pretty certain i know exactly what area you are talking about up in the shoulder. i actually have somewhat of a long indent right in that same 'fold" area? i do not have this on the opposite side,only the one that had the worst rotator problems/surgery.
could you describe an actual episode of this, mostly the hand thing?any feelings or sensations that run from that upper thru your arm down to the hand? do your fingers actually spasm too? is this only on the one side? sorry for all the questions but knowing just exactly how this presents combined with what you actually feel will help alot in possibly narrowing down involved areas. Marcia
could you describe an actual episode of this, mostly the hand thing?any feelings or sensations that run from that upper thru your arm down to the hand? do your fingers actually spasm too? is this only on the one side? sorry for all the questions but knowing just exactly how this presents combined with what you actually feel will help alot in possibly narrowing down involved areas. Marcia
janewhite1
04-13-2009, 04:38 PM
As it happens, I can describe an episode. Been having one for a few days on the right side.
The symptoms vary a bit, though. Earlier I had pain in the distal part of my middle finger, now my hand feels okay, but if I lie on my back and spread my arms, the circulation to my hand gets cut off, it feels strange and becomes ice-cold to the touch. I've also got a nasty pain all along the right side of the spine, especially near the shoulder blade, and at the back of the right armpit.
The symptoms vary a bit, though. Earlier I had pain in the distal part of my middle finger, now my hand feels okay, but if I lie on my back and spread my arms, the circulation to my hand gets cut off, it feels strange and becomes ice-cold to the touch. I've also got a nasty pain all along the right side of the spine, especially near the shoulder blade, and at the back of the right armpit.
feelbad
04-14-2009, 12:28 PM
thanks jane,that does kind of help here. the middle finger IS innervted by that median nerve, but you only have the 'tip' involved? are you having ANY issues at all in the last two fingers on that same hand? and i mean anything at all? the thing is, the area directly behind the armpit is exactly where that c 8(ulnar)runs before it goes down the arm. like i mentioned before, my ulnars keep getting impinged in that same exact area,thats the only reason i know that the ulnar runs up there.
the bigger problem here is what you described could possibly be a strictly spinal problem or strictly shoulder problem or a combo of both actually. its all in the way those nerves run from that spine on down thru our shoulders and into the hands, ANYTHING along that path just could be part of the problem. getting the shoulders, or at least that one that is MOST involved right along with at least the c spine loked at really would help narrow down the true areas of affectation here.
there are just so many different areas that are there where the nerves/vessels run ya know? one thing here tho, what you described with that coldness when you spread your arms out,it really sounds more like vascular than nerve involvement. there could just be an area that gets impinged within that shoulder when you move into that particular posistion. blood vessels just run thru all those areas too. but it does sound like a more classic impingement of vessel to me there. it is just finding out what is there that maybe should not be or how your particular vascular structures really run. the thing is,not everyones vascular or nerve areas will always be "dead on' to another persons. its just the nature of how individual are bodies really are. not everyones anatomy will always be the very same. this is also true with the dermatomes, the skin surface areas that a particular nerve innervates? there can be some crossover too from one spinal nerve area dermatome with like say the c 8 running partially into the T 1 area derm? we are just very very highly unique people in almost every way.
my honestly best advice jane is just really getting the R shoulder/rotator area fully scanned and of course that very important c spine too. those two areas would just be the most highly likely ones involved in what you have mentioned as symptoms here. if i were you, i would sit down with my doc and really see about getting this done. like i mentioned before, they could both be done at the very same time and this would give the very best possible look into the areas of possible affectation for you. it would all be there to go over and figure out just what is stemming from what,ya know? it would also be the very quickest way to just find out what the heck is going on in you too. this is just what i would do if i were in your current situation jane. see what your doc will do for you. good luck and as usual, keep us posted. Marcia
the bigger problem here is what you described could possibly be a strictly spinal problem or strictly shoulder problem or a combo of both actually. its all in the way those nerves run from that spine on down thru our shoulders and into the hands, ANYTHING along that path just could be part of the problem. getting the shoulders, or at least that one that is MOST involved right along with at least the c spine loked at really would help narrow down the true areas of affectation here.
there are just so many different areas that are there where the nerves/vessels run ya know? one thing here tho, what you described with that coldness when you spread your arms out,it really sounds more like vascular than nerve involvement. there could just be an area that gets impinged within that shoulder when you move into that particular posistion. blood vessels just run thru all those areas too. but it does sound like a more classic impingement of vessel to me there. it is just finding out what is there that maybe should not be or how your particular vascular structures really run. the thing is,not everyones vascular or nerve areas will always be "dead on' to another persons. its just the nature of how individual are bodies really are. not everyones anatomy will always be the very same. this is also true with the dermatomes, the skin surface areas that a particular nerve innervates? there can be some crossover too from one spinal nerve area dermatome with like say the c 8 running partially into the T 1 area derm? we are just very very highly unique people in almost every way.
my honestly best advice jane is just really getting the R shoulder/rotator area fully scanned and of course that very important c spine too. those two areas would just be the most highly likely ones involved in what you have mentioned as symptoms here. if i were you, i would sit down with my doc and really see about getting this done. like i mentioned before, they could both be done at the very same time and this would give the very best possible look into the areas of possible affectation for you. it would all be there to go over and figure out just what is stemming from what,ya know? it would also be the very quickest way to just find out what the heck is going on in you too. this is just what i would do if i were in your current situation jane. see what your doc will do for you. good luck and as usual, keep us posted. Marcia
janewhite1
04-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Thanks again. I'm going to the doctor Thursday, we'll see what happens.
The nerve pain moves around, in my hand. Sometimes it's both of the last two and part of the hand as well, sometimes it's the first three together, but the distal half of the middle finger is the most common spot. (Not just the tip, exactly. Oh, right now it's the knuckle?!)
Emotionally, it is hard to think about this. It's distressing, to pin down what parts of me hurt and when, because I learned not to notice. Sure, I stretch when I need stretching, and do other things when the pain level gets beyond what I can ignore. But I don't think about it much, and I talk even less. My husband didn't know most of it until after we were married, not because I was deliberately hiding anything from him, just because I don't talk about it. My co workers at my present job and my last job know nothing.
The nerve pain moves around, in my hand. Sometimes it's both of the last two and part of the hand as well, sometimes it's the first three together, but the distal half of the middle finger is the most common spot. (Not just the tip, exactly. Oh, right now it's the knuckle?!)
Emotionally, it is hard to think about this. It's distressing, to pin down what parts of me hurt and when, because I learned not to notice. Sure, I stretch when I need stretching, and do other things when the pain level gets beyond what I can ignore. But I don't think about it much, and I talk even less. My husband didn't know most of it until after we were married, not because I was deliberately hiding anything from him, just because I don't talk about it. My co workers at my present job and my last job know nothing.
feelbad
04-15-2009, 01:15 PM
i have seen many many of your posts over a good period of time,and i think i do have a handle on how your brain works to the degree of just wanting to keep things more to yourself kind of thing? little things that you post just kind of clue into certain tendencies in poeple ya know what i mean? i am kind of the same way. i help more than i ask about 'me" things?
i am glad you are seeing your doc jane. this will just get that dx ball rolling for you. just getting those two areas scanned, like i mentioned before, i know,lol, will really really show where your possible areas where involvment actually are. it would be the 'perfect" set of tests given your ongoing symptoms ya know? and i DO think your ulnar IS being at least intermittantly impinged based on those last two fingers EVEN being involved in all this too. its just finding out those areas where things are going on that will dictate Dx and how this should all be dealt with too. like i mentioned to someone else on the b boards, myofascial release would also be a huge help to you too hon. this IS the ONLY therepy that has even begun to help with all my ongoing c spine muscle mess i have, and unimpinging my ulnars that just keep impinging from my c spine mess too. just a thought for you jane,after you get the Dx and see whats up. i wish you luck with the appt jane. i would push like heck to just get that done right now since it would give the BEST info for you and your doc right now. please keep me posted jane. marcia
i am glad you are seeing your doc jane. this will just get that dx ball rolling for you. just getting those two areas scanned, like i mentioned before, i know,lol, will really really show where your possible areas where involvment actually are. it would be the 'perfect" set of tests given your ongoing symptoms ya know? and i DO think your ulnar IS being at least intermittantly impinged based on those last two fingers EVEN being involved in all this too. its just finding out those areas where things are going on that will dictate Dx and how this should all be dealt with too. like i mentioned to someone else on the b boards, myofascial release would also be a huge help to you too hon. this IS the ONLY therepy that has even begun to help with all my ongoing c spine muscle mess i have, and unimpinging my ulnars that just keep impinging from my c spine mess too. just a thought for you jane,after you get the Dx and see whats up. i wish you luck with the appt jane. i would push like heck to just get that done right now since it would give the BEST info for you and your doc right now. please keep me posted jane. marcia
janewhite1
04-16-2009, 03:11 PM
Okay, saw the doctor today. We're going to start with an EMG and go from there. She did mention that she saw no evidence of an abnormality in my shoulder, though--and I actually trust the opinion of a smart doctor way more than that of a stupid machine.
Besides, the pain isn't tied to any particular position or motion, which is also evidence against a true joint problem.
Also, we've been doing trigger point injections, one area of the body each time. The lower back ones worked amazingly, the upper back ones felt like they were working, but didn't really improve how I was feeling, and today we did the neck.
The lidocaine hit a spinal nerve.
Proof that I am indeed pretty crazy: I found this hilarious. "Oh, my ear is totally numb, and half my neck and my upper shoulder. I can't even raise my arm all the way." And I was giggling. I wasn't frightened by it at all, I knew exactly what had happened and was sure I'd be fine in a few hours, and of course I was.
I like coming here and helping people. There's a lot of folks with problems which I can't fix, but there are plenty whose lives would be improved at least a little with some accurate information or objective thoughts.
Besides, the pain isn't tied to any particular position or motion, which is also evidence against a true joint problem.
Also, we've been doing trigger point injections, one area of the body each time. The lower back ones worked amazingly, the upper back ones felt like they were working, but didn't really improve how I was feeling, and today we did the neck.
The lidocaine hit a spinal nerve.
Proof that I am indeed pretty crazy: I found this hilarious. "Oh, my ear is totally numb, and half my neck and my upper shoulder. I can't even raise my arm all the way." And I was giggling. I wasn't frightened by it at all, I knew exactly what had happened and was sure I'd be fine in a few hours, and of course I was.
I like coming here and helping people. There's a lot of folks with problems which I can't fix, but there are plenty whose lives would be improved at least a little with some accurate information or objective thoughts.
janewhite1
04-20-2009, 12:28 AM
I have a curve in my c-spine! This is amazing, I can feel with my hand that the spine curves. Most of my neck is soft to the touch. Even the spine feels softer, if that makes any sense.
Okay, so the trigger point injections worked insanely well in the neck, and in the paraspinals near L2-L3. The ones in the upper back shoulder area did nothing.
Two out of three ain't bad.
Okay, so the trigger point injections worked insanely well in the neck, and in the paraspinals near L2-L3. The ones in the upper back shoulder area did nothing.
Two out of three ain't bad.
janewhite1
04-23-2009, 10:44 AM
I've heard this mentioned before. My neck seems to hurt a lot more now that the spasms are at least temporarily broken, than it did when it just stayed locked up tight for years.
Or, maybe I'm just noticing the pain again. Maybe I should try to get back to not caring if it hurt. I liked not caring.
Didn't take any more Tramadol, the stuff took about 36 hours to wear off.
Having a bad time all around, I guess. Work is crazy, I'm exhausted and I've been alternating between tired and exhausted for weeks...
Today is a slightly easier day, though, don't have to go in until the afternoon.
Or, maybe I'm just noticing the pain again. Maybe I should try to get back to not caring if it hurt. I liked not caring.
Didn't take any more Tramadol, the stuff took about 36 hours to wear off.
Having a bad time all around, I guess. Work is crazy, I'm exhausted and I've been alternating between tired and exhausted for weeks...
Today is a slightly easier day, though, don't have to go in until the afternoon.
janewhite1
05-01-2009, 01:56 PM
Yeah, so, no progress on the spinal issues. The foot decided to swell up again, and now I have to concentrate all my energy on that, and I'm not even able to get around well enough to get to appointments for my other condition. And limping is going to mess up the muscles in my hips, again.
Carrying water uphill in a sieve, I tell you.
Carrying water uphill in a sieve, I tell you.