What kind of exercises can you do outside of the gym to increase muscle mass in the pecs? I do push ups, but is there a special way to do them or are there other exercises too?

Are there any kind of foods that should be eaten too to help with muscle mass gain?

Is it true that if your muscles hurt after a work out, that's a good thing?

[This message has been edited by misanthrope (edited 09-05-2003).]

Originally posted by misanthrope:
What kind of exercises can you do outside of the gym to increase muscle mass in the pecs? I do push ups, but is there a special way to do them or are there other exercises too?

Push ups are good, but the best way to develop them is with weight lifting. Specifically, bench presses, butterflies, and straight arm pull overs are the best. If you don't want to go to the gym, you can buy a basic weight bench, and a free weight set for not a lot of money. You could probably find both for under $100 if you shop around.

Swimming is good exercise for the pecs too, but again, you'll be toning them more than increasing their size.

If you find you're limited to doing only pushups, try doing them with your hands close together instead of spread out - this will make them harder to do. Also increase the number of sets you do - the more your do, the longer your pec muscles will be under strain, and the more muscle you will build.

Are there any kind of foods that should be eaten too to help with muscle mass gain?

Oh yes, what you eat is very important to muscle mass gain. Foods high in protien and low in fat is what you want. Fish for example, chicken, turkey, ham, lean sirloin steak, lean pork chops, etc.

Is it true that if your muscles hurt after a work out, that's a good thing?

Yes, in general. If your muscles are sore after a work out, it means part of the muscle has been broken down from the work out, and the body is rebuilding the muscle with new fibers. When it rebuilds the muscle with new fibers, it rebuilds it larger than it was before. That's how you increase muscle mass.

Don't over-do it though!

There are web sites out there that give you free weight training programs, and nutritional guidance. Some of them even have training programs to do around the house without any equipment. A good one is freetrainers dot com. (put the words all together - I think they frown upon links here, so I spelled it out for you). In the event it gets deleted, e-mail me and I'll send you the link.

Hey focus, thanks so much for all the info!! I was doing the push ups with my hands stretched far apart too.

Hmm, I guess now would not be a good time to become a vegetarian then...

i agree with focus about all of the gym excercises, but as far as push ups go, when your arms are farther apart that is isolating the pec muscles. when they are close together that works your triceps more

Hey Misanthrope

I know you were just joking, but I couldn't let this one ride...

I'm a vegetarian and (as it happens)I'm also very built & muscular. I don't eat any meat of any kind --- and haven't since 1986. I haven't had any trouble building muscle. The key is you have to get enough PROTEIN --- not necessarily ANIMAL PROTEIN --- VEGETABLE PROTEIN works, too.

Just sticking up for my vegetarian homies! LOL

Hey jamie, what kind of protein do you eat?? I'm thinking of becoming vegetarian. Can you help me out?

Hey Misanthrope

... So, how do you feel about tofu? http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wink.gif

I mean, I can eat tofu cold right out of the package, but most people would think that's pretty gross.

Seriously, my main source of protein is soy --- tofu, soybeans, tempeh, etc., which sometimes requires a bit of planning and preparation in order to keep a little variety in your diet. Secondary sources of protein include vegetable-based proteins such as wheat glutens, nuts, beans, etc. Also, I am lacto-ovo, which sounds like I'm pregnant --- LOL --- but actually means that I eat dairy and egg products. So I eat egg (white)s and skim milk for protein, as well. All of this does require educating yourself and putting a bit more effort into your meals than meat-eaters --- you can't just pull up to a Burger King and order something whenever it is convenient, and just try eating healthy and vege on a long road trip --- there is NO such thing as healthy food at rest stops across America. But it is not always so hard: you can get fake "meat" products such as veggie burgers, soy dogs (or "tofu pups") faux ground beef and fake chicken and turkey and baloney slices (just like the lunchmeats they replace, except made out of soy)and these help to make lunches quick & easy. There are also soy meatballs, soy Canadian bacon, soy sausage, imitation shrimp, fish made out of taro root and wheat gluten... the list goes on & on. Often these products are nutrtionally superior to their meat cousins. And all this stuff is easily found in either the frozen foods section or in a refrigerated prepared foods section (or sometimes even in a special vegetarian section) of your local grocery store --- I rarely have trouble finding this stuff anymore --- not like 10 years ago. The point is not really to imitate meat --- a carnivore might understandably ask why a vegeatrian wants to eat "chicken", even if it is made of soy --- the point is just to make your life, and food preparation, as easy and varied as it is for carnivores. The fact is that most of us grow up meat eaters, and we're used to eating dishes prepared a certain way. Sometimes it is just easier to buy a faux meat version of something, and then prepare it the way you are used to preparing the meat version, then to have to come up with a new and creative way to cook tofu. Kudos to you, though, if you are up to discovering new ways to cook tofu. Of course, if you don't like the taste of any of this stuff --- although much of it tastes very, very close to the real thing --- then you are going to have a much harder row to hoe. If you are going to work out alot, you will probably also need to supplement with a protein shake --- one of those powders that you mix with water or milk and drink for extra, quick protein throughout your day. You wouldn't normally need to do this, except if you are going to be working out hard your protein needs are going to be greater and it is often difficult to be constantly eating enough to get all that protein, whether you are vege or not. Actually, in that way, veges and carnivores are alike --- veges are not people who just want to eat salad and vegetables all day long --- veges, like carnivores, need to make the focus of each meal protein, and then build a meal around that by adding appropriate amounts of carbs and fat. It's alot to learn, but you can do it.

Anyway, being vege makes me feel a lot "cleaner" inside (probably more info than you really needed to know, LOL), makes me feel generally lighter, more energized and less toxic. It is a worthy pursuit. Good luck & let me know if I can be of any further help to you!

Jamie

Hey jamie17, thanks for the info, it all sounds so complicated!! But I love tofu and I think I could incorporate more of it in my diet, no problem!! As of now, I eat a lot of chicken and sometimes fish.

So here's the deal. I have started off with 30 push ups every night, with my arms far apart to isolate my pecs. But after 3 weeks, I still don't really see a difference. Maybe I'm doing the push ups incorrectly? Or maybe I'm doing too few. How long do you think it should take before I notice a change? Right now, it doesn't even feel like there is any muscle there!

Hmmmm... more information is needed. I would think that after three weeks you would at least notice some kind of improvement in muscle tone. Does your chest seem tighter/more toned?
The other thing that occurs to me is that if you've been doing 30 pushups every night regularly for three weeks, your body is now very used to the effort required to do that amount of exercise, and it is no longer challenged by 30 pushups (I'm assuming from your post that the 30 pushups come relatively easy at this point?)In order to grow or make changes to your body, you need to constantly challenge it and keep your muscles off guard, because the body adapts very quickly to the levels of stress (in this case, good stress from working out) placed on it. Try this for a month and let me know how it goes: do 4 sets of 25 pushups per set, resting 30 seconds between sets 1 and 2 and 1-2 minutes between sets 2 and 3, then resting 30 seconds again between sets 3 and 4. Vary your hand positions for each set: wide, narrow, "regular" and repeat one grip style for the fourth set. (One good way of finding your "regular" or neutral grip is to kneel on your knees as if you are going to get into the pushup position, then just allow yourself to fall forward --- your hands will naturally go out and catch yourself at about where your neutral grip would be. Generally, this is at about mid-chest or somewhere around nipple level, and wider than your torso but not too much wider than your shoulders. Then you just have to adjust the rest of your body into the pushup position and you're set. Your wide grips and narrow grips would be variations on where your hands fall in a neutral grip.)
You may not be able to do 4 sets of 25 pushups --- that's okay. Do as many as you can for each set, and then move on as scheduled. You might only be able to do 5 per set. Or you might "shoot your wad" with the first set --- doing 25 --- and then only be able to do five more in the second set. The goal is to do as many as possible within each specific set and handgrip --- not necessarily to just power your way through 100 pushups. Make sure your pushup form is perfect for each one you do --- if your form starts to fail, then stop: you're done for that set. Rest and move on. Is any of this making sense?
Pushups are working your muscles against your own body weight --- this will always tone you and improve your overall fitness, and for awhile (like if you've never worked out before) pushups may actually increase your muscle mass --- mostly because if there's nothing there, the only possibility is increasing. But eventually pushups will not be enough for muscle hypertrophy (i.e., building your muscles bigger) --- eventually, you will have to add some more weight to continue to stress the muscles and make them work harder and grow. Like how I brought that full-circle, there?

OK, that'll be $75. for the personal training. I accept PayPal. (Just kidding, Moderator).

Jamie

I agree with Jamie's post above. But I would also like to add that you should take a day off in between, so do your pushups every other day. Your muscles need rest time to rebuild in order for them to get bigger. If you're working the same muscles everyday, there's a good chance you're not allowing them time to rebuild themselves, and you won't see much results.

Yes, of course, Focus is right: your muscles need time to rest in order to grow and that rest is actually just as crucial to improvement as the exercises themselves. I neglected to mention the "rest" part of the equation, partly because I was thinking that your muscles might not actually be receiving enough stress/stimulation from pushups alone to build yopur muscles bigger, anyway. But absolutely rest if you are sore, or even just in the beginning until you see how this all will go. You won't ever go wrong with adding some rest in between your exercise sessions.
Thanks for remembering that part, Focus!

Thanks jamie17 and focus! Where do you learn about all these things? I have tried looking on the web for information but all I get are advertisements for supplements and stuff like that.

I tried out the push up technique you suggested jamie. I did 25 wide, 12 narrow, 16 normal and 14 wide again. Should I feel any strain in my chest? Because usually I only feel sore on my arms.

That's awesome! So you were doing 30 pushups when you were actually capable of doing 67! See how much stronger/fitter you were than you thought? That's great --- you should feel great about that; good start. Yes, you should feel sore in your chest --- you are trying to work your pecs, after all, so that soreness tells you that you targeted the right spots. Hopefully it is just a kind of "good" soreness and not pain --- repeat after me: sore and tired good, pain and stiffness bad. Since you are feeling it, definitely wait a day before doing it again as per Focus' advice.

So, how did I learn all this? Well, I'll tell you a story, which is probably more than you really care to know, but it will answer your question. I joined my first gym in 1986, and for probably a good five or six years I really didn't know what I was doing. But I was gradually being exposed to things, and little things leaked into my brain without me even realizing it. Also, I was developing a kind of "muscle memory", where I was learning how to use my body and learning how to feel my muscles when they were working, control that better and learning how to isolate the different muscles and really feel one from another. Meanwhile, I was making changes to my diet and reading everything I could get my hands on about nutrition or working out. There was no internet back then, so I had to rely on books and magazines. (Remember those?) My goals were different then: I was studying dance and I had no interest in building muscle, just in being lean and flexible and strong. Also, I was in college, so I had no money and that really affected how much I could spend on food and healthy eating (it costs more, ironically, to eat healthily, than it does to just eat junk food). For years I was just kind of fumbling along, food and workout-wise, but even during these years I was accumulating knowledge and developing habits that would stand me in good stead once I decided to really get serious. Eventually I really committed to health and fitness, changed my goals to put on a lot more muscle, and then I went through a period where I lived and breathed it to almost the exclusion of everything else --- I really learned alot during that period: I made friends with trainers at my gym and worked out with them (still couldn't afford to hire them at that point)and continued to read everything I could, studying to become certified as a trainer myself. I didn't have much of a life outside of the gym back then, and my diet was so severe that I turned down a lot of social engagements because I couldn't eat or drink what I knew would be there, but I did get a pretty fine body out of all that, so you know, there's a bad side and a good side. As I've gotten older I've become a much bigger fan of moderation and relaxing and letting yourself have some fun and cheat on your diet here and there and still maintain your fitness level. So I'm not nearly as freakishly strict about my diet or my workouts anymore. And frankly, I'm probably not in as amazing shape as I once was (but, hey, I'm ten years older, too) but I'm okay with that and hopefully I still look alright <grin>. But I don't know if I would have ever gotten to this point if I hadn't gone through all that first.
Not that you asked, but I highly recommend people join a gym and work out and change their diet to reflect a more healthy lifestyle. You can't imagine how much it improves every aspect of your life --- from energy to heart health to confidence to everything else --- to set a goal, develop the drive and discipline and knowledge to reach that goal, then to reach it. It just improves the quality of your life so much, and you really don't realize how much until you get involved in it.

So I am really happy that you are starting down that road --- way to go! And I hope my relating all this illustrates that you can start out knowing nothing and just kind of flopping around directionless, but that you will learn, and it will get easier, and you will reach your goals. Always ask questions --- here, or at the gym if you are able to eventually join one --- keep your eyes and ears open, and hold a picture in your head of what you wan to look like or what goals you want to reach. Never lose sight of that picture, and just keep plugging away at it. I would love to hear of your progress, or hear about other people's stories or hear their advice. (You can never stop learning!)

Also, I don't remember if you said how old you were or what your specific situation is --- it might be easier for people on this board to tailor advice if we knew that.

Good work --- keep going --- and let us know how you're getting along. Jamie

Awesome!! So your knowledge comes from years of experience and training (you're a professional right?). I have a long long ways to go then, but I hope I will be able to pick things up as easily as you can. I am completely clueless about this topic as you've probably noticed! Your advice has been so helpful to me, thanks again!!!

I've never been to a gym before and truthfully, I don't know if I could afford it either. I think I would also be too shy to work out in public due to my sociophobia. The reason I am starting to exercise and eat healthier is for the reasons that you listed: to feel and look better and hopefully from that, I will also have more energy and confidence. I just want to get some definition, because right now I feel like a pole. And I have small shoulders, so it makes me look really small. Hopefully the pushups can do something for my shoulders too? I hear that exercise also makes people feel good because the brain releases some kind of "happy chemical". I'm depressed too, so hopefully, the exercise will help alleviate that, if only temporarily.

Oh and BTW, I am 22 years old and I'm 160lbs. My Dad and sister recently said my wrists are like two sticks (I measured them and they're 6 inches around). I don't know why my wrists are so thin, but the rest of my body is pretty average. I wear size small tops though and my pants are 32x32.

I didn't feel sore today...is that bad? My arms and chest feel fine. Does that mean I wasn't working hard enough? One thing that I have noticed from doing those pushups for the past few weeks, is that my arms (biceps only) seem to have some semblance of muscle in them when I flex them now. But my chest seems to look the same. My wrists still look like sticks too, lol.

[This message has been edited by misanthrope (edited 09-12-2003).]

Misanthrope

Gosh, I can relate so well to how you feel. When I first joined a gym, I weighed about 135-140 lbs, and I'm 6 feet tall! (That's about 45 lbs. less than I weigh now.)I was soooo skinny and so self-conscious about it. I just wanted to get in there and get out before anyone saw how out-of-shape (in my mind) I was. I wore, like, a giant teeshirt and a huge oversized sweatshirt and sweatpants and sometimes even a hoody... I was trying to add as much bulk as I could through fabric --- LOL --- seems silly now. And jeez, was it ever hot trying to work out with all those layers on! I would look at the muscle guys in the free weight area and try to wait for them to leave before I went over there, because I was so embarrassed and intimidated. It took forever to get a workout in because I was spending so much time hiding!
Yes, endorphins are released when you work out. Hopefully that will make you learn to love working out and want to work out more. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif I had a trainer friend who used to say that you should always masturbate immediately after working out, because then you will associate working out with pleasure and want to work out more. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/wink.gif Can't say if that works but I do seem to get horny when I work out, so...
About the depresion: yes, it will help. I have also been fighting depression all my life and it is definitely worse when I haven't worked out for a few days. First of all, I think your body chemistry is somehow regulated by working out and when you don't do it, everything gets all screwed up. Then, when you don't work out, you feel terrible that you missed a day and then that makes you depressed... it's just easier to work out. It might take awhile, but I think working out will make you feel better, eventually. Like all the other effects of working out, the benefits are cumulative(and, I might add, exponential). Actually, NOT working out is also like that --- if you don't work out, the damage to your body will also be cumulative. No wonder people, who suddenly decide in their late forties or fifties that they need to eat better and take care of their bodies, find it so difficult to reverse the habits and damage they have accumulated over a lifetime. Just be really happy and proud of yourself that you are taking action now to develop healthy habits that will (hopefully)last a lifetime.

I'm sorry that your family is making you feel weird about being thin. It's probably actually better to be in your position --- thin and wanting to gain --- then to be in the opposite position. Are they jealous, maybe? Although, I have to say, that out of curiosity I just measured my wrist (never done that before) and my wrist measures seven inches around, and my wrist doesn't look fragile or "pole-like" at all. So maybe your six inches isn't so bad after all, huh? It's not that far off from seven. Also, my waist is 30 inches --- so I don't see you as being "a pole" at 32x32. You probably seem alot worse to yourself than you do to anyone else! We're always hardest on ourselves.

About the gym thing: well, it would be easier if you were at a gym, but this just means you will have to (once again) be more resourceful. I think it was Focus who suggested an inexpensive home gym system --- is that a possibility? Do you have the space? You should also get some magazines like Men's Health or Men's Fitness --- I think the later, especially, often has articles about how to do a workout at home. You're just going to have to learn to use your own bodyweight as a tool for your workouts. There are alot of really basic calisthenic type exercises which will keep you toned and improve your overall fitness and flexibility, and you don't need any special equipment or gyms to do them. But --- and again, I think Focus also mentioned this --- these kinds of exercises are mainly going to tone you up, keep you tight and defined, but they most likely won't do much to build muscle. At your weight and age, you are probably already pretty toned and lean. It doesn't sound like you need that much more help in that area. You will, then, eventually need to lift some kind of weights in order to build muscle and put on some weight --- if that's what you want to do. Is there a YMCA near you? They usually have fairly reasonable rates. What about asking for a gym membership for your birthday/Christmas/whatever? Tell people that you are making an investment in yourself, and no matter what the cost, you are worth it. Ask people to contribute --- as opposed to everyone giving you socks and cds --- to the "send me to a gym" fund. Yeah, you won't have alot to open, but that's a good lesson anyway: working out is often about putting in the time and work now for something you can't see but that you know will come later. Alot of times you may feel like you have nothing to show for it and like you are getting nowhere, but you have to keep putting in that time and having faith in your ultimate goal if you ever want to reap the rewards. Awwww, see? This just turned into a parable. Religion and working out, all rolled into one.
Finally, yes, your arms will be tired and you will be seeing improvement in them. Of course, you are using your arms as well as your chest muscles --- you are pushing up with them, after all. Ideally, you are isolating your pecs, but even in ideal situations there are alot of other little (or not so little) helper muscles working to stabilize you and assist in the effort. Pushups are also working to some extent your arms and shoulders and all through your torso --- your abs and obliques, etc. But hopefully it is working your pecs, mostly. It will not significantly contribute to muscle growth in your shoulders. If you really think that the pushups are working something else instead, either: (a)they ARE working something else more and you need to watch or adjust your form a bit or (b)you just haven't really learned to "feel" your target muscles yet --- it's easier to feel our arms and shoulders because we use those every day to reach for stuff and pick stuff up and move stuff, etc., but it is a bit harder, especially in the beginning, to feel your pecs working, because we just don't know what that feels like sometimes. So we notice other stuff first. I'm hoping this is what it is in your case.

Okay --- I think that covers it. Let me know how it goes.

Originally posted by misanthrope:
I've never been to a gym before and truthfully, I don't know if I could afford it either. I think I would also be too shy to work out in public due to my sociophobia.

Well, a gym would be the best thing for you. It sounds like you are really motivated to build your body up. Its going to be difficult to get the results you want without access to either weight lifting machines, free weights, or a good home exercise machine. If you shop around, you should be able to find a gym near you for well under $100 a month. As for the shyness thing, well that will be tough to overcome, but you just have to suck up your pride and go in there. Who cares what others think? You won't be the only beginner there anyway. And nobody is going to say anything or make fun of you. And before you know it, you won't be the skinniest guy in the gym anymore. You may want to consider using a personal trainer while at the gym at first. If you work 1 on 1 with a personal trainer, it will take your mind off of being self conscious at the gym. Plus the trainer will give you instruction on proper technique, and what exercises are good, how to use the machines, etc. After a month or so, ditch the trainer and do it yourself. By then, you'll be comfortable at the gym.

If you're really set against going to the gym, your next best bet is a good home exercise machine such as Bowflex, Total Gym, etc. Some of these can run upwards of $3k though. If you're on a budget, again, my recommendation is a free weight set with a weight bench. You can do a LOT of great weight training with free weights. And again, if you shop around you can probably find the weight set and the bench for under $100, and you can work out in the privacy and comfort of your own home. There are plenty of books out there that have good instructions for proper free weight training, many of them written by previous Mr. Universe's.

Oh and BTW, I am 22 years old and I'm 160lbs. My Dad and sister recently said my wrists are like two sticks (I measured them and they're 6 inches around). I don't know why my wrists are so thin, but the rest of my body is pretty average. I wear size small tops though and my pants are 32x32.

How tall are you? Weight and wrist size doesn't mean anything without knowing your height.

Wrist size is a good determinant of frame size. Frame size is basically the size of your skeleton and bones relative to your height. Its classified as small frame, medium frame or large frame. The size of your frame can be a determinant of your theoritcal largest muscle size you can achieve. Here's the categories based on wrist measurement:

SMALL FRAME:

Women:
• Height is less 5' 2" and your wrist size is less than 5.5"
• Height is 5' 2" to 5' 5" and your wrist size is less than 6"
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size is less than 6.25"

Men:
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size 5.5" to 6.5"

MEDIUM FRAME:

Women:
• Height is less 5' 2" and your wrist size is 5.5" to 5.75"
• Height is 5' 2" to 5' 5" and your wrist size is 6" to 6.25"
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size is 6.25" to 6.5"

Men:
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size is 6.5" to 7.5"

LARGE FRAME:

Women:
• Height is less 5' 2" and your wrist size is greater than 5.75"
• Height is 5' 2" to 5' 5" and your wrist size is greater than 6.25"
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size is greater than 6.5"

Men:
• Height is greater than 5' 5" and your wrist size is greater than 7.5"


So assumung you're taller than 5'5" and you have a 6 inch wrist, then you have a small frame.


I didn't feel sore today...is that bad? My arms and chest feel fine. Does that mean I wasn't working hard enough?

Not necessarily. When you first start working out, you will notice soreness the day or two after. When you work out on a regular basis, this soreness tends to go away, even though you may have had a good workout. You should feel your muscles tight though right after a good workout.

My wrists still look like sticks too, lol.

Well, your wrists aren't going to change. There's no muscle around your wrists, so assuming you don't put on fat, they'll never get bigger.

A good web site for workout information is:

http://www.freetrainers.com

As the name implies, its free. Just register, and you can set up an exercise program, even a program at home without any equipment.

I just wanted to give an update on how I'm doing! I've been following the 4 sets of 25 pushups with a rest every other day. I've been doing this for about 3 weeks. I have been able to do the full 100 pushups maybe 4 times. Usually I get up to 75 though.

I have a question about the correct form when doing push ups. Should I be looking straight down at the ground or should I be looking in the direction my body is pointing?

I've been drinking only water and eating chicken breast meat and lots of leafy-green vegetables. Although, today I had a steak. I've been thinking of drinking more milk instead of the water, is this a good idea?

I still do not really see a difference in my chest, but I really see a difference in my arms.

Oh, and BTW, I'm 5'11". I wish I was a little taller too...but I think that is the tallest I'm gonna get!

Originally posted by misanthrope:
I have a question about the correct form when doing push ups. Should I be looking straight down at the ground or should I be looking in the direction my body is pointing?

Which direction you look isn't important. What is important, however, is that you keep your back straight! Don't let your back or but sink down, which is what typically happens when you get tired. Keep everything straight. I like to do pushups facing a wall mirror, and I look straight forward so I can see my form in the mirror. Sometimes you don't realize you have bad form until you see yourself in the mirror.

I've been drinking only water and eating chicken breast meat and lots of leafy-green vegetables. Although, today I had a steak. I've been thinking of drinking more milk instead of the water, is this a good idea?

Sounds like a good diet you've adopted! Good job! BTW, there's nothing wrong with steak, and is a good source of protein. Just don't eat a lot of the heavy, fatty kind for your heart health. Filet Mignon, Porterhouse, Shell steaks, etc. have quite a bit of saturated fat and cholesterol in them, so limit your intake of these - but once in a while is fine! London Broil or Top Round are very good steaks that are actually leaner than chicken! They may be a bit tougher and less flavorful, but they are better for you. You can eat plenty of those, and not worry about a thing.

Milk is a great source of protein, and if you're trying to bulk up and add weight and muscle, it is good to drink lots of milk. So go for it, as long as you're not lactose intolerant. Watch the milk fat though - I would go with 1% milk, which will give you the protein without all the fat. I wouldn't replace water with milk completely - that's a lot of milk. But if you can drink 2-3 glasses of milk a day, that's good.


Oh, and BTW, I'm 5'11". I wish I was a little taller too...but I think that is the tallest I'm gonna get!

That's a great height! The average height of an adult male in the U.S. is 5'9" so you're taller than average!

Thought I would tell you how I've gotten my broad shoulders and great pecs and big arms. I don't make to a gym and I'm bad about not doing an exercise routine. But I do things like leg squats (without weights) and walking some.
Getting back to the pecs and shoulders I have been doing this for years----while sitting in the chair (whilewatching tv or anything)I grab each side of the arm rest with my hands and raise my body up and down. I usually do about 30 reps nowdays. I will rest a few minutes and then will do about 30 reps again.
Now I'm not saying it's superior or anything to the exercises you guys have talked about. Just saying what I've been doing and I get so much attention from the women when out. I don't wear cutoff shirts to show off either---it's just very noticeable my pecs are big and great looking and that my arms are big. My shoulders are broad too.
I think my legs could stand to be thicker because of my upper body so I've been doing more leg squats lately.
Of course I only do the leg squats and sitting down body raise every other day to allow muscle time to rebuild.
I know what I do doesn't work all the muscles but it has been simple and convenient to do. I've always been a meat and potatoes kind of guy so the protein from the meat plays a part no doubt. I'm 6'1 205 lbs, so I am overweight according to health charts. But it looks good in the right places.

[This message has been edited by imbythewater (edited 10-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by imbythewater (edited 10-13-2003).]

Hey, Misanthrope, great job!

Glad to hear that you've been making healthy choices & sticking to them. Isn't it great to see your arms looking better? That should be good motivation.

As usual, I like the advice Focus gave you, but I do have to take exception to one thing: I think when you are doing pushups, you should be looking at the floor. As Focus noted, you want to make sure your spine is straight --- that means all the way to the base of your head. When you are in pushup position, your face is facing downward, so naturally you are looking at the floor below you. If you want to look forward, you have to bend your neck upwards --- an equivalent angle to standing upright and tilting your head all the way back until it almost rests on your shoulderblades and looking up at the ceiling --- and that puts a very severe and unnatural curve in your spine at your neck. I think it is courting injury. If you want to watch your form, try doing pushups sideways to a mirror, then (with your head so that you are still looking down) you can just turn your head to the side a little and look in the mirror. Still not so good for the spine to turn your head, but I think it is better than bending it backwards. When I first started doing pushups, I was told to lower myself "until your nose touches the floor" --- kind of gross if you are doing it on a dirty floor. But I think the idea was to keep your head and spine in alignment, and if your nose touches the floor, then your head is in the right place.

What Imbythewater is describing is dips --- also a very good exercise for chest and triceps. You could try that, too. I just hope you use a sturdy chair that can't slide on the floor! LOL.

Good luck & keep updating us.

[This message has been edited by jamie17 (edited 10-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by jamie17 (edited 10-13-2003).]