Marie55
10-13-2002, 12:39 AM
Mother/daughter relationship is very strained and I need some insight.
I was childless for several years then God blessed me with the most beautiful little baby girl. She was precious and the apple of my eye. I loved her dearly and still do. When the second child came along she did not move over to make room. I rocked the baby with oldest sitting my lap reading a book to her. I cooked meals while doing hoola-hoops with her at same time. She demanded constant attention.
We had 5 children in 10 years, so I was always busy with babies along with the older children. Discipline was always left up to me. My husband was from the old school of being the provider and when he came home watch tv or read newspaper and not help with children. Therefore he was always the sweet daddy and mother was the meany dishing out discipline when needed.
Our oldest daughter preferred attention in the negative way and by age 10 she was a handful. No matter what method I used it did not work, she was going to do as she pleased regardless of the consequences.
By the time she was 16 years old she hated her mother, but I still loved her and still do but the relationship between us has always been strained. She started pulling away, distancing herself and not opening up to conversations or anything, did not even want to hear her mother's voice. She always wanted money spent on her but we had a large family and money just was not there to take her shopping like some of her friends mothers did.
In other words, she has felt deprived, abused and unloved. All quite to the contrary.
At age 42 she wants a relationship with her mother but wants her mother to say things she wants her to say, in other words put words in the mother's mouth that are not true and wants her to make promises that simply are not realistic or does not apply plus give ultimatiums.
When she gets angry at siblings she ends up ripping mother up one side and down the other and mother is the blame for everything that has not worked out in her life. She is still single.
I am at my witts end on knowing how to deal with my daughter. She was raised with same rules, discipline as the others, however, she was disciplined more because she did more to be diciplined for. I could not let her hurt the other children, which she did on a regular basis.
She wants me to answer questions about the past. I really do not have answers for her. I did the best I could, God did not send instructions with a strong willed baby. I have turned it over to God, it has been too much for me and my health is fragile. She has become a religious fanatic to a certain extent but does not apply God's word to herself and relationship with mother. She has no respect for me.
Please advise how to handle this situation. No parent is perfect, we all make mistakes but we do the best we can.
Trying to sit down and talk with her just does not work, her anger, raised voice, accusations, demands, etc. defeat the purpose.
Tomorrow, we will probably have another sit down discussion which will leave us both in tears.
If anyone has advice I need it now.
Thanks,
Marie
I was childless for several years then God blessed me with the most beautiful little baby girl. She was precious and the apple of my eye. I loved her dearly and still do. When the second child came along she did not move over to make room. I rocked the baby with oldest sitting my lap reading a book to her. I cooked meals while doing hoola-hoops with her at same time. She demanded constant attention.
We had 5 children in 10 years, so I was always busy with babies along with the older children. Discipline was always left up to me. My husband was from the old school of being the provider and when he came home watch tv or read newspaper and not help with children. Therefore he was always the sweet daddy and mother was the meany dishing out discipline when needed.
Our oldest daughter preferred attention in the negative way and by age 10 she was a handful. No matter what method I used it did not work, she was going to do as she pleased regardless of the consequences.
By the time she was 16 years old she hated her mother, but I still loved her and still do but the relationship between us has always been strained. She started pulling away, distancing herself and not opening up to conversations or anything, did not even want to hear her mother's voice. She always wanted money spent on her but we had a large family and money just was not there to take her shopping like some of her friends mothers did.
In other words, she has felt deprived, abused and unloved. All quite to the contrary.
At age 42 she wants a relationship with her mother but wants her mother to say things she wants her to say, in other words put words in the mother's mouth that are not true and wants her to make promises that simply are not realistic or does not apply plus give ultimatiums.
When she gets angry at siblings she ends up ripping mother up one side and down the other and mother is the blame for everything that has not worked out in her life. She is still single.
I am at my witts end on knowing how to deal with my daughter. She was raised with same rules, discipline as the others, however, she was disciplined more because she did more to be diciplined for. I could not let her hurt the other children, which she did on a regular basis.
She wants me to answer questions about the past. I really do not have answers for her. I did the best I could, God did not send instructions with a strong willed baby. I have turned it over to God, it has been too much for me and my health is fragile. She has become a religious fanatic to a certain extent but does not apply God's word to herself and relationship with mother. She has no respect for me.
Please advise how to handle this situation. No parent is perfect, we all make mistakes but we do the best we can.
Trying to sit down and talk with her just does not work, her anger, raised voice, accusations, demands, etc. defeat the purpose.
Tomorrow, we will probably have another sit down discussion which will leave us both in tears.
If anyone has advice I need it now.
Thanks,
Marie
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ffsmith
10-13-2002, 02:40 AM
Is it possible to see a therapist or a counselor with your daughter?
If you still love her and she wants a relationship with you this might be the best way to go and might help avoid too many more tears.
Now I am going to say some things that might sound like an attack on you
But this is NOT my intention.
I am just saying some things you might want to think about.
I am very bias because I have a mother who has done some very nasty things to me and I have no kids of my own so do not even listen to me if you do not want to.
Plus your daughter is old enough to be forgiving and nice if you are making an effort.
First you seem very close minded about your daughter. You have her labeled as the difficult child. The needy child. She is always a handful and never listens to you.
All these things may be 100% true, but to constantly interact with her with this attitude is not the way to
start.
You start with a chip on your shoulder that you did the best that you could and she is the problem,
And I am sure she starts with a chip that you were mean and you are the problem in her life and she was good.
You both start with attitudes that are not going to help the relationship.
You say, “she has felt deprived, abused and unloved. All quite to the contrary.”
That too is the wrong attitude. Again you may be 100% correct, but it will never change the fact that this is the way your daughter feels.
There is no point trying to argue that what she feels is wrong. Trying to point out that she was a difficult child will not help either. Using the logic that she was raised under the same rules and discipline as every one else is not going to work either because she is an individual and even the fact that she was the first child makes the situation unique.
Like you said you made some mistakes, and everyone does. Just make sure she knows that you truly are sorry.
Anger and emotion probably has clouded the way your daughter sees the past. I am sure you do disserve more respect then she gives you.
Raised voices never work. Tell her that this will not be accepted.
Now how to deal with the accusations, demands, ultimatums and the things she wants you to say.
DO NOT BE DEFENSIVE!!
This will just lead her to get more angry and louder.
Here are some examples of non-defensive responses
1 oh
2 oh, I see
3 that is interesting
4 you are certainly entitled to your opinion
5 I am sorry that you feel this way
6 I am sorry that you don’t approve
7 you might be right, let me think about that
8 I am sorry that you are so upset (hurt, disappointed)
9 please can we talk about this more latter when I (you, both of us) are not so upset.
Trying to interact in a non-defensive way is almost impossible with out practice and effort. So like I said in the beginning maybe you could both talk with a counselor.
You are a little vague on what all she is asking of you, but if you are uncomfortable with it than do not agree to it.
If your think what she is saying is untrue, than say that you have a difference of opinion but still respect her and her opinions.
I do not know what to say about the religious fanaticism, in my opinion it is best if that stays out of the relationship all together because it just clouds the issues and is ammunition for both sides
At some point you may have to make a choice that it is just too painful to have her in your life. At that point you can cut off these sit down discussion and all interaction that is just is not healthy for you.
Even if she does not want to see a counselor with you, I think you might be able to learn some techniques for dealing with the situation and your feelings by seeing one alone.
Again this is all just ideas do not take me too seriously
Good Luck and Thinking of You
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-13-2002).]
If you still love her and she wants a relationship with you this might be the best way to go and might help avoid too many more tears.
Now I am going to say some things that might sound like an attack on you
But this is NOT my intention.
I am just saying some things you might want to think about.
I am very bias because I have a mother who has done some very nasty things to me and I have no kids of my own so do not even listen to me if you do not want to.
Plus your daughter is old enough to be forgiving and nice if you are making an effort.
First you seem very close minded about your daughter. You have her labeled as the difficult child. The needy child. She is always a handful and never listens to you.
All these things may be 100% true, but to constantly interact with her with this attitude is not the way to
start.
You start with a chip on your shoulder that you did the best that you could and she is the problem,
And I am sure she starts with a chip that you were mean and you are the problem in her life and she was good.
You both start with attitudes that are not going to help the relationship.
You say, “she has felt deprived, abused and unloved. All quite to the contrary.”
That too is the wrong attitude. Again you may be 100% correct, but it will never change the fact that this is the way your daughter feels.
There is no point trying to argue that what she feels is wrong. Trying to point out that she was a difficult child will not help either. Using the logic that she was raised under the same rules and discipline as every one else is not going to work either because she is an individual and even the fact that she was the first child makes the situation unique.
Like you said you made some mistakes, and everyone does. Just make sure she knows that you truly are sorry.
Anger and emotion probably has clouded the way your daughter sees the past. I am sure you do disserve more respect then she gives you.
Raised voices never work. Tell her that this will not be accepted.
Now how to deal with the accusations, demands, ultimatums and the things she wants you to say.
DO NOT BE DEFENSIVE!!
This will just lead her to get more angry and louder.
Here are some examples of non-defensive responses
1 oh
2 oh, I see
3 that is interesting
4 you are certainly entitled to your opinion
5 I am sorry that you feel this way
6 I am sorry that you don’t approve
7 you might be right, let me think about that
8 I am sorry that you are so upset (hurt, disappointed)
9 please can we talk about this more latter when I (you, both of us) are not so upset.
Trying to interact in a non-defensive way is almost impossible with out practice and effort. So like I said in the beginning maybe you could both talk with a counselor.
You are a little vague on what all she is asking of you, but if you are uncomfortable with it than do not agree to it.
If your think what she is saying is untrue, than say that you have a difference of opinion but still respect her and her opinions.
I do not know what to say about the religious fanaticism, in my opinion it is best if that stays out of the relationship all together because it just clouds the issues and is ammunition for both sides
At some point you may have to make a choice that it is just too painful to have her in your life. At that point you can cut off these sit down discussion and all interaction that is just is not healthy for you.
Even if she does not want to see a counselor with you, I think you might be able to learn some techniques for dealing with the situation and your feelings by seeing one alone.
Again this is all just ideas do not take me too seriously
Good Luck and Thinking of You
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-13-2002).]
Marie55
10-13-2002, 03:21 PM
Thank you ffsmith. I am not offended at anything you had to say. I need to hear from someone else about how to try and handle the situation. I want my daughter in my life but want it to be a pleasant one.
I can give you a fresh example. Last night I showed her and other daughters a book by Beth Moore about prayer a SS Class member had loaned me recently. Since my oldest daughter has been in many Bible studies, etc. I thought she could give me her opinion as to how good the book was and whether it would be worth spending the money to purchase. The first thing she said was "Don't read this book and try to apply anything to me." I replied that the SS Class member had loaned the book to two other members and they both bought their own copy. What I was wanting to know if she thought the book was worth the price. My daughter also said she had done the Beth Moore study series.
There was no conversation before or after regarding our relationship but she leaped to cut me off at the pass so to speak.
My daugher lives in another city, too far for either of us to travel to see a counselor together. I will most likely seek a counselor here and go. I have tried to reach my daughter thru the years but she has only the same thing to complain about over and over, that is we don't have a good relatioship, I don't have the same relationship with her that I have with other daughers. I do not get ripped up one side down and the other by other daughters, so naturally the relationship with them is more pleasant and not strained. She does not let go of anything, holds onto grudges forever. Actually she has not verbalized the exact thing that is bothering her. I wish she would write down the things she wants to clear up, then I would know what is troubling her and perhaps be able to give an explanation to her satisfaction.
I have a forgiving heart and I know she does too but there is a road block in the way for her to forgive.
Thanks for the non-defensive replies. Yes, I have automatically taken the defensive when being attacked. That probably added fuel to the fire.
Yes, my daugher is God's wonderful blessing, beautiful, intellient, talented, many redeeming qualities. This makes it even more difficult to understand her roadblock in our relationship.
Yes, I was vague because I only have vague info from my daughter as to what the problem is.
You mentioned she is an individual. Very true, I had to work with 5 different personalities and what worked for one did not work for another, I had to try and find what would work with each one of them. My oldest daugher was my challenge, I never found what would work. Try to give her more love and she pulled away. However, all were expected to have respect for one another. She apparently did not feel this applied to her.
I spoke with the peditrician one time about how to deal with her. He said to draw a line on what had to be disciplined and let the other slide. I did that, but it did not solve the problem. I drew the line that discipline would be dealt with if she hurt the other children and tried to be blind to her many other infractions. This did not work.
Thanks,
Marie
I can give you a fresh example. Last night I showed her and other daughters a book by Beth Moore about prayer a SS Class member had loaned me recently. Since my oldest daughter has been in many Bible studies, etc. I thought she could give me her opinion as to how good the book was and whether it would be worth spending the money to purchase. The first thing she said was "Don't read this book and try to apply anything to me." I replied that the SS Class member had loaned the book to two other members and they both bought their own copy. What I was wanting to know if she thought the book was worth the price. My daughter also said she had done the Beth Moore study series.
There was no conversation before or after regarding our relationship but she leaped to cut me off at the pass so to speak.
My daugher lives in another city, too far for either of us to travel to see a counselor together. I will most likely seek a counselor here and go. I have tried to reach my daughter thru the years but she has only the same thing to complain about over and over, that is we don't have a good relatioship, I don't have the same relationship with her that I have with other daughers. I do not get ripped up one side down and the other by other daughters, so naturally the relationship with them is more pleasant and not strained. She does not let go of anything, holds onto grudges forever. Actually she has not verbalized the exact thing that is bothering her. I wish she would write down the things she wants to clear up, then I would know what is troubling her and perhaps be able to give an explanation to her satisfaction.
I have a forgiving heart and I know she does too but there is a road block in the way for her to forgive.
Thanks for the non-defensive replies. Yes, I have automatically taken the defensive when being attacked. That probably added fuel to the fire.
Yes, my daugher is God's wonderful blessing, beautiful, intellient, talented, many redeeming qualities. This makes it even more difficult to understand her roadblock in our relationship.
Yes, I was vague because I only have vague info from my daughter as to what the problem is.
You mentioned she is an individual. Very true, I had to work with 5 different personalities and what worked for one did not work for another, I had to try and find what would work with each one of them. My oldest daugher was my challenge, I never found what would work. Try to give her more love and she pulled away. However, all were expected to have respect for one another. She apparently did not feel this applied to her.
I spoke with the peditrician one time about how to deal with her. He said to draw a line on what had to be disciplined and let the other slide. I did that, but it did not solve the problem. I drew the line that discipline would be dealt with if she hurt the other children and tried to be blind to her many other infractions. This did not work.
Thanks,
Marie
ffsmith
10-13-2002, 05:43 PM
Your example about the book shows that there is no doubt that your daughter is also stuck in to behaving a certain way. She jumps to the conclusion that you are attacking her or using that book against her.
When this is not your intention.
This is NOT a good thing for her to do.
Obviously she feels threatened and does not have good confidence. I can relate to that. And even if there is no good reason for her to feel that way, she does.
But again you have to be non-defensive and say ‘yes you are right I will not try and apply it to you”
It sounds like you did ok :)
It is normal for you to be closer to the daughters who do not rip you up and down. :)
But, it is also normal for your daughter to resent the fact that you are closer to the other daughters.
I am sure this makes her feel very bad even if she is mostly responsible. Or if things start with her behavior as you say
Your idea about writing things down is great. :) Have her do it. Maybe you could exchange letters every week. Talk about your relationship and just talk about every day life. If being mother and daughter did not work maybe just try just being friends at this point. :)
You are probably never going to be able to give an explanation to her satisfaction.
She is going to want an apology for something??? And want you to take responsibility for something???
I am not saying she is right but I think you will at some point have to make a decision as to how far you are able to go and admit to for the sake of the relationship.
When you say ‘She does not let go of anything, holds onto grudges forever’
You are hinting that you want her to do something and she wants you to do something.
Like you say there is a roadblock there.
I wish I could pin point the roadblock for you but I can not.
Maybe she can not either?
Can she meet with a counselor or a therapist alone about the relationship??
I feel really bad for you because you obviously love your daughter, but more than that you are looking for a way to make things better. And just the fact that you did not get super defensive about the things that I said shows that you do have an open mind.
There is no doubt that she will need to also have an open mind and make just as much of an effort as you.
Both of you are going to need to change your ways of thinking in order for the relationship to improve.
You did nothing terrible in the past. You were a good mother and did try your hardest to do the right thing.
You do deserve a lot A LOT of credit for this. But as you say mistakes were made and you were just not able to find a good way to deal with her. This is something that you may need to take responsibility for even though you might not see it as your fault. It is also something your daughter needs to get over and let the grudge go and forgive.
I also have a grudge against both parents that I will not let go of.
I will never forgive my father for promising me that I would be able to operate one of his businesses. Then not only did he not give me a fair chance but instead of admitting that he mislead me he blames me for making him go back on his word, calls me a “failure” and lately “crazy” and “ill”. If he would just admit that he hurt me badly it would be easier for me to drop this grudge, but he can never do that and because of this I can not love him like I wish I could. I hurt too badly
My mother has done things like refuse to write one page with my father stating what their intentions were for the businesses in the year 2000. She has written a very nasty letter to my lawyer behind my back that she refuses to ask him to return. She acknowledges that she knows these things have hurt me badly. Yet she will not write the page to this day and will not get the letter back?
Things I have forgiven or let go of it the time my mother made deposits into my accounts at tax time with out my approval because she needed to for her taxes to come out right. (She did not consider at all what it did to my taxes) I also try to forgive her attitude that she is entitled to have taken over (when I went into the military) a roadside business that I had started because she says I had “abandoned it”. She probably has to say this just so can live with herself. Still every year she runs that business it does bother me a little. I am determined to not have this be a wedge and thus give her and easy way out (just write one page and get one letter back) but it is hard when she insists on blaming me for her actions.
Now I am NOT saying my experiences are in any way similar to yours. But I thought I would share them with you as they are about grudges and forgiveness.
Wishing you the best.
When this is not your intention.
This is NOT a good thing for her to do.
Obviously she feels threatened and does not have good confidence. I can relate to that. And even if there is no good reason for her to feel that way, she does.
But again you have to be non-defensive and say ‘yes you are right I will not try and apply it to you”
It sounds like you did ok :)
It is normal for you to be closer to the daughters who do not rip you up and down. :)
But, it is also normal for your daughter to resent the fact that you are closer to the other daughters.
I am sure this makes her feel very bad even if she is mostly responsible. Or if things start with her behavior as you say
Your idea about writing things down is great. :) Have her do it. Maybe you could exchange letters every week. Talk about your relationship and just talk about every day life. If being mother and daughter did not work maybe just try just being friends at this point. :)
You are probably never going to be able to give an explanation to her satisfaction.
She is going to want an apology for something??? And want you to take responsibility for something???
I am not saying she is right but I think you will at some point have to make a decision as to how far you are able to go and admit to for the sake of the relationship.
When you say ‘She does not let go of anything, holds onto grudges forever’
You are hinting that you want her to do something and she wants you to do something.
Like you say there is a roadblock there.
I wish I could pin point the roadblock for you but I can not.
Maybe she can not either?
Can she meet with a counselor or a therapist alone about the relationship??
I feel really bad for you because you obviously love your daughter, but more than that you are looking for a way to make things better. And just the fact that you did not get super defensive about the things that I said shows that you do have an open mind.
There is no doubt that she will need to also have an open mind and make just as much of an effort as you.
Both of you are going to need to change your ways of thinking in order for the relationship to improve.
You did nothing terrible in the past. You were a good mother and did try your hardest to do the right thing.
You do deserve a lot A LOT of credit for this. But as you say mistakes were made and you were just not able to find a good way to deal with her. This is something that you may need to take responsibility for even though you might not see it as your fault. It is also something your daughter needs to get over and let the grudge go and forgive.
I also have a grudge against both parents that I will not let go of.
I will never forgive my father for promising me that I would be able to operate one of his businesses. Then not only did he not give me a fair chance but instead of admitting that he mislead me he blames me for making him go back on his word, calls me a “failure” and lately “crazy” and “ill”. If he would just admit that he hurt me badly it would be easier for me to drop this grudge, but he can never do that and because of this I can not love him like I wish I could. I hurt too badly
My mother has done things like refuse to write one page with my father stating what their intentions were for the businesses in the year 2000. She has written a very nasty letter to my lawyer behind my back that she refuses to ask him to return. She acknowledges that she knows these things have hurt me badly. Yet she will not write the page to this day and will not get the letter back?
Things I have forgiven or let go of it the time my mother made deposits into my accounts at tax time with out my approval because she needed to for her taxes to come out right. (She did not consider at all what it did to my taxes) I also try to forgive her attitude that she is entitled to have taken over (when I went into the military) a roadside business that I had started because she says I had “abandoned it”. She probably has to say this just so can live with herself. Still every year she runs that business it does bother me a little. I am determined to not have this be a wedge and thus give her and easy way out (just write one page and get one letter back) but it is hard when she insists on blaming me for her actions.
Now I am NOT saying my experiences are in any way similar to yours. But I thought I would share them with you as they are about grudges and forgiveness.
Wishing you the best.
Marie55
10-14-2002, 12:17 AM
Thanks again for your help. This afternoon we had a talk and prayer time with our daughter before she returned to her home in another city. I asked her to forgive me for the things she feels I did in the past and present but that was not enough. She said I probably did not even know what I had done and that is true, so I asked her to name the things so I would know. She could not, only saying it was little things here and there all thru the years that had built up and she could not take it anymore.
She did mention a recent email I sent asking her what kind of quilt she wanted me to make for her and sent a URL for her to look at a pattern that I thought might be close to what she wanted. She said I was ugly in the email. Hey, I only asked about a particular pattern and all I wanted to know was whether it came close to what she had in mind. I want to make a design she would enjoy. She called to discuss the quilt and she decided she might want a king size. Since I have carpal tunnel surgery on both hands, my hands are weak and fingers go numb some times. This makes hand quilting very difficult for me. I told her if she wanted a large quilt I could make the applique designed quilt top but she would need to have it quilted because my hands would not hold out to do it. She took this to mean that I would not make a quilt for her. Finally found out that she has a quilt handmade by each of her grandmothers and she wanted a hand made quilt all the way by me. Now, I did not say I would not make a quilt, just was letting her know I had physical limitations. To her this was another infraction on my part. Bad hands or not, she wanted me to quilt a large quilt. No thought for my pain, only what she wanted.
To clarify the quilt thing, I started crocheting bedspread or tablecloths for each child when they married, to be an heirloom wedding gift. I did make a coverlet for first daughter to marry and a tablecloth for the second daughter to marry and now have a tablecloth about half way made for a son, next in line. Another son married and I have not started his and he has been married 5 years. It takes me a long time to crochet these (bum hands). Since my oldest daughter has not married she asked if that meant she did not get a tablecloth. I told her I would make one when I finished the wedding gifts. She decided she would rather have a quilt instead for a throw on the sofa. I was not going to leave her out just because she did not marry but did need to make the wedding gifts first.
She did agree that she needed to be less sensitive and insisted I needed to think about what I say before speaking. I say yes to both, but if what I say does not seem to be anything wrong with it, never fails but my daughter will make someting negative out of it.
I am in hopes our discussion this evening will help but only time will tell. No, she will not go to a counselor or theapist because she does not feel there is anything wrong with her, it is all her mother and her mother needs to make all the changes.
Emailing back and forth is not the answer, she picks my emails to pieces turning everything I say into negative . She will find something wrong with everything that I write, so that is not an option.
At this point, lots of prayer for both of us, in hopes the roadblock will be resolved.
I found this forum and felt someone here might have some insight since most of you apparently have problems with parents or others. I felt it would be good to get opinions from those who have been on my daughter's side of the fence, to help open my eyes to possible problems.
Sorry to hear about your grudges. It is a shame that all families cannot be close and loving. I do hope things will work out for you and your parents.
Marie
She did mention a recent email I sent asking her what kind of quilt she wanted me to make for her and sent a URL for her to look at a pattern that I thought might be close to what she wanted. She said I was ugly in the email. Hey, I only asked about a particular pattern and all I wanted to know was whether it came close to what she had in mind. I want to make a design she would enjoy. She called to discuss the quilt and she decided she might want a king size. Since I have carpal tunnel surgery on both hands, my hands are weak and fingers go numb some times. This makes hand quilting very difficult for me. I told her if she wanted a large quilt I could make the applique designed quilt top but she would need to have it quilted because my hands would not hold out to do it. She took this to mean that I would not make a quilt for her. Finally found out that she has a quilt handmade by each of her grandmothers and she wanted a hand made quilt all the way by me. Now, I did not say I would not make a quilt, just was letting her know I had physical limitations. To her this was another infraction on my part. Bad hands or not, she wanted me to quilt a large quilt. No thought for my pain, only what she wanted.
To clarify the quilt thing, I started crocheting bedspread or tablecloths for each child when they married, to be an heirloom wedding gift. I did make a coverlet for first daughter to marry and a tablecloth for the second daughter to marry and now have a tablecloth about half way made for a son, next in line. Another son married and I have not started his and he has been married 5 years. It takes me a long time to crochet these (bum hands). Since my oldest daughter has not married she asked if that meant she did not get a tablecloth. I told her I would make one when I finished the wedding gifts. She decided she would rather have a quilt instead for a throw on the sofa. I was not going to leave her out just because she did not marry but did need to make the wedding gifts first.
She did agree that she needed to be less sensitive and insisted I needed to think about what I say before speaking. I say yes to both, but if what I say does not seem to be anything wrong with it, never fails but my daughter will make someting negative out of it.
I am in hopes our discussion this evening will help but only time will tell. No, she will not go to a counselor or theapist because she does not feel there is anything wrong with her, it is all her mother and her mother needs to make all the changes.
Emailing back and forth is not the answer, she picks my emails to pieces turning everything I say into negative . She will find something wrong with everything that I write, so that is not an option.
At this point, lots of prayer for both of us, in hopes the roadblock will be resolved.
I found this forum and felt someone here might have some insight since most of you apparently have problems with parents or others. I felt it would be good to get opinions from those who have been on my daughter's side of the fence, to help open my eyes to possible problems.
Sorry to hear about your grudges. It is a shame that all families cannot be close and loving. I do hope things will work out for you and your parents.
Marie
ffsmith
10-14-2002, 11:53 AM
I feel bad for writing so much and maybe scaring away others.
I hope someone else will give you their opinions.
Your quilt story is VERY interesting to me. I am the oldest too. I am not married either.
I am very jealous of my siblings who are getting married.
My sister has been given 8,000 for a car and 50,000 worth of land and my brother just given 100,000 in equity in a home. My father would not even take time to look with me at homes that I had wanted to buy.
I do feel absolutely terrible that I will never be married and never make my parents proud in this way. It adds to my feelings of failure. I give up hope and think what is the point of going on.
So given this, I can see that the quilt has a lot of emotional baggage tied to it. You may just see it as a nice gift or present. But to your daughter it probably means a whole lot more. It is tied to what she thinks of herself.
Still you have the right to inform her of your limitations and the right to give her any size present that you want. And what you decide is not an “infraction”
I am not saying that her behavior is OK. She is being very demanding and insensitive of your pain. I am just saying I understand where she is coming from.
It is too bad you two can not work on the large quilt together. It might be more special then and you could get some help.
And I can totally understand where you would not want to do anything for a daughter that rips you apart all the time. It is soooo sad that this precious gift that you are giving has to have all the joy and fun of making it and giving it taken away because of the friction in the relationship. My eyes are watering and I am crying just thing about that.
I know exactly how your daughter feels when she says little things that have built up over the years.
This is exactly how I feel with my family.
Still I make an effort to pin down exactly what is bothering me and what I want from them.
In my case I know that there is a lot wrong with me.
There are things wrong with your daughter too. It is obvious that she is really hurting.
And it may not be obvious, but that kind of pain does effect the rest of your life.
I think a little bit of counseling might help a lot if she could open her mind to it.
Even if you did make a lot of changes, she would not notice and /or appreciate them because she is so stuck into a certain frame of mind and thinking about you. She it too defensive and hurt to think clearly.
So NO it is NOT all mother, and yes she needs to change too.
Gosh I know exactly about the picking apart every written message. I know exactly about wanting parents to think before they talk.
My father would write rambling 10 page notes to me and I swear I would have a different view on every sentence. He would go on and on about why he was right and why I was wrong and need to change everything about me. I asked him if he wanted me to reply and give my side of the story. But he really did not want this he just wanted me to accept his scribbled masterpiece as the holly gospel truth.
Your notes seem to be a little more innocent, but you still have the problem. Like I said your daughter is stuck in a certain way of responding. Somewhere she has learned to be VERY defensive and distrustful and that every encounter has to be a battle. It is impossible to have a good relationship when she brings that to every encounter.
I can under stand when she says that you have to think before talking. The problem is that you do not understand why what you are saying is bothering her. DO NOT GET DEFENSIVE. Really try and understand exactly why what you said bothers her. Do not laugh it off or say that she is being too sensitive. Really try and understand her point of view even if you do not agree at all. Ask a lot of questions to understand why what you said is bothering her. Do not explain away your remarks, take them back no matter how innocent they were and try again with new remarks.
I agree that a blanket forgiveness is not enough and is not going to work until all the issues are made clear. You daughter needs to do the work so that this can happen she can not expect you to just know these things.
I so wish that you to can improve your relationship.
Please other people give your opinions.
I do not know why I have written so much
Your situation just really touches me. And i can not talk like this to my own mother so it is nice to talk to you.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-14-2002).]
I hope someone else will give you their opinions.
Your quilt story is VERY interesting to me. I am the oldest too. I am not married either.
I am very jealous of my siblings who are getting married.
My sister has been given 8,000 for a car and 50,000 worth of land and my brother just given 100,000 in equity in a home. My father would not even take time to look with me at homes that I had wanted to buy.
I do feel absolutely terrible that I will never be married and never make my parents proud in this way. It adds to my feelings of failure. I give up hope and think what is the point of going on.
So given this, I can see that the quilt has a lot of emotional baggage tied to it. You may just see it as a nice gift or present. But to your daughter it probably means a whole lot more. It is tied to what she thinks of herself.
Still you have the right to inform her of your limitations and the right to give her any size present that you want. And what you decide is not an “infraction”
I am not saying that her behavior is OK. She is being very demanding and insensitive of your pain. I am just saying I understand where she is coming from.
It is too bad you two can not work on the large quilt together. It might be more special then and you could get some help.
And I can totally understand where you would not want to do anything for a daughter that rips you apart all the time. It is soooo sad that this precious gift that you are giving has to have all the joy and fun of making it and giving it taken away because of the friction in the relationship. My eyes are watering and I am crying just thing about that.
I know exactly how your daughter feels when she says little things that have built up over the years.
This is exactly how I feel with my family.
Still I make an effort to pin down exactly what is bothering me and what I want from them.
In my case I know that there is a lot wrong with me.
There are things wrong with your daughter too. It is obvious that she is really hurting.
And it may not be obvious, but that kind of pain does effect the rest of your life.
I think a little bit of counseling might help a lot if she could open her mind to it.
Even if you did make a lot of changes, she would not notice and /or appreciate them because she is so stuck into a certain frame of mind and thinking about you. She it too defensive and hurt to think clearly.
So NO it is NOT all mother, and yes she needs to change too.
Gosh I know exactly about the picking apart every written message. I know exactly about wanting parents to think before they talk.
My father would write rambling 10 page notes to me and I swear I would have a different view on every sentence. He would go on and on about why he was right and why I was wrong and need to change everything about me. I asked him if he wanted me to reply and give my side of the story. But he really did not want this he just wanted me to accept his scribbled masterpiece as the holly gospel truth.
Your notes seem to be a little more innocent, but you still have the problem. Like I said your daughter is stuck in a certain way of responding. Somewhere she has learned to be VERY defensive and distrustful and that every encounter has to be a battle. It is impossible to have a good relationship when she brings that to every encounter.
I can under stand when she says that you have to think before talking. The problem is that you do not understand why what you are saying is bothering her. DO NOT GET DEFENSIVE. Really try and understand exactly why what you said bothers her. Do not laugh it off or say that she is being too sensitive. Really try and understand her point of view even if you do not agree at all. Ask a lot of questions to understand why what you said is bothering her. Do not explain away your remarks, take them back no matter how innocent they were and try again with new remarks.
I agree that a blanket forgiveness is not enough and is not going to work until all the issues are made clear. You daughter needs to do the work so that this can happen she can not expect you to just know these things.
I so wish that you to can improve your relationship.
Please other people give your opinions.
I do not know why I have written so much
Your situation just really touches me. And i can not talk like this to my own mother so it is nice to talk to you.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-14-2002).]
Marie55
10-14-2002, 07:05 PM
I would like to share with you some of my thoughts. They may or may not be of any help to you. I cannot seem to remedy my own problems with my daughter but maybe a few words from a mother on the other side of the fence will allow you to gleam a new view.
First of all I wish to convey that it is not meant for everyone to marry and it is not a matter of pleasing your parents. It definitely is not a sign of failure. Every person born has a predestined destiny and place in God's world. There are many things He wants each to do and be a part of. Takes time to realize what God's plan is for us but He does have a plan. Not marrying is not a strike against anyone. Far better to remain single than to marry the wrong one and end up in divorce with little children to take care of. I love my children whether they are married or not.
At family gatherings the girls husbands seldom come, too busy playing with the boys. They don't even visit their own parents very often. Back in my day, husband and wife went everywhere together, not so these days. So, as you can see it is not unusual for a single family member to be at family gatherings alone, siblings come alone even tho they are married. This does not make a person less valuable just because they do not have a spouse. You are your parent's loved child single or married. Those of us who marry do not do so to please our parents, we married because that was what God had planned for us. "He" has plans for everyone and they are not the same things for everyone, we are individuals.
We did not have children to make our parents happy. We had children, finally, because God chose to bless us with little ones but it was not for our parents. In other words getting married and having children will not change your status with your parents.
We are first God's child and then our parent's child. Please think about this. Search for what God has for you in this life. Pleasing God is far more important than pleasing earthly parents. You should never feel it is hopeless and being jealous of siblings being married is not good for for you. Being married is not in God's plan for now. Might be later on, but you need to think about what God has planned for you now. A single person can, if they desire, put forth their energy to making life wonderful for themselves, it does not take a spouse, in fact sometimes a spouse can be a hindrance unless the two of you are perfectly matched (I am fortunate to have a perfectly matched spouse). Everyone must first love themselves and no one can make a person happy other than themselves. We need to find out what it is we want to do in this life, what we want to accomplish and go for it. We cannot depend on others to do it for us, it is up to us. I am sure you have heard the expression "self made man or self made woman", meaning they achieved where they are all by thier own doings and did not depend on others to get there. Happiness is first found within ourselves.
I truly believe the above is probably the main problem with our daughter. She has not reached the stage of accepting where she is at the moment and time in her life, and is using all kinds of excuses for her misery, striking out at her mother for one. This is probably why she could not come up with exactly what mother was doing or saying that was causing her grief. We both are strong willed individuals, probably too much alike and both become defensive. I appreciate your calling this to my attention, about not being defensive. Will have to work on this.
Financially we have been there for our daughter. Rent became so expensive she ended up borrowing on her 401K for downpayment for a nice house. Later she was fired and at that time the loan had to be paid back lump sum. We paid the loan back for her and she was to pay us back a little every month. Instead of doing this on a regular basis she bought expensive furniture on credit to replace what she had, spent money on other things instead of getting out of debt to us. We finally used my husband's IRA annual distribution money and divided it equally with the 5 children. By adding more to it our daughter's debt was paid in full and a son who owed us money due to finishing his PHD and an out of state move, cleared his debt and the others recieved equal amount of cash. No one recieved a penny more or penny less than another.
Being retired we really could not afford to do this but did so in order to help kids get out of debt and allow them to start anew. This year we also ended up buying the house another daughter is renting. Owners are elderly and needed to sell the property. They had never gone up on the rent and no way could our daughter rent an apt. for her family of 5 for same price rent. Her husband has never worked although he is educated and healthy. She took off work for 3 years to be with her children 5, 3, 10 months. I have no idea source of income for them other than her savings. We purchased the house, putting down 20% in order to get house payments as low as possible. Our daughter's rent is the house payment amount. We just had a new furnace put in at our expense. She cannot afford more. We have already told the executor of our estate to be sure the house goes to her so she will at least have a roof over her head.
This summer I had planned on replacing carpet downstairs but instead we helped our children. Carpet will have to wait, a fixed income does not stretch to cover all bases.
Only time will tell how our daughter bails out of feeling the way she does. I do hope and pray you will be able to rise above family situations and make a beautiful life for yourself.
I do not seem to be able to solve my own problems but I am available to talk with you any time. I do appreciate your open, honest opinion in regards to my problems. Seeing things from the other side of the fence helps.
Marie
First of all I wish to convey that it is not meant for everyone to marry and it is not a matter of pleasing your parents. It definitely is not a sign of failure. Every person born has a predestined destiny and place in God's world. There are many things He wants each to do and be a part of. Takes time to realize what God's plan is for us but He does have a plan. Not marrying is not a strike against anyone. Far better to remain single than to marry the wrong one and end up in divorce with little children to take care of. I love my children whether they are married or not.
At family gatherings the girls husbands seldom come, too busy playing with the boys. They don't even visit their own parents very often. Back in my day, husband and wife went everywhere together, not so these days. So, as you can see it is not unusual for a single family member to be at family gatherings alone, siblings come alone even tho they are married. This does not make a person less valuable just because they do not have a spouse. You are your parent's loved child single or married. Those of us who marry do not do so to please our parents, we married because that was what God had planned for us. "He" has plans for everyone and they are not the same things for everyone, we are individuals.
We did not have children to make our parents happy. We had children, finally, because God chose to bless us with little ones but it was not for our parents. In other words getting married and having children will not change your status with your parents.
We are first God's child and then our parent's child. Please think about this. Search for what God has for you in this life. Pleasing God is far more important than pleasing earthly parents. You should never feel it is hopeless and being jealous of siblings being married is not good for for you. Being married is not in God's plan for now. Might be later on, but you need to think about what God has planned for you now. A single person can, if they desire, put forth their energy to making life wonderful for themselves, it does not take a spouse, in fact sometimes a spouse can be a hindrance unless the two of you are perfectly matched (I am fortunate to have a perfectly matched spouse). Everyone must first love themselves and no one can make a person happy other than themselves. We need to find out what it is we want to do in this life, what we want to accomplish and go for it. We cannot depend on others to do it for us, it is up to us. I am sure you have heard the expression "self made man or self made woman", meaning they achieved where they are all by thier own doings and did not depend on others to get there. Happiness is first found within ourselves.
I truly believe the above is probably the main problem with our daughter. She has not reached the stage of accepting where she is at the moment and time in her life, and is using all kinds of excuses for her misery, striking out at her mother for one. This is probably why she could not come up with exactly what mother was doing or saying that was causing her grief. We both are strong willed individuals, probably too much alike and both become defensive. I appreciate your calling this to my attention, about not being defensive. Will have to work on this.
Financially we have been there for our daughter. Rent became so expensive she ended up borrowing on her 401K for downpayment for a nice house. Later she was fired and at that time the loan had to be paid back lump sum. We paid the loan back for her and she was to pay us back a little every month. Instead of doing this on a regular basis she bought expensive furniture on credit to replace what she had, spent money on other things instead of getting out of debt to us. We finally used my husband's IRA annual distribution money and divided it equally with the 5 children. By adding more to it our daughter's debt was paid in full and a son who owed us money due to finishing his PHD and an out of state move, cleared his debt and the others recieved equal amount of cash. No one recieved a penny more or penny less than another.
Being retired we really could not afford to do this but did so in order to help kids get out of debt and allow them to start anew. This year we also ended up buying the house another daughter is renting. Owners are elderly and needed to sell the property. They had never gone up on the rent and no way could our daughter rent an apt. for her family of 5 for same price rent. Her husband has never worked although he is educated and healthy. She took off work for 3 years to be with her children 5, 3, 10 months. I have no idea source of income for them other than her savings. We purchased the house, putting down 20% in order to get house payments as low as possible. Our daughter's rent is the house payment amount. We just had a new furnace put in at our expense. She cannot afford more. We have already told the executor of our estate to be sure the house goes to her so she will at least have a roof over her head.
This summer I had planned on replacing carpet downstairs but instead we helped our children. Carpet will have to wait, a fixed income does not stretch to cover all bases.
Only time will tell how our daughter bails out of feeling the way she does. I do hope and pray you will be able to rise above family situations and make a beautiful life for yourself.
I do not seem to be able to solve my own problems but I am available to talk with you any time. I do appreciate your open, honest opinion in regards to my problems. Seeing things from the other side of the fence helps.
Marie
nightowl2
10-18-2002, 07:02 PM
I was really intrigued by your letter.It is odd for me to see a reverse situation for me here on this board.
I have always wanted my mother and I to be close.I have tried to invite my mom places and to do things with her, but, it ends up with her saying that she can't, that she is always BUSY! I do talk with her on the phone and I have talked to her about these issues and about going to therapy with me(which she has agreed to, but, we haven't done it yet, not the right time for me.......)We have done some things together like take trips, and we do talk about family stories which I thoroughly enjoy.(I had asked a couple of my therapists what did I do wrong or why this was happening or if she will ever change into the "mom" that I hope for.My therapists always say to me that I will just have to be satisfied with what I have. My mom is my mom! You cannot change people.It is a very hard lesson for me.I feel that she gives more attention to my little brothers, that she is biased.
My mom told me that I am the type of person that seems like nothing ever bothers me and that when I was a little girl she said that I was independent in the way that I always wanted to do things by myself and she couldn't do things with me like she had hoped.(Maybe it's me or my a.d.d.)I feel bad that I was like this, maybe I hurt her feelings a lot.)I have often thought about this many times.I have wondered, you know?! I guess I am trying to make up for it.I really value her, not just as my mother,but, as a person, who had a life before I and my brothers came along.I want to see her as a PERSON, as well as the mom/dad she had to be for my brother and I.(My dad had depression, and so he had to live in hospitals most of my life)I know that what she went thru as a person/mom was really hard.I have told her that I think that she is a pretty strong person, and she replies that"well, that's the way it was, I had to do those things to make it.I didn't really have a choice.I had to figure it out for myself."
She is still a strong person to me, and I am still trying to make that special connection. Sometimes thru her interests I can grab her attention.
I was thinking that maybe therapy would help not only for my mom and I but, maybe, you and your daughter or maybe, you should give your daughter some space.You can't change people.It hurts, I know.Sometimes time is the best way for things to heal. People always tell me that and it is till hard to hear, but, I think that it is really true, and it does work miracles.Don't give up.But, maybe she will come around sooner than you think if you do what you need to do and she does what she needs to do. Think SPACE and TIME. (I am still working on it, and it IS helping me.)
Nightowl2
I have always wanted my mother and I to be close.I have tried to invite my mom places and to do things with her, but, it ends up with her saying that she can't, that she is always BUSY! I do talk with her on the phone and I have talked to her about these issues and about going to therapy with me(which she has agreed to, but, we haven't done it yet, not the right time for me.......)We have done some things together like take trips, and we do talk about family stories which I thoroughly enjoy.(I had asked a couple of my therapists what did I do wrong or why this was happening or if she will ever change into the "mom" that I hope for.My therapists always say to me that I will just have to be satisfied with what I have. My mom is my mom! You cannot change people.It is a very hard lesson for me.I feel that she gives more attention to my little brothers, that she is biased.
My mom told me that I am the type of person that seems like nothing ever bothers me and that when I was a little girl she said that I was independent in the way that I always wanted to do things by myself and she couldn't do things with me like she had hoped.(Maybe it's me or my a.d.d.)I feel bad that I was like this, maybe I hurt her feelings a lot.)I have often thought about this many times.I have wondered, you know?! I guess I am trying to make up for it.I really value her, not just as my mother,but, as a person, who had a life before I and my brothers came along.I want to see her as a PERSON, as well as the mom/dad she had to be for my brother and I.(My dad had depression, and so he had to live in hospitals most of my life)I know that what she went thru as a person/mom was really hard.I have told her that I think that she is a pretty strong person, and she replies that"well, that's the way it was, I had to do those things to make it.I didn't really have a choice.I had to figure it out for myself."
She is still a strong person to me, and I am still trying to make that special connection. Sometimes thru her interests I can grab her attention.
I was thinking that maybe therapy would help not only for my mom and I but, maybe, you and your daughter or maybe, you should give your daughter some space.You can't change people.It hurts, I know.Sometimes time is the best way for things to heal. People always tell me that and it is till hard to hear, but, I think that it is really true, and it does work miracles.Don't give up.But, maybe she will come around sooner than you think if you do what you need to do and she does what she needs to do. Think SPACE and TIME. (I am still working on it, and it IS helping me.)
Nightowl2
Marie55
10-21-2002, 10:45 PM
Nightowl 2, I have no idea what your age is, if so, perhaps my opinions would be different. This is a view from the other side of the fence. I have been seeking opinions from the other side of the fence in hopes of making my daughter and my relationship better. It helps to know what makes the younger and older tick, how they look at things.
First of all, your being independent and pushing your mother away when you were younger put a gap between the two of you that has not been bridged. Independence is wonderful for children but not at the expense of not wanting mom or dad or siblings to be close to you, sit next to you, do things with you at that stage of life on your timetable only. It hurts a parent to be pushed aside the same as it hurts a child to feel they have been pushed aside for whatever reason.
This gap makes it more difficult in later life to bond and get along doing things together. It may be that your mother feels too stressed when doing things with a child that has always distanced themselves from them. This works the opposite to. It is a two-way street.
I had a problem doing things with oldest daughter because she chose a time when I either had to prepare meals, do laundry, change diapers, baby's nap, chauffer kids, do errands for family needs. When I was free she was not interested. A mother cannot pickup and leave at drop of a hat, she has responsibility of all the family and we don't leave little ones at home alone and it costs money to hire a sitter plus how would you know the sitter was a safe sitter for your children. Other times when I went shopping with her she wanted me to buy this and buy that (caused shopping trips to be very stressful). Money was not available to do that since we had a large family trying to make ends meet. Yes, she had friends who's mother took them shopping and bought whatever they wanted. I could not financially do that. Her friends were usually the only child or only 2 children in the family and we had 5 children. Shopping trips were too stressful so I quit even trying to go. I had to stay glued together in order to take care of the family as a whole and not just one person in the family. It was not a reject of my daughter but a reject of being subjected to that much stress.
Your mom has gone thru a lot being both mom & dad during your life. Raising children and making a living for them is very stressful, exhausting at best, and more so when it is done alone. I doubt that your mother has the energy, steam or what it might be called to lift her foot to take another step at end of the day. The weight she carries on her shoulders is very heavy at best. Perhaps your mother felt since you were independent and self sufficient you would do just fine living your life with less needs from her, not less love but less material needs. Do you still live at home? If so, a helping hand around the house would be a wonderful way to start to bridge the gap, your mother could use help given/done with love, nothing expecting in return. It is a great way to work your way back into her life, not as a maid or servant but a loving daughter trying to lift some of the load from her mother's shoulders. A way of sharing true love.
It may seem your mother is giving more attention to your little brothers than she did you but in reality she is still struggling to raise children alone. Again, I do not know your age or age of brothers so what I say here may not apply if all are out of high school.
Lack of respect for a parent will drive a wedge between the two for sure. That is part of problem between my daughter and myself. Many times children resent authority figures and of course that means parent or parents, employers, etc. It carries over into adult life and hinders getting promotions, career advancements. It seems to show in one's attitude toward authority figures. The adult child becomes unhappy with where they are at various stages of life, especially when they are older and have not fullfilled their dreams or their dreams were not what God had in mind fo them, or they did not follow the right path to achieve their dreams. I believe this is when depression may come about, not sure, still learning about depression.
Please understand, there is not one perfect parent on earth and there is not one perfect child on earth. If you really knew what your friends parents were "really" like you would be appalled and know without a doubt you had/have better parents even tho there are some things you do not like about them. Remember, we can love and still not like everything about a person even if it is a parent or a child. Love from the heart, a forgiving heart will mend more fences than holding onto what we think the other person is doing or not doing. Too bad, we cannot crawl into the other person's head and see for ourselves how/what they are really thinking!!
There is so much about you and your situation that only you know, so, it is difficult for anyone to really hit the nail on the head as to the real problem between you and your mom. I can only give a little info from the other side of the fence in hopes you will be able to gleam something that will help you to re-evaluate your relationship with your mom. If you do not have family, you are really in the world all alone and no one else really cares about others the way family does.
I can say that when a parent or child picks every little thing said to pieces and turns everything into a negative it puts a road block in the relationship. Being overly sensitive is a handicap whether it is the parent or child. Wearing a chip on the shoulder, feeling you were not treated right while growing up may or may not be true. It is all in the eyes of the beholder whether it is 100% fact or not. When we dwell on things they become larger and larger and finally unsurmountable. Please look on the bright side and try to see the positive in everything others say and do, it will brighten your day, make life more pleasant and who knows your mom may soften to putty in your arms!!
My daugher does have space, she lives 3 hrs. away and lives her life the way she wants to (age 42). Comes home for special occassions only, her choice. Ends up getting mad at mom or a sibling and we never know what was said or done to create a rift. Before she went back home last weekend her dad, myself and she prayed together. She could never verbalize what she wanted me to do in order to change. She could not verbalize what I had done or not done during her life that made her so bitter.
On Thursday flowers were delivered to mom/dad from her with the following on card: Mark 5 versus 3-5. If you will look up those versus in the Bible and explain what she was trying to convey I would appreciate it. We read the versus but there seemed to be various angles she could be coming from. An explanation would be appreciated from someone on the other side of the fence.
God bless you and your relationship with your mom, both of you are very special.
Marie
First of all, your being independent and pushing your mother away when you were younger put a gap between the two of you that has not been bridged. Independence is wonderful for children but not at the expense of not wanting mom or dad or siblings to be close to you, sit next to you, do things with you at that stage of life on your timetable only. It hurts a parent to be pushed aside the same as it hurts a child to feel they have been pushed aside for whatever reason.
This gap makes it more difficult in later life to bond and get along doing things together. It may be that your mother feels too stressed when doing things with a child that has always distanced themselves from them. This works the opposite to. It is a two-way street.
I had a problem doing things with oldest daughter because she chose a time when I either had to prepare meals, do laundry, change diapers, baby's nap, chauffer kids, do errands for family needs. When I was free she was not interested. A mother cannot pickup and leave at drop of a hat, she has responsibility of all the family and we don't leave little ones at home alone and it costs money to hire a sitter plus how would you know the sitter was a safe sitter for your children. Other times when I went shopping with her she wanted me to buy this and buy that (caused shopping trips to be very stressful). Money was not available to do that since we had a large family trying to make ends meet. Yes, she had friends who's mother took them shopping and bought whatever they wanted. I could not financially do that. Her friends were usually the only child or only 2 children in the family and we had 5 children. Shopping trips were too stressful so I quit even trying to go. I had to stay glued together in order to take care of the family as a whole and not just one person in the family. It was not a reject of my daughter but a reject of being subjected to that much stress.
Your mom has gone thru a lot being both mom & dad during your life. Raising children and making a living for them is very stressful, exhausting at best, and more so when it is done alone. I doubt that your mother has the energy, steam or what it might be called to lift her foot to take another step at end of the day. The weight she carries on her shoulders is very heavy at best. Perhaps your mother felt since you were independent and self sufficient you would do just fine living your life with less needs from her, not less love but less material needs. Do you still live at home? If so, a helping hand around the house would be a wonderful way to start to bridge the gap, your mother could use help given/done with love, nothing expecting in return. It is a great way to work your way back into her life, not as a maid or servant but a loving daughter trying to lift some of the load from her mother's shoulders. A way of sharing true love.
It may seem your mother is giving more attention to your little brothers than she did you but in reality she is still struggling to raise children alone. Again, I do not know your age or age of brothers so what I say here may not apply if all are out of high school.
Lack of respect for a parent will drive a wedge between the two for sure. That is part of problem between my daughter and myself. Many times children resent authority figures and of course that means parent or parents, employers, etc. It carries over into adult life and hinders getting promotions, career advancements. It seems to show in one's attitude toward authority figures. The adult child becomes unhappy with where they are at various stages of life, especially when they are older and have not fullfilled their dreams or their dreams were not what God had in mind fo them, or they did not follow the right path to achieve their dreams. I believe this is when depression may come about, not sure, still learning about depression.
Please understand, there is not one perfect parent on earth and there is not one perfect child on earth. If you really knew what your friends parents were "really" like you would be appalled and know without a doubt you had/have better parents even tho there are some things you do not like about them. Remember, we can love and still not like everything about a person even if it is a parent or a child. Love from the heart, a forgiving heart will mend more fences than holding onto what we think the other person is doing or not doing. Too bad, we cannot crawl into the other person's head and see for ourselves how/what they are really thinking!!
There is so much about you and your situation that only you know, so, it is difficult for anyone to really hit the nail on the head as to the real problem between you and your mom. I can only give a little info from the other side of the fence in hopes you will be able to gleam something that will help you to re-evaluate your relationship with your mom. If you do not have family, you are really in the world all alone and no one else really cares about others the way family does.
I can say that when a parent or child picks every little thing said to pieces and turns everything into a negative it puts a road block in the relationship. Being overly sensitive is a handicap whether it is the parent or child. Wearing a chip on the shoulder, feeling you were not treated right while growing up may or may not be true. It is all in the eyes of the beholder whether it is 100% fact or not. When we dwell on things they become larger and larger and finally unsurmountable. Please look on the bright side and try to see the positive in everything others say and do, it will brighten your day, make life more pleasant and who knows your mom may soften to putty in your arms!!
My daugher does have space, she lives 3 hrs. away and lives her life the way she wants to (age 42). Comes home for special occassions only, her choice. Ends up getting mad at mom or a sibling and we never know what was said or done to create a rift. Before she went back home last weekend her dad, myself and she prayed together. She could never verbalize what she wanted me to do in order to change. She could not verbalize what I had done or not done during her life that made her so bitter.
On Thursday flowers were delivered to mom/dad from her with the following on card: Mark 5 versus 3-5. If you will look up those versus in the Bible and explain what she was trying to convey I would appreciate it. We read the versus but there seemed to be various angles she could be coming from. An explanation would be appreciated from someone on the other side of the fence.
God bless you and your relationship with your mom, both of you are very special.
Marie
lovelyme
10-23-2002, 05:43 PM
I am the daughter in the mother/daughter scenario and I have pulled away from my mom at times, but 99% of the time I am my mom's baby girl. I say things that hurt my mom sometimes and do not mean it, but can't say sorry. Your daughter might feel estranged, but I bet she loves you a lot. Does she have girls of her own. I have 2 at age 23 now and know now a lot of the heartbreak my mom went through. Of course mine are only 3 1/2 and 20 months, plus they do not dislike oneanother (well sometimes). I bet if you just left the topic alone for a while and only ever said nice things then she would slowly (don't expect an overnight success) turn towards you. I always wait for my mom to say the first thing and I think that helps, but I know I need to say it first sometimes too. I know that my mom making the first move in tough times makes me feel better. She also is always very sensitive and nurturing even at my adult age. I am the oldest too, but the differnce is that my second sibling did not arrive until I was 12 1/2 years old so I was ultimately an only child. My biggest problem is I tell her to do stuff too much and run her. I love my mom a lot and even had her in the room for the birth of my girls. My mom is 44 so close to your daughters age. Funny thing is is that she is the baby of the three girls my grandparents had and like you the oldest (age 60 now) was always like your daughter until the day my grandparents died even. Sadly I feel she now knows the heart ache with her own daughter (17 years old). That girl could make Jesus sob. So it may just come back to her too.
Marie55
10-23-2002, 07:20 PM
Thanks Lovelyme for your encouraging words. My daughter is single, never married. She had her chances I am sure but Mr. Right just did not round the corner or her head was turned when he did!!
I just wish my daugher was able to verbalize what it is that I say or do that upsets her so. If I do not know then how can I change if that is the problem. I really feel at this stage she is very unhappy with herself and where she is in life right now. Since she has always vented her frustrations on me, right or wrong, I am good to dump frustrations on for what others do or don't do. This time she was mad at her two sisters but took it out on me big time, not a mild rant but much more and then some. A mom can only hold up to so much before they break down, and I had reached that point. After many years of this going on I had to turn it all over to higher power but she has not been able to do so and let go and start a new page.
Since she does not have children she does not and will not realize what mothers go thru. She may never come to grips with the issues she allows to fester and create a gap between us but when she is ready my loving arms are open for her. She was an answer to prayer, I was childless for several years, told I would never be able to have children so you can imagine how blessed we felt when she arrived and then 4 others later.
I never bring up the topic, I just get slam dunked with vented frustrations accusing me of this that or the other that I know nothing about. Only a few visits does she behave like a normal person and not rant and rave about something. Last Christmas she stormed out of the house and went to a hotel because I was walking the treadmill to bring bloodsugar back down after Christmas eve dinner (I am diabetic, control diet/exercise only). I reminded everyone before we got home I would have to walk the treadmill. She chose to sleep in room where treadmill was instead of in a private bedroom with new beds. She did not like the new beds. She accused me of walking to just keep her awake, too much light (used adjacent room light to view treadmill, said I did not have to walk that long. I walked 2 miles. There was no consideration for my health and there were other rooms to sleep in. I find myself in a catch 22,.....if I do and .....if I don't.
I keep hoping things will change but this has been going on for 32 years. Escalating instead of descending.
I came to these boards in hopes of getting views from others of the younger generation which migh help me to better understand the situation. Appreciate everyone's help, food for thought.
Please, since you know you treat your mother the way you do part of the time, do try to learn to say "sorry" and really mean it. It does nothing but lift you up in your own eyes and eyes of your mother. Please do not continue doing anything to create a gap between the two of you, life is short and too precious.
Marie
I just wish my daugher was able to verbalize what it is that I say or do that upsets her so. If I do not know then how can I change if that is the problem. I really feel at this stage she is very unhappy with herself and where she is in life right now. Since she has always vented her frustrations on me, right or wrong, I am good to dump frustrations on for what others do or don't do. This time she was mad at her two sisters but took it out on me big time, not a mild rant but much more and then some. A mom can only hold up to so much before they break down, and I had reached that point. After many years of this going on I had to turn it all over to higher power but she has not been able to do so and let go and start a new page.
Since she does not have children she does not and will not realize what mothers go thru. She may never come to grips with the issues she allows to fester and create a gap between us but when she is ready my loving arms are open for her. She was an answer to prayer, I was childless for several years, told I would never be able to have children so you can imagine how blessed we felt when she arrived and then 4 others later.
I never bring up the topic, I just get slam dunked with vented frustrations accusing me of this that or the other that I know nothing about. Only a few visits does she behave like a normal person and not rant and rave about something. Last Christmas she stormed out of the house and went to a hotel because I was walking the treadmill to bring bloodsugar back down after Christmas eve dinner (I am diabetic, control diet/exercise only). I reminded everyone before we got home I would have to walk the treadmill. She chose to sleep in room where treadmill was instead of in a private bedroom with new beds. She did not like the new beds. She accused me of walking to just keep her awake, too much light (used adjacent room light to view treadmill, said I did not have to walk that long. I walked 2 miles. There was no consideration for my health and there were other rooms to sleep in. I find myself in a catch 22,.....if I do and .....if I don't.
I keep hoping things will change but this has been going on for 32 years. Escalating instead of descending.
I came to these boards in hopes of getting views from others of the younger generation which migh help me to better understand the situation. Appreciate everyone's help, food for thought.
Please, since you know you treat your mother the way you do part of the time, do try to learn to say "sorry" and really mean it. It does nothing but lift you up in your own eyes and eyes of your mother. Please do not continue doing anything to create a gap between the two of you, life is short and too precious.
Marie
lovelyme
10-24-2002, 03:01 PM
Oh no see we have no gaps thank God and our arguements are usually just typical things, but it sounds like your daughter is VERY self centered I am sorry to say. I know it would hurt, but I think you should use tough love and as the old saying goes if you have nothing nice to say then we shouldn't talk until you do is what I would tell her. How petty to sleep in the room she knew you would be treadmilling in. She is not some princess in your house and you need to voice that. Sadly she might need to hear, "If you don't like it, there is the door". You are queen bee!! She may be 42, but rushing out of the house over that issue is childish and elementary and a cry for you to come running after her. So don't. Be strong and just tell her that you are there to listen about problems and such in her life, but if it is going to be dirogatory in anyway to me then count me out. She isn't too old to learn from her mom! I am 23 and still open to learning lessons from my mom.
------------------
Marie
------------------
Marie
ffsmith
10-26-2002, 03:35 PM
Wow you really made that incident over the treadmill into to a mountain. Both of you.
The whole thing sounds silly to me.
If it were me, I would never go to a hotel or complained about it at all. I would have put a pillow over my head or went to the other rooms. But your daughter made a big deal about it. That is her problem.
But your diabetes and thinking of your health and all the other stuff has nothing to do with anything. She acted selfishly, misinterpreted you intentions very badly, and left.
You make it sound like she wanted you to go into a diabetic coma or something, never exercise again and die in poor health. Maybe not that far but you have built it up into something it is not.
For all you know she may also have the attitude that ‘as soon as my mother is ready to come to grips with the issues between us (like the treadmill incident?) my loving arms are open for her’
So you both have your arms open but you are waiting for the other one to change. This posture might make you feel better but it will not change the relationship. In fact it hurts, because you both take the high road and put the burden on the other person.
She may not realize what mothers go through, but that is not really that big of a deal because you will never fully realize what she goes through. Just like none of us truly knows what another person goes through.
My father has been hoping that things (which means just ME) will change for the past 10-12 years (he say he prays that I will change too). I find his hope very offensive and depressing to me. I do not want anything to do with a person who is so un-accepting, and un-understanding and selfish. I wish he would just take a gun and kill me and adopt a son who is more like what he is praying for.
I do know that it is very hard on me that my father is able to have a better relationship with his other children and his young employees than with me. Even if it is my fault that the relationship is bad (and it partially is I am sure) it still hurts that it is bad.
My father also has the attitude that I am not normal and do not behave like a normal person just like you expressed Marie55. I believe him and I see myself as very inferior and defective. I hurt a lot when he says that and takes that position.
My father has never been or said he was sorry to me in my life. I too find it nearly impossible to say that I am sorry even when I am sorry and I know I was wrong. And this ties into lovelyme’s comment about learning from her mom. In order to have proper learning, there needs to be a trust and good relationship to build on. This is also necessary to express intimate feelings like being sorry. If that relationship is not there, it is nearly impossible to learn from a parent. I know that there are many things that I could learn from my father. Lessons and knowledge that I will never learn and I will be defective for the rest of my life. But I can not learn from person that I do not trust. I do not think that bond is quite there for Marie55 and her daughter. (Not yet).
Marie55 you are right that there needs to be a better verbalization of what your daughter wants from you, how she feels, and what is upsetting her. This can be hard to do but I think she needs to try and do it. Ask her to get some help in sorting out her feelings and putting them down on paper. She can do this for herself, but it seems to also be of interest to you (understandably) so she can do it just for you if she wishes (as a favor to you).
I would be very interested to know how she views the treadmill incident. Does she see it as a big deal? Does she still blame you for it today? Is she sorry about it? Does she see it as part of that festering gap between you? Does she see it a typical behavior on your part?
Again I think she acted very badly then, but it seems that you are both in a pattern where any interaction between you is going to turn out badly and add to the gap. Like you said things are getting worse not better.
I am not sure if the lack of verbalization is the problem though. It sounds to me that she verbalized very clearly many frustrations with you and your actions. You say yourself that she rips you apart all the time. She takes frustrations out on you all the time. She was very clear about the treadmill. She believed that you were trying to keep her awake and thus make her feel uncomfortable.
Just because you see it COMPLETELY differently does not mean that she did not verbalize clearly. Maybe she is unreasonable, does twist the truth, and misinterprets you intentions very badly, but that is no reason to ignore what she is saying to you and instead come back with a number of reasons defending your actions, and your point of view.
She did not like the new beds. Gosh could you put a blanket or a comforter or something on them to make them better for her? Could you let her take control and change the bed or the room in some way to make herself more comfortable? Could you use a lantern light to run on the treadmill? I know I sound silly. But my point is some thing besides just defending your actions and dismissing her feeling as "wrong" or "crazy".
She verbalizes and you verbalize but no one really listens or does anything but hope for change.
Well that is enough rambling for now. Again this is JUST MY OPINION.
Please do not get mad at me.
I do not know the full story. And I am not an expert.
I know I am being a little hard on you and a little unfair to you and I am sorry for that. I blame my own bad relationship with my parents.
I do feel bad for you and realize that you are a good mother and did do your best for your children.
I also realize your daughter does have her own problems and is responsible for a good deal of the problems in your troubled relationship.
I bet you might think that I just picked apart every thing that you just said just like your daughter does. Again you are probably right. I probably misinterpreted what you said too. If so, do not defend yourself (in your mind), but try and see why I would make such a mistake, why I got it wrong, why was the communication not what you expected?
Still wishing you the best
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-26-2002).]
The whole thing sounds silly to me.
If it were me, I would never go to a hotel or complained about it at all. I would have put a pillow over my head or went to the other rooms. But your daughter made a big deal about it. That is her problem.
But your diabetes and thinking of your health and all the other stuff has nothing to do with anything. She acted selfishly, misinterpreted you intentions very badly, and left.
You make it sound like she wanted you to go into a diabetic coma or something, never exercise again and die in poor health. Maybe not that far but you have built it up into something it is not.
For all you know she may also have the attitude that ‘as soon as my mother is ready to come to grips with the issues between us (like the treadmill incident?) my loving arms are open for her’
So you both have your arms open but you are waiting for the other one to change. This posture might make you feel better but it will not change the relationship. In fact it hurts, because you both take the high road and put the burden on the other person.
She may not realize what mothers go through, but that is not really that big of a deal because you will never fully realize what she goes through. Just like none of us truly knows what another person goes through.
My father has been hoping that things (which means just ME) will change for the past 10-12 years (he say he prays that I will change too). I find his hope very offensive and depressing to me. I do not want anything to do with a person who is so un-accepting, and un-understanding and selfish. I wish he would just take a gun and kill me and adopt a son who is more like what he is praying for.
I do know that it is very hard on me that my father is able to have a better relationship with his other children and his young employees than with me. Even if it is my fault that the relationship is bad (and it partially is I am sure) it still hurts that it is bad.
My father also has the attitude that I am not normal and do not behave like a normal person just like you expressed Marie55. I believe him and I see myself as very inferior and defective. I hurt a lot when he says that and takes that position.
My father has never been or said he was sorry to me in my life. I too find it nearly impossible to say that I am sorry even when I am sorry and I know I was wrong. And this ties into lovelyme’s comment about learning from her mom. In order to have proper learning, there needs to be a trust and good relationship to build on. This is also necessary to express intimate feelings like being sorry. If that relationship is not there, it is nearly impossible to learn from a parent. I know that there are many things that I could learn from my father. Lessons and knowledge that I will never learn and I will be defective for the rest of my life. But I can not learn from person that I do not trust. I do not think that bond is quite there for Marie55 and her daughter. (Not yet).
Marie55 you are right that there needs to be a better verbalization of what your daughter wants from you, how she feels, and what is upsetting her. This can be hard to do but I think she needs to try and do it. Ask her to get some help in sorting out her feelings and putting them down on paper. She can do this for herself, but it seems to also be of interest to you (understandably) so she can do it just for you if she wishes (as a favor to you).
I would be very interested to know how she views the treadmill incident. Does she see it as a big deal? Does she still blame you for it today? Is she sorry about it? Does she see it as part of that festering gap between you? Does she see it a typical behavior on your part?
Again I think she acted very badly then, but it seems that you are both in a pattern where any interaction between you is going to turn out badly and add to the gap. Like you said things are getting worse not better.
I am not sure if the lack of verbalization is the problem though. It sounds to me that she verbalized very clearly many frustrations with you and your actions. You say yourself that she rips you apart all the time. She takes frustrations out on you all the time. She was very clear about the treadmill. She believed that you were trying to keep her awake and thus make her feel uncomfortable.
Just because you see it COMPLETELY differently does not mean that she did not verbalize clearly. Maybe she is unreasonable, does twist the truth, and misinterprets you intentions very badly, but that is no reason to ignore what she is saying to you and instead come back with a number of reasons defending your actions, and your point of view.
She did not like the new beds. Gosh could you put a blanket or a comforter or something on them to make them better for her? Could you let her take control and change the bed or the room in some way to make herself more comfortable? Could you use a lantern light to run on the treadmill? I know I sound silly. But my point is some thing besides just defending your actions and dismissing her feeling as "wrong" or "crazy".
She verbalizes and you verbalize but no one really listens or does anything but hope for change.
Well that is enough rambling for now. Again this is JUST MY OPINION.
Please do not get mad at me.
I do not know the full story. And I am not an expert.
I know I am being a little hard on you and a little unfair to you and I am sorry for that. I blame my own bad relationship with my parents.
I do feel bad for you and realize that you are a good mother and did do your best for your children.
I also realize your daughter does have her own problems and is responsible for a good deal of the problems in your troubled relationship.
I bet you might think that I just picked apart every thing that you just said just like your daughter does. Again you are probably right. I probably misinterpreted what you said too. If so, do not defend yourself (in your mind), but try and see why I would make such a mistake, why I got it wrong, why was the communication not what you expected?
Still wishing you the best
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-26-2002).]
Marie55
10-27-2002, 07:37 PM
Yes, the treadmill incident was a molehill made into a mountain. You see, I am not on meds for diabetes and walking is my only method of lowering a too high blood sugar level. If blood sugar level remains high then damage to the body occurs. This is not an excuse on my part, but reality, and is treated the same as another person swallowing a pill to take care of a health problem. The light was a night light in next room, split level house. You are right it was silly, but that was really not the issue I am sure but was used.
The beds had been altered to make them more comfortable for this visit but it was not enough. We now have foam mattresses plus egg crates on top for extra softness but they are still not good enough. They are not like the expensive mattress our daughter bought for herself.
We bought new mattresses orginally because she did not like the ones we had before. How many times must we change mattresses?
I am not waiting for my daughter to change but I am seeking help from others on other side of the fence so I can make changes I need to make, only my daughter can make any changes she desires to change.
No, I am not mad at you. I want honest opinions from others in order to help me resolve the conflict.
A few days after our daughter returned home a florist arrived at our door with flowers from her to Mom & Dad and on the card was Romans V 3-5. Please check your Bible and interpert these scriptures from your perspective. Four people have read the scriptures and no one is sure of what message our daughter is sending. The scriptures can come from more than one angle. I would appreciate interpertation from those on the other side of the fence.
Marie
The beds had been altered to make them more comfortable for this visit but it was not enough. We now have foam mattresses plus egg crates on top for extra softness but they are still not good enough. They are not like the expensive mattress our daughter bought for herself.
We bought new mattresses orginally because she did not like the ones we had before. How many times must we change mattresses?
I am not waiting for my daughter to change but I am seeking help from others on other side of the fence so I can make changes I need to make, only my daughter can make any changes she desires to change.
No, I am not mad at you. I want honest opinions from others in order to help me resolve the conflict.
A few days after our daughter returned home a florist arrived at our door with flowers from her to Mom & Dad and on the card was Romans V 3-5. Please check your Bible and interpert these scriptures from your perspective. Four people have read the scriptures and no one is sure of what message our daughter is sending. The scriptures can come from more than one angle. I would appreciate interpertation from those on the other side of the fence.
Marie
ffsmith
10-27-2002, 09:18 PM
You are kind of missing the point.
I understand that the reality is that you had to exercise for your health.
What you did is ok, totally right and healthy.
You are right you daughter acted so badly that she might as well be getting mad at you for taking a pill or medicine. …I agree it is nuts and frustrating…
But
The way you reacted to the odd thing that your daughter did could have been better or at least re-framed. Your automatic thought that she is not considerate of your health may be true, but it seems to me to be a little unreasonable.
People just do not consider other people heath at all times and in every action that they take. You might say that you informed everyone before hand and she should know about it. Still it is not going to be the first thing on her mind. And I think that is normal.
I might be wrong… but it seems like you think this and you paint her in a much worse light and make a bad situation worse. Or maybe you think that she is deliberately trying to make you ill? You end up taking a position that turns the bad incident into part of that festering gap for both of you. You take your standard position that she is totally selfish and inconsiderate.
Maybe if you would look at it differently it would just be a strange unpleasant occurrence instead of another block in the wall between you. This is a BIG maybe because she would have to come half way.
The mattress thing is funny too. She sounds a little like my sister. Nothing was ever good enough for her either. She could find a flaw with anything too. I would be more frustrated than you are. If it were me I would tell her to get out the minute she said she did not like the first mattresses. Is it that there is only one mattress in the world that is good enough for this princess??
My brother would take his mattress down 14 stairs and put it into his van when he was dating…. But that was for a whole different reason if you know what I mean.
It seems like the only way she MIGHT be happy is if she makes the bed herself? Of course if she picks a mattress that costs more then a car and expects you to pay for it then that will not work either…. I feel for you.
I am very happy you are not mad at me. Makes me think I might not be a total loser.
I will look at the verse right now. Is it MARK 5:3-5 or Romans 5:3-5?
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-27-2002).]
I understand that the reality is that you had to exercise for your health.
What you did is ok, totally right and healthy.
You are right you daughter acted so badly that she might as well be getting mad at you for taking a pill or medicine. …I agree it is nuts and frustrating…
But
The way you reacted to the odd thing that your daughter did could have been better or at least re-framed. Your automatic thought that she is not considerate of your health may be true, but it seems to me to be a little unreasonable.
People just do not consider other people heath at all times and in every action that they take. You might say that you informed everyone before hand and she should know about it. Still it is not going to be the first thing on her mind. And I think that is normal.
I might be wrong… but it seems like you think this and you paint her in a much worse light and make a bad situation worse. Or maybe you think that she is deliberately trying to make you ill? You end up taking a position that turns the bad incident into part of that festering gap for both of you. You take your standard position that she is totally selfish and inconsiderate.
Maybe if you would look at it differently it would just be a strange unpleasant occurrence instead of another block in the wall between you. This is a BIG maybe because she would have to come half way.
The mattress thing is funny too. She sounds a little like my sister. Nothing was ever good enough for her either. She could find a flaw with anything too. I would be more frustrated than you are. If it were me I would tell her to get out the minute she said she did not like the first mattresses. Is it that there is only one mattress in the world that is good enough for this princess??
My brother would take his mattress down 14 stairs and put it into his van when he was dating…. But that was for a whole different reason if you know what I mean.
It seems like the only way she MIGHT be happy is if she makes the bed herself? Of course if she picks a mattress that costs more then a car and expects you to pay for it then that will not work either…. I feel for you.
I am very happy you are not mad at me. Makes me think I might not be a total loser.
I will look at the verse right now. Is it MARK 5:3-5 or Romans 5:3-5?
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-27-2002).]
ffsmith
10-27-2002, 10:52 PM
Romans 5:3-5
“More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that sufferings produces endurance and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holly Spirit which has been given to us.”
I like that passage.
I would focus on the word HOPE.
I do not know if she thinks that you have suffered or she has suffered.
In my view you both are suffering.
She probably thinks that she has suffered, and has needed endurance and character, which she is finding in her religion. And I think this is all true.
Do not get upset if she is saying that she has suffered at your hands.
The flowers are a good -VERY GOOD gesture. So lets not turn it bad
Could you say something like this…?
“I have gone over the passage you indicated many times (which is true).
I want to get this right and understand your feelings as best I can.
So I am not going to jump to conclusions and would like to discuss the passage more with you.
My initial thoughts are that you have felt suffering a lot in your life. I know that there have been many times when you are hurting and I have not comforted you. Even though this thought brings me sorrow, I do find solace and joy in the thought that good things can abound from this suffering like the character and hope the scriptures speak of.
I also think of my own suffering. Our some time’s stormy relationship causes me a great deal of suffering as I assume it does for you too. Not because of you, but because I would like things to be different and better between us. I am striving to gain endurance, character and hope from my suffering.
My feelings are that you chose a very hopeful and appropriate passage and I would like to discuss it more with you.
Thank you very much for the flowers, I enjoyed them greatly.”
Write it in a thank you letter if you do not want to say it
Best of luck
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-28-2002).]
“More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that sufferings produces endurance and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holly Spirit which has been given to us.”
I like that passage.
I would focus on the word HOPE.
I do not know if she thinks that you have suffered or she has suffered.
In my view you both are suffering.
She probably thinks that she has suffered, and has needed endurance and character, which she is finding in her religion. And I think this is all true.
Do not get upset if she is saying that she has suffered at your hands.
The flowers are a good -VERY GOOD gesture. So lets not turn it bad
Could you say something like this…?
“I have gone over the passage you indicated many times (which is true).
I want to get this right and understand your feelings as best I can.
So I am not going to jump to conclusions and would like to discuss the passage more with you.
My initial thoughts are that you have felt suffering a lot in your life. I know that there have been many times when you are hurting and I have not comforted you. Even though this thought brings me sorrow, I do find solace and joy in the thought that good things can abound from this suffering like the character and hope the scriptures speak of.
I also think of my own suffering. Our some time’s stormy relationship causes me a great deal of suffering as I assume it does for you too. Not because of you, but because I would like things to be different and better between us. I am striving to gain endurance, character and hope from my suffering.
My feelings are that you chose a very hopeful and appropriate passage and I would like to discuss it more with you.
Thank you very much for the flowers, I enjoyed them greatly.”
Write it in a thank you letter if you do not want to say it
Best of luck
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 10-28-2002).]
Marie55
10-28-2002, 01:23 PM
Thanks for your interpertation. I have no problem saying something like you suggested but the timing and mood would have to be right to prevent a lurch into another rip mom apart session, if you know what I mean. We verbally thanked her for the flowers over phone and when in person will take it from there.
Thanks for being the person on other side of the fence, it is a great help!
Marie
Thanks for being the person on other side of the fence, it is a great help!
Marie
lovelyme
10-28-2002, 02:01 PM
I kind of disagree. It sounds like her daughter has selective hearing and di not care to take into consideration her mother's health and flat out said I want to sleep in here and my mom should ditch HER excercise session to let me nap. When your 42 you don't need a nap anyway and if you want to lye down in your mother's home then you do not complain about the mattress comfort! It does sound like a big to do, but this is symbolic of her daughter's behavior all the time it seems. She is always centering all situations around herself. She can't see beyond her own feelings to see that she is hurting others. I am sure there are 2 sides to the story, but C'mon. Life is too short this is nonsense!
ffsmith
10-29-2002, 12:40 PM
Hi Lovelyme I agree with every thing you said.
The daughter is selfish and does center things on herself.
And one way to go is to say that life is too short for this nonsense.
If Marie55 decides that it is not worth it and that it is just too painful to have her daughter in her life,
Than I would recommend cutting off the sit down discussion and all interaction as it is just is not healthy.
This is what my parent and I have done.
It does relieve a lot of tension and does get rid of a lot of hurt feelings emotionally charged incidents.
But then there is the sorrow of no longer being part of a family for me.
And I would think the sorrow of the parent loosing a child.
And it never changes the past
There is no doubt that Marie55 has to put a lot of effort into this daughter, where her relationship with the other daughters seems to be much easier.
And Marie55 can not make the relationship better by herself. The daughter needs to come halfway and needs to get help for the things that you mentioned about her.
The daughter may act selfish a lot or most of the time, but I do not think she does it all the time. I think she is hurting and does not deal with it well.
The biggest problem I see is that the daughter and mother are in a painful rut in the way they interact.
The daughter is classified as always having self-centered motives and being a mean ungrateful person.
I am sure the daughter classifies the mother as maybe dismissive and uncaring and out to blame her.
It does not matter who is right or wrong or what is the actual truth.
When two people interact with their fingers on their emotional “triggers” in this way bad things are going to happen. And because emotions are involved these things are going to be silly and not make sense, just like the treadmill incident.
Well I said too much
I envy the relationship you have with your mother.
And Marie55 I wish you could talk with your daughter with a therapist present if you are worried about being ripped apart again. You two can not seem to interact well together alone so it just makes since to try to get some help. Call around and see if you can set 1-2 session up. It might get things started in the right direction? Or they may tell you it is never going to work?
The daughter is selfish and does center things on herself.
And one way to go is to say that life is too short for this nonsense.
If Marie55 decides that it is not worth it and that it is just too painful to have her daughter in her life,
Than I would recommend cutting off the sit down discussion and all interaction as it is just is not healthy.
This is what my parent and I have done.
It does relieve a lot of tension and does get rid of a lot of hurt feelings emotionally charged incidents.
But then there is the sorrow of no longer being part of a family for me.
And I would think the sorrow of the parent loosing a child.
And it never changes the past
There is no doubt that Marie55 has to put a lot of effort into this daughter, where her relationship with the other daughters seems to be much easier.
And Marie55 can not make the relationship better by herself. The daughter needs to come halfway and needs to get help for the things that you mentioned about her.
The daughter may act selfish a lot or most of the time, but I do not think she does it all the time. I think she is hurting and does not deal with it well.
The biggest problem I see is that the daughter and mother are in a painful rut in the way they interact.
The daughter is classified as always having self-centered motives and being a mean ungrateful person.
I am sure the daughter classifies the mother as maybe dismissive and uncaring and out to blame her.
It does not matter who is right or wrong or what is the actual truth.
When two people interact with their fingers on their emotional “triggers” in this way bad things are going to happen. And because emotions are involved these things are going to be silly and not make sense, just like the treadmill incident.
Well I said too much
I envy the relationship you have with your mother.
And Marie55 I wish you could talk with your daughter with a therapist present if you are worried about being ripped apart again. You two can not seem to interact well together alone so it just makes since to try to get some help. Call around and see if you can set 1-2 session up. It might get things started in the right direction? Or they may tell you it is never going to work?
*SoccerMom*
11-04-2002, 12:18 PM
Hi Marie55,
I read your story and the replies with great interest. It is so amazing to me that children can be reared in the same homes with the same parents under the same conditions and turn out so differently. I have 5 siblings (I am the youngest). I must admit that throughout my lifetime I have felt some of the same things that your daughter has felt. However, through some tough times (I call those TRUE life lessons!) I have a total different outlook on my parents and my siblings.
My oldest sister tends to behave a lot like your daughter. She had a great burden when she was growing up ( I think that Mom mellowed out a lot before she got to me but my oldest sister had to help a lot with household chores and with caring for all of us children.) She was 13 when I was born, and my grandmother with alzheimers came to live with us about the same time. I know that made it difficult on Mom and also on my older sisters who were taking care of a lot of things that Mom usually did. My grandmother died when I was 8 but by then, my oldest sister was married.
I remember helping Mom take care of my nephews and nieces for my oldest 2 sisters all the time. Mom daily fixed meals for them to carry home plates, we bought gifts galore for those children.......Christmas was like a toystore at our house. Financially, Mom and Dad were better off by the time I was a teen. There was a lot of resentment about what my parents bought for me (jewelry, clothing or whatever) that they were not able to do. Keep in mind, I was there when money was also being spent on the nieces and nephews, money was handed over to my siblings to help during tough times (food or bills). I had a hard time in my late teens and early 20's dealing with the "spoiled baby" term. It seemed that my oldest sister what the main one that always tried to create total chaos.
I had some hard times and moved home (8 months pregnant). I didn't know what to do. When I came home to live, I realized that things were not so peachy at home. Mom and Dad were having some financial burdens and I stayed there for about 3 years until things seemed better. They were a huge help to me with my son but more importantly, I think I helped them too. My mom and dad were no longer able to dish out the expensive gifts for grandchildren (now there are 17!). My parents health began to fail.....seriously. At several points, she required total care as she was bedridden for about a 1 1/2 total. It was hard on me ( I had a home business, 2 small children ages 1 and 2) but I promised Mom that I would always take care of her like she did for me. The saddest thing is that there was only one of my siblings that was willing to help me. It was difficult because Mom was not "herself". The meds made her violent, mean and cruel, cursing and screaming!!!! Wow..I was hard. I know of two incidents when I called my two oldest sisters in tears begging for them to come sit with mom so I could take a couple hours break ( a long bath and a walk or something). Neither would come ---we all live in a 45 min. radius! My oldest sister actually told me that it was time that I did something for mom since I had "mooched off of them for so long!" I could not believe it.
I think I could relate this mess to your problem. I know that sibling rivalry plays a huge part in how we feel about our parents. Sometimes I still get disqusted that my mom makes excuses for my sisters' behavior. She is allowed to say or do whatever she wants and then puts mom on a guilt trip. She ruins any family function that we have----embarrasses us at reunions. It is like she has to have her way or she will insult and whine until the day is ruined. I had a surprise party for Mom and she came in and announced to everyone that she was glad that I did something for a change! She also told a few guests that since I "keep having so many children for MOM to take care of, she refuses to even learn their names!!!!!!" < I have 3 and she has 4!!! By the time I had my two babies, mom was unable to help with the children. MOM is the one that has to be cared for since she is in poor health and is unable to drive!> It is crazy stuff like that that I NOW just laugh off, say a prayer that one day we will all get along and give mom and dad a hug and say I am so blessed to have them! :)
I don't have a cure or treatment for the problem but it is so sad that it just becomes a nasty circle (she passed this same attitude onto 2 of my nieces who think that the world is always out to get them and that they try to hurt others in the same ugly way that the1r mom does.)
God Bless you and keep up those prayers!
*I apologize for this Majorly, LONG post!*
I read your story and the replies with great interest. It is so amazing to me that children can be reared in the same homes with the same parents under the same conditions and turn out so differently. I have 5 siblings (I am the youngest). I must admit that throughout my lifetime I have felt some of the same things that your daughter has felt. However, through some tough times (I call those TRUE life lessons!) I have a total different outlook on my parents and my siblings.
My oldest sister tends to behave a lot like your daughter. She had a great burden when she was growing up ( I think that Mom mellowed out a lot before she got to me but my oldest sister had to help a lot with household chores and with caring for all of us children.) She was 13 when I was born, and my grandmother with alzheimers came to live with us about the same time. I know that made it difficult on Mom and also on my older sisters who were taking care of a lot of things that Mom usually did. My grandmother died when I was 8 but by then, my oldest sister was married.
I remember helping Mom take care of my nephews and nieces for my oldest 2 sisters all the time. Mom daily fixed meals for them to carry home plates, we bought gifts galore for those children.......Christmas was like a toystore at our house. Financially, Mom and Dad were better off by the time I was a teen. There was a lot of resentment about what my parents bought for me (jewelry, clothing or whatever) that they were not able to do. Keep in mind, I was there when money was also being spent on the nieces and nephews, money was handed over to my siblings to help during tough times (food or bills). I had a hard time in my late teens and early 20's dealing with the "spoiled baby" term. It seemed that my oldest sister what the main one that always tried to create total chaos.
I had some hard times and moved home (8 months pregnant). I didn't know what to do. When I came home to live, I realized that things were not so peachy at home. Mom and Dad were having some financial burdens and I stayed there for about 3 years until things seemed better. They were a huge help to me with my son but more importantly, I think I helped them too. My mom and dad were no longer able to dish out the expensive gifts for grandchildren (now there are 17!). My parents health began to fail.....seriously. At several points, she required total care as she was bedridden for about a 1 1/2 total. It was hard on me ( I had a home business, 2 small children ages 1 and 2) but I promised Mom that I would always take care of her like she did for me. The saddest thing is that there was only one of my siblings that was willing to help me. It was difficult because Mom was not "herself". The meds made her violent, mean and cruel, cursing and screaming!!!! Wow..I was hard. I know of two incidents when I called my two oldest sisters in tears begging for them to come sit with mom so I could take a couple hours break ( a long bath and a walk or something). Neither would come ---we all live in a 45 min. radius! My oldest sister actually told me that it was time that I did something for mom since I had "mooched off of them for so long!" I could not believe it.
I think I could relate this mess to your problem. I know that sibling rivalry plays a huge part in how we feel about our parents. Sometimes I still get disqusted that my mom makes excuses for my sisters' behavior. She is allowed to say or do whatever she wants and then puts mom on a guilt trip. She ruins any family function that we have----embarrasses us at reunions. It is like she has to have her way or she will insult and whine until the day is ruined. I had a surprise party for Mom and she came in and announced to everyone that she was glad that I did something for a change! She also told a few guests that since I "keep having so many children for MOM to take care of, she refuses to even learn their names!!!!!!" < I have 3 and she has 4!!! By the time I had my two babies, mom was unable to help with the children. MOM is the one that has to be cared for since she is in poor health and is unable to drive!> It is crazy stuff like that that I NOW just laugh off, say a prayer that one day we will all get along and give mom and dad a hug and say I am so blessed to have them! :)
I don't have a cure or treatment for the problem but it is so sad that it just becomes a nasty circle (she passed this same attitude onto 2 of my nieces who think that the world is always out to get them and that they try to hurt others in the same ugly way that the1r mom does.)
God Bless you and keep up those prayers!
*I apologize for this Majorly, LONG post!*
HeartOfGold
11-06-2002, 08:41 AM
Marie,
I read posts here tonight, and I just want to say to you,......stop this undeserved abusive behavior your daughter has inflicted on you. She is a very grown woman not some new to the world 20 year old fresh into adulthood. She has no right to blame you for her failings with herself. It's time she takes responsibility for her own actions. I don't care if you were Joan Crawford reincarnated and your only purpose in life was to ruin hers. She is a middle aged woman. Everything she isn't happy with is at no fault of yours. She has been an adult longer now than she was a child. Tell her you Love her and have always been proud of her accomplishments, but that as a person you don't like her. How could you? You are her mother and at 40+ years she should know better to be so unappreciative of you. Has she ever tried to see your life through the perspective of a woman? Ask her, has she ever seen you as a woman? Being a woman herself, she must know what enormous sacrifices women have to make all of their lives. Ask her has she ever stopped hating you long enough to ever think to herself on those days/nights she feels life pressures getting the best of her, how it might have been for her Mother at times? That maybe she could have respected her and been proud and honored to be her daughter? Because what she(your daughter) was going through couldn't compare to what her Mom made it through? Tell her it makes you sad that she can't view your life as what it might have been at times. Tell her you don't believe she ever really could think you some how didn't love her? You were only a woman trying to do her best and that she might stop being so judgemental of your every decision, or your every action you made to her growing up. She has let her emotions fog her intelligence and use you as her reasons her life isn't what she quite hoped for. She has the control to make it more pleasant. One day you won't be here any longer and the reality is that day is sooner than later , a fact not a guilt trip you want to lay on her. If she can't get past her petty accusations, distain for life choices,and mockery of you and your mothering skills, than you can't and won't except it any longer. You wouldn't from anyone else. Tell her your tired of the egg shell path you have allowed her to make you walk down. If she feels inadequate about choices she has made in her (Adult) life to stop blaming you. Even if this hurts her to hear. Tell her she can never know what she has not experienced and not having a child of her own she cannot comment on mothering skills. If she takes it all wrong.... stress to her how even sadder that makes you feel. Your own daughter as a woman can't, no more importantly, refuses, to see her mother as a woman an equal. It's time she hear from you for a change and just listened to your frustrations and sorrows and missed opportunities, and time she stop acting so sorry for herself . There are things she would know if she was a mom and before she get on her high horse and start saying your judging her or making her feel your less proud of her because she never married or has children. Tell her those are her own feeling about herself not yours and that you (as a Mom) love your children unconditionally all your children. You would never or have ever set a meter to measure who gets love. As a mom your wishes for your children has always been what all mothers want for their children. The simplest things mostly, that they be safe, happy, honest, moral, just, and meet someone that brings them joy, not as daughter may feel that mom thinks daughter won't have joy unless she meets someone. Again her thoughts not yours. Lastly tell her how painful it is for you as a mother.
My mother has been dead for 3 years and I miss her so much. If your daughter could only know how much she will regret the time she is wasting.
Sorry so long a post!
My heart goes out to you Marie,
Regards from,
HeartOfGold
I read posts here tonight, and I just want to say to you,......stop this undeserved abusive behavior your daughter has inflicted on you. She is a very grown woman not some new to the world 20 year old fresh into adulthood. She has no right to blame you for her failings with herself. It's time she takes responsibility for her own actions. I don't care if you were Joan Crawford reincarnated and your only purpose in life was to ruin hers. She is a middle aged woman. Everything she isn't happy with is at no fault of yours. She has been an adult longer now than she was a child. Tell her you Love her and have always been proud of her accomplishments, but that as a person you don't like her. How could you? You are her mother and at 40+ years she should know better to be so unappreciative of you. Has she ever tried to see your life through the perspective of a woman? Ask her, has she ever seen you as a woman? Being a woman herself, she must know what enormous sacrifices women have to make all of their lives. Ask her has she ever stopped hating you long enough to ever think to herself on those days/nights she feels life pressures getting the best of her, how it might have been for her Mother at times? That maybe she could have respected her and been proud and honored to be her daughter? Because what she(your daughter) was going through couldn't compare to what her Mom made it through? Tell her it makes you sad that she can't view your life as what it might have been at times. Tell her you don't believe she ever really could think you some how didn't love her? You were only a woman trying to do her best and that she might stop being so judgemental of your every decision, or your every action you made to her growing up. She has let her emotions fog her intelligence and use you as her reasons her life isn't what she quite hoped for. She has the control to make it more pleasant. One day you won't be here any longer and the reality is that day is sooner than later , a fact not a guilt trip you want to lay on her. If she can't get past her petty accusations, distain for life choices,and mockery of you and your mothering skills, than you can't and won't except it any longer. You wouldn't from anyone else. Tell her your tired of the egg shell path you have allowed her to make you walk down. If she feels inadequate about choices she has made in her (Adult) life to stop blaming you. Even if this hurts her to hear. Tell her she can never know what she has not experienced and not having a child of her own she cannot comment on mothering skills. If she takes it all wrong.... stress to her how even sadder that makes you feel. Your own daughter as a woman can't, no more importantly, refuses, to see her mother as a woman an equal. It's time she hear from you for a change and just listened to your frustrations and sorrows and missed opportunities, and time she stop acting so sorry for herself . There are things she would know if she was a mom and before she get on her high horse and start saying your judging her or making her feel your less proud of her because she never married or has children. Tell her those are her own feeling about herself not yours and that you (as a Mom) love your children unconditionally all your children. You would never or have ever set a meter to measure who gets love. As a mom your wishes for your children has always been what all mothers want for their children. The simplest things mostly, that they be safe, happy, honest, moral, just, and meet someone that brings them joy, not as daughter may feel that mom thinks daughter won't have joy unless she meets someone. Again her thoughts not yours. Lastly tell her how painful it is for you as a mother.
My mother has been dead for 3 years and I miss her so much. If your daughter could only know how much she will regret the time she is wasting.
Sorry so long a post!
My heart goes out to you Marie,
Regards from,
HeartOfGold
mushroom1
11-09-2002, 08:12 PM
I am a mother of five, two of which are daughters. I did have a hard time with my oldest daughter when she was 15, 16 and 17...but now she is 21 and our relationship is quite good. (My youngest daughter is eight, so we will see how that goes)
However, I have a TERRIBLE relationship with my own mother. I do not feel loved by her and I do not respect her as a person. She made a lot of "mistakes" in raising me, but I don't consider them to be mistakes...I consider them to be choices, very selfish choices. I wanted to get past them and have a decent relationship with her as an adult, but she was not willing to hear the truth.
Her responses were always (cold) "I never knew you felt that way" or "That didn't happen" and finally, "I'm sorry! I guess that I am the worst mother in the world!"
I wrote her a nine page letter, trying to explain my feelings. It took me two weeks to compose. She responded two weeks later with a paragraph, stating nothing. Frustrated doesn't begin to cover my feelings!!!
It was not easy being her kid, but I could have forgiven the suffering that she caused me had she only taken responsibility for it. Instead, she still makes little cuts about me, my husband etc. And does not take responsibility. She has never "gotten it"
My mother has two daughters as well and she is very close to my sister. How nice for her, that she has an heir and a spare, so to speak, but it is not nice for me. She admires my sister...growing up, I heard "Susan is beautiful and you are okay." Susan was also smart and kind and and and...guess what I had going for me? Common sense! Oh and I was honest.
I am sure Susan had those qualities as well, though.
My point is: Every child is different and parents treat children differently. You have other daughters to be close with, you oldest daughter does not have another mother to be close with. I am a mother and a daughter and I think daughters need their mothers more than mothers need their daughters. I think the most important thing is to not give up (like my mother did)and realize that your daughter is the way she is mostly because of YOU.
However, I have a TERRIBLE relationship with my own mother. I do not feel loved by her and I do not respect her as a person. She made a lot of "mistakes" in raising me, but I don't consider them to be mistakes...I consider them to be choices, very selfish choices. I wanted to get past them and have a decent relationship with her as an adult, but she was not willing to hear the truth.
Her responses were always (cold) "I never knew you felt that way" or "That didn't happen" and finally, "I'm sorry! I guess that I am the worst mother in the world!"
I wrote her a nine page letter, trying to explain my feelings. It took me two weeks to compose. She responded two weeks later with a paragraph, stating nothing. Frustrated doesn't begin to cover my feelings!!!
It was not easy being her kid, but I could have forgiven the suffering that she caused me had she only taken responsibility for it. Instead, she still makes little cuts about me, my husband etc. And does not take responsibility. She has never "gotten it"
My mother has two daughters as well and she is very close to my sister. How nice for her, that she has an heir and a spare, so to speak, but it is not nice for me. She admires my sister...growing up, I heard "Susan is beautiful and you are okay." Susan was also smart and kind and and and...guess what I had going for me? Common sense! Oh and I was honest.
I am sure Susan had those qualities as well, though.
My point is: Every child is different and parents treat children differently. You have other daughters to be close with, you oldest daughter does not have another mother to be close with. I am a mother and a daughter and I think daughters need their mothers more than mothers need their daughters. I think the most important thing is to not give up (like my mother did)and realize that your daughter is the way she is mostly because of YOU.
*SoccerMom*
11-14-2002, 04:25 PM
Hello again~
I did want to mention that I think that for the most part mother's do the best they can when they are raising their children. As a mother, I know that even if you treat your children the same way, their personalities are different...VERY different!! The sad thing is that the personalities can often make us feel neglected or unloved. I know that it infuriates me to see my mom bow down to my oldest sister and sometimes my sister seems to scold my mom if she doesn't get her way! She is almost 50 and still acts like a little brat!
I have recommended on another post this book that I feel taught me so much about people and what makes them feel loved. IT helped tremendously with my spouse but then I realized that it helped me be able to tell what makes my children feel loved. I know you may be laughing but it really worked for me! The name of the book is "THe 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. It also helped me understand what it is that makes me feel loved.
Best of Luck!
:)
I did want to mention that I think that for the most part mother's do the best they can when they are raising their children. As a mother, I know that even if you treat your children the same way, their personalities are different...VERY different!! The sad thing is that the personalities can often make us feel neglected or unloved. I know that it infuriates me to see my mom bow down to my oldest sister and sometimes my sister seems to scold my mom if she doesn't get her way! She is almost 50 and still acts like a little brat!
I have recommended on another post this book that I feel taught me so much about people and what makes them feel loved. IT helped tremendously with my spouse but then I realized that it helped me be able to tell what makes my children feel loved. I know you may be laughing but it really worked for me! The name of the book is "THe 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. It also helped me understand what it is that makes me feel loved.
Best of Luck!
:)
ffsmith
11-19-2002, 01:41 AM
HI Mushroom1
I am always afraid to read this thread but I am glad I did this time
Mushroom1 I can not believe how every thing you said makes so much sense to me.
To hear you say it has really helped me feel a little better.
My mother is very selfish and cold to.
My father even more so.
And the responsibility part, that is a bulls eye.
I have been blamed for everything from my father heart troubles to “forcing” my mother and father to steal and cheat me to causing my brother and sister to not look for a job away from home.
THEY WILL NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. It drives me crazy
Your point about the mother having 2 daughters is perfect.
Marie55 has many daughters but her daughter has only one mother and no family of her own.
Marie55 has a better relationship with her other daughter and not the one who needs it.
Now I have said over and over that this is understandable and natural because the older daughter acts so poorly.
BUT you just can not underestimate how this circumstance would crush and devastate the older daughter even if she is the cause of the strain and not Marie55.
It has crush and devastated me and my relationship with my parents and it sounds like it has effected your relationship with your mother a great deal too.
You are right kids need their parents more then parents need the kids.
Not giving up is VERY IMPORTANT.
I give Marie55 a lot of credit. A LOT of credit for coming to this board and trying to understand.
Especially at her age.
The only point I am going to water-down is the last sentence.
You are right the daughter is the way she is mostly because of the mother or the parents.
There is no doubt in my mind that kids are molded and shaped by parents.
But as an adult the daughter can change and can overcome her problems, fears and insecurities. The daughter could choose to break off relations with the family (as I have done and you seem to have done on at certain level) and work on becoming a better person.
At a certain point, as adults, we have to take responsibility for our selves no matter what occurred in childhood.
But I firmly agree that Marie55 needs to take more responsibility also even if she did the best that she could. Mistakes are always made. Even if we are unaware and they are not intentional, take responsibility. This is part of the great responsibility prents have, as I am sure you are aware.
You are very wise, and very beautiful, thanks again.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 11-19-2002).]
I am always afraid to read this thread but I am glad I did this time
Mushroom1 I can not believe how every thing you said makes so much sense to me.
To hear you say it has really helped me feel a little better.
My mother is very selfish and cold to.
My father even more so.
And the responsibility part, that is a bulls eye.
I have been blamed for everything from my father heart troubles to “forcing” my mother and father to steal and cheat me to causing my brother and sister to not look for a job away from home.
THEY WILL NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANYTHING. It drives me crazy
Your point about the mother having 2 daughters is perfect.
Marie55 has many daughters but her daughter has only one mother and no family of her own.
Marie55 has a better relationship with her other daughter and not the one who needs it.
Now I have said over and over that this is understandable and natural because the older daughter acts so poorly.
BUT you just can not underestimate how this circumstance would crush and devastate the older daughter even if she is the cause of the strain and not Marie55.
It has crush and devastated me and my relationship with my parents and it sounds like it has effected your relationship with your mother a great deal too.
You are right kids need their parents more then parents need the kids.
Not giving up is VERY IMPORTANT.
I give Marie55 a lot of credit. A LOT of credit for coming to this board and trying to understand.
Especially at her age.
The only point I am going to water-down is the last sentence.
You are right the daughter is the way she is mostly because of the mother or the parents.
There is no doubt in my mind that kids are molded and shaped by parents.
But as an adult the daughter can change and can overcome her problems, fears and insecurities. The daughter could choose to break off relations with the family (as I have done and you seem to have done on at certain level) and work on becoming a better person.
At a certain point, as adults, we have to take responsibility for our selves no matter what occurred in childhood.
But I firmly agree that Marie55 needs to take more responsibility also even if she did the best that she could. Mistakes are always made. Even if we are unaware and they are not intentional, take responsibility. This is part of the great responsibility prents have, as I am sure you are aware.
You are very wise, and very beautiful, thanks again.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 11-19-2002).]
ffsmith
11-19-2002, 03:04 AM
Hi Heartofgold
You probably know that I have a lot of problems with what you are saying.
You are right on a lot of points
The daughter does act very badly.
The things she does are undeserved and over the top.
She does need to take more responsibility for herself.
She is very unappreciative.
She does have a lot of hate in her.
She is very judgmental of her Mother and family.
She has let her emotions cloud her intelligence and does blame her mother way too much.
She could make things more pleasant.
I agree with other things you have said too.
But your general attitude on how to handle the matter has a very low probability of working in my estimation. I think if Marie does some of the things you say she should first decide that she is ready to cut off relations and give up. Which is OK, but does not seem to be the way Marie has chosen right now.
Now where I think you are wrong….
First of age has nothing to do with it really. We are effected by our childhood our entire lives unless we take the difficult and painful steps to change. The daughter should do this, but obviously she needs help.
Many people who do not know how to change and do not get help go through their entire life crippled by fears, insecurities, and deficient personalities.
Marie55 can tell her she does not like her, but I think that the daughter already knows this and fears this. The daughter certainly acts like a person would to a mother that does not like them. The daughter already believes that Marie55 does not like her as much as the rest of the family and daughters. To say it to her will put another block in the wall that is between them. I do NOT recommend it. Sure you are saying you love her and are proud but she will not believe these praises like she believes in her soul that you do not like her.
The daughter knows what it is like to be a woman, do NOT question her womanhood. That is not the right approach. She sees a mother with a good husband and a great family with a lot of love. And she is not a part of it. She is mad, jealous, and feels cheated. All very understandable. The daughter feels bad and dishonored herself by the mother and the family. She is not going to be proud or show honor. DO NOT EXPECT IT.
And I disagree that what the daughter is going through could not compare to what the mother has made it through. I do not believe it. But even if it is true, to say is just to invite an argument over who did what to whom and try and compare who had the worse life. I GUARANTEE Marie55 will end up crying if she says that. (This concept does not go well with your concept that they be equals, which I like.)
It might help for the daughter to hear the trials that her mother went though in a non-threatening story type way to lean from them and appreciate them. But they are not at a place in the relationship where this can happen now. There is no trust and so if there is love it is not felt as it should be at this time.
‘Sooner or latter I will not be here’ is a manipulative guilt trip so do not say that. Even if you do not mean it as one the daughter will see it that way. The daughter knows about death and has probably thought about her mother dying. Saying that is NOT going to bring about any change.
I agree about telling her that you are tired of walking on eggshells and that it hurts to be blamed. But here again Marie55 has to be strong and take the blame. That is how you defuse the situation. Not by defending yourself and saying it’s not my fault it is your fault. If Marrie55 does that she is acting just as bad as her daughter. And I do believe that at times Marie55 has been just as childish as the daughter.
Do NOT say that she can not understand or comment because she is not a mother. That is going to be another brick in the wall that she will not take the right way and will never forgive you for.
LISTEN the mother can not understand what it is like to be the daughter. To be single. Not to have a family. To be the daughter who does not get as much love as the other (even if is just in her mind).
And like wise the Daughter does not understand the mother. In this respect they are equally ill equipped.
It is good to have unconditional love and to say this and say it often. But the daughter does not see it and does not believe it or trust it. There is a lot of work to do to fix this.
The things you say about what a mother wants are good. Say those over and over.
It is obvious that Marrie55 does not hold the fact that her daughter is not married or have children against her. But frankly those things matter a lot. Even if they are the daughter’s thoughts they are valid and a valid source of pain and separation that needs to be dealt with by both parties. Married daughter with kids are treated differently and that needs to be worked out and through by both.
In general, I think you are way too one-sided in the approach. The mother and the daughter both need to change for their relationship to get better.
If nothing changes the daughter may end up more bitter than regretful.
Sorry to be so contradicting, it is all my opinion. But I from my personal experience a lot of the approaches you take have been tried and found not to work.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 11-19-2002).]
You probably know that I have a lot of problems with what you are saying.
You are right on a lot of points
The daughter does act very badly.
The things she does are undeserved and over the top.
She does need to take more responsibility for herself.
She is very unappreciative.
She does have a lot of hate in her.
She is very judgmental of her Mother and family.
She has let her emotions cloud her intelligence and does blame her mother way too much.
She could make things more pleasant.
I agree with other things you have said too.
But your general attitude on how to handle the matter has a very low probability of working in my estimation. I think if Marie does some of the things you say she should first decide that she is ready to cut off relations and give up. Which is OK, but does not seem to be the way Marie has chosen right now.
Now where I think you are wrong….
First of age has nothing to do with it really. We are effected by our childhood our entire lives unless we take the difficult and painful steps to change. The daughter should do this, but obviously she needs help.
Many people who do not know how to change and do not get help go through their entire life crippled by fears, insecurities, and deficient personalities.
Marie55 can tell her she does not like her, but I think that the daughter already knows this and fears this. The daughter certainly acts like a person would to a mother that does not like them. The daughter already believes that Marie55 does not like her as much as the rest of the family and daughters. To say it to her will put another block in the wall that is between them. I do NOT recommend it. Sure you are saying you love her and are proud but she will not believe these praises like she believes in her soul that you do not like her.
The daughter knows what it is like to be a woman, do NOT question her womanhood. That is not the right approach. She sees a mother with a good husband and a great family with a lot of love. And she is not a part of it. She is mad, jealous, and feels cheated. All very understandable. The daughter feels bad and dishonored herself by the mother and the family. She is not going to be proud or show honor. DO NOT EXPECT IT.
And I disagree that what the daughter is going through could not compare to what the mother has made it through. I do not believe it. But even if it is true, to say is just to invite an argument over who did what to whom and try and compare who had the worse life. I GUARANTEE Marie55 will end up crying if she says that. (This concept does not go well with your concept that they be equals, which I like.)
It might help for the daughter to hear the trials that her mother went though in a non-threatening story type way to lean from them and appreciate them. But they are not at a place in the relationship where this can happen now. There is no trust and so if there is love it is not felt as it should be at this time.
‘Sooner or latter I will not be here’ is a manipulative guilt trip so do not say that. Even if you do not mean it as one the daughter will see it that way. The daughter knows about death and has probably thought about her mother dying. Saying that is NOT going to bring about any change.
I agree about telling her that you are tired of walking on eggshells and that it hurts to be blamed. But here again Marie55 has to be strong and take the blame. That is how you defuse the situation. Not by defending yourself and saying it’s not my fault it is your fault. If Marrie55 does that she is acting just as bad as her daughter. And I do believe that at times Marie55 has been just as childish as the daughter.
Do NOT say that she can not understand or comment because she is not a mother. That is going to be another brick in the wall that she will not take the right way and will never forgive you for.
LISTEN the mother can not understand what it is like to be the daughter. To be single. Not to have a family. To be the daughter who does not get as much love as the other (even if is just in her mind).
And like wise the Daughter does not understand the mother. In this respect they are equally ill equipped.
It is good to have unconditional love and to say this and say it often. But the daughter does not see it and does not believe it or trust it. There is a lot of work to do to fix this.
The things you say about what a mother wants are good. Say those over and over.
It is obvious that Marrie55 does not hold the fact that her daughter is not married or have children against her. But frankly those things matter a lot. Even if they are the daughter’s thoughts they are valid and a valid source of pain and separation that needs to be dealt with by both parties. Married daughter with kids are treated differently and that needs to be worked out and through by both.
In general, I think you are way too one-sided in the approach. The mother and the daughter both need to change for their relationship to get better.
If nothing changes the daughter may end up more bitter than regretful.
Sorry to be so contradicting, it is all my opinion. But I from my personal experience a lot of the approaches you take have been tried and found not to work.
[This message has been edited by ffsmith (edited 11-19-2002).]