hangtenvetter
10-17-2003, 09:22 AM
Does anybody here think about the moving parts in machinery, and worry about all that friction, all the things that must go exactly right for it all to work, worry that it is wearing down, and it will eventually break, and that you need to give your machine plenty of rest?
Does anybody think about the gears spinning and the teeth of the gears constantly spinning on one another, or the stress of pistons constantly firing.
Or think that the refrigerator must be on the brink of breaking down since the freon just can't be compressed and decompressed forever without something giving.
Or think of the blade on the lawn mower. When the blade hits the side of the sidewalk, do you picture the internals of the engine just totally stressing out?
When you are on a plane, do you look at the engine in amazement and find it unbelievable that it all works, and that it must surely break?
Does the idea of an engine make you tired?
Do you feel sorry for the machines when they work so hard?
Does anybody think about the gears spinning and the teeth of the gears constantly spinning on one another, or the stress of pistons constantly firing.
Or think that the refrigerator must be on the brink of breaking down since the freon just can't be compressed and decompressed forever without something giving.
Or think of the blade on the lawn mower. When the blade hits the side of the sidewalk, do you picture the internals of the engine just totally stressing out?
When you are on a plane, do you look at the engine in amazement and find it unbelievable that it all works, and that it must surely break?
Does the idea of an engine make you tired?
Do you feel sorry for the machines when they work so hard?
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Sanguine
10-17-2003, 07:46 PM
Hi Hangtenvetter,
As I started reading your post, I thought you might be leading up to some sort of metaphorical reference to the effect of stress on the mind, but you were not. While I can't say that I've ever felt sorry for or worried much about the mechanical stress on a machine or appliance, I have had the same thoughts about airplane engines. I think as I've gotten older, I've both marveled and feared the complexity of flying.
It sounds like you sort of personify inanimate objects like machines. I think that's kind of interesting, and it suggests to me that you have a fascination and admiration perhaps with how things work mechanically. Perhaps you have such a deep appreciation for mechanical things that you attribute a life-like quality or spirit to them. I know some people do that with their cars over time -- they name them and baby them like pets. It's always difficult to retire old cars and appliances that have been around for a long time.
Anyhow, are you concerned that these machines/appliances will break down; i.e. a fear of a plane crash as a result of engine failure, or the inconvenience of having to replace a fridge? Or is it that you find yourself simply concerned for these objects as you would a pet? Perhaps it's a combo of both?
As I started reading your post, I thought you might be leading up to some sort of metaphorical reference to the effect of stress on the mind, but you were not. While I can't say that I've ever felt sorry for or worried much about the mechanical stress on a machine or appliance, I have had the same thoughts about airplane engines. I think as I've gotten older, I've both marveled and feared the complexity of flying.
It sounds like you sort of personify inanimate objects like machines. I think that's kind of interesting, and it suggests to me that you have a fascination and admiration perhaps with how things work mechanically. Perhaps you have such a deep appreciation for mechanical things that you attribute a life-like quality or spirit to them. I know some people do that with their cars over time -- they name them and baby them like pets. It's always difficult to retire old cars and appliances that have been around for a long time.
Anyhow, are you concerned that these machines/appliances will break down; i.e. a fear of a plane crash as a result of engine failure, or the inconvenience of having to replace a fridge? Or is it that you find yourself simply concerned for these objects as you would a pet? Perhaps it's a combo of both?
hangtenvetter
10-18-2003, 01:16 AM
Anyhow, are you concerned that these machines/appliances will break down; i.e. a fear of a plane crash as a result of engine failure, or the inconvenience of having to replace a fridge? Or is it that you find yourself simply concerned for these objects as you would a pet? Perhaps it's a combo of both?
Great insights, Sanguine. I do personify inanimate objects. The objects aren't necessarily mechanical (that is moving parts). Any object that has "done me right", whether it be a trusty garden hose sprayer or a car that has driven me for miles on end. Somewhere in my psyche, I develop an attachment, and the objects takes on character. I hadn't realized this until I started the meds. It was like a window opened. I saw this stuff around me, and it was scary... I had gotten to the point where I was worried about using machines for fear of wearing them out... as if they really care!
Complicated machinery, such as a clocks, jet engines, printers, copy machines... are just so complicated, that I can't fathom people actually making them robust enough to handle much. The vibration an airplane wing takes... The weight a bridge supports... So anytime I deal with a machine (escalators, elevators, operating systems, toasters...), I think of the intricacies involved in making them work. It's almost as if I have to understand the thing in order to use it, or I am not worthy.
And along with this there is the worry of wearing things out. It's just recently that I go, well if it wears out... we'll get a new one.
I know this sounds crazy, but for instance if I wear out a toaster... and get a new one... I have to throw away the current one. I get to thinking about how much trash I throw away. I think of the toaster, and where it will go. I think about the decay rate of a toaster. I know it will be in the ground for a loooong time. I then think get to thinking that we are just going to overfill the landfills. I have to save that toaster so I don't overfill the landfill!
It sure helps to write these things, thanks for listening.
Great insights, Sanguine. I do personify inanimate objects. The objects aren't necessarily mechanical (that is moving parts). Any object that has "done me right", whether it be a trusty garden hose sprayer or a car that has driven me for miles on end. Somewhere in my psyche, I develop an attachment, and the objects takes on character. I hadn't realized this until I started the meds. It was like a window opened. I saw this stuff around me, and it was scary... I had gotten to the point where I was worried about using machines for fear of wearing them out... as if they really care!
Complicated machinery, such as a clocks, jet engines, printers, copy machines... are just so complicated, that I can't fathom people actually making them robust enough to handle much. The vibration an airplane wing takes... The weight a bridge supports... So anytime I deal with a machine (escalators, elevators, operating systems, toasters...), I think of the intricacies involved in making them work. It's almost as if I have to understand the thing in order to use it, or I am not worthy.
And along with this there is the worry of wearing things out. It's just recently that I go, well if it wears out... we'll get a new one.
I know this sounds crazy, but for instance if I wear out a toaster... and get a new one... I have to throw away the current one. I get to thinking about how much trash I throw away. I think of the toaster, and where it will go. I think about the decay rate of a toaster. I know it will be in the ground for a loooong time. I then think get to thinking that we are just going to overfill the landfills. I have to save that toaster so I don't overfill the landfill!
It sure helps to write these things, thanks for listening.
Sanguine
10-18-2003, 08:13 AM
As far as really complex machinery and man-made structures are concerned, I find these things absolutely fascinating. Airplane wings, ailerons, rudders, and engines are amazing to me; and yet they seem so precarious that I can't believe they work so reliably. Bridges and trains are incredible feats of human engineering, and there really is something aesthetically pleasing about them. I've never gotten tired of looking at the bridges in New York and San Francisco.
Anyhow, I'm rambling here. You seem a little concerned over your personification of such objects. It seems a result of your fear, awe, and general sense of marvel over how things function mechanically. I am just as analytical, fearful, and inspired by the human mind. The more I learn about it, the more amazed I am at how the brain functions -- I even tend to overanalyze it at times.
That said, I was going to mention that you seem to take a lot of responsibility for understanding, maintaining, and I guess disposing of these mechanical objects. I'm not sure this really matters, unless it distresses or bothers you to some extent...
Anyhow, I'm rambling here. You seem a little concerned over your personification of such objects. It seems a result of your fear, awe, and general sense of marvel over how things function mechanically. I am just as analytical, fearful, and inspired by the human mind. The more I learn about it, the more amazed I am at how the brain functions -- I even tend to overanalyze it at times.
That said, I was going to mention that you seem to take a lot of responsibility for understanding, maintaining, and I guess disposing of these mechanical objects. I'm not sure this really matters, unless it distresses or bothers you to some extent...
hangtenvetter
10-18-2003, 11:05 AM
I too marvel at technology. The preoccupation with the inner workings of things mechanical doesn't bother me. I value that.
The guilt associated with tossing a toaster bothers me. I know most people save things because they think that someday they might use them. I have found that I save weird things for three reasons: I -worry- that if I toss it, I might be stranded without it; I have attached some sentimental value to it; or that the thing has "seen me through" and I owe it some respect.
The last one is odd. I say things like, "Man, I hate to see that little guy go. He was a good water hose. Awe, maybe I can patch him." I begin to analyze my motives. "You could patch him. He's not that bad. You could give him another chance." Suddenly the decision to toss the hose becomes a moral decision.
What happened to me at my worst was that all decisions became moral decisions. Each one, I had to figure out "the right thing". Looking back, I suppose that the fear of tossing the hose was just another example of trying to do the right thing, not necessarily placing animate characteristics to that poor old hose.
If you could just know the moral debacle I went through of tossing a plant! It got so bad that cutting grass was a chore in morality!
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
The guilt associated with tossing a toaster bothers me. I know most people save things because they think that someday they might use them. I have found that I save weird things for three reasons: I -worry- that if I toss it, I might be stranded without it; I have attached some sentimental value to it; or that the thing has "seen me through" and I owe it some respect.
The last one is odd. I say things like, "Man, I hate to see that little guy go. He was a good water hose. Awe, maybe I can patch him." I begin to analyze my motives. "You could patch him. He's not that bad. You could give him another chance." Suddenly the decision to toss the hose becomes a moral decision.
What happened to me at my worst was that all decisions became moral decisions. Each one, I had to figure out "the right thing". Looking back, I suppose that the fear of tossing the hose was just another example of trying to do the right thing, not necessarily placing animate characteristics to that poor old hose.
If you could just know the moral debacle I went through of tossing a plant! It got so bad that cutting grass was a chore in morality!
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
[This message has been edited by hangtenvetter (edited 10-18-2003).]
Sanguine
10-18-2003, 04:36 PM
Well, I think everyone can identify with having attachments to inanimate objects, and even debating or agonizing over such decisions to fix or throw away. But it does sound like it caused you some moral anguish to some extent. I can't say for sure, but it almost sounds like a very limited form of "responsibility OCD" or perhaps hoarding. Forgive me for making such an off the cuff, loosely substantiated assessment -- this is based only on what I've read about it, not on personal experience. And this would of course also depend on how much it was bothering or preoccupying you. It sounds like worst case scenario, you were annoyed or bothered by the amount of importance you placed on those decisions...and best case scenario, you just really appreciate and have a unique attachment for your appliances and such. Many people feel this way to some extent.
Anyhow, in the end, it may just come down to how hard you are on yourself about these and other of life's decisions -- and this could have absolutely nothing to do with ocd at all. I for example probably try too hard to please everyone around me. I think this is more emotional conditioning than anythig else, and I've sort of grown out of it a bit in time. So, before I get too off topic, I think the point is that this could be a moral responsibility issue.
Anyhow, in the end, it may just come down to how hard you are on yourself about these and other of life's decisions -- and this could have absolutely nothing to do with ocd at all. I for example probably try too hard to please everyone around me. I think this is more emotional conditioning than anythig else, and I've sort of grown out of it a bit in time. So, before I get too off topic, I think the point is that this could be a moral responsibility issue.
hangtenvetter
10-18-2003, 05:04 PM
I appreciate your assessment. I would agree with "limited form" in any case. I think that emotional conditioning is a lot of it, and I, as you, am growing out of it. Thank goodness!
I've read a little about responsibility ocd, and would agree that I might have a limited case. The full blown case is extremely debilitating.
Having a limited case of something can nickel you to death after a long period of time.
The worst case for me was when -all- decisions became a choice that had to be thought through completely in order to reach the right decision and best decision. When even the tiniest decision became a stumbling block. When I was lying awake all hours of the night thinking about the decisions I had made and had to make. So the worst case was when I began to lose sleep. The loss of sleep took a toll on me which made me even more off kilter. Which further made the decisions even more insurmountable. You see the spiral.
The above paragraph makes me think of GAD.
I realize that this is branching off the topic. But I am still trying to figure things out.
I've read a little about responsibility ocd, and would agree that I might have a limited case. The full blown case is extremely debilitating.
Having a limited case of something can nickel you to death after a long period of time.
The worst case for me was when -all- decisions became a choice that had to be thought through completely in order to reach the right decision and best decision. When even the tiniest decision became a stumbling block. When I was lying awake all hours of the night thinking about the decisions I had made and had to make. So the worst case was when I began to lose sleep. The loss of sleep took a toll on me which made me even more off kilter. Which further made the decisions even more insurmountable. You see the spiral.
The above paragraph makes me think of GAD.
I realize that this is branching off the topic. But I am still trying to figure things out.
Sanguine
10-19-2003, 06:49 PM
I can just imagine how difficult it must have been with decision-making anxiety. For starters, having even mild anxiety makes decision-making difficult, and so I can easily see how your downward spiral occurred, especially with little sleep. When we're anxious, we tend to spend more time in REM rather than deep sleep, so we're never as mentally rested as we should be. Adrenaline from anxiety and a lack of sleep keeps people in sort of a worry cycle -- black and white catastropic thinking, making basic decision-making difficult. Funny how a primitive fight or flight instinct can cause us so many problems in the modern world.
Anyhow, much of what you've said does sound like GAD to me. It seems like excessive worrying or very detailed thinking -- and I definitely do a lot of that myself. It's an asset in many ways, but problematic in others as you're well aware. Sometimes its tough to just turn the mind off, but we must.
Anyhow, much of what you've said does sound like GAD to me. It seems like excessive worrying or very detailed thinking -- and I definitely do a lot of that myself. It's an asset in many ways, but problematic in others as you're well aware. Sometimes its tough to just turn the mind off, but we must.
hangtenvetter
10-19-2003, 09:22 PM
...black and white catastropic thinking... I am not sure what you mean by this. I don't know if you mean, black-white, meaning good-bad. Or thinking of things in a manner where the choices made are a definitive fork in the road. Or thinking of all decisions as major ones where the impact is a road to life or death!
Funny how a primitive fight or flight instinct can cause us so many problems in the modern world.
I don't know if you've ever had a chance to visit a foreign place where the pace of life is sloowwww. I wonder how tight we are wound by the pace and barrage of information.
Sometimes its tough to just turn the mind off, but we must.
Agreed. I had no idea how loud my mind had gotten until I began to take medicine. The noise was insidious.
Funny how a primitive fight or flight instinct can cause us so many problems in the modern world.
I don't know if you've ever had a chance to visit a foreign place where the pace of life is sloowwww. I wonder how tight we are wound by the pace and barrage of information.
Sometimes its tough to just turn the mind off, but we must.
Agreed. I had no idea how loud my mind had gotten until I began to take medicine. The noise was insidious.
Sanguine
10-20-2003, 05:23 AM
I probably should have clarified the black/white catastrophic thinking statement. I was referring to the sort of errors that are typically made in thinking when we are anxious, and how we frame our choices when our systems are flooded with adrenaline and other stress hormones. A common problem in people with depression and anxiety is the inability to rank all of the alternatives when facing a problem. For example, if I have a major decision to make, but I am in general a catastrophic or black and white thinker, I may attach very negative consequences to making the wrong decision when in fact there are many shades of gray. And it's not just about decision-making, but perception of life's choices, perception of how people might think of you, etc.
Interestingly, when you are stressed or anxious, especially over a long period of time, stress hormones only reinforce this kind of catastrophic thinking. It's no different than being in a life-threatening situation -- adrenaline makes us address the catastrophe as such and run without thinking. If you've got adrenaline, cortisol, and a number of other anxiety producing hormones running through your system, they keep you in a catastrophic state of mind. They can actually impede clear, judicious thinking. As does fatigue. I think the black and white thinking and the catastrophizing go hand in hand. This is all probably just a roundabout way of stating the obvious: when you're stressed and tired, your judgment is compromised. I may have overcomplicated that one...but I think you get my point.
Yep, it's hard not to get caught up in the pace of our information society. I think it also makes decisions and time allocation even more stressful and overly important. This becomes all too clear when I do get around to visiting friends and family in small towns. It makes me wonder if we will evolve as a species in stress management and anxiety disorders -- or whether these things will continue to get more widespread. I think our fight or flight response systems will need some fine tuning in this fast paced world.
Interestingly, when you are stressed or anxious, especially over a long period of time, stress hormones only reinforce this kind of catastrophic thinking. It's no different than being in a life-threatening situation -- adrenaline makes us address the catastrophe as such and run without thinking. If you've got adrenaline, cortisol, and a number of other anxiety producing hormones running through your system, they keep you in a catastrophic state of mind. They can actually impede clear, judicious thinking. As does fatigue. I think the black and white thinking and the catastrophizing go hand in hand. This is all probably just a roundabout way of stating the obvious: when you're stressed and tired, your judgment is compromised. I may have overcomplicated that one...but I think you get my point.
Yep, it's hard not to get caught up in the pace of our information society. I think it also makes decisions and time allocation even more stressful and overly important. This becomes all too clear when I do get around to visiting friends and family in small towns. It makes me wonder if we will evolve as a species in stress management and anxiety disorders -- or whether these things will continue to get more widespread. I think our fight or flight response systems will need some fine tuning in this fast paced world.