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View Full Version : Anyone hear about dextromethorphan for lowering opiate tolerance?


 

 

 
whaleylaker
07-14-2003, 01:57 AM
Hi haven't been around for awhile (computer stuff) so wanted to start off saying hi. I just read an article about DMX and "associative morphine tolerance". I don't think I'm supposed to relay the site, so I'll try to interperate. Basically it seems that the test says that Dmx lowered tolerance, but didn't have tolerance reversal. Whatever that means. Anybody have any ideas or even heard of Dextromethorphan (DMX)? Or even know the rules of posting another site if it's .edu/? Maybe it might make more sense to someone else.Thanks Lake

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chrpps99
07-14-2003, 07:58 AM
Hello
I can't say I ever heard of this DMX? I am not sure about medical web sites, but I beleive in order to post a website of any type you have to get permission from a moderator to post. So when you are at the main topic screen in the left corner it has moderator1 and moderator2 just click one of those and you can email them.. Hope that helps ya.
Take Care

lostsoul15204
07-14-2003, 06:47 PM
Lake, I had a PM doc prescribe a compound of Dextromathoraphan and hydrocodone for what reason I still don"t know, When I asked why the DXT they said that it made it less addictive. All I know is that it didn't help with my pain. They kept raising the HCD mgs and kept the DXT at 20 mgs. Finally they switched me to patch when I ended up in the hospital with an infection. Thats all I can tell about without reading the article yet.

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Rick

Jack Beanstalk
07-14-2003, 11:27 PM
I knew a lady who,s Dr. wanted her to take 1200mg of dextro along with some other meds for her Fibromyalgia.I don,t really remember why he told her to take it or what it was supposed to do.As far as posting medical sites or any sites,be careful.I posted a list of web addresses that had ways of getting meds and Dr.,s to treat Chronic Pain and was banned from posting for a week plus got my post deleted.Jack B.

oceanview88
07-15-2003, 02:28 PM
Dex is an NMDA receptor blocker. This receptor is believed to control pain tolerance and opiate tolerance. Methadone and levodromoran are the only opiates that have this ability to block the receptor.

There is a new OTC med called Dexalone that is a dex capsule that some docs are adding to peoples mix.

Drugs that bind rather than block this receptor have shown to cause hyperanelgesia "more pain" so by blocking the NMDA receptor you can give morphine or oxy the same quality that methadone has as far as slow tolerance, and increased efficacy on neuro pain.

Search for info on the NMDA receptor and you will find what your looking for. Ocean
Article:
Methadone Rediscovered

Methadone is a potent synthetic opioid agonist that has been available for over 50 years. Methadone has been somewhat stigmatized by the medical and lay public as the “heroin addict’s drug”, but it is a very useful, cost-effective agent for treating chronic pain and cancer pain that is non-responsive or refractory to high doses of other opioid agonists (morphine, hydromorphone, oxycodone, fentanyl) due to tolerance or disease progression. Methadone is also useful for the treatment of severe neuropathic pain requiring high-dose opioid therapy where the addition of tricyclic antidepressants and anticonvulsants has been ineffective. It also has a role when high doses of other opioids produce significant financial impact to the patient or the patient experiences intolerable adverse effects from other opioids.

Methadone is a non-competitive N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist and mu-receptor agonist. NMDA – receptor activation results in central sensitization, which is implicated in hyperalgesia, allodynia, and opioid tolerance. Blocking the NMDA receptors may reduce tolerance to opioids and improve neuropathic pain control, thus the current interest in methadone therapy for chronic pain syndromes. Methadone historically has not been utilized because of the risk of cumulative toxicity but more knowledge about its pharmacokinetics and equianalgesic dosing when switching from other opioids has led to its rediscovery.

Methadone is a basic and lipophilic agent that has a large initial volume of distribution. Tissue levels greatly exceed plasma levels with repeated dosing. It has a long elimination half-life that can reach 128 hours with continued dosing. This is due to a slow release from tissues into the bloodstream. This slow tissue release sustains the plasma level, which decreases in a biexponential fashion. The long half-life explains the cumulative toxicity and allows methadone to be administered once or twice daily. Methadone has an oral biovailability of approximately 80%. The oral route is preferred although methadone may be administered by the intravenous, rectal, epidural, intramuscular, and subcutaneous routes. The analgesic effect of oral methadone after single dose administration begins within 30 to 60 minutes and lasts for 4 to 6 hours. As mentioned previously, the long terminal half-life with repeated dosing results in a longer duration of action and subsequent dose changes take time to reach an effect, which makes methadone less suitable as an agent for breakthrough pain. Methadone has no known active metabolites and can be used safely in patients with renal dysfunction. It can be used in patients with chronic stable hepatic disease, but should be titrated to effect.

Once the pharmacokinetics of methadone is appreciated, one has to become familiar with the equianalgesic dosing conversion from other opioids to methadone. Currently, published equianalgesic dosing tables grossly underestimate the potency of methadone and are based on single dose conversions. Most tables for morphine to methadone conversion suggest a 1:1 or 1:4 ratio. The equianalgesic dose of methadone is much lower in patients treated previously with high doses of opioids:

Morphine – methadone conversion ratios

Daily oral morphine dose Approximate conversion ratio

< 100 mg 3:1

101-300 mg 5:1

301-600 mg 10:1

601-800 mg 12:1

801-1000 mg 15:1

>1001 mg 20:1

To initiate methadone therapy, a loading dose of 25% to 50% extra is used during the first 2 days to allow for saturation of body tissues. This should be avoided in the frail and elderly and in those on other sedating medications. For instance, a patient is taking sustained release morphine 300 mg twice a day. The predicted maintenance dose of methadone is 60 mg daily. A loading dose of 80 mg per day is given as 20 mg four times a day for the first 2 days, reduced to 20 mg three times a day on day three, simplified to 30 mg twice a day on day five. To highlight cost savings, the cost difference based on average wholesale price is $39.48 per day for MS Continâ 600 mg compared to $0.87 for 60 mg of methadone. Immediate release opioids (e.g. morphine, oxycodone) should be provided for breakthrough pain. Dose adjustments of methadone should be performed in the morning for monitoring purposes. Dose reductions should be initiated whenever indicated using standard assessment parameters.

Methadone shares all of the common toxicities associated with other opioid agonists. Patients over 65 years of age have reduced methadone clearance and need cautious dosing and supervision. Methadone, when dosed properly, is a valuable addition for clinicians treating severe cancer pain, cancer pain with a neuropathic component, pain that is poorly responsive to other opioids, or when finances dictate a change based on other high-dose therapies.



[This message has been edited by oceanview88 (edited 07-15-2003).]

Shammy24
07-15-2003, 05:41 PM
I know Dextromethorphan is a cough suppressant, and have heard of it being used along with pain meds to 'boost' their effectiveness. The above article that says it keeps morphine, etc., from being as addictive is very interesting and the first I've heard of this. If true, and if it does really help boost pain meds effectiveness, wonder why more docs are not using this combination????
Shammy24

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I'm so confused that I don't know whether to scratch my watch, or wind my butt! :)

CNMP Patient for 8+ yrs.

oceanview88
07-15-2003, 07:37 PM
Actually many new long acting meds are being formulated with Dex to give it the NMDA blocking ability.It's also used like Jack said to compound with pure hydrocodone to prolong the action and increase the effectiveness.

New info like sub types of opiate receptors and other receptors that do deal with pain perception have been discovered. It's just a matter of keeping up with whats new rather than just focusing on what's old and proven to work.
Here's another interesting article on this receptor
ABSTRACT:
Chronic pain can be maintained by a state of sensitization within the central nervous system that is mediated in part by the excitatory amino acids glutamate and aspartate binding to the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor. A number of antagonists to the NMDA receptor are antinociceptive in animal models but are associated with significant dose-limiting side effects. Commercially available NMDA-receptor antagonists include ketamine, dextromethorphan, memantine, and amantadine. The opioids methadone, dextropropoxyphene, and ketobemidone are also antagonists at the NMDA receptor. The NMDA-receptor antagonists have a significant impact on the development of tolerance to opioid analgesics. Consequently, NMDA-receptor antagonists may represent a new class of analgesics and may have potential as coanalgesics when used in combination with opioids.

Here is another,
ABSTRACT:
Pain is detected by two different types of peripheral nociceptor neurons, C-fiber nociceptors with slowly conducting unmyelinated axons, and A-delta nociceptors with thinly myelinated axons. During inflammation, nociceptors become sensitized, discharge spontaneously, and produce ongoing pain. Prolonged firing of C-fiber nociceptors causes release of glutamate which acts on N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors in the spinal cord. Activation of NMDA receptors causes the spinal cord neuron to become more responsive to all of its inputs, resulting in central sensitization. NMDA-receptor antagonists, such as dextromethorphan, can suppress central sensitization in experimental animals. NMDA-receptor activation not only increases the cell's response to pain stimuli, it also decreases neuronal sensitivity to opioid receptor agonists. In addition to preventing central sensitization, co-administration of NMDA-receptor antagonists with an opioid may prevent tolerance to opioid analgesia.

One more:
ABSTRACT:
A model proposing that N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor and opioid receptor mechanisms overlap and interact within the same dorsal horn nociceptive neurons makes several predictions. First, hyperalgesia should be associated with opioid tolerance. Second, both hyperalgesia and tolerance to opioid-analgesia should be blocked by an NMDA-receptor antagonist. Results from our laboratory and others support these predictions and point to several clinical implications. One is that, in addition to preventing tolerance and dependence, combining NMDA-receptor antagonists with both opioid and nonopioid analgesics may increase their analgesic potency. Preclinical animal studies demonstrate these advantages and underscore the practicality of the combined administration of nontoxic NMDA-receptor antagonists with various types of analgesic drugs.
........................................ ......
Dexalone* is available OTC in 30mg gelcaps, unfortuantely these manufacturers think CPers have money to burn. 10 30mg capsules cost 6 bucks. It's commonly prescribed three times a day so your talking about 60 bucks a month your insurance isn't going to cover because it's OTC. Hopefully there will be cheaper alternatives in the future.

If your PM doc doesn't want to play scientist and read every periodical that comes out , do it for him and take him your findings. That is a problem with docs, they are not required to continue their education once they have completed their internship and granted a fellowship into a specialty. The only type of doc I have met that does stay on top of what's new are infectious disease docs. When you treating aids you have to read every new periodical that comes their way.

Few medical doctors are in their field for the love of science. They leave all the research to the PHD's and pharmaceutical companies.IMO
Take care, Ocean



[This message has been edited by oceanview88 (edited 07-15-2003).]

grizzk62
07-15-2003, 09:25 PM
Ocean,

Hey thanks for the articles and the info. Even tho I have read those articles before on other various websites. since I am a methadone patient and love to find out all I can about pain. I think that it will benefit all who have read what you have posted so well. again thanks and by all means keep the info flowing. I just wish I had the time to do more research and all. Thanks for all the hard work again. I for one am grateful.


Matt

whaleylaker
07-16-2003, 03:33 AM
Thanks for everyone's insight. OCEAN WOW...The info you shared is great. Nobody can ever be too informed especially when it comes to medication. Thanks from me and everyone else who reads this, Lake





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