HI,

I posted a few months ago concerning my first grade son. His teacher had been seeing signs of ADD and a possible learning disability. The school was behind in doing evaluations so we decided it was in his best interests not to wait and get an outside one done with a psychologist. Our psych. diagnosed him with a reading disorder and "ADD-like behavior", meaning she wants to defer the diagnosis of ADD at this time until resources are put into place at school and see if that behavior diminshes once he reads better, etc. His reading level/comprehension was about 25 points below his IQ, which indicates a disabiilty and therefore qualifies for servies at school.

Now here's the issue: The school psychologist called me in yesterday and they feel he has a reading disorder/learning disability because of ADD, not the other way around as my psychologist states. Now they want to test further to see if he really has a learning disability or just ADD getting into the way of reading, so to speak. Well, I am just furious!!! I feel like they are giving me the run around in delaying services my son needs at school. I had my son tested at a psychologist who did every darn test that the school system does, plus some more. The school is saying they want to see "where" the reading disorder is stemming from: is it phonics, decoding words, etc. They are arguing with my psychologist test score on his reading comp. because they say, "of course that score is low, because he can't comprehend what he can't read". And now they want to give him some more ADD tests at school. The psychologist has gone in his classroom the past few days to observe him and he says he definitely sees ADD, as does his teacher who tells me all the time. They think he has Cognitive ADD. What is that? But my psychologist tells me, let's address the LD first.

I guess my question is: Have any of you been in this position of conflicting reports? And are there varoius "types" of ADD? They think his is cognitive, I guess meaning the just-can't-concentrate and pay attention part of ADD.

If you read this far, thanks so much!
Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

Kellaz

Yikes. That is quite a problem - it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. And your child's well-being is at stake. First of all, take a breath and realize that just a few years ago, your child would have had to just muddle through any learning problems, getting shuttled to bad reading programs and being told that he's not trying hard enough. You have a problem of excess - and conflicting opinions.

Is your psychologist a specialist in ADD? You can and should get a second opinion. ADD absolutely causes learning problems, but perhaps not the problems your child is experiencing. For instance, I'm about as bad a walking case of ADD as you can get, but I excelled in reading skills and had none of the signs of hyperactivity that those with ADHD have. I would just "tune out" when I wasn't being stimulated enough in my classroom, usually during some rote exercise and/or mathematics. But I was *way* ahead of the rest of my class, all the way through college, in reading and writing skills. And yet if you ask me where I put my keys, or why I walked into a room, or where the bills are that have to get paid by the end of the month ... uh, oh. It gets quite a bit more severe than that. For instance, if a child is having trouble with reading (because it does take quite a bit of focused concentration to learn to read), think how daunting a whole book is going to look, particularly when you might not even recall most of the plot, the names of the characters, et al, when you finally finish reading that book. Welcome to the world of ADD.

It's not all bad, of course. You should *definitely* pick up a copy of "Driven to Distraction: Recognizing and Coping With Attention Deficit Disorder from Childhood Through Adulthood" by Edward M. Hallowell, M.D. and John J. Ratey, M.D. They are both clinical psychologist who specialize in ADD and in fact have the disorder. Their book is often considered the bible of ADD and contains wonderfully insightful case studies from their practice, many of whom are children. Resources are listed inside for parents of children with ADD. There are, of course, many other wonderful books that just address ADD/ADHD in children.

But don't be afraid to seek the opinion of a psychologist who specializes in ADD - or, if your psychologist *does* specialize in ADD, just to find a second opinion. Remember, ADD isn't exactly a cut and dried disorder. It has many flavors, and it's not unusual to wonder if ADD *causes* some of the problems that are seen in adults and children with the disorder or if those problems are secondary disorders which have to be treated separately. I'm going through the same thing - I'm being treated just for ADD, even though I have a heck of a lot of anxiety, and always have ... ever since childhood. My doc is treating just the ADD for now, to see if the anxiety lessens as the ADD is brought under control. If it doesn't lessen significantly, then they'll probably consider it a secondary disorder and begin treating the anxiety with anti-depressents. And I have to say that I suspect that it's been caused by the ADD, since it has lessened dramatically since I began to take medication (Adderall, which is a stimulant).

So hang in there, take a breath and realize that you have many, many resources at your fingertips. Your son is a very lucky boy. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 01-30-2003).]

First of all, ADD doesnt CAUSE ANYTHING. Your son does not have a disorder, ADD is just a catergorical name for something the "smart" people dont know how to deal with (as if they someone gave them an assignment to solve sub-par reading abilities). Downs Syndrome is a disease. Does your kid have downs syndrome? Do you really think your kid is going to be stupid for life? I know how the system works, if the psych industry wanted to mak money, hey have to do it. It's a rule. for example, if you were a leading pyschiatrist, and you knew you could make 25,000 dollars more a year, and all you had to do was tell the industry to call any and every stranger's kid an ADD sufferer and a little slow to learn, wouldnt you do it?

I'm thinking, your son didnt perform well on the reading tests because he didnt want to do it, not because he tried his best and couldnt. Your job as a parent, in a country where people would rather find acceptable ways to give up (your teachers, psychiatrists -- imleaving out psychologists for a reason ill explain in a sec) rather than bend over backwards, is to work overtime at home to make sure your kid is learning, and to find whats bothering him/her because likely, it's an outside factor that is CAUSING him to not want to perform well.

you said that your psychologist and school psychologist differed in opinion. Well, your school psychologist probably wasnt really a psychologist, but a counselor who was trained by people who thought like PSYCHIATRISTS. They label people because that's what they were taught to do. You can ask them why? about certain things, but they never really know, they probably give answers straight from the textbook. Psychiatrists are like that too--they dont really know (or care) whether or why their patients really suffer from a disorder, they are not trained (rather, are not knowledgeable abooout life) enough to form their own opinions.
Psychiatrists can "observe" a patient, and :based on the symptoms: can come up with a diagnosis, an opinion, but a psychologist can really dive into the patient's mind and find out if it's really a chemical disorder that only medicine can handle, or if it's just a complicated human reaction or a condition. A psycholigist (you have to find the one that works for you, thatmeans trying out differnt ones) is smart enough to find the :root: of the problem, and really cure you. Medication only hides the problem, and with luck, the problem will solve itself by the time the patient gets off of it. it is prescribed by someone who doesnt really know 1)why your son has ADD, 2)whether ADD is a real chemical disorder, 3)whether seeking a psychologist's help is important, and 4)whether the medication may end up giving your son permanent damages(I used to take Paxil for something that could barely be categorixed as depression, and when i got off of it, I became insane and suicidal. I asked my highly reputable NY hospital psychiatrist on the next visit, what are the side effects? he told me, nausea, dizziness, and no way suicidal feelings should occur. well, i did. eight months later, there are articles in the newspapar about people complaining from similar, or worse side effects, and thatpsychiatrists didnt know about it unnutil then).

I have a friend who takes ritalin, but I told her she doesnt suffer from any disorder, shes brilliant, and I know it. She's 18 and never concentrated well as a child because, though I willnever tell her, she's always been immensely insecure. so for your kid, i would never talk to a counselor again so long as he/she calls your kid an ADD sufferer. Take him to a psycholigst who you think makes sense and is willing to be straightforward. Dont let anyone label your son untill you know for sure--do :you: honestly think he's incapable?

just to let you know I believe add and adhd are learning disabilities in themselves and they can go hand in hand with other learning disabilities.
My 11 year old daughter (severly adhd) does not have any other learning disabilities, she's been medicated (maximum dosage possible) since she was 5 1/2 and has never been able to perform in school without an aid or resource or special classes,etc.(she would be completely lost without meds)
My almost 9 year old son, diagnosed last January with adhd started to perform better in school once he started ritalin,a regular dose (amazing!). In September he had a special hearing test done and was diagnosed with CAPD (central auditory processing disorder), a learning disability. This year in school he is doing fantasticly well. I do believe the medication works but there are other stratagies you need to learn to help your child (behavior management) and it's different with each child. What works for my son doesn't work for my daughter and vice-versa, because they have different personalities and levels of adhd. Once you learn more about the problems, you'll better be able to deal with them (the children and the problem)
For my son CAPD didn't cause ADHD and ADHD didn't cause CAPD. But I have to deal with both dissabilites at the same time, not one then the other.
sorry so long, I think I'm venting with you. I hope I have helped and remember to be a squeaky wheel at the school and demand the sevices your son has legal rights to. They won't usually tell you what they are so you'll probably have to do some digging, I know I still am and I've been dealing with the school for 7 years!

mommyof5

Conditioned personality disorders do not cause a chronic haze/foggyness/cloud on the brain. Conditioned personality disorders do not cause inattention to a boring subject even when one wants and needs to learn it as a discpline for future goals. 'Normal' individuals may not want to learn a boring subject, but if they need to learn it, they are able to. AD/HD individuals find it extremely difficult if not impossible to learn something 'boring'. AD/HD individuals also have trouble learning a 'liked' subject fully... They jump around from stimulating parts to stimulating parts and never engulf the full aspect of the interested subject.

There is a big difference between a conditioned behavior from childhood and a hard-wired malfunction in the recticular activating system.

Hi,

I contacted my psychologist on Friday after my meeting with the school psychologist and she called me last night and we had a lengthy discussion. I told her the school wants to further test him on reading and further on ADD. She is adamant and wants me to only approve testing for the reading at this time. She says, trust me, once resources are put in place for reading, let's see where he stands with ADD. She wants my son's learning disability put on track FIRST. I asked her if I needed to get an advoate yet at this point and she told me no, not yet.
As I write this, I'm more and more confused. I want to do what's right for my son right now. I'm afraid if I don't let them do further testing for ADD next week, it might set services back. Although my pscyhologist told me no, that won't happen because he qualifies now. Well, what if he takes the further reading test and does well? Will they discount his evaluation and say he doesn't need serives? She says no, but I just have this feeling the school will fight me on it.
My son really enjoys school and loves his teacher. He comes home and immediately does his homework without a fight. I have to monitor him while doing it because he won't do it in order (he'll skip from problem one to problem eight). He's actually at the top of his class in math facts and timed testing. His main problem at school is INDEPENDENT work. He literally cannot sit at his desk and do work by himself. His handwriting is terrible, he circles any answer, I can tell he just didn't even look at what he was doing. BUT.... when they do verbal spelling tests, the handwriting is beautiful and he does pretty well. I work VERY HARD with my son at home. I'm talking an hour and a half a day with him on spelling, math facts, reading. I'm thinking it's time for me to pull back on spending som much homework time with him and see what else comes out of the woodwork?
To EllaGuy: I am going out today to find that book. Thank you very much. I saw that you recommended it to another poster -- it must be good. And you're right, this IS a what-came-first, chicken or the egg situation!
To Help: Your last post really hit it on the nail with me about ADD individuals find it difficult sustaining attention with "boring" subjects as well as subjects they like. This is my son exactly.

But back to square one: Should I address reading first and make them put services in place now before the school year is over on the advice of my psychologist? Or should I take the bull by the horns and address both and try to determine what is causing the other? I know no one can make my decision for me, it's just I feel torn between two ways and need some guidance and input.

You all are great!
Thanks again,
Kellaz


[This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 01-31-2003).]

When we first took my daughter to a psychiatrist for a ADHD evaluation, he "diagnosed" her in 15 minutes. We didn't buy it, and we went outside the insurance network to get an independent evaluation. We found a great psychologist who worked with us. She collected behavioral data from myself, my wife and Michelle's teacher. She ran an IQ test for learning disabilities, and she ran a visual test called OPTax. She also explained a great deal about ADHD to us. She eliminated a lot of the misconceptions we had and we became more comfortable with the diagnosis - after we had the data to back it up.

All the tests indicated ADHD from mild (on my survey) to moderate (on the teacher's) to severe (on my wife's). The OPTax also indicated mild-to-moderate ADHD. Since it was totally visual in nature, no reading or writing disability can overlap with it.

I would put more weight on the psychologist's opinion, myself, since there is no secondary agenda (schools get funding for disabilities of different types - it's always a concern). Go back to them and ask for the tests I mentioned or others that would help distinguish whether the ADHD is a cause of a potential learning problem or if the learning disability is causing behavioral issues.

I hope this helps.

Okay here goes - you are in the system. The reality is treating ADD is art, not science. You will get different opinions. The good news is - both sides want to help your son. My 13 yr. old has ADHD. First doc said ADD, but I never agreed. 2 subsequent docs cannot believe the 1st diagnosis. I had lots of tests done for amazing amounts of money to identify if there were any coexisting learning disabilities present. What it boils down to is - one feature of ADD kids is to perform inconsistently - for whatever reason - lack of focus to hyperfocus. Look @ it big picture. He NEEDS to be able to read. The break downs are occurring - lack of attention can definitely interfere, but a high IQ will for many things compensate. Whether there is a definite disability or not - one on one attention will allow him to focus - and succeed. When young, it is best, because the other kids will not label him for his difficulties. They get much less forgiving as they get older. Giving the child meds - and getting the appropriate flow of neurotransmitters can allow the child to sit, focus & learn. Allowing the child to go to school unmedicated and underachieve is not in itself terrible - as long as there is no social cost. Some ADHD kids need to be medicated to be able to filter out all the stimulation during group activities and pick up on social cues. Does he have friends?
Keep the whole child in mind. Who cares what is causing his difficulty? Get as much information as you can about HOW he learns and use it. Don't worry about the labels. You are fortunate that they seem to be falling all over each other to help him. How can you NOT access as much help as necessary? Be clear that YOU ARE IN CHARGE and will make all decisions as a team, using as much information as available to you. Trust your gut. Too many are willing to blame the childs struggles on lack of parenting. Don't let them get away with that either! Good luck!

I feel your pain. I am a teacher in the public school system, and I see this same problem occur again and again. I will tell you what our Special Education diagnostician tells me. She says that she can not effectively test an unmedicated ADD child for learning disabilities, because the ADD can cause the child's scores to be innacurate. I have a student in my class right now who is diagnosed with ADHD. His doctor told the parent that he wanted the school to test for learning disabilities before he tried medication. The school was required to comply (in Texas if a parent requests special ed testing we MUST do it). When the test results came back, my very intelligent student did not qualify for special education because his IQ came back below average. You see, the ADHD kept him from scoring what he is really capable of scoring. So in this case, I feel that the school was right - we shouldn't have tested him. Now that we have, and he didn't qualify, we can NOT test him again for several years. I believe that this child is LD as well as ADHD, but we are not able to place in him special education. It's very frustrating!

Please remember one thing ~ you are the parent of this child - not the school! If you want another opinion, then it is YOUR right to do so, get as many as you are comfortable with!!
From my own experiences my daughter had an awful year last year at school. They- meaning teacher and psychologist (the schools) - diag'd her with ADHD. What a cruelty they did to her. She is NOT ADHD, she happened to be preteen, her best friend dumped her, it was rebellion time against the parents and especially the teacher! She is very bright, but simply REFUSED to do her school work last year. I had her through mazes of test, so much that she began to get a complex as to WHY everyone was against her at school. And of course I didn't know what to do.
This past summer she and I had a really good heart to heart talk, she said that she was so depressed, and hated going to school every day. She hated the teacher, which since we are VERY small the teacher teaches two grades, she has her for the 6th grade this year and absolutely LUVs her! She said that she didn't want to DO anything and she also said that she really hated when they, and I'm included in they too, were all picking on her and TESTING her for everything! The door of communication was closed and I failed miserably at opening it back up.
I have worked with ADHD kids, and other disorders, please, please have a second, third, fourth opinion. And remember to go with what your gut tells you, if it doesn't feel right don't do it. I let these school officials push me around and intimidate me, because they were "educated", I'm just a mom. Of course, now my opinions have changed and I will never take only one person's word for anything again. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif


[This message has been edited by onewithgreatspirit (edited 01-31-2003).]

ADD is genetic in nature so don't let any tell you that it is not real. What testing was done to come up with the diagnosis of ADD? My son has needed lots of extra help because of his ADD and my daughter who has ADD tendencies but no true ADD was also suggested for help in reading. Just becuase they need help with reading or any subject does not make them ADD or does not mean they have a learning disbalility. Many kids are not the proficient readers, writers or mathameticians that their classmates are and that does not make them learning disabled nor ADD. If you child was not thoroughly tested before being diagnosed with ADD that is the first thing I would do. Once you have a concrete diagnosis in black and white showing what his test results were then you can figure out where to go from there.

Hi,

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. All of you make more sense than the school/doctors/clinician combined!!! LOL

Yesterday my son was sick and stayed home from school and while we were at the pediatrician I told him what was going on and he thinks I need an advocate at this point and gave me the number of this woman he suggests I call. I think I'm at that point now, too, so I'm calling her Monday.

To Mlgable: My son first went to a behavioral specialist and he found ADD behavior only since his testing came out with dyslexia/reading disorder. We then went to a psychologist who did all the educational testing and came up with ADD behavior because of a reading disorder. We turned that into the school December 19, then had winter vacation, and now the school is saying it's the other way around: that he has a reading disorder BECAUSE OF ADD. The school psychologist sat in his classroom for two days at only ten minutes each and came up with this diagnosis. He says, Your son read out loud fine, but I sure see ADD, that's what it is. He wants to further test on reading to see where the disorder comes from so they can give him the right services and asked if I would allow them to further test for ADD.

My psychologist does not want the school to further test for ADD at this time. She wants them to address the LD first, then defer to that after he's been put in services for a while.

I know that if my son does well on the further testing that they will say he does not need services and will fight me on it. I am calling this advocate on Monday to help us out. I am also waiting for the bahavioral specialist to call me back beacuse I want my son back there (they are an ADD clinic among other things) to further evaluate, not only for a second opinion but because he does not exhibit this behavior at home like they say he does at school.

I'll let you all know what happens! Wish me luck!

Kellaz3

Vital neurotransmitters help the brain function correctly. They are manufactured from amino acids; amino acids are the result of protein synthesis. The most complete aminos can be found in complete, high quality proteins. Fish and meat, fowl and eggs, cheese and yogurt are complete proteins.

To Jennita: As a matter of fact, I just started my son on 1000mg of Fish Oil twice a day starting yesterday. He doesn't have a really good diet (all he wants is cereal and bread) and I know that fish oil is good for the brain. Any other vitamins I should boost him on? I've been reading alot about Attend and Focus Factor. Anybody on those and if so, what do you think?

Thanks,
Kellaz

The fish oil is a good idea, but eating fish would be better. High quality proteins are a must; cereal and bread has very little protein. Somehow you must get some dairy and poultry in his diet. Maybe if he won't eat chicken by itself, he might like it cut up in a cheese quesidilla? Some kids like string cheese because it's fun to peel! Pudding cups are usually a favorite. Fruits can maybe by sneaked in dessert dishes, and vegetables to round out the diet, but most important is the protein stuff. I know it's hard to get kids to eat things they should!

[This message has been edited by Jennita (edited 02-02-2003).]

You people are all SOOO wonderful! You should all pat yourselves on the back! It is so great to be able to read and learn more and more about things I thought I was going through alone! http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif I am so happy to have found this site!! God bless you all and for sharing your knowledge ~ Best of luck to you kellaz3!

[This message has been edited by onewithgreatspirit (edited 02-02-2003).]

Boy have I been there. My son has NVLD or Non-Verbal Learning Disability. He is 13 now and we've just moved him to a small, private school where the program is for kids with all sorts of learning issues. We spent 7 years trying to determine what his particular issue was. We heard it all - ADD, ADHD, auditory processing issues to name but a few. It wasn't until last summer, when we had him tested by a team of child psychiatrists, that we were able to finally determine what was going on with this kid. One thing I've learned is that when a child is experiencing anxiety (usually performance anxiety) from a learning issue, it often manifests as hyperactive behavior. As I understand it, we as adults, have many tools to sooth ourselves when we experience anxiety or pressure. Kids have limited tools, so they sooth themselves by being in motion. Also, there is an excellent book written by Daniel Amen, M.D. here in California called "Healing ADD: The Breakthrough Program That Allows You to See and Heal the 6 types of ADD". He categorizes ADD as (1) Classic (2) Inattentive (3) Overfocused (4) Temporal Lobe (5) Limbic and (6) Ring of Fire. Interesting stuff and you may find this helpful to take a look at. One last thing about the schools - in a traditional classroom of 25 to 28 kids, the teachers are stretched already and really have a difficult time dealing with the "different" ones. ADD seems to be the easiest catch-all diagnosis as it is the most familiar and the "easiest" to treat with drug intervention. If you are not comfortable, keep looking. And then look some more. You will get to where you need to be. Good Luck.