Im a 38 yr old Mom of a 9 year old with ADHD. I'll forego the recounting of my son's lack of friends, impulse control, trouble in school, social issues etc.

He was diagnosed in 1st grade, took ritalin 3 times a day. It helped greatly.
2nd grade ok.
3rd grade we switched to Concerta 36 mg and it was wonderful as he did not crash off of it.
this year he has become increasingly physical like getting in fights at the park, punching a smaller kiss in the face over a play ball etc. I've gotten 3 calls from school in just 8 days. not good.

My questions are these: has anyone had a similar situation?
We also see a counselor that his biggest advise is to get Jordan in sports etc. He does not get that my son is the one that pushes the other kids, hogs the ball and does not think for that nano second what the correct and appropriate action is. I'm the Mom standing there while the other parents glare at me like "what the hell is wrong with your child and what a crappy parent you must be" I dont really care what the other parents think but I do not think its fair to jeopardize the other kids fun because of my sons lack of control.

2nd issue: Im getting his meds reviewed this week, Any suggestions? Transition from 1 drug to the other? Im not open to this new strattera drug.

3rd: has anyone had neuro phych testing on their kids? PET or CAT scans? MRI's. ????

I am soo frustrated and it kills me to see my son with no friends, ostricised because he is so overwhelming for any other 'normal' kids.

I need any help/advise or support you have to offer. I'd do anything to help him.

please advise/share.
Kristen

Hi. Let me start by saying that I hope you can find something that works for your son and I know that as a parent you are just trying to do whats best for him.

Now, let me ask you this, why are you not open to trying strattera yet you gave your child ritalin and other stimulant medications that are related to cocaine and meth amphetamines?? That just doesnt make sense! Stimulant medications can cause mood disorders, neurological problems, drug abuse, heart trauma, and many other problems. Docs will tell you this stuff is perfectly safe, well news flash, ITS NOT. Your son might not even have true ADD (then again he might, who really knows heh) The thing is.... it sounds to me more like conduct disorder (which is thought to co occur many times with ADHD but I am fairly sure that most of the time ADHD kids have conduct disorder symptoms due to lack of impulse control and low frusteration tolerance, and children with conduct disorder apear to have ADHD because they dont listen and act out etc) Have you taken a look at info on conduct disorder? Also... has your son been tested for learning disabilities? Stimulants can make violence worse and then they have their other reasons for being unhealthy, my advice would be to take him off of stimulants. I also would like to encourage you to try natural therapies on him. If his symptoms are too much to handle then find supplements that are safe to be given along with his medications and try to lower the dose after you notice good effects of the natural treatments. Most of the time kids with ADHD are the ones BEING bullied, not doing the bullying. So look into conduct disorder and learning disabilities and see if that better fits your son. Once you find out whats really wrong you will be able to better help him. Meds they use for conduct disorder/violence are things like anti depressants and sometimes lithium or anti seizure meds. Please understand that even though you may have seen good results with stimulant meds like reduced impulsivity, better behavior control, more focus, etc. that DOES NOT mean that these medications are good. Yes its true they work wonders, but there can be long term after effects of these meds. They damage the brain in the same way that cocaine and meth does when they are used long term.

There is a lithium product available that is non prescription (lithium orotate). This may help to reduce your sons symptoms but if you choose to use it remember that lithium is not like a vitamin or other natural supplement so there may be side effects. (far less than with regular lithium. And it states that you dont need a doctors supervision for it, but if you had your child taking it then it would definantly be a wise choice to have blood levels checked to make sure the lithium levels arent too high. I have used lithium orotate for conduct disorder and had fair results. It did help with ADHD symptoms a tiny bit (like focus) I have also used it as an anti depressant in the past and for that it was a life saver!! The product I take for my ADHD is beCalmd. It helps with focus and other ADHD symptoms. I also take omega 3. Check out some of these natural treatments... please. If he has to be on a stimulant then thats the way it is, but every other treatment method out there should be tried first.
Good Luck :) I hope your son gets to feeling better soon. By the way, I think the doctors idea about getting him into sports was a half good idea. Like you said he bullies other kids so he shouldnt be in regular sports. What I was thinking is that a non-competative sport might be nice for him. Something that involves activity but not other kids. Like swimming, or running track, etc Then he would have a way to get extra energy out, he wouldnt be tempted to bully children around him, and it would be non competitive so it wouldnt encourage any negative behaviors.

“Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly.”

--Robert F. Kennedy

my son takes geodon with his concerta. It helps him think first then react, rather then reacting before thinking.

We have seen a big improvement in physical aggression since he started it.

I have never heard of that drug and I thought I'd researched them all! Thank you for the tip and I'll look into it further as he gets his med review next week.

Thanks to both of you for your ideas and help so far.
MUCH appreciated.

Hugs,
Kristen

My daughter was suspended from school three times in the 5th grade. One time for biting, another for jabbing a child with a pencil (so hard that the child needed a tetnus shot) and another time for brandishing a stick.

I put her on ritalin and these agressive behaviors stopped immediately and never occured again. She is now about to turn 21. Putting her on the ritalin marked a turning point is her life. For my 10 year old daughter, it was a wonderful, calming medication that allowed her to enjoy life yet maintain impulse control and concentrate.

But my daughter had an awful reaction to the very first dose of dexadrine she tried for her ADHD.

And I hear about children that have wonderful reactions to dexadrine but cannot tolerate ritalin. It is all so individual - what will work and what will not.

Your son might be able to give you clues as to what is wrong. Does he understand that his behavior is inappropriate? (there is a difference between knowing and understanding) Is he distressed by his behavior? Afterwards does he say things like: I don't know why I did that, I just did it. Does he feel like he is being provoked even though it may not look that way?


I came to realize with my daughter that in many ways, her behavior was beyond her ability to control it. It was very obvious that her brain was not working the way it should and no amount of talk therapy was going to give her the control that simply wasn't in her. I came to realize that in my situation as a parent with my daughter (and I'm simply talking about my daughter), it would have been 'abuse' on my part not to try her on medications.

I also know from experience how much a medication can mess someone up. It is entirely possible that the Concerta is increasing his agressiveness. It is possible that once off, his bullying could be greatly reduced or even disappear. It could be that stimulant medications are not the route to go with him anymore. But I'm sure you have already thought of everything I am saying.

The best thing I can recommend is to talk to your son in a way that lets him see you as a 'support' person. I would recommend that you do not try to change his behavior by yelling at him or punishing him. I would speak to him in a way that lets him know there is a problem that needs to solved and reassure him that you are going to help him solve it. I would seek his opinion as to what would be a solution. The more a child is having difficulty, the more vital it becomes that you have a good supportive relationship.

I have found from my own experience that my judgement as to what is best for my child has been better than that of the professionals. If the psychologist you are seeing seems to be coming up with suggestion that you know would not work well for your son - don't hesitate to see someone else.

I would recommend getting your child a thorough neurological exam and making sure that he is not experiencing partial seizures. I had a neuropsych exam a couple of years ago and found it very useful. I also had testing for learning disabilities when I was in my 40s and discovered that I had several. I wish I had had (and my parents had had) that information when I was a child. My son had a SPECT scan in his early 20's which showed the fogging (reduced blood flow in the brain)he experiences when he tries to concentrate. I would not recommend however exposing your child to the radiation involved in many of the scans.

If your child has been on medication daily for a couple of years, you might consider withdawing him off medication entirely so that you can get a better understanding of his 'natural state' at that age. As you know, people change with age - especially children - and it might be good to get a better understanding of what he is like at this age with nothing in his system. If he absolutely needs medication, you will know soon enough. And if he does need something, you will have a better understanding of how it is influencing him.

[This message has been edited by rainonwindow (edited 09-13-2003).]

Originally posted by rainonwindow:
My daughter was suspended from school three times in the 5th grade. One time for biting, another for jabbing a child with a pencil (so hard that the child needed a tetnus shot) and another time for brandishing a stick.

*******EARTHG******LOL! Oh my. Im not laughing at you but the mental picture of your daughter and the stick. LOL. I feel like I'm really 'getting mine' because when my son was about 5 he played with a neighborhood kid whom I used to call 'Ritilan Boy' under my breathe because the boy was such a friggin spaz. Welllll guess who's son was diagnosed with ADHD in kindergarden a year later?

My son was suspended last year when in 3rd grade for taking apart a computer mouse and showing it off to the other boys in the bathroom later by trying to flush the computer ball down the toilet..the Principal told me that was a new one and J(my Son) got suspended for theft and destruction of property. I took J to the police dept and had an officer talk to him about how serious the charges where. I was thinking scare tactics might make an impact...I am fairly certain that after J realized he wasn't going to jail he enjoyed the attention from the male officer since he has no father at home and nada positive male role models. Anyway.....

Over the summer he has grown increasingly violent. A few marked incidences are: Pushing a young girl down so hard at YMCA camp, (MY single mom one week reprive also) that he almost got kicked out as it was like warning number three of his inappropriate <verrrry sick of that word:-)behavior. etc etc.

I just figure that I will cut and paste the letter I wrote to his current counselor as it will explain what has transpired. Bear with me in my being verbose http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/gabby.gif but this forum has been a godsend and sanity savior for me as I find all you great people who TRULY understand the frustrations we parents have with our children and is't wonderful to ***** a bit, seek and vent.
______Letter to his Counselor______
TO: G**** M*****, Ph.D. Counselor September 8, 2003
RE: Jordan ****
FROM: Kristen *******


Dear Dr. *****,

We haven’t seen you since August 12th due to the busy summer and Jordan’s YMCA camp stays. I hope your vacation time was fun and restful.

I wanted to give you a heads up or summary of what has gone on since our last visit so we may utilize the time we have with in our session with you tomorrow.

I was hoping to get through one complete week of school with out any incidences from Jordan in school. His new 4th grade teacher, Mrs. K**** H*******, and I had a brief conversation regarding Jordan’s impulsivity on his 3rd day of school. The same issues of blurting out when he has not been called on and lack of control regarding keeping his hands and/or feet to himself. The reason for the phone call initially came from Jordan regarding some other boy (another boy named Jordan) and some threats of fighting each other etc. and my Jordan wanted me to be outside and meet him at the bus because the other Jordan had threatened him of a fight (my Jordan’s words)

Sigh. …..Mrs. H. and I will be working together to monitor his behavior at school and through our communication I personally will continue with his reward system or privileges being taken away based on his daily school performance. I also got a phone call from the school’s counselor today, Mr. **** B*******, whom I understand you have also been in contact with and that is great. Mr. B***** told me that he sat in on one of Mrs. H’s classes and noticed Jordan being a bit more unruly than last year. Keep in mind we are only talking the first 3 days of school her so this alarms and worries me greatly.

To summarize Jordan’s summer I will note the following:
*Received 2 phone calls on his last week at camp (one week stay) that if he did not keep his hands to himself (he pushed a girl down over a play ball) that he would be asked to leave camp.

*Has recently been involved in 2 physical confrontations with boys at the park. Saturday he indicated he gave another boy a bloody nose, the other boy (other Jordan) then threw Jordan’s shoe in the duck pond. He came home and told me and we immediately went to speak to the other boy’s father. It was a positive encounter with the other boy’s father and the 2 boys shook hands with some degree of relief it seemed, that neither one of them would harass or threaten the other.

*I’ve implemented a list for Jordan to follow for his chores, as he does not complete any task without my having to repeat it over and over. This seems to help but he still tries to ‘skate’ on jobs, doing the minimum to get by which I understand to the point of a 9 year olds abilities but the attitude is frustrating in that he argues each and every point. I have learned to just leave the list, let him read it, ask any questions and let him proceed. I base his daily allowance on his completeness of the jobs he is asked to do.

* Jordan made a few new friends this summer but after some either verbal or physical altercations has lost those relationships. He also denies ever being wrong. I try to teach him that we all screw up, adults included, and admitting when you’ve made a mistake to your friends and or apologize would be worthy of respect instead of denying any wrongdoing. He doesn’t seem to grasp this concept so any suggestions would be welcomed, by all. I try to keep our talks brief and to the point so as not to lose his short attention span.

After my conversation with Mr. B*****, Jordan’s teacher last week and the obvious non change in his behavior in social situations or problem solving, I would like to research either upping his meds dosage or trying something new.

On the home front not a lot has changed for me personally except I am now pursuing full time employment outside my home based business of the last 6 years as the economy and other contributing factors demand it.

I welcome any and all input from you, his teachers and counselors.
You may share this letter with anyone you deem appropriate.

Thanks in advance,
Kristen ******

Cc: emailed to Mrs. H.

Jordan got in 2 more fights since the visit with te counselor who biggest advise was to get him into team sports. Its simply sooo frustrating to get these kinds of answers when he can't go through one week without some physical outburst. Jordan gets in alot of arguments over balls, toys, taking turns etc. Single child syndrome or?

He stayed on the Concerta 36 mg all summer and I occasional did not give him the Concereta 36mg and would instead give him 10 mg in the morning of Ritalin and the another 10mgs if he seemed to need it. He did need the other dose So Iquit that and I just kept giving him the Concerta in the a.m and still do. hes fit, smart, eats great,
*****************EARTHG

I put her on ritalin and these agressive behaviors stopped immediately and never occured again. She is now about to turn 21. Putting her on the ritalin marked a turning point is her life. For my 10 year old daughter, it was a wonderful, calming medication that allowed her to enjoy life yet maintain impulse control and concentrate.

But my daughter had an awful reaction to the very first dose of dexadrine she tried for her ADHD.

And I hear about children that have wonderful reactions to dexadrine but cannot tolerate ritalin. It is all so individual - what will work and what will not.

Your son might be able to give you clues as to what is wrong. Does he understand that his behavior is inappropriate? (there is a difference between knowing and understanding) Is he distressed by his behavior? Afterwards does he say things like: I don't know why I did that, I just did it. Does he feel like he is being provoked even though it may not look that way?

*******EARTHG*****
This really hits the nail on the head. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/hammer.gif Yes yes yes. Exactly!
**********

I came to realize with my daughter that in many ways, her behavior was beyond her ability to control it. It was very obvious that her brain was not working the way it should and no amount of talk therapy was going to give her the control that simply wasn't in her. I came to realize that in my situation as a parent with my daughter (and I'm simply talking about my daughter), it would have been 'abuse' on my part not to try her on medications.

I also know from experience how much a medication can mess someone up. It is entirely possible that the Concerta is increasing his agressiveness. It is possible that once off, his bullying could be greatly reduced or even disappear. It could be that stimulant medications are not the route to go with him anymore. But I'm sure you have already thought of everything I am saying.

*****No, I hadn't. Until this forum :angel:*******

The best thing I can recommend is to talk to your son in a way that lets him see you as a 'support' person. I would recommend that you do not try to change his behavior by yelling at him or punishing him. I would speak to him in a way that lets him know there is a problem that needs to solved and reassure him that you are going to help him solve it. I would seek his opinion as to what would be a solution. The more a child is having difficulty, the more vital it becomes that you have a good supportive relationship.

I have found from my own experience that my judgement as to what is best for my child has been better than that of the professionals. If the psychologist you are seeing seems to be coming up with suggestion that you know would not work well for your son - don't hesitate to see someone else.

I would recommend getting your child a thorough neurological exam and making sure that he is not experiencing partial seizures. I had a neuropsych exam a couple of years ago and found it very useful. I also had testing for learning disabilities when I was in my 40s and discovered that I had several. I wish I had had (and my parents had had) that information when I was a child. My son had a SPECT scan in his early 20's which showed the fogging (reduced blood flow in the brain)he experiences when he tries to concentrate. I would not recommend however exposing your child to the radiation involved in many of the scans.

If your child has been on medication daily for a couple of years, you might consider withdawing him off medication entirely so that you can get a better understanding of his 'natural state' at that age. As you know, people change with age - especially children - and it might be good to get a better understanding of what he is like at this age with nothing in his system. If he absolutely needs medication, you will know soon enough. And if he does need something, you will have a better understanding of how it is influencing him.

****EARTHG
I cannot thank you enough for your outpour of information and things to research. The 2 posts I've read in relpy to my cry for help have opened my eyes and mind http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/idea.gif I feel like there is some hope and please know that the kindness of you strangers has made a positive impact in the life of a mother and her child. Bless you all so very much and sincere thanks for taking the time and effort you did http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/t_up.gif
Major cyber hugs.

Sincerely,
Kristen (earthg)<also yahoo ID
[This message has been edited by rainonwindow (edited 09-13-2003).]