Rachel Kn
07-31-2003, 09:53 AM
Hi.
Can anybody clarify whether the government makes a profit from smoking through tobacco duty and VAT, or does smoking actually cost far more in terms of NHS costs from smoking related illness? I have found various figures and don't know what to believe. It would be good to know, once and for all.
Thank you.
Can anybody clarify whether the government makes a profit from smoking through tobacco duty and VAT, or does smoking actually cost far more in terms of NHS costs from smoking related illness? I have found various figures and don't know what to believe. It would be good to know, once and for all.
Thank you.
Sponsor
lidia09
07-31-2003, 05:05 PM
Hi Rachel
Good question! I don't know the answer I'm afraid but my feelings are that the government makes more than it costs the NHS to treat smokers.
I work for the government & don't think we can believe much of what they tell us when it comes to statistics e.g. number of people unemployed. They just manipulate the statistics to suit themselves & tell us public what they think we should know.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
Lidia :)
Good question! I don't know the answer I'm afraid but my feelings are that the government makes more than it costs the NHS to treat smokers.
I work for the government & don't think we can believe much of what they tell us when it comes to statistics e.g. number of people unemployed. They just manipulate the statistics to suit themselves & tell us public what they think we should know.
What are your thoughts on the subject?
Lidia :)
lslydov
08-09-2003, 10:17 PM
The govt may possibly make more than it takes to treat smokers, BUT then you have to add to those figures all the second-hand smoking related illness suffered by the children of smokers who are abused by being forced daily to breathe smoke in the home (and I know some smoking parents are more considerate and smoke only outside, but sadly there still are plenty who are completely selfish and think nothing of smoking indoors around their children), and there are all the non-smoking adults who are damaged for life by growing up in smoke, because we have such conditions as asthma and generally weak chests, isn't it fair that the smokers should pay for the cost of all this as well as for their own self-inflicted illnesses? Also what about people forced to work in smoky places? Smoking harms many more people than the smokers themselves, if it only harmed the smokers themselves I would have no problem supporting their right to smoke wherever and whenever they wanted, if they were only killing themselves, I would say let them get on and do it! But I have a weak and sensitive set of lungs because of childhood exposure to smoke, I'm wheezy and phlegmy (sounding a bit like darth vader right now lol) and have a bad sore throat right now because of our downstairs neighbour's cigarette smoke drifting through our window earlier this evening so I can't go to bed because I have to sit up to breathe, even smoke in the street makes me cough and get sick. No other nasty things in the air affect me this badly the way cig smoke does. I have to go to the doc to pester for some testing to determine what is wrong exactly but I know I am very sensitive or allergic to cigarette smoke, and I've yet to hear of any treatment for that. It makes me mad that smokers get all the free help they want on the NHS to quit and for their self-inflicted diseases and yet I get nothing at all, even though I got these symptoms all the time as a kid even before I knew why I got them. I think smokers should pay for the harm they cause to non-smokers, I feel I have been denied a lifetime of good health due to my mother's addiction and that the tobacco companies should pay to treat their innocent victims.
Lesley
Lesley
lslydov
08-09-2003, 10:19 PM
The govt may possibly make more than it takes to treat smokers, BUT then you have to add to those figures all the second-hand smoking related illness suffered by the children of smokers who are abused by being forced daily to breathe smoke in the home (and I know some smoking parents are more considerate and smoke only outside, but sadly there still are plenty who are completely selfish and think nothing of smoking indoors around their children), and there are all the non-smoking adults who are damaged for life by growing up in smoke, because we have such conditions as asthma and generally weak chests, isn't it fair that the smokers should pay for the cost of all this as well as for their own self-inflicted illnesses? Also what about people forced to work in smoky places? Smoking harms many more people than the smokers themselves, if it only harmed the smokers themselves I would have no problem supporting their right to smoke wherever and whenever they wanted, if they were only killing themselves, I would say let them get on and do it! But I have a weak and sensitive set of lungs because of childhood exposure to smoke, I'm wheezy and phlegmy (sounding a bit like darth vader right now lol) and have a bad sore throat right now because of our downstairs neighbour's cigarette smoke drifting through our window earlier this evening so I can't go to bed because I have to sit up to breathe, even smoke in the street makes me cough and get sick. No other nasty things in the air affect me this badly the way cig smoke does. I have to go to the doc to pester for some testing to determine what is wrong exactly but I know I am very sensitive or allergic to cigarette smoke, and I've yet to hear of any treatment for that. It makes me mad that smokers get all the free help they want on the NHS to quit and for their self-inflicted diseases and yet I get nothing at all, even though I got these symptoms all the time as a kid even before I knew why I got them. I think smokers should pay for the harm they cause to non-smokers, I feel I have been denied a lifetime of good health due to my mother's addiction and that the tobacco companies should pay to treat their innocent victims.
Lesley
Lesley
lidia09
08-10-2003, 06:27 AM
I stopped smoking 5 years ago & got absolutely no help from the NHS whatsoever Lesley. What free help is available? I went to my GP & actually asked for help. They had no group sessions like they do for say overweight people, alcoholics or drug addicts. They didn't even have any leaflets to give me. The only advice I got was to phone one of those smoking cessation helplines. The patches cost me a small fortune - not on prescription from the NHS either.
To my mind, smoking is just as hard an addiction to conquer than drugs or alcohol. Yet the NHS provides little support to the smoker except to tell them it'll give them lung cancer etc. However if the NHS put some cash into helping smokers, they might spend less on the cure than the cause in the long run.
It's like the prescribing of asthma drugs. I spoke to a GP who told me that most GP's won't prescribe Advair (Seretide in UK). It's all down to money. The patient pays £6.30 for their prescription but Advair costs about £40 for 60 doses. It's not cost-effective to the NHS so they prescribe the cheap stuff. If they spent the money on the Advair, in the long run, they'd have a smaller queue of asthmatics in their waiting rooms.
Lidia :)
To my mind, smoking is just as hard an addiction to conquer than drugs or alcohol. Yet the NHS provides little support to the smoker except to tell them it'll give them lung cancer etc. However if the NHS put some cash into helping smokers, they might spend less on the cure than the cause in the long run.
It's like the prescribing of asthma drugs. I spoke to a GP who told me that most GP's won't prescribe Advair (Seretide in UK). It's all down to money. The patient pays £6.30 for their prescription but Advair costs about £40 for 60 doses. It's not cost-effective to the NHS so they prescribe the cheap stuff. If they spent the money on the Advair, in the long run, they'd have a smaller queue of asthmatics in their waiting rooms.
Lidia :)
lslydov
08-10-2003, 09:27 AM
If the government banned smoking at the very least in public places and in homes where there are kids, simply because it is deadly with no benefit to anyone, then there would not be all these problems.
I think if someone starts smoking in the first place they have to take the primary responsibility for their duty to quit or at least not smoke around other people, in short it is the individual smoker's problem because it is self-inflicted. Seems to me they can get so much help and if patches and gum are expensive, just think how much money they have saved by helping you to quit so isn't it worth it? I have no qualms about saying that I feel I deserve help more than a smoker with similar breathing problems because my ill-health is not self-inflicted. You might say you are a victim of the tobacco companies but at the end of the day YOU chose to start the habit, I never chose to be born to a smoking mother. I also would oppose giving expensive asthma medicines to asthmatics who keep on smoking, why help them to that degree if they won't help themselves? The NHS has to prioritise and for goodness sake look at some people you can't help them like George Best who has started abusing his new liver! I'm sure there was someone else more deserving of it. I've had ventolin a couple of times, now I have nothing to help with my asthma like symptoms because one test showed negative for asthma, so back to square one after pressing the doc for a trial of ventolin. However my mum who has had asthma since she was a kid still has her ventolin and she still smokes like a chimney, I think you have to work with sticks as well as carrots, and if I was my mother's doctor I would almost certainly threaten I would withdraw the ventolin if she would not give up smoking, it's not as if she has few choices of help available and they all save money in the long run because smoking costs such crazy money anyway. I thought smokers got the patches or something on prescription, the NHS seem to go on a lot about how much they can help smokers, but maybe I've got it wrong.
As I understand it people who debrainwash themselves about smoking being relaxing, etc, using the Allen Carr method find no need to use nicotine gum or patches anyway. I bought his book for my mum and it was under a fiver from Amazon!
Hardly breaks the bank, if you can afford cigs you can afford a book that will change your life by changing your total attitude to smoking and quitting!
Lesley
I think if someone starts smoking in the first place they have to take the primary responsibility for their duty to quit or at least not smoke around other people, in short it is the individual smoker's problem because it is self-inflicted. Seems to me they can get so much help and if patches and gum are expensive, just think how much money they have saved by helping you to quit so isn't it worth it? I have no qualms about saying that I feel I deserve help more than a smoker with similar breathing problems because my ill-health is not self-inflicted. You might say you are a victim of the tobacco companies but at the end of the day YOU chose to start the habit, I never chose to be born to a smoking mother. I also would oppose giving expensive asthma medicines to asthmatics who keep on smoking, why help them to that degree if they won't help themselves? The NHS has to prioritise and for goodness sake look at some people you can't help them like George Best who has started abusing his new liver! I'm sure there was someone else more deserving of it. I've had ventolin a couple of times, now I have nothing to help with my asthma like symptoms because one test showed negative for asthma, so back to square one after pressing the doc for a trial of ventolin. However my mum who has had asthma since she was a kid still has her ventolin and she still smokes like a chimney, I think you have to work with sticks as well as carrots, and if I was my mother's doctor I would almost certainly threaten I would withdraw the ventolin if she would not give up smoking, it's not as if she has few choices of help available and they all save money in the long run because smoking costs such crazy money anyway. I thought smokers got the patches or something on prescription, the NHS seem to go on a lot about how much they can help smokers, but maybe I've got it wrong.
As I understand it people who debrainwash themselves about smoking being relaxing, etc, using the Allen Carr method find no need to use nicotine gum or patches anyway. I bought his book for my mum and it was under a fiver from Amazon!
Hardly breaks the bank, if you can afford cigs you can afford a book that will change your life by changing your total attitude to smoking and quitting!
Lesley
lidia09
08-10-2003, 10:40 AM
I quite agree with you that the smoker has to make their own decision to quit & you certainly need willpower to go along with the patches, gum etc. I also completely agree with you that spending the money on the patches, in the long run has saved me thousands of £'s, so yes it was WELL worth it.
I'm not sure if you're directing your reply at me when you say 'You might say you are a victim of the tobacco companies but at the end of the day YOU chose to start the habit, I never chose to be born to a smoking mother.' I wouldn't say I was a victim of any tobacco company & I'm not sure what gave you this idea. Of course I chose to start smoking & I also chose to stop. All I'm saying is it's not easy. I never chose to be born to a smoking father but good grief you can't go through life blaming your parents for stuff. Just makes you bitter and angry.
When I spoke of expensive asthma drugs I was referring to any asthmatics, not smokers! I was using it as an example of how the NHS wastes money. Read the asthma posts & you will see how many asthmatics benefit from Advair, outwith the UK. Here, the docs prescribe Ventolin & Becotide or other combinations which are now less effective in the treatment of asthma, they're also much cheaper. My point is that if asthmatics were given better drug treatment in the UK, they'd save money in the long run.
If patches were available on prescription (no you don't get them on the NHS Lesley) & GP's were able to hold smoking cessation clinics, offering help & support for those who want to stop, perhaps that would help in the long run too. In recent years a tablet became available on prescription but it's thought to cause high blood pressure & even death!
If you have never smoked, you won't understand just how difficult it can be to stop. Many smokers want to stop but feel they just can't do it. A lot of smokers started so young they had no idea what they were letting themselves in for. I think people come to this board to get support from others, not to receive a lecture. The decision comes when the individual feels strong enough to do it & no amount of lecturing on the dangers to yourself or others will help.
I don't think it would be very ethical for a doctor to tell your mother he was taking her ventolin away because she won't stop smoking! It would probably be tantamount to murder :D Nor could the government ban smoking in homes where there are children.
When I was about 17 I was shown a video of a post-mortem of a junkie. Sure as hell put me off ever thinking about sticking a needle in myself! I think what the public needs is hard-hitting education. Putting nasty photos on the side of packs (their latest idea) won't help. They should try taking dissected human smokers lungs into schools & make them available for public viewing, that would be more helpful I reckon. What does everyone else think about this debate?
Lidia :)
I'm not sure if you're directing your reply at me when you say 'You might say you are a victim of the tobacco companies but at the end of the day YOU chose to start the habit, I never chose to be born to a smoking mother.' I wouldn't say I was a victim of any tobacco company & I'm not sure what gave you this idea. Of course I chose to start smoking & I also chose to stop. All I'm saying is it's not easy. I never chose to be born to a smoking father but good grief you can't go through life blaming your parents for stuff. Just makes you bitter and angry.
When I spoke of expensive asthma drugs I was referring to any asthmatics, not smokers! I was using it as an example of how the NHS wastes money. Read the asthma posts & you will see how many asthmatics benefit from Advair, outwith the UK. Here, the docs prescribe Ventolin & Becotide or other combinations which are now less effective in the treatment of asthma, they're also much cheaper. My point is that if asthmatics were given better drug treatment in the UK, they'd save money in the long run.
If patches were available on prescription (no you don't get them on the NHS Lesley) & GP's were able to hold smoking cessation clinics, offering help & support for those who want to stop, perhaps that would help in the long run too. In recent years a tablet became available on prescription but it's thought to cause high blood pressure & even death!
If you have never smoked, you won't understand just how difficult it can be to stop. Many smokers want to stop but feel they just can't do it. A lot of smokers started so young they had no idea what they were letting themselves in for. I think people come to this board to get support from others, not to receive a lecture. The decision comes when the individual feels strong enough to do it & no amount of lecturing on the dangers to yourself or others will help.
I don't think it would be very ethical for a doctor to tell your mother he was taking her ventolin away because she won't stop smoking! It would probably be tantamount to murder :D Nor could the government ban smoking in homes where there are children.
When I was about 17 I was shown a video of a post-mortem of a junkie. Sure as hell put me off ever thinking about sticking a needle in myself! I think what the public needs is hard-hitting education. Putting nasty photos on the side of packs (their latest idea) won't help. They should try taking dissected human smokers lungs into schools & make them available for public viewing, that would be more helpful I reckon. What does everyone else think about this debate?
Lidia :)