How is everyone doing? I have had recent development in my pain related to my L5S1 Spondylolisthesis (Grade 1) I also have nerve compression in my right leg.
Every so often I get sharp pains down my right side, normally just on the right side of my lower back. Lately these seem to be more frequent. It happens now not only when I bend over but if I am standing still doing nothing.
Today was the worst I have had. I was watching tv standing up (i was facsinated by the news) and I got a burning pain that swept from my thorasic through lumbar then into both buttocks and down my right leg (just down the thigh). It felt like boiling water but on my insides.It lasted only a couple of seconds.
Does anyone else experience this, or can anyone shed some light of what it may be? I am due to have an L5S1 posterior lumbar interbody fusion in 7 weeks.
I can relate to some of the 'shooting down, into buttock & leg' - but, I have primarily on right side. I have torn disc...and am assuming it's causing my problems. Some of my worst times are when I'm standing still for any length of time i.e. making potato salad....when I was done one day, I was 'done' for the rest of the day - that's how bad a flare I had! Stupid potatos!
Sorry I can't be of more help....I'm not familiar w/ spondolisthesis...the nerve compression c/b causing some of it, in my opinion.
Keep us posted....will you be checking w/ doc's office re: this latest development?
ttfn
Karen
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9/22/00 24 hour labor, baby posterior, left tailbone killing me
12/00 MRI -normal-but pain still-began taking vicodin
2/8/02 - 2nd baby born - Csection-healthy girl
2000-11/02 various PT + pain meds
11/02 Referred to Neuro
3/03 NEW MRI - slight bulge L3-L4, DDD, neural foramen,Superior aspect S1 and L5 Nerve root involvement-Neuro Refers to PM for ESI's
(2 Rt Transforaminal,1 lumbosacral,3rd one numbed tailbone little
5/9 - Discogram - shows Tear L4 w/ significant leak onto nerves, DDD
Performing doc oversedated, False Negative
7/8- Dept Head ClCl consult
7/28 - ClevelClinic for Facet Injection, changed to Caudal Epidural after seeing xray of displaced coccyx;also,coccygeal manipulation
8/12 - 2nd caudal inj/no coccyx manip
8/14 -coccyx manip AGAIN
9/25 sched appt to begin tx on Disc Tear @ ClevelClinic
I think it must have to do with the nerve compression. I get those burning, shooting pains. At times they can be really bad when chaning from sitting to standing, or when I just stand still. It lessens if I pace the floor. Sitting at my desk at work is really hard. I tried tilting my monitor up and setting my keyboard on top of something, but found that standing still was even worse. Sometimes its so sudden and severe, it's like someone grabbed me in a burning hot vise in my hips, buttocks and it shoots down through my legs.
What is really confusing is that there are still times when it's not as big of a problem.
I know you're eager for your surgery. I hope it goes well.
Have there been any postings about how SharonJ is doing since her surgery?
Anything is of help believe me hehe. But it does sound similar, i mean we were both just standing still. Wouldn't it be so much easier to relate it to something if we were actually moving or doing something that may compromise the existing injury? Bizarre.
I figure it must have something to do with the nerve compression but I just dont understand how. (I am one of tose people that need to know absolutely everything that is going on and why it is going on - because I am an exercise scientist i think, its just my nature).
I am seeing my surgeon on October 8, thats two weeks prior to my surgery date. However, I have been having migranes for the past 3 weeks so the GP is keeping a close eye on me, I might bring it up with her.
How have you been?
The pain I am experiencing does sound similar to yours, it will happen for no reason and it burns. The funny thing is, when it happens I dont panic or anything I just stay really still, I think its more so I can feel whats going on so I can report it to my doctor.
It feels like boiling water being poured down my back but on the inside. Lately it is moving a lot more out of the range it used to be in though. I am pretty sure it's related to the nerve compression but as I was explaining to Karen, I don't understand how it happens, that is what causes it because I'm not moving at the time. I also noticed last night when I went to bed I had a lingering burning pain in my buttocks and my back was quite sore. Generally I turn my electric blanket on if my back is sore and the heat relieves it a bit.
This morning I have a dull ache in my right leg and my lumbar is sore. Perhaps this is what happens following a nerve compression flare up?
It was great to hear from you Stillwater. Anymore thoughts on your surgery decision?
You got me thinking about how bizarre it IS when we're just 'standing there' and the pain can be so bad. I wonder if - the nerve has compressed into a certain 'position' if you will....while doing other things and Standing just happens to be the thing that 'releases' the nerve....or vice versa. http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/confused.gif
What makes me think that is how many posts I've read about post-surgery (no pun intended! ) people are having all these nerve issues while the nerves are trying to get back into their right place/shape/form, whatever.
I don't know. Just a thought, though. What do you think? Sorry to hear about your migraines. Like you don't have enough to worry about, eh? http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
The symptoms you describe are so often due to a torn disk. When the disk tears, the nucleus gel-like stuff inside oozes out (thus-loss of disk height). Well, this ooze is caustic to our nervous system. So it feels like acid is being poured and then burns all the way down as it slides down the sciatic nerve (that's how it feels anyway). Or boiling water, or it feels like you are literally on fire. The ooze can happen at any time. After a bend....walking...getting out of bed...after any twists or turns (I'm only talking reaching for a phone or a pan or something here)...or even after you have been standing for a while and shift feet. Mostly though...stress is the factor that causes the ooze to happen. Physical stress...from everything I mentioned above to a cough or a sneeze. Anything -- now doesn't that give you the warm and fuzzies?...sorry http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
A discogram with CT scan will reveal if your disk has a tear. That's the only disk diagnostic tool out there that is realistic and very good. But that is a decision you have to make, as that is not a fun procedure to go through. It is done when a surgery is being determined or to be performed. Good luck to you.
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successtory
Oct 2000: Repetitive Stress Injury-Inverted Hernia
Feb 2001: MRI. Shows only slight bulge at L4-L5
Dec 2001: Discogram/CT scan shows Inverted Hernia at L5-S1. L4-L5 & L5-S1 ruptured in all 4 quadrants. Unable to walk.
Feb 2002: IDET, Nucleoplasty, Intra-Discal Injections
Sept 2002: Rated in the top 10% for successful patients. Retraining for new career.
Hi nice to meet you and thank you for your reply.
This is my work computer and I had typed a responce and sent it but I dont think it came up on the board so I am posting again, i apologise if it comes up twice.
Your reply sounds a lot like what I found out today, about nerve compression. Whilst at work I was talking to an exercise physio who also works in spinal rehab. She said that when the nerve is pinched or compressed that you do not actually have to do anything for pain to occur, it just comes on when it comes on.
But what Successtory posted I found very interesting and I thought that too could be a possability or perhaps both scenarios, I am not sure whether to contact my doctor about it or just wait until my next apt with him in early october, my fusion date in October 27.
hmm, tricky...
Thanks so much again for your reply, I very much appreciate the input.
Thank you so much for your reply I found it very interesting and I think you may be on the money when you say that the disc is torn.
My MRI shows that my L5S1 disc has collapsed, or the height has reduced greatly, the disc appears black on the MRI where the others come whiteish. I also have a compressed nerve at the L5S1 level as well so perhaps it may be a combination of the two.
From your description it sounds a lot like the disc fluid seeps out randomly is that right? and that is what the burning pain is? It sounds scary and that I can't really do much about it until my surgery date. My doctor is putting in a titanium disc and creating more room for my nerves.
Thnaks so much again for your reply it has been of great assistance. Everyone here is so good to spend the time to reply, it really helps to set the stress aside which I think is the cause of my Migranes which are getting better slowly but surely.
What successtory mentions is VERY interesting - since I Know I have a tear @ L4 w/ significant leak. So, my money is on that theory. Sadly, I may be looking @ surgery at some point... my doc has mentioned IDET on several occasions.
Yeah my surgeon said while I am not at the stage where surgery is an emergency it is something that I am not going to be able to avoid given the disc rupture and especially the nerve compression. My spondy is only a grade 1. I am not in nearly half the pain that some people hre are in and that sometimes makes me think I really dont need the surgery but then i remember a couple of things...
The surgeon is one of the top in his field in Australia, he said it is going to have to happen sooner or later so its best that i do it while I am young (23) and while I am still at home (my parents can look after me) and while my lifestyle permits it (i am still studying). I am studying to be an exercise physio/rehabilitation so my lifestyle will be active later and my job later may not permit an opportunity for the time needed to recover from surgery.
There's just the things I had to weight up, that and with nerve compression and disc rupture they are the kind of things you just dont want to leave alone as there really is nothing you can do (in terms of resting, meds) that can help with those kind of things (as far as I know).
So there's my speel for today hehe. Goodluck with any decisions you may come to regarding surgery Karen. As I tell everyone, the strand 'Good Fusion Outcomes Wanted' is the place to go if you're looking for assistance in making your decision.
Everyone on these boards are so helpful and I think it's because we are all in the same boat and even just posting your two cents worth might mean the world of difference to someone out there looking for advise.
Brooke: Bingo on the ooze theory on yours. When you said disk rupture...that's a tear that was "blown out" (by your hernia). The hernia is your nucleus busting out. It all makes sense. Yes it does go random-- sometimes it seeps out, sometimes it "zings" out (you will never forget those times because you are on the floor) if you were standing prior. I learned the signs, I dropped twice....but not a 3rd. I knew when the lava went down I had to go down with ice right then and there or I had no choice. I'd lose function in my right leg. But then I had all 4 quadrants in both my L4/L5 and L5/S1 ruptured by the time they operated. I wasn't walking for 2 months pre-surgery.
It started out as pin-pricks on the bottoms of my feet, then they turned to needles being inserted. All the while my legs would shake due to the fact that I was still standing. Then the feeling of hot ice picks being rammed up my heels was what finally made me stop walking and standing--that was the corker for me. I do believe that is when most of the ruptures "exploded", my body had had enough and that was that. Please listen to your body and look for the signs. NOTHING is worth being that incapacitated, I learned the hard way....you don't have to.
I think I will write up a "signs to look for" document some day for the progression of pain one goes through (at least with tears and ruptures)....since that is where I have experience. Doctors don't mention it or tell you, and the only place you will find it is here (really). Back pain is so individual, each person has a different reaction to different stimuli. But it seems tears and ruptures (anything where there is ooze out of disk) there is the same complaints- time and time again. The burning sensations, loss of foot or leg control, shaking of leg muscles due to weakness, pins and needles or worse on soles of feet (usually at the ball of foot or at the heels), muscle spasms that run from toes to nose (as I dubbed them)....well, anyway....it seems that is more often the case when reading posts about each person's pain and symptoms. Now I've prolly freaked you out and I am sorry if I have---did not mean to. But I tell the truth as I see it, and I would ALWAYS welcome a different point of view...since I don't see "all". hehe
Ice is the BEST thing to do for yourselves -- by icing you are (1) "putting the fire out", (2) reducing the swelling and giving nerves a moment to breath (3) slowing down the flow of fluids (so you may not leak out so fast) and (4) numbing the area for about 20 minutes...and that's 20 minutes of "oh yeah-my back" that you didn't have before.
Good luck to you guys and I'll be checking back later. Take it easy!
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successtory
Oct 2000: Repetitive Stress Injury-Inverted Hernia
Feb 2001: MRI. Shows only slight bulge at L4-L5
Dec 2001: Discogram/CT scan shows Inverted Hernia at L5-S1. L4-L5 & L5-S1 ruptured in all 4 quadrants. Unable to walk.
Feb 2002: IDET, Nucleoplasty, Intra-Discal Injections
Sept 2002: Rated in the top 10% for successful patients. Retraining for new career.
Thnaks again for your detailed input. It is much appreciated.
Wow, your situation sounds bad. Sometimes I feel I really should not complain. Luckily I have never collapsed from issues with my right leg. The worst I ever get is a really dull ache throughout the entire leg. When this ache is at its worst I had to lay on the ground on my side with my leg pulled as close to my body as I can (the pain of the stretch outweighs the ache in the leg.)
Besides the ache, I get the burning feeling we've discussed. Though this is getting worse, the worst being what brought me to create this strand. At worst it shocks me a little at the time it happens because the pain is sudden and it burns.stings. Perhaps these are very very early signs that things arn't good with the disc/nerve?
I think with sponylolisthesis when the vertebrae slips it pulls with it the disc either side of it and that must eventually cause the rupture/tear.
Do you know, when the disc appears 'black' on the MR1 and/or CT does that mean it has been compressed/ruptured?
Thanks again for your thoughts on this, it has been most helpful.
You talk of hot ice picks being rammed up your heels, and I'm wondering if that equates to the very painful feelings I get in the balls of my left foot. It just comes sometimes for no discernable reason, and makes it very difficult, nearly impossible to walk. And then later, it will be gone.
Quote:
Originally posted by successtory: Then the feeling of hot ice picks being rammed up my heels was what finally made me stop walking and standing--that was the corker for me. I do believe that is when most of the ruptures "exploded", my body had had enough and that was that.
Brooke: There are a couple of things "blackness" on an MRI could be. Scar tissue of some kind is one, and another is if a dye was used it could be leaking out and around to blacken out the film in those areas. There are also just "general masses" that build up sometimes (they are called gangleons-sp?). Nobody really knows why they form (sometimes doctors call them fatty tumors or calcium deposits). They could be just a bunch of cells that clumped together and formed a mass. But blackness on film means something more solid, I think. What did the doctor say about it?
Stillwater: Yes....the same could be described for the balls of the feet as well. You know the test where they ask you to walk on the balls of your feet and then only on the heels of your feet? THAT is the test they run to determine nerve damage. Which is what I had and what Brooke is unfortunately heading for. Of course, we are ALL damaging our nerves when we continue to do the activities that are causing us pain (we have to walk to the toidy after all) or wherever---we ARE trying to live some kind of life.
Good luck you guys. All I can say is listen to your body. Please don't push it like I did. I am OK now. I'll never be 100% again, but I am MUCH better off than I was pre-surgery. I'm walking. That is much better off. I still deal with pain on a daily basis. But it RARELY gets over a 5 anymore--I can hang with that.
My biggest thing now is to keep this past the 7 year mark. I have read again and again about successful surgeries being that way for 7 years and then WHAM, another surgery is necessary. Always 7 years. Hmmm, doesn't have anything to do with the fact that our bodies, minds and spirits CHANGE every 7 years does it? hehe Ah well, life goes on....I'm just trying to remain a part of it. Take care all.
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successtory
Oct 2000: Repetitive Stress Injury-Inverted Hernia
Feb 2001: MRI. Shows only slight bulge at L4-L5
Dec 2001: Discogram/CT scan shows Inverted Hernia at L5-S1. L4-L5 & L5-S1 ruptured in all 4 quadrants. Unable to walk.
Feb 2002: IDET, Nucleoplasty, Intra-Discal Injections
Sept 2002: Rated in the top 10% for successful patients. Retraining for new career.
today was not good I had to work at 6 and right now in isolated little Australia it is quite cold and windy on and off. Hence I was very cold at work (because on top of that we have to have aircon on and fans as it is a gym) and boy did my back let me know about it. By 9am I was 'stuck' I guess all the muscles just jammed up trying to support my back and from shivering in the cold. I went home and had a hot bath to try and relax. Tonight will be a rough one i think
Successtory: from memory (i remember at the time I found it hard to relay the information as I was shocked that surgery was the bottom line, i think I got stuck on that and didnt take in much else. He was explaining it all to my father as he doesnt know much about these things and the doctor said that there wasa reduction in disc height. Hmm, i'm just going through my reports I'll have a look at the MRI (im a visual person, i can remember what he was pointing at, and i'll post again.
Unfortunately I only have a 20 minute time limit on internet as I have used up my time for the month. Be back soon.....
__________________
October 2003 PLIF for L5S1 Spondy
May 2004 PLIF revision RHBMP2
Ok well it seems I have forgotten exactly what the doctor was reffering too but on the MRI all the discs are white in the middle with the L5S1 being black. It is my understanding that the sciatic nerve exits down the leg at the L5S1 and therefore perhaps it is the slip itself that is causing this nerve pain.
Does the disc become damaged with spondylolisthesis? I mean as the vertenrae slips does it pull with it the disc. I would have thought it does because the disc is 'sewn' on with a connective type tissue. So perhaps it is both elements causing the pain.
Successtory, I think you'll get through the seven year barrier! How has your life changed with the surgery? Are there things that you find you can no longer do? Or, things that you can now do that you couldn't before? Did you have to make lifestyle changes?
Your nerve pain sounds horrible compared to mine as does stillwaters.
Hi Stillwater, how have you been? What does you MRI's and CT's show up with regards to your nerves? as it sounds like your pain is nasty as well.
Brooke, my MRI, CT and myelogram all show severe spinal stenosis and grade one spondolythesis. The dye in my spine for the myelogram and CT apparently couldn't get through, due to the compression, and just barely trickled. The myelogram was especially painful. I hope I don't ever have to do that again!
Successtory, I haven't been able to walk on my heels, because I can't "heel-toe" with my left foot. I've been able to sort of walk on my toes, but lose my balance and start falling, probably because my left foot is numb.
Again, Successtory, you talk about the 7 year mark. That is one reason I have hestitated. You are all just young puppies, but in 7 years I'll be 70!! That thought is beyond my comprehension. And I know I won't want surgery again at age 70.
A year ago, I asked the orthopedic dr if I was doing any damage by continuing to walk my dog, even when it hurts really badly. He said no, and that the exercise was good. So, we are still walking, just not very far sometimes. We always get a walk in before I go to work, and another walk at night. Up until a year and a half ago, we were walking a couple of miles at a time. I can't walk nearly that far now -- but she needs to walk, and it keeps me active. I also throw a lot of tennis balls! I wonder how soon I can do that after surgery. Throwing tennis balls is a necessity at my house.
I am so sorry that your stenosis is so bad and I think it is great that you still do what you do regardless. I understand your concern about the seven year mark and the possability of having surgery and how well your body would cope with it. What does your doctor say about this?
I guess it always sounds strange when someone tells you to continue doing something even if it hurts, I know if it were me I couldnt help but wonder, 'but how can this not be doing any damage?'
Burning sensation in back, legs and/or buttocks? 
,
Some of my worst times are when I'm standing still for any length of time i.e. making potato salad....when I was done one day, I was 'done' for the rest of the day - that's how bad a flare I had! Stupid potatos! 
