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Old 08-18-2005, 11:54 AM   #1
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Some interesting reading

[url]http://thestreetspirit.org/August2005/interview.htm[/url]

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Old 08-18-2005, 12:30 PM   #2
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Re: Some interesting reading

A very interesting if one-sided article!

In a review I found the following re: Robert Whitaker's book referred to in the article:
Like Scientologists and other antipsychiatry groups, Whitaker exaggerates the adverse effects of antipsychotic drugs, saying, for example, that tardive dyskinesia occurs "in a high percentage of patients." He also includes statements that are patently erroneous. For example, he claims that "even moderately high doses of haloperidol were linked to violent behavior," when, in fact, studies have shown that haloperidol and other antipsychotics decrease violent behavior in individuals with schizophrenia. Many of Whitaker's errors originate in his liberal footnoting of Dr. Peter Breggin, who has acknowledged having received support from Scientology, as a source.
Also, I only found "Bipolar" mentioned once in the whole article.
And that referred to what is usually called Type III Bipolar - triggered by an SSRI for example.
No mention of Type I or Type II Bipolar at all!!

I agree that meds for situational depression are overdone. Most people won't sit still for therapy. I even have questions about the huge numbers of ADHD kids. And yet I have no doubt that there are people who legitimately have that disorder.

Whenever I run across a totally anti-psychiatry or anti-medication person first I think about Scientologists - and then I wonder if any of these people have had mental illness in their family. They just don't seem to have a clue what a mentally ill person deals with - inside their head and out.

Thank God for the doctor who put me on lithium.

 
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Old 08-18-2005, 06:10 PM   #3
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Re: Some interesting reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth6:11
A very interesting if one-sided article!

In a review I found the following re: Robert Whitaker's book referred to in the article:
Like Scientologists and other antipsychiatry groups, Whitaker exaggerates the adverse effects of antipsychotic drugs, saying, for example, that tardive dyskinesia occurs "in a high percentage of patients." He also includes statements that are patently erroneous. For example, he claims that "even moderately high doses of haloperidol were linked to violent behavior," when, in fact, studies have shown that haloperidol and other antipsychotics decrease violent behavior in individuals with schizophrenia. Many of Whitaker's errors originate in his liberal footnoting of Dr. Peter Breggin, who has acknowledged having received support from Scientology, as a source.
Also, I only found "Bipolar" mentioned once in the whole article.
And that referred to what is usually called Type III Bipolar - triggered by an SSRI for example.
No mention of Type I or Type II Bipolar at all!!

I agree that meds for situational depression are overdone. Most people won't sit still for therapy. I even have questions about the huge numbers of ADHD kids. And yet I have no doubt that there are people who legitimately have that disorder.

Whenever I run across a totally anti-psychiatry or anti-medication person first I think about Scientologists - and then I wonder if any of these people have had mental illness in their family. They just don't seem to have a clue what a mentally ill person deals with - inside their head and out.

Thank God for the doctor who put me on lithium.
Seriously, I don't care if Scientology put out the article or the man on the moon did; what interests me is the science behind the findings, which I must say I've read the same from a large number of other sources; published research referances and mass media reporting, not just Scientology.

But no matter, like I said, I don't care about all that but I do care about the fact there is evidence of brain damage from the drugs (again, from many scientists and PHD's that are not Scientologists) that concerns me the most and that information is invaluable IMHO so that's why I chose to post it.....for those who might want it......if it does not serve you then that's ok with me.

 
Old 08-18-2005, 07:03 PM   #4
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Re: Some interesting reading

Actually it does a real disservice to people with a disease like Bipolar Disorder and the people here are done a real disservice being lumped in with AD takers for situational difficulties and children on Ritalin.

I notice that you've posted it on multiple sites. I don't know how you managed to get that approved too. I can see that it might apply to the depression board - as long as its not someone with clinical depression.

There is PROOF that the brain of a Bipolar patient is different on a PET scan. Do you have anyone with a bona fide mental illness in your family? If not, I understand a little better why you want to believe that all meds are the devil.

I feel very strongly about this. And about the science behind having Bipolar Disorder.
If you find some proof either way that is Bipolar specific I would welcome you back to share.

 
Old 08-18-2005, 07:24 PM   #5
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Re: Some interesting reading

Ruth- I agree with you. The article seemed to be aimed only towards anti-depressants and ADHD drugs, which, I'll admit 100%, are over-prescribed. It didn't say anything regarding the more common of bipolar disorder- I and II, and it does sound as if they were bashing all psychiatric meds. Obviously, bipolar disorder (especially bipolar I) and schizophrenia are the more severe mental illnesses, which need to be treated, regardless of the side effects. Still, I do agree that SSRI's and Ritalin are being over-prescribed: anytime a person says that they feel "sad" or their kid can't pay attention, the doctor hands them a prescription for Zoloft or Adderall... This isn't right either, because then people like the guy who wrote the article only see the misuse of the medications, and can't get past that, leaving us that need our meds to function in mundane tasks with a bad name. They should have been more specific and only address the causes where the meds are being handed out too quickly rather than bash the meds altogether. As you said, Ruth, you need your lithium, and God knows I need my Zoloft to fight off the OCD demons! And as far as bipolar III goes, I don't believe that the article mentioned that the people who develop bipolar III from an SSRI are most likely predisposed to bipolar disorder anyway, and very well might have become manic in the future. That doesn't sound like the SSRI's fault to me... Oh, and Jennita, I don't want you to think I'm being rude to you or anything; I think it's great that you provided us with the website, so if we were concerned, we could call attention to it. It also provided us with a great topic for debate!
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Old 08-18-2005, 10:34 PM   #6
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Re: Some interesting reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth6:11
Actually it does a real disservice to people with a disease like Bipolar Disorder and the people here are done a real disservice being lumped in with AD takers for situational difficulties and children on Ritalin.

I notice that you've posted it on multiple sites. I don't know how you managed to get that approved too. I can see that it might apply to the depression board - as long as its not someone with clinical depression.

There is PROOF that the brain of a Bipolar patient is different on a PET scan. Do you have anyone with a bona fide mental illness in your family? If not, I understand a little better why you want to believe that all meds are the devil.

I feel very strongly about this. And about the science behind having Bipolar Disorder.
If you find some proof either way that is Bipolar specific I would welcome you back to share.
Well, I do understand that the PET scans are not conclusive enough to use as a diagnostic tool. THere is also the issue of accuracy in determining if abnormalties are related to medications, past chemical use, etc. If they were in fact accepted as conclusive, they would most certainly use them as diagnostic tools before prescribing meds, alot like a blood test before prescribing insulin.

Many bi-polars have claimed that non-drug methods have helped them. There are new studies on this and even schizophrenia treatments that include amino acids and vitamins that show great promise. I think the message is that people need to know the options and reality of the lack of diagnostic tools which leads to sometimes lifelong error in using medications. If meds are working for you without adverse effects, tolerance issues or health issues, then you are one of the lucky ones and that's a good thing.

But others do have many problems with meds so the info needs to be out there IMHO...

Last edited by Jennita; 08-18-2005 at 10:51 PM.

 
Old 08-18-2005, 10:49 PM   #7
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Re: Some interesting reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyLuvr1920
Ruth- I agree with you. The article seemed to be aimed only towards anti-depressants and ADHD drugs, which, I'll admit 100%, are over-prescribed. It didn't say anything regarding the more common of bipolar disorder- I and II, and it does sound as if they were bashing all psychiatric meds. Obviously, bipolar disorder (especially bipolar I) and schizophrenia are the more severe mental illnesses, which need to be treated, regardless of the side effects. Still, I do agree that SSRI's and Ritalin are being over-prescribed: anytime a person says that they feel "sad" or their kid can't pay attention, the doctor hands them a prescription for Zoloft or Adderall... This isn't right either, because then people like the guy who wrote the article only see the misuse of the medications, and can't get past that, leaving us that need our meds to function in mundane tasks with a bad name. They should have been more specific and only address the causes where the meds are being handed out too quickly rather than bash the meds altogether. As you said, Ruth, you need your lithium, and God knows I need my Zoloft to fight off the OCD demons! And as far as bipolar III goes, I don't believe that the article mentioned that the people who develop bipolar III from an SSRI are most likely predisposed to bipolar disorder anyway, and very well might have become manic in the future. That doesn't sound like the SSRI's fault to me... Oh, and Jennita, I don't want you to think I'm being rude to you or anything; I think it's great that you provided us with the website, so if we were concerned, we could call attention to it. It also provided us with a great topic for debate!
-GatsbyLuvr1920-
Just one point: SSRi's can cause mania. Serotonin is excitatory and linked to vivid dreams and hallucination. It might surprize some people to know LSD and the rave drug X also increase serotonin. Of course, the degree is much greater and dangerous but increased serotonin or a buildup might not be a good thing and could lead to mania. Alot depends on the person, dose and the metabolism ability of that person which can change at times so there is no accurate way to know if there is too much/too little. Serotonin syndrome is the worst end of it but luckily that doesn't happen too much.

Anyway, I appreciate your input and hope you will do well and stay healthy! (Yes, I believe some people can do ok with meds and the benefit may in fact outweigh the risk). But as you pointed out, there is alot of prescribing going on these days that is questionable so we must consider alternative news always.

 
Old 08-19-2005, 10:22 AM   #8
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Re: Some interesting reading

Of course SSRI's can cause mania, but not in everybody. For example, I'm 18, the peak years for developing bipolar disorder, and I've been on Zoloft for three years now. Personally, I think that if I had any chance of becoming manic due to the SSRI, it would have happened by now, especially since both my doctor and I were thinking that I might have mild bipolar disorder as I have strange sleeping habits and can have mood swings. However, the Zoloft takes care of my mood swings (which I attribute to my anxiety), and now I'm on 250 mg, and I haven't been more talkative or have had racing thoughts, other than the racing obsessions that I always get! And, yes, excess serotonin would cause manic-like symptoms because it's the "mood" neurotransmitter, and people with a serotonin deficiency develop depression, but bipolar disorder is also caused by dopamine, the only neurotransmitter that I've heard of causing psychosis. I didn't know that about ecstasy, but I can't say that I'm surprised. Basically, what are the differences between ecstasy and mania? I can hardly find any... And, you are absolutely right about the questionable diagnoses. I know for a fact that I have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and panic attacks because I fit the descriptions perfectly, but I hid my anxiety disorders for 15 years because I didn't know anything was wrong. I was very against going on medication, as I have a fear of addiction, but I realized that I needed it. However, like I said, there does seem to be a lot of people out there who are diagnosed as having OCD because they like things to be "neat" and they like to be "clean." Unknowlegable doctors say: "Oh! OCD! Let's start you on an SSRI," when in reality, they might only have a mild case of OCPD, which isn't interfering with their lives. In my case, my OCD stops me from doing normal, everyday things, and as I've said, the over-prescribing and diagnosing of such disorders as OCD makes a lot of people assume that having OCD means that a person is neat and orderly. That's why I'm so sick of stereotypical shows like "Monk," which only reinforce this notion... Anyway, I'm not an advocate for taking a bunch of pills that aren't necessary. In my opinion, my problems only need an anti-obsessive drug coupled with CBT. I have a benzodiazepine, which I've only taken three times since I've gotten it because, I've had to deal so long with my panic without medication that I don't want to rely on a med that is highly addictive. For some people, though, who have panic disorder, they truly need the benzo everyday, but I don't; I've had so many panic attacks (which the Zoloft doesn't do anything for), that I would be more shaken if I didn't have one... My therapist wants me to maybe start on an atypical anti-psychotic to augment my OCD treatment, but I'm going to decline. This is where I draw the line- there's no reason for me to take it. It's called an anti-psychotic for a reason, and since I don't have refractory OCD, where the person believes their obsessions are true even when they're not obsessing, I see no need to take it. These have many side effects, despite having less than the originals like Haldol and Thorazine, and why would I take one for a problem I don't have? If I had bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, I wouldn't object at all, but for me, a med like Risperdal and Zyprexa doesn't seem to be the answer.
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Last edited by GatsbyLuvr1920; 08-19-2005 at 10:36 AM.

 
Old 08-19-2005, 10:44 AM   #9
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Re: Some interesting reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyLuvr1920
Of course SSRI's can cause mania, but not in everybody. For example, I'm 18, the peak years for developing bipolar disorder, and I've been on Zoloft for three years now. Personally, I think that if I had any chance of becoming manic due to the SSRI, it would have happened by now, especially since both my doctor and I were thinking that I might have mild bipolar disorder as I have strange sleeping habits and can have mood swings. However, the Zoloft takes care of my mood swings (which I attribute to my anxiety), and now I'm on 250 mg, and I haven't been more talkative or have had racing thoughts, other than the racing obsessions that I always get! And, yes, excess serotonin would cause manic-like symptoms because it's the "mood" neurotransmitter, and people with a serotonin deficiency develop depression, but bipolar disorder is also caused by dopamine, the only neurotransmitter that I've heard of causing psychosis. I didn't know that about ecstasy, but I can't say that I'm surprised. Basically, what are the differences between ecstasy and mania? I can hardly find any...
-GatsbyLuvr1920-
I'm glad you don't have mania. Sometimes, I've read, it's how the person is able to metabolize the drug; some people cannot metabolize as well and end up with too much serotonin. Also I've read that can change over time as the body ages so still be on the lookout.

IMHO, I also think some people simply cannot tolerate the effects of SSRi's, just like some people can't drink or react to other chemicals....even food for example as my husband gets terrible gas from tomato sauce but that same sauce is fine by my tummy. I can't eat tobasco, he can. So who's tummy is "normal", his or mine?

People have allergies too; sensitivities to things. So I think that just because someone gets manic on AD's does not necessarily make them bi-polar!!

I think it's drug reaction: I also saw a doctor on T.V. explaining that drug reactions and side effects can be immediate OR culmative, meaning they have and can happen after years on a med.

But most docs will not tell you any of this. It's just good to know it, just in case...be on guard but hopefully you will never have any problems but remember if you do to not assume it's just you, it could be the med. Don't let them tell you someday you are bi-polar without exploring the med cause, just in case hopefully all will stay as it is now

And you make an interesting point about dopamine so I wonder why they give dopamine drugs to ADD kids....no wonder alot of them eventually get a dual diagnosis of ADD and Bi-polar, eh?

I also think you are wise to decline the anti-psychotic; you can't let doctors continue to fill you full of drugs...if Zoloft is working for you that's all you need.

Last edited by Jennita; 08-19-2005 at 10:49 AM.

 
Old 08-19-2005, 11:02 AM   #10
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Re: Some interesting reading

Personally, I feel that a lot of times, kids who are diagnosed with ADHD and later turn out to have bipolar disorder, really just were manifesting manic-like symptoms that can be very similar to ADHD. Yes, sometimes, a person can have both disorders, and yes, someone can have ADHD and not be bipolar, but the doctors should test more thoroughly for early-onset bipolar disorder before giving the child a stimulant, which would make the manic person go even faster...
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Old 08-19-2005, 11:16 AM   #11
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Re: Some interesting reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyLuvr1920
Personally, I feel that a lot of times, kids who are diagnosed with ADHD and later turn out to have bipolar disorder, really just were manifesting manic-like symptoms that can be very similar to ADHD. Yes, sometimes, a person can have both disorders, and yes, someone can have ADHD and not be bipolar, but the doctors should test more thoroughly for early-onset bipolar disorder before giving the child a stimulant, which would make the manic person go even faster...
-GatsbyLuvr1920-
Yes, but there can be paradoxial reaction to any medication, or opposite effect, so alot of kids seem to calm down with stimulants. So they think all is well, the kid is ADD definately when it could not be the case. And you are right, testing is so uncertain. They need a definate biological test, like for diabetes. If they don't have that, they should be looking for other causes that are not biological.....

My nephew was diagnoised ADHD. He had some drug side effects my brother-in-law did not accept as the normal course of things like the doctor said(and wanted to increase the dose!) so my brother-in-law took my nephew off first Adderall, then Strattera. Now he takes nothing and what's strange is the next year, a new teacher made all the difference now he does fine in school; actually, he's very inventive and happy. Apparentely either his "biological" illness of ADHD vanished or he never had it. But my in-laws got the best testing because both of them are in the medical field, go figure. I do notice my in-laws are dealing with him differently now so it could also be a factor plus maturity seems to have finally set in....he was just a late bloomer in that area.

 
Old 08-19-2005, 08:09 PM   #12
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Re: Some interesting reading

Once again, this is the Bipolar board where mood stabilizers are used more than SSRI's and Ritalin for a chemical imbalance in the neurotransmitters of the brain - which is an organ of the body that is allowed to have its own problems - not just the pancreas w/diabetes. for example.
The brain can have an actual disorder.

May I ask if you are a scientologist? You mentioned amino acids & vitamins... Perhaps you've heard of the person who went off his lithium and went on the vitamin regimen. He committed suicide by walking into a lake. Once again, on this board there are people with a very real physiological illness..
Who didn't take drugs before their illness manifested.
Who have been helped by mood stabilizers and even ADs (altho I recommend the non-SSRI type) to live a full and productive life.

Granted - the depression board and the ADHD board would benefit from this. I just see way more harm done than good to tell people who have a brain disorder (part of which serves to convince us that we DON'T have a problem) that meds are bad. In fact it frankly can be dangerous...

Last edited by Ruth6:11; 08-20-2005 at 06:52 AM.

 
Old 08-19-2005, 08:38 PM   #13
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Re: Some interesting reading

Ruth- I agree with what you said about telling people with a mental illness that medicine can be potentially harmful, but wouldn't this also apply to depression and ADHD as well? Granted that going off medication for bipolar disorder is far more dangerous, but after all, they're also brain disorders which can be helped with medications. However, I do agree that the whole SSRI/Ritalin argument is better fought on those boards. After all, like you said, few bipolars take SSRI's for their depression... I seriously doubt that anyone will actually stop their meds from reading this and begin taking amino acids. I'd think that by now, someone with bipolar disorder or another mental illness would have already gone the holistic route. Jennita has every right to inform people of her opinion about the evils of psychiatric medication, but on these boards this information isn't going to change the opinions of those of us who are currently taking medication and doing well. Like you said in another post, I'd much rather take a medication that could have potentially dangerous side effects than have my life be a living hell without enjoyment, fighting obsessions all day long. I never want to relive what I had to go through when I was 12, and my Zoloft won't make me have to. If I get some awful cardiovascular problem from it, so what? At least the Zoloft will stop me from obsessing about my health! We know how miserable life can be without our medications- for you, it's destructive manias, and for me, it's tormenting obsessions. I do think that the alternative remedies that Jennita suggested might work for less severe cases, but in my opinion, the ranking of severity in mental illness is as follows: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder/severe major depression, OCD. These are the disorders that can literally ruin a person's life and stop them from progressing and achieving success. If my Zoloft can help me overcome these barriers, and your lithium does the same for you, I say, go for it!
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Last edited by GatsbyLuvr1920; 08-19-2005 at 08:50 PM.

 
Old 08-20-2005, 07:02 AM   #14
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Re: Some interesting reading

Thanks Gatsby - I was drawing a distinction between diagnosed with a mental illness and

1) Depression that is situational (not clinical).

2) ADHD because a kid is too disruptive in class.

I would welcome Jennita's comments on mood stabilizers here, and I obviously believe in her freedom of speech. But this article just doesn't apply to this board.

That's it. I've expressed myself and hope that everyone interested will read a little deeper and research the medical research done on Bipolar Disorder.
Other than that, I would love to see AD's no longer prescribed for grieving people because they are "crying too much". Now that's abuse of medication...
Thanks - I'm done.

Last edited by Ruth6:11; 08-20-2005 at 07:03 AM.

 
Old 08-20-2005, 07:13 AM   #15
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Re: Some interesting reading

That's exactly how I feel! Oh, you like things to be orderly? Well, you must have OCD- here's some Zoloft. Your grandfather just died and you're crying? Must be PTSD- here's some Welbutrin. Your child doesn't want to do his homework? Must be ADHD- here's some Ritalin... That makes me sooo mad! It just seems that a lot of these superfluous cases of meds are prescribed by PCP's who really don't have much knowledge in psychiatric illness. Instead of just handing out a prescription for every minor symptom, send the person for a psychiatric evaluation! And, I hope to be a neuropsychiatrist in the future to do research on the biological nature of mental illness, so I totally believe in such things as bipolar people having increased activity in the limbic system when manic and obsessive-compulsives having increased activity in their basal ganglia. Hopefully, some day, we can find an actual cure and the real cause of mental illness so the stigma will be gone, and people will actually believe that we have a serious medical condition that we're not just making up in our heads to get attention... Hope you're doing well, and write back if you want to talk some more! God bless!
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