One of the recurring themes on this board is the harsh treatment doctors regularly come in for. There is a huge amount of scepticism, bitterness, even hatred. This appears to stem from a few things -
- doctors who have mistreated or misdiagnosed
- doctors who appear to have been motivated by money
- doctors who do not understand implications of tmj
- doctors who say they know what they are doing - but seemingly don't,
And various other reasons
Now I would never dare suggest that the experiences people have had should be excused. And they should not be.
But sometimes I am left wondering if we are not a little harsh on many doctors. TMJ is by definition, a very difficult condition to diagnose and especially difficult to treat. The various surgeries that have been developed and which have proven to be disastrous were created in order to help people. But mistakes were made - and no doubt continue to be made.
Many peolpe complain that their doctor (s) do not fully appreciate the suffering they are going through. This is probably true - but then again,another theme on here is how friends and family also fail to appreciate the level of suffering so can we always expect a doctor to be different?
What doctors and dentists do need is educating. Especially dentists who contiue to carry out proceedures that are devasting to the tmj. This was the cause of my particular problem. Serious research and education is needed in this area.
The trouble is that the anatomy of the head and neck are very minute. However, the anatomy IS known, yet many doctors appear to disregard the research that says XYZ cranial nerve can have XYZ effect. For instance, the vagus can have an effect on the smooth muscles of the bronchial tubes. The Trigeminal on so many other things etc. Many doctors either do not know this or do not want to know it.
Of course, many doctors follow the "obvious" processes. If you present with dizziness, ear problems and pain, then the natural thing to do is send you to an ent. However, not all ents are aware enough to send you onwards to an oral surgeon should they find nothing wrong with you. This is where the education is needed.
So in short, I would say we should be a little more understanding to the doctor, who confronted with a chronic condition like TMJ, is unable to help much more than prescribing painkillers. THey do not like such helplessness!
I can appreciate what you're saying. There does seem to be a general lack of trust toward doctors from the members of this board. I can't speak for those who have undergone needless surgery only to be in worse shape than before, but I can speak for myself.
I suffered for over four years before I could even get a doctor to ACKNOWLEDGE that I had a problem. I didn't expect pity from my doctor, nor did I expect understanding. All I wanted was someone to acknowledge that I was indeed in pain. One doctor suggested my problem was caused by anxiety, another that the dizziness I experience is simply caused by hyperventilating. Yet another doctor, an ENT, after doing a full work-up "predicted" that I would be feeling better soon.
I was fortunate enough to find a dentist who specializes in TMJ dysfunction (thanks to this board, and Marlene, in particular). So far, he's been unable to help me. I don't blame him, and I hold no bitterness toward him. He's the only doctor who has attempted to do anything sensible for me. He has advised me that I need to receive treatment on my neck before he can help me with my jaw. So here I go again....making more phonecalls, trying to find a doctor who understands. It's interesting how now that I have a diagnosis of TMJ dysfunction EVERY doctor I contact knows EXACTLY how to treat my problem. The physiotherapist says to treat it this way, the chiropracter says to treat it that way. And to every one of them, THEIR way is the only way. I quit seeing an osteopath after two visits because he insisted on manipulating my jaw when I'd asked him not to.
So yes, I think my scepticism is justified. I understand that TMJ dysfunction is not taught in the general curriculum of dental school or medical school, so I can understand how so many people can go misdiagnosed for years. You're right, there does need to be more education. Those of us who suffer from TMJD are exceptional because we're forced to do our own research, and often, make our own diagnosis. I am not about to put all of my trust into a doctor who has not been trained properly in the diagnosis and treatment of TMJ dysfunction. Doctors don't like feeling helpless, but on the other hand, they also don't like being told how to treat their patients. So it's a double-edged sword.
I hope this helps to explain at least why I hold negative thoughts toward doctors.
Crystall, I completely understand why some people have a wariness of doctors. I think I made that point really.
The issues are complicated. Doctors and therapists of varying kinds like to see acute conditions they can identify and treat successfully.This is their motivation.Things that a are more complex, like tmj, are harder and more frustrating for them I suspect. Lots of them really do not know what the implications and complexities are.
As for your neck, I would suspect this is a very good diagnosis...the neck is very often involved in tmj. Indeed, neck injuries often start it.
Your osteopath wanted to manipulate your jaw becuase, I suspect, he believed that the joint and nerves affected by it needed to be re-aligned or whatever. No doubt this is painful, but that is the treatment he felt best. Personally, there are nor practitioners who know the anatomy of the head and neck (or any anatomy for that matter) than osteopaths. They spend five years minimum, solid, studying msucles, nerves and bones..I think I might trust them above all others firstly. They might not always be able to help but if non surgical treatment is going to work, then I think osteopathy is the most likely to succeed. However, you must do what you feel is right of course.
I am not criticising people who have concerns about the doctors they have come across..this is an important distinction!
It is apparent that you are knowledgeable about osteopathy, and have done some research on TMJD.
However, I believe you may have "missed the boat" on the purpose of this board and the posts that are made.
Have you possibly perceived expressions of pain, fear, and a hopelessness of those that have been mutilated and then turned away by the mutilators, as bitterness and hatred? (And the others who have not been mutilated, but can not get help, they reach a point of hopelessness, too. Not hatred.)
Is it possible that the skepticism you sense comes from, and I quote (MichaelV 12/29) "What Doctors and Dentists need is educating; The anatomy IS known, yet many doctors appear to disregard the research; (and my favorite) Many doctors do not know this or they do not want to know it."?
I believe our complaints of Doctors not understanding our suffering is totally justified. (Many of them go to school and train much longer than osteopaths.)Most of them work in hospital conditions as residents long before they get into their Specialties. There's all kinds of suffering there. I would think that at some point, they would be able to look at a swollen, misshapened, tear stained face and know the patient is suffering.
None of my family and friends are physicians, but they have watched for the last 25 years and they see what has happened to me, how my life has been almost destroyed by some of these Doctors and they have no training what so ever. They do ,however, listen and care.
I BELIEVE THIS IS THE KIND OF TREATMENT THAT A LOT OF US WHO HAVE FEW OPTIONS LEFT ARE LOOKING FOR. SOMEONE TO LISTEN TO OUR AGONY, TO CARE THAT WE HAVE BEEN HURT BY THOSE THAT TAKE AN OATH "TO DO NO HARM", AND TO AT LEAST TRY TO HELP. ALL WHO POST ON THIS BOARD NEED HELP OR THEY WOULD NOT BE HERE.
It is hard for me to be understanding to those who used me and countless others as experiments in orthodontic and surgical procedures that they knew could cause long-term, life-long, irreversible and iotragenic damage. They did not tell us any of these facts. We did not sign releases saying this damage would be OK.
We were at their mercy. That's helplessness!!
AND THEY DID KNOW. Read Dentalworld 1963-2002.( It takes a while) They knew long before the late 70's, when surgical treatment of TMJS became so very popular. If they could read, they knew TMJD and the surgical procedures would affect our entire bodies. They did the procedures anyway.
There are many papers written connecting the whole body to the TMJ problem, some as old as dirt. This concept is not new. Most Doctors and Surgeons who say they can treat TMJD just have not taken the time to make the connection.
Gray's Anatomy 1918
Dr. James Costen 1936 (Costen's Syndrome)
Dr. Harold Gelb 1947 Tuft's Univ.
Dr. Arlen 1970
(all of these papers are for public view and educational purposes on the web)
And there are hundreds of others.
If TMJ is too complex for any Physician, Surgeon , Dentist, Chiro, PT, Osteopath, Etc. and they do not know the implications of the treatment they are prescribing, they need to get off the "Gravy Train".
We need Specialists who know what they are doing. We can not afford any more trial & error Medicine.
You speak of frustration, I have no sympathy for them.
If they are frustrated because they don't know what to do, they need to LEARN.
Frustration is not feeling my husband's tender kiss since 1988. First Sagittal Split to cure TMJ. I have been numb from the nose down for almost 15 years. This cannot be fixed and will never go away. Severe nerve damage. I do not hate the Surgeon, we are friends. He did quit surgery for TMJ. He knows it does not work.
So Michael, if you read this post and possibly others that will follow, maybe you will understand some of the venting, anger, FRUSTRATION, fears and pleas for information and help. This is a "Support Board". If you see a little Doctor bashing along the way, I would not get overly concerned. If I had access to all of these people's experiences 20 years ago, I would not be typing this post.
I think all of the people on this board are intelligent enough to read the posts, take what information they think might be helpful in their particular case and use it prudently. Your posts regarding Osteopathic treatment has been interesting and I'm sure will be helpful to many. But not all.
I'm not really sure what the intent of your post was suppose to be. Are your reaffirming your confidence in Osteopathic Treatment? Do you not think compassion as well as information on treatments is appropriate for a "Support Board"? Why does the Doctor bashing bother you and why do you defend them and bash a Dentist?
I'm very serious with these questions. I really do not get the point of your post.
There is no hatred here, only hurt. Did you misunderstand?
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 12-29-2002).]
The only doctor I harbor any ill feelings for is the doctor that said to me, "There is something wrong, we don't know what it is or how to treat it, so, isn't it about time you quit seeing doctors and learned to live with the pain?" I was so devastated it was months before I saw another specialist.
I do believe that if a specialist doesn't help me or can't help me, I should see another specialist until I find someone who can help me.
I believe for the most part doctors and dentists do the best they can. However, as patients, we should not be intimidated. We are in charge of our own health and our own treatment. If a mechanic can't fix my car, if a plumber can't fix my drain, if a store doesn't sell a product I want, I go somewhere else. If a medical specialist can't help me, doesn't help me, or can't convince me that his/her treatment plan is right for me, I go somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with that.
I have been in the medical profession for 25 yrs. (now semi-retired from nursing). I've seen "both sides" of doctors - as a patient and as a co-worker. The frustrating part that I found with getting my own case of TMJ "properly/correctly" diagnosed was the "old school" of medical thinking. For example, my own family doctor (whom I used to work with) at one time referred me to a Professor and Dean of the Faculty of Dentistry at a University Hospital. He did absolutely NO tests whatsoever, and concluded that I MAY have a "slight case" of TMJ. Now, nothing against "older" physicians, but this guy should have retired 15-20yrs. ago!! Did I think he was an idiot? To be honest, YES! Did I think he knew what he was doing? NO!
Yet another "specialist" my doctor referred me to was a Dr. in Otology, Neurotology, Facial Nerve Disorders, Skull Base Surgery. He was the head of a Dizziness Clinic at the same University Hospital. While he did run a battery of tests, HE DIDN'T LISTEN TO WHAT I HAD TO SAY!!! While he may be "tops in his field", in my estimation, "He flunked Bedside Manner 101"!! While "discussing" my case with his resident out in the hallway, my husband just "happened" to overhear them mention TMJ - but they never mentioned this to ME or in the report sent to my family doctor! That's the only thing that started me down the right path to finding out what the **** was the matter with me! Needless to say, I told my doctor that he REALLY needed to update his referral list!
I believe that a lot of the frustration with the TMJ sufferers here is doctors/dentists NOT REALLY LISTENING to what they're telling them - THAT's what makes you think maybe you really ARE going crazy!
I saw numerous other specialists before getting the right diagnosis. Do I hold a grudge against the ones who treated me like I was a person and not just a "disease entity", even though they didn't correctly diagnose my condition? No, I don't. Do I hold a grudge against the ones who treated me like I was some kind of "hypochondriac"? Yes, I do. (It's funny, the ones I told that I was a nurse treated me with a little more "respect" if you will, than the ones I didn't tell!?)
Doctors are not "Gods", they are human beings the same as everyone, and therefore, they do make mistakes. But it's the ones who refuse to admit to those mistakes, or to work WITH their patient on arriving at a satisfactory solution to their problem that I will not waste my time on. We as patients need to think of ourselves as "consumers" to health care. If a doctor doesn't like it when you ask questions, a referral, a second opinion, etc. - tough! I go elsewhere until I DO get the answers!
(the resident success story - because the "squeaky wheel gets the grease"!)
I do not think I have missed the boat at all with respect to the purpose of this board. I have been reading it, posting infrequently, for quite sometime now. I am fully aware of what people desire from the place and what they often get in return.
My post was perfectly clear in subject - your response merely confirmed the principles I was discussing. People have developed, and clealry in your long running case, quite a deep scepticism of doctors. And in many cases, rightly so. I am not "defending" doctors !
"I believe our complaints of Doctors not understanding our suffering is totally justified. (Many of them go to school and train much longer than osteopaths.)"
Well actually the point about osteopaths is that they train in the field of anatomy for five years..not the whole medical spectrum. And I think in my original post and other responses you will find that I think these complaints are justified.
Your entire post demnostrates really what I was trying to debate here. You firmly believe that doctors knowingly did things to you that caused you great misery. I think this is possible, but I do believe that deliberately causing suffering is rare. And when you suspect they are "experimenting" on you, there may certainly have been an element of that, but with good intention. After all, new treatments and procedures - designed as they are to help - do not always work.
"If TMJ is too complex for any Physician, Surgeon , Dentist, Chiro, PT, Osteopath, Etc. and they do not know the implications of the treatment they are prescribing, they need to get off the "Gravy Train"."
Here again you bring into the argument the notion that they all see your suffereing merely in relation to how much money they can make from you. Of course, in some cases this may well be true. But how are these physicians to learn the complexities of tmj? They need educating for sure, they need to see people and yes,listen to them and of course they need to do research...and even the specialists you crave will need to conduct "trial and error". It is an inevitability. Many people on here have recounted stories of how they were using experimental techniques and how it had helped them. You yourself recently recounted how your dentist, who had been researching tmj was trying a new kind of splint on you - and how it was already helping? This is all I have been suggesting? So I am not sure where the problem is.
You appear to have taken the original post as a personal attack on you and others which of course it is not. You ask what the point of it was - well that can be found in the last couple or three paragraphs. It was simply a discussion opener. Doctors are not, as was pointed out, gods. But neither are they all the evil experimenters. You also seem to think that the post was in some way an attack on the principles of this board. I have to say I think your last paragraph is absurdly patronising Sue but you say you are serious with the questions so I will answer them...
"Doctor bashing" as you put it is of no real consequence to me. I observe it going on and thought about why it might be happening.
I do not "bash" a dentist. I simply pointed out that dentists (who caused my problem) also need education - not just in how to treat tmj (how DO you treat it after all??) but in how what they do can actually cause the problem.
I am perplexed as to what leads you to suggest that I do not think "compassion" has a place on this board or elsewhere? I am not prepared to list my "compassion" credentials.
My original post was made in an honest attempt to discuss the issues surounding medical support for the conditions people are suffering. You seem to have taken great exception to my taking a rational and reasoned approach to the matter. The fact that I have does not in any way mean I have no compassion, no sympathy. Whilst my problem is nothing like as bad as yours (yet) you should also remember that I too have a condition - caused by the medical profession - with which I am struggling and which I find disabling. I am sitting here at five in the morning typing this because I had trouble sleeping.
[This message has been edited by MichaelV (edited 12-30-2002).]
I can totally understand the point your making about how bad we talk about the doctors and how bad they treated us or what they did, but can you blame us for complaining? heck it makes us feel better to vent..lol..
All I wish is that these doctors knew more about TMJ and how it affects are life every moment of everyday. I wish so much they knew a way to make all of us better, but they dont as of now! I know there has to be gunni pigs out there that have to be use as "test dummies" for the treatment and cure of TMJ, but there are alot of people on this board that I really feel for, that will probably suffer for the rest of there life and are worse off then they were before they even had treatment .
I am not sure if you suffer from TMJ now or are a pre-suffer and if you came across doctors that have help you though your journey with tmj,It is always good to hear a positve story, I just know a lot of us have had bad experinces with doctors that say they can help us but cant!
I see your point how we talk bad about these doctors & Dentist and your right, they really need more educating, but do you understand that most of us have had bad experinces with doctors/dentist and complain because we believe they are the cause of are trouble.
I have gone to so many doctors I have lost count and NOT one has been able to help me. When it comes to TMJ most Doctors are Idiots...I know you probably disagree but I have came across nothing but jerks....and doctors/dentist that say there is nothing they can do and I will have to live with this pain for the rest of my life, If doctors really understood what we were going though they would be more caring and understanding,Why arent they? Well the ones I have came across are so rude! Well I just wanted to add my two cents in...
My tmj problem principally relates to hearing/ENT problems, some pain but very disabling dizziness in particular.
I think the reasons I raised it are manifold; I completely understand that some doctors deal with their inability to help by being flippant and even aggressive, or dismissive. I belieev they lack knowledge, and I said as much. I feel there are some who feel enormously frustrated too. But the one thing I have not siad is that people DO NOT have a reason to feel angry about doctors. I do take issue, at times, with the suggestion that doctors are almost universally uncaring or ignorant. People know from their own experiences that there is no miracle cure for this. I have found relief and understanding through osteopathy - and have said as much here many times. I also believe that if more people had access to it earlier onin their tmj hourney, they might not have gotten so bad. But that is another story.
There has been a bit of a knee jerk reaction to my post and the last thing I wanted or expected was to get a bit of a flaming!
However, there you go. I will think twice before discussing anything in an abstract, or analytical way in future.
I thought I'd weigh in on this discussion. It's a very good one, and one which strikes a chord with me, based on what I've been through with Tmjd, over the past 12 years.
I think I'd have to agree with many points, raised by all of the posters who've contributed to this thread.
- I believe that some dentists invest a lot of time and energy into understanding the causes of Tmjd, learning to treat it, and taking the time to really communicate with their patients, while others do not
- I think there is much good Tmjd knowledge out there for the taking now ( eg always use splint therapy treatment before equilibration treatment). However, there are many areas in which good Tmj dentists still disagree (eg Is 'Centric relation' the best position for the joints to be in ? Is mounting a splint on a certain articulator, needed to make the best splint ? Is relaxing the muscles, prior to an adjustment, necessary for an effective adjustment ?) Some dentists focus on 'the joints', some on 'the muscles', some on 'the bite', and fortunately some on the importance of all of these parts of the Tmj system, working together in harmony
- I believe it's important, no essential, for us to forgive dentists who have mistreated us, showed a lack of compassion, or have been negligent in their duties. This isn't always easy for me, bu I think it brings healing, maybe not to my body, but to my spirit
- I believe that we can recognize the challenges faced by the dental community, in sifting through the various philosophies and treatment approaches that are out there, and yet at the same time expect that our dentists do their outmost, to provide us with evidence based, quality care, dentistry.
Just a few thoughts. Have a great New Years all !!! I wish God's blessing, comfort, and hopefully less pain for all of us in 2003
1. How come treatment or even diagnosis of this problem (or range of problems), devastating as it is, has not evolved to some kind of universal "scientific approach" ? I mean it's not a new condition, like Aids for example (sorry for poor analogy). One problem is that most such doctors/dentists are essentially "individual" enterpreneurs, not part of research teams or corporations, looking for grand solutions. Effectively they are "treaters", not "solvers".
2. Why are doctors/dentists allowed take a brief course, and then they can advertise for TMJD "expertise" ? (in NJ, this is literally the law, it is harded for a TMJD specialist to call himself such, because there is no formal TMJD license; but instead to help the General Practitioners' practice, they can include TMJD under the broader umbrella of what they "treat".)
3. I have had quite a few doctors/dentsits, and some have obviously seen me as a cash-cow, little point in mincing words about this. Without any anger, I regret not suing any of them, because this is exactly what the civil law process is for.
My reply to your post was absolutely not meant to be absurdly patronizing.
I do not harbor any hatred or bitterness toward the Medical Community. We have many wonderful physicians from countries all over the world, as well as our own.
However, the statistics in our country regarding Medical Malpractice and negligence, causing death and injury are astronomical. Our News Media refers to it as an "epidemic".
I knew your post would generate many replies, possibly not as emphatic as mine, but all of the same nature.
It appears to me that all who post here have in someway been part of this "epidemic".
I was being totally honest in asking about the intent of your post. You appeared to be asking why there was not more tolerance and even sympathy for the plight of our Doctors. Our health and lives are at stake, we can not tolerate any more incompetence.
In regard to my current treatment, I have been seeing this Dentist for 25 years. He has researched TMJD for many years. He does not experiment on patients. His research consists of studying and following case histories. (Mine included) Consulting with others of his profession who realized years ago that non-invasive treatment could help and alleviate many of the problems of TMJD sufferers. It took him 6 months to decide what would be the best type of treatment for me. I had to be very patient, but in the long term, the wait has been worth it.
On the other hand, 10 years ago, I came from another city to see a very prominent surgeon, the best in his field. He looked at a tomogram, read a report, and I was on the operating table the next morning. Totally at his mercy and the sharp end of a scapel. He told me he could fix the problem and I trusted him. That was the biggest mistake of my life. That was my fourth surgery, I've had three more to try to undo some of the damage. I would say my skepticism is warranted.
A lot people on this board have had similiar experiences and worse. I did not take your post as a personal attack. Nor do I think anyone else did.
You should not interpret the replies as such.
I did not take one of your statements to imply that some of the posts here are irrational or unreasonable and/or the inability to analize the content of a message.
You said you merely wanted to open a "topic of discusssion". It appears (as we say in the South), "You opened up a can of worms."
In closing, I want to make very clear that my first reply to your original post was not meant in any way to confirm your position nor do I agree with most of your statements.
In this debate, I believe we are on opposing sides. I believe that is the purpose of a debate. Difference in opinions.
I wish for you a good day & a more healthy & Happy New Year.
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 12-31-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 12-31-2002).]
"However, the statistics in our country regarding Medical Malpractice and negligence, causing death and injury are astronomical. Our News Media refers to it as an "epidemic"."
Well I would say this is a slightly different debate. Of course, malpractice occurs, but the statistics confirm one thing more than anything - and that is that the USA is a VERY litigious country. I have no idea what those stats are based on but if they are based on the number of malpractice cases brought, I would not put too much store by them. I have had very personal experience of malpractice - but in essence it was a "mistake". And I think much of what people have experienced are genuine mistakes of doctors who thought they were doing the right thing but were not. Again, tht is not to discredit your own experiences.
"You appeared to be asking why there was not more tolerance and even sympathy for the plight of our Doctors. Our health and lives are at stake, we can not tolerate any more incompetence."
Actually, not really. Just more understanding that not all of them are out to wreck our lives even more!
AS for your dentist, the only thing I can say is great - I am glad it is helping. But he is no different form other practitioners who believe a certain form of treatment will work..what he does appear to have done is taken a bit more time about it...and took the trouble to learn. But this is simply what I am saying is it not? His treatment might, of course, not have worked..
"You said you merely wanted to open a "topic of discusssion". It appears (as we say in the South), "You opened up a can of worms.""
Excellent. And as I say, your post DID, like it or not, confirm the depth of feeling surrounding this issue - but I do not have aproblem with that.
For what it is worth, I was at my osteopath yesterday...worked on my hyoid and jaw, sternocleidomastoid and the nerves serving the diaphragm (which can be effected and cause "chest tighteness). He has relieved that and the severe and persistent throat pain I have been having recently. And you might also be interested to know that his profession are constantly locking horns with the traditional medical professionals!
To get into a discussion of Medical Malpractice might be considered getting off subject. However, since most all who post here believe in one way or the other their TMJD problems have been inaccurately diagnosed, improperly treated or have just been treated badly by Doctors in different "Fields of Expertise", I assume setting the record straight will be tolerated.
I always try to make sure any information I post is corrrect.
The statement I posted regarding Medical malpractice and negligence comes from statistics reported by, our Institute of Medicine, which is a branch of the National Academy of Science, which is chartered by the United States Congress.
This report was released in 1999 and stated that death from Preventable Medical Mistakes is the #8th killer of Americans. This problem has surpassed death from (total) automobile accidents, breast cancer and AIDS.
The over 100,000 deaths are the obvious and undeniable. There is no way to know exact numbers due to those that can be "explained away" or "covered up".
This number does not include injuries sustained and medication errors that later result in death.
There are no current conclusive reports because our Government is now involved and passing legislation to standardize medical care, prevent prescription errors, and create an Agency that is not affiliated with the Medical Profession to govern their actions.
The AMA is very protective of it's members and not a reliable protector of the public.
As I said, this report is from 1999. There was an estimate of 280,000 deaths reported last week in the News for 2002, but I can not find a Government report to verify this number. However, it's probably a low estimate.
I do not base my posts on Malpractice Claims or Litigation. However, due to my own experience and that which I know is going on in this country, I feel that there are many legitimate claims of negligence and improper treatment.
Our Forefathers did provide us with many "Freedoms".
One of which is to take legal action if we feel we have been wronged. There are those that would abuse that right and I'm sure that does not happen only in America.
Doctors have many protectors in this country. They basically govern themselves and do not answer to any outside agency. Anyone may bring suit against them for wrongdoing, but very few are able to get very far with their case, unless the wrong leg was amputated or the wrong procedure was done. This is obvious negligence and cannot be covered up. Most everything else falls in a gray area of the victim not being able to get through the bureaucracy, even with excellent counsel.
I too, have experience with malpractice... and it was not "just a mistake". My ten year old brother and my Father both died from Doctors not following proper medical protocol in doing relatively simple and long standing procedures. We know what happened and we had proof in both cases, we did not "sue." It would not have brought either one of them back.
So contrary to what many may believe, all Americans are not so litigious, even when they might rightfully be so.
I havent posted in a while. All I have to say is one doctor I have now is the best doctor I ever had. He hasnt helped my TMJ pain better but he really cares about me. He listens to me and he trys to help in any way he can and he talks to other doctors about helping me. He makes me feel comfortable around him and if I'm not happy when I go to his office by the time I leave I am always smiling, because of him. It really helpss to know that I have a doctor who has been there since the beginning. He really cares about me, and tries to help in any way that he can, not because he has to but because he wants to, because thats the kind of person he is. And I am more grateful for him than my oral surgeon and my pt. And he's only my orthodontist.
SO I am so greatful to have him and it makes such a difference to have someone who really cares about me and he's been there for me from the start
"Somewhere in this darkness there's a light that I can't find. Maybe it's too far away, or maybe I'm just blind"
Well Sue I have not read the figures or report you refer to so will have to take your word for it. The number of "preventable deaths" is always open to debate Iwould venture.
but with every post on this matter, you merely reinforce the original point. You appear to have quite some hostility to doctors - and you may very well have a right to given your experiences. But I fear that it is too small a step to then be saying or suggesting, that when a doctor mucks up, that he has done so with knowing or willful negligence. Arrogance is a factor for sure. But do ouhonestly think that they do not care?
Littlebrace, nice to hear from you again, but please take a look at what you wrote:
"He hasn't help my TMJD get any better"
"He's only my orthdontist"
Let's face it, these are still problems. Wouldn't it be better if you somehow solved your TMJD this new year ?
It's nice to meet a doctor (or anyone) with a nice personality. But curing your problem, now 6 months old, is SOOOOOO important. Please make it your New Year's resolution to get a course-of-action started - I doubt an orthodontist can help at all.
An open debate on "preventable deaths" would be a little one-sided, "Dead men tell no tales" as it were.
Again, I harbor no anger, bitterness, hostility, ill will or any other negative emotion toward the Medical, Dental, or Surgical professions. This would be destructive to me personally and not help any of my problems. I go along with John's philosophy of forgiveness, getting on with your life and finding the best treatment for your individual problems.
Now, since You contend that Arrogance might be a problem. Let's discuss Arrogance. (so I may address your last question to me)
ARROGANCE = 1. Presumptuos; acting without permission or right. SYN: impudent, insolent, rude, insulting, impertinent, uncivil, impolite, discourteous; lack of respect.
ARROGANCE = 2. Overbearing; domineering, dictattorial, tyrannical; control by strength or power and use of power cruely, unjustly, and harshly.
ARROGANCE = 3. Pride; high opinion of oneself and scornful of others. SYN: Vanity; to much pride in ones own ability, lack of real value and concern.
SYN: Egotism; selfishness, CARING TOO LITTLE FOR OTHERS.
ARROGANCE = 4. Haughty; SYN: Contemptuos; look down upon a person as low and worthless. SYN: Scornful, *disdainful and **derisive.
*Disdainful; consider others beneath oneself, despise,and spurn.
**Derisive; ridicule and MOCK.
MOCK; make light of, deceive, disappoint, pay no ATTENTION.
INATTENTION: CARELESS & NEGLIGENT.
So in closing again, I agree with you completely that ARROGANCE is evident in these professionals and I believe the above definition of ARROGANCE answers your
last question to me.
To stay on topic, "How's your TMJ?"
[This message has been edited by Cymy Sue (edited 01-02-2003).]
I already know that he isnt gonna help much. But I do have braces ya know so I do need to go to him every 6months. Right now I feel great. I have been taking medicine and it helps so much. I dont know if I can get another prescription for it though. But I have to go to an ENT on Jan 13. and don't say, i dont know why you're going there cuz they cant help you much and they dont know much about TMJ. I have to go to an ENT and I know why and my doctors know why, cuz I am a mouthbreather and they think it might contribute to my TMJ. See this is why I dont post on this board anymore, or I wasnt. Because people try to talk me out of something that I know is right. People said before why are you going to an ENT they arent very experienced in TMJ. For your information, they have to check my mouthbreathing, who else do you think is gonna do it? I try to tell you this, but you people dont listen so that really gets on my nerves. And I have to go to my orthodontist still and even though he isn't doing stuff for my TMJ, he is still helping me even if it isn't lessening my pain, and thats fine with me. Because I still need him to be here for me even if he isn't helping my pain.
"Somewhere in this darkness there's a light that I can't find. Maybe it's too far away, or maybe I'm just blind"
Well that was the long way to agree with me!
It is clear that there are some arrogant Drs but even in those cases, it does not suggest that they are willfully uncaring.
Anyway my tmj is a manifold thing. My symptoms can be caused by a combination of the tmj and a long standing neck problem - and as it happens I am sitting here having just had a very bad six hour vertigo attack! Still feel decidedly shaky and unstable but the room has stopped spinning..