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Old 11-29-2011, 07:03 PM   #41
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Hi Bhavna,

I'm responding to your recent post.

It's so difficult when the approaches we use do not produce the results we need! (And vice versa, of course.) It's wise to get that second PSA check of course.

Here's another possibility, even if the second PSA confirms the first one, indicating an increase. While it is possible the Ketoconazole may no longer be working, it is also possible that it will work if administered in just the right way. I've heard two expert medical oncologists who make extensive use of it for prostate cancer patients both emphasize that it is vital that it be administered in a certain way. If it is taken a different way, apparently it will often be ineffective.

I am looking at the handout of key slides from a presentation by Dr. Mark Scholz on Ketoconazole at the National Conference on Prostate Cancer 2005 in Washington, DC. Here's the content of his slide: "Ketoconazole: Administration Guidelines":
  • Acid pH in the stomach needed for absorption into the blood
    -Take Ketoconazole with 1000 mg Vit C
    -Aim to take Ketoconazole on empty stomach since food buffers the acid.
  • Antacids decrease absorption [of Ketoconazole]
    -Avoid Zantac, Tagamet, Pepcid, Axid, Prilosec, Prevacid, Nexium, Protonix, Carafate.

As I understand it as a layman, the vitamin C is just to make the stomach acid and that other methods will work as well.

I've also heard that taking it every eight hours is important. In another slide, "Preventing Side Effects," Dr. Scholz mentions the eight hour schedule, and he advises starting with 1/2 the dose, then increasing it after seven days if there is no toxicity ("increase dose from 200mg every 8 hours to 400 mg every 8 hours"). Please bear in mind that this information was from 2005 in a handout, and sound professional medical advice in 2011 to a specific patient could be different. In the slide Dr. Scholz also advises that blood be monitored to ensure that Ketoconazole levels are above 1.0, with low levels for DHEA, Androstendione, and testosterone. He advises that liver tests be done monthly. He notes that stomach upset can be counteracted by eating food, but that in that situation blood levels are vital; I'm thinking that's because food can neutralize the needed acid environment, his concern in the earlier slide. He points out that hydrocortisone, 20 mg twice per day with food, is important while on Ketoconazole because the drug blocks normal production of necessary hydrocortisone. He recommends resistance training in a gym to maintain strength and muscle mass.

I believe Dr. Myers also presented on Ketoconazole, probably at the 2009 conference, but I cannot locate my file at the moment. I do remember him stating emphatically that Tylenol must not be taken with Ketoconazole. It also interacts with many other drugs; that interaction can be managed in most cases, apparently, but it needs active, competent attention.

I've heard more than one doctor express doubt that Ketoconazole was very effective, but I got the feeling these doctors just did not know that the drug had to be administered the right way (including monitoring and appropriate adjustment). It seems that many doctors do not know the ins and outs of Ketoconazole.

Dr. Eric Small of UCSF is the major researcher on Keto for prostate cancer, and he may have published about his own clinical experience with it. You would probably also find something useful published by the Prostate Cancer Research Institute, especially in its set of papers or in a back issue of its PCRI Insights newsletter.

As a final thought, is your dad still on a drug to hold down testosterone, like Lupron or Zoladex? That would be important, I think. Is he taking anything to prevent conversion of any remaining testosterone to DHT (finasteride or Avodart)?

Take care,

Jim

Last edited by IADT3since2000; 11-29-2011 at 07:08 PM. Reason: Added final thought right after posting.

 
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Old 12-01-2011, 01:34 PM   #42
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Hi Jim,

Nice to hear from you after so long. Hope you are keeping well.

Dad is actually following the proper protocol for taking keto, i.e, taking it on empty stomach, having 8 hour difference between each dose. And he is taking it with Coke instead of orange juice as his doctor suggested.

About the dosage, Dr. Steven Tucker has suggested the dose to be increased from 200mg to 400mg. However, his doctor thinks that Dad's body is not strong enough for HDK and wants to wait for another month. We have very little knowledge and really don't know if we should try to convince his doctor to increase the dose?

Dad is still on Avodart but not on any LHRH agonist. Is it advisable to start once given the history of rise in PSA while on Bicalutamide?

Regards
Bhavna

 
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:30 PM   #43
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

It's nice to hear from you too.

I have no clue on the dosage change.

Regarding restarting the LHRH agonist, I believe there is no connection with androgen receptor mutations that can mean bicalutamide becomes fuel for the cancer rather than an anti-cancer agent. My impression is that the LHRH agonist drug is typically continued when the antiandrogen is stopped or switched.

I hope your dad has a good result with the Ketoconazole.

Take care,

Jim

 
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:43 AM   #44
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Hello,

Dad's PSA continued to rise on low-dose Keto so we convinced the doc to move him to high-dose Keto that resulted in drop of PSA from around 14 to 11. But then dad had severe side effects from HDK and the accompanying Prednisone and HDK itself like edema in legs, dizziness and many more. Hence doctor decided to stop HDK immediately and wait for the fluid to be out of his body before switching to Chemo or Honvan. This again resulted in PSA rise to 14. Now, after 1.5 month of stopping HDK dad's PSA has dropped from 14 to 2.5 without being on any medication (second line hormone) other that dutasteride. We are delighted yet confused. To us this is unusual, is it simply God's miracle or medications have got something to do with this. I would like to have your thoughts:

-> what could be the possible cause of this?
-> what should be our next course of action?

Regards
Bhavna

 
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:14 AM   #45
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Bhavna

I am glad to read about the drop in PSA. I hope it continues low and you and your family celebrate this relief.
In hormone refractory cases, there is a phenomenon known as “antiandrogen withdrawal syndrome”. This is a situation when patients experience a decrease in the PSA, after stopping the medication.

It is believed that in time the cancer adapts to survive in low levels of testosterone or even adapts to survive feeding on the hormonal drugs. This is typical with antiandrogens because they got a similar structure to that of the testosterone, but this is the first time I read on such possibility with second-line drugs.
You may ascertain this fact with a chronology of past testosterone test.

Unfortunately this period is short lived and the PSA starts rising again. Usually doctors switch to chemotherapy.

I hope that in fact his system managed to kill the bandit or that God has intervened on your dad’s behalves.

Thanks for continuously sharing your father’s story.

The Best to you all.
Baptista

 
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:57 PM   #46
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Hello,

Dad's PSA continues to drop, latest being 0.17 after stopping HDK. He is on no medication at the moment. Hope this continues forever.

Best wishes to all and thanks for your support.

Regards
Bhavna

 
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Old 04-23-2012, 03:52 AM   #47
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Re: Are urologists too optimistic?

Bhavna

I hope that the drop continues. I am glad for the news and to know that your family is at peace.
I would recommend you to research about the newer antiandrogen type MDV3100. This may be a good subtitution drug on your father's treatment. You could inquire about the possibility on his enrolment in a clinical trial with the newer drugs, before starting chemo.

Best.
Baptista

 
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