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Old 10-07-2010, 12:04 PM   #1
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AS after post-op treatment?

Do any of you know of any research pertaining to the success of AS after treatment for PCa?

 
Old 10-09-2010, 05:38 PM   #2
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

I'm not sure what you mean by that - "AS after treatment for PCa". I've always thought of Active Surveillance as something you can do before treatment rather than afterward.

Do you mean monitoring for recurrence? Are you thinking of active tactics you can use in addition to monitoring to improve odds of success?

Take care,

Jim

 
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Old 10-09-2010, 06:14 PM   #3
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Yes, I am thinking, actually have been doing, AS since surgery a year ago September. I've been sliding more and more toward a full vegan way of eating. Not 100% yet, but I'm close. I have a little honey and milk in my coffee and that makes me not pure vegan, but otherwise, it's no meat, no dairy. I'm wondering if this will have a positive effect on any future, potential biochemical recurrence. Is this something guys do when they have a rising PSA after surgery or do they just get in line for SRT. I am trying to avoid radiation treatments if they are ever needed.

Thanks Jim for your interest.

Last edited by Red Nighthawk; 10-09-2010 at 06:16 PM.

 
Old 10-09-2010, 10:57 PM   #4
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

So as I understand it, you've been monitoring your PSA,which has been rising since surgery, and you're trying to reverse the trend with a vegan diet instead of with radiation? How fast has your PSA been rising? Diets low in animal fats may have a small effect in preventing PC in the first place (as may a host of supplements), but you are beyond that point, and it won't stop metastatic disease. Have you considered hormone therapy? Have you discussed options with an oncologist?

 
Old 10-11-2010, 11:22 AM   #5
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Red Nighthawk,

I have been researching whether I can monitor my PSA instead of jumping right into radiation and hormone therapy, as my oncologist strongly urges. I found a nice article that may be of some help to you. It's titled: "Nine Decisions Before Electing RADIATION THERAPY After Radical Prostatectomy." They don't advocate RT, but one point they make is that if you choose to monitor your PSA instead of going right to RT, you want to act quickly if there is a small rise, as waiting for a larger rise might reduce the success of the RT. You can find the article at the Prostate Cancer Research Institute. Just Google the title and you'll find it.

Best of luck with your treatment.
Tom

Last edited by Gleason9; 10-11-2010 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Typo

 
Old 10-11-2010, 04:58 PM   #6
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Hi Red,

Okay, I see that you are trying to blunt any growth in any remaining cancer since surgery . I would not call that active surveillance because you have had a major treatment, but maybe it's just a matter of semantics as the tactics you are exploring are the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Nighthawk View Post
Yes, I am thinking, actually have been doing, AS since surgery a year ago September. I've been sliding more and more toward a full vegan way of eating. Not 100% yet, but I'm close. I have a little honey and milk in my coffee and that makes me not pure vegan, but otherwise, it's no meat, no dairy.
That virtually vegan diet will probably have some good effect on halting or restraining any recurrence. The knock on the vegan diet is that it is hard to maintain for many of us. However, if you can do it, that should work well. Whether it works well enough is a different story. Time will tell. I've cut out virtually all dairy, though recent research suggests that dairy is not a heavy hitter bad guy for prostate cancer. I'm researching whether I can resume eating some cheese now and again, which I would love to do. I feel like I have to go pretty much all out because of my challenging case. Have you tried soy milk as a substitute for milk? I really liked it, especially Silk's vanilla version. I no longer drink it because I needed to cut calories. (I actually use orange juice on my cereal, which is not as bad as it may sound.) I do not think the honey is a problem, unless it contributes to excessive calories.

Red meat, especially processed meat, looks like a bad bet for prostate cancer patients, but poultry seems to be okay if not beneficial, with fish clearly on the beneficial side. However, if you want to stay away from fish, fish oil capsules are a good choice.


Quote:
I'm wondering if this will have a positive effect on any future, potential biochemical recurrence. Is this something guys do when they have a rising PSA after surgery or do they just get in line for SRT. I am trying to avoid radiation treatments if they are ever needed.

Thanks Jim for your interest.
By all means try lifestyle tactics to forestall or damp down a recurrence. A lot of guys are doing that, many successfully. It's not even necessary to achieve complete success; if you can slow any PSA doubling time way down, you have probably won the game. That's why there is such great interest in quality pomegranate juice and extract. An extremely promising initial study showed that men recurring after primary therapy (I seem to recall all surgery) had an average PSA doubling time of 15 months when they started the trial, which involved 8 ounces of POM Wonderful juice per day, I believe for two years. Fifteen months is not that great a doubling time; it suggests that some follow-up treatment will be necessary at some point. However, the pomegranate juice intervention lengthened the doubling time to over 50 months! A follow-up study of those who stayed on the program showed an increase to an average of 88 months!

Obviously, those are game changing numbers. If it takes anywhere near 88 months - more than seven years - for the cancer cells to double, such a recurrence will probably never need follow-up treatment.

A number of other lifestyle tactics appear to also help our cause substantially.

All that said, it's vital to keep up diligent monitoring.

Take care,

Jim

 
Old 10-11-2010, 07:36 PM   #7
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

It's not at all clear that dietary changes can prevent or cure recurrence. I am aware of no controlled studies in humans that show causation at all. The EPIC study showed association, not causation, between high dairy intake/ dietary calcium and PC. They did not address recurrence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20843485

Such associations as pomegranate juice, omega-3's,lycopene and Vitamin D are only suggestive, and are usually not borne out scientifically. As you probably know, the clinical trials of selenium and Vitamin E were stopped prematurely when early findings showed it caused rather than prevented PC. In fact, the FDA and FTC has charged POM Wonderful with deceptive advertising:
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2010/09/pom.shtm

This is not to say that dietary changes and supplements may not be of great benefit. I am doing this myself. However, I look at it adjuvant therapy, not to be indulged in as a sole cure. If your PSA high or is rising quickly, I would urge you to see a urologist or oncologist.

 
Old 10-12-2010, 08:02 AM   #8
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Hi Red and Allen,

I'm responding to post #7. I've got to keep this brief due to my schedule today, but there is a lot more to this story to consider. I'll insert some quick comments below.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Allen View Post
It's not at all clear that dietary changes can prevent or cure recurrence. I am aware of no controlled studies in humans that show causation at all.
It is extremely hard to show causation between dietary and other lifestyle tactics and the highly complicated disease we face. However, short of causation, we have a "hot gun, smoke, and heard a bang" type evidence for many of these tactics.

Quote:
The EPIC study showed association, not causation, between high dairy intake/ dietary calcium and PC. They did not address recurrence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20843485

Quote:
Such associations as pomegranate juice, omega-3's,lycopene and Vitamin D are only suggestive, and are usually not borne out scientifically.
There is encouraging evidence for all three, as well as some negative evidence.


Quote:
As you probably know, the clinical trials of selenium and Vitamin E were stopped prematurely when early findings showed it caused rather than prevented PC.
As you noted above, "cause" has not been proved either for benefit or for harm. We really need to go back to the original FDA report and report from the clinical trialists in charge of the SELECT trial. I've seen so many distorted accounts of why the trial was stopped; neither the media nor even many statements in research papers have been accurate about why SELECT was halted.

The major reason had to do with the dosage of vitamin E used in the trial, 400 IU. That was considered safe when the trial started. During the trial it was recognized, due to emerging research, that doses over 200 IU per day carried some bleeding risk, a risk that could be serious for certain patients, especially if they were involved in surgery or accidents.


Quote:
In fact, the FDA and FTC has charged POM Wonderful with deceptive advertising:
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2010/09/pom.shtm
POM Wonderful clearly overdrove their headlights on their claims. However, the UCLA research is highly promising for prostate cancer, though not to the inflated extent in the POM Wonderful claims, and results from follow-up, independent trials should be available soon, perhaps this year.

Quote:
This is not to say that dietary changes and supplements may not be of great benefit. I am doing this myself. However, I look at it adjuvant therapy, not to be indulged in as a sole cure. If your PSA high or is rising quickly, I would urge you to see a urologist or oncologist.
Amen to that!

Jim

 
Old 10-12-2010, 11:56 AM   #9
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Check out Anti-Cancer by David Servan Schreiber and Foods to Fight Cancer by Richard Beliveau. Both books present definitive research regarding food choices and cancer. It will be very helpful for you to move forward and make positive life style changes. Also, I recommend drinking fresh brewed Japanese Sencha (Organic) green tea - three times a day. Steep for 10 minutes and then drink. You can add mint or a little honey if you're so inclined. Sencha green tea (fresh brewed) has very high levels of ECGC in it. Super strong cancer fighter. You may also want to check out two supplements - broccomax and curcugel Ultra. We've been working with a nutritional oncologist who recommended these.

Best!

 
Old 10-14-2010, 10:37 AM   #10
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Re: AS after post-op treatment?

Hi nnichols (Welcome to the board! ), and Red,

I wanted to add to what you wrote in the preceding post about green tea, part of my anti-prostate cancer program for the past ten years.


[QUOTE]... Also, I recommend drinking fresh brewed Japanese Sencha (Organic) green tea - three times a day. Steep for 10 minutes and then drink. You can add mint or a little honey if you're so inclined. Sencha green tea (fresh brewed) has very high levels of ECGC in it. Super strong cancer fighter....[QUOTE]

I've been drinking green tea from some major brands, and I'm not aware how it compares with the Japanese Sencha tea. I do remember seeing a Japanese green tea once, and it was truly green, rather than the light tan with a hint of green that I see. Where do you buy the Sencha tea?

One point is really important with green tea: adding some acid to prevent oxidation, which robs the green tea of much of its potency. Most of us seem to prefer lemon juice for the acid, and all it takes is a few drops. You can tell you are using enough if the tea does not change color to a darker brown.

As with so many nutritional elements, there is no proof yet that green tea or its EGCG help us fight prostate cancer, but there is a lot of encouraging evidence. I go through at least eight bags of green tea each day, all brewed for at least five minutes, stirred for ten seconds or so, with lemon juice. In fact, I averaged 14 bags a day during the first year after I was diagnosed with an unusually challenging case of prostate cancer. I cannot prove it, but I believe the tea is one element that has helped me deal successfully with the cancer. A leading medical oncologist specializing in prostate cancer and known for his emphasis on nutrition told me once that he thought the green tea in the quantity I was consuming was probably helping me cope with the cancer.

I usually brew two bags in a 12 ounce mug at one time and down two of those mugs at both breakfast and lunch, using caffeinated tea for breakfast and decaf for lunch. I'm not aware that the caffeine makes any difference as far as prostate cancer is concerned.

I learned long ago that about three bags of black tea was my limit. Fortunately I can tolerate many bags of green tea with no problems.

Jim

 
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