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Old 05-04-2009, 05:53 PM   #1
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Question CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Hello all,

I have been doing research on how to cure my CFS and found an interesting idea. Could it be the CFS is linked to some form of subconscious dysfunction that causes the system to be in 'high alert', 'overdrive', or 'hyper vigilance' all the time (and thus cause all the symptoms of CFS)?

Here is how I understand what may happen.
Due to
1)genetic predisposition + 2) enough external stress some sort of 3) overload in the nervous system responsible for fight/flight response happens where the nervous system learns to be hyper reactive.

4) The sympathetic nervous system is overstimulated which can lead to:
a) consistent burnout of the body & mind due to overstimulation

and/or

b) downregulation / desentisizing to any stimuli as a coping mechanism to never ending bombardment.


Thus the muscle pain could be tiredness because of being too long in the overdrive (fight response of the adrenal system) unable to snap out of it and the natural over depletion of muscular & nervous system's energy.

Brain fog could be due to natural exhaustion of being in the overdrive mode all the time, or dulling out of the mind as a response to cope with constant bombardment of hyper responses to stress.

Of course this anxious over-reaction to stress is some form of subconscious dysfunction and isn't something that one willfully decided to do (and who wants to have extreme anxiety? not me for sure?). This also makes sense if those people who got CFS were very driven people who suddenly got sick with some flu and afterwards have never recovered from the new onset of fatigue.

At this point I am sure that CFS is some form of systematic imbalance in the brain or CNS, as ordinary blood tests don't show anything seriously wrong.



Any comments, ideas, suggestions?

Last edited by ABC1111; 05-04-2009 at 06:04 PM.

 
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Old 05-05-2009, 07:06 AM   #2
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

I read something like this somewhere. Yet, I have not a clue. Sorry can't tell if its brain fog or just me...
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Old 05-08-2009, 12:29 PM   #3
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Wow, I think you're on to something -yet you may only have part of it! I do NOT believe it's anxiety originated or any "somatoform" based problem, but I do think it has to do with abnormal nervous system issues among other things. I have problems with my Autonomic Nervous System, which as you may already know, breaks down into the parasympathetic and the sympathetic system. ( My problem is with the sympathetic part- the "fight or flight" one that you spoke of). Well, I have really low blood pressure (again not normal for a "stress reaction" it would get higher, not lower due to anxiety). My average is 100/65, at times 80/40, so my heart rate goes really high (tachycardia) in order to compensate. I am told to constantly eat salt to raise my blood pressure, so that my heart can slow down. However, I also can't sweat as well as other people, get very dizzy upon standing sometimes, or standing for long periods of times. Obviously, all of this sent me not only to a cardiologist, but a cardio that specializes in autonomic dysfunction. There, during a stress bicyle test, and hooked up to oxygen tests simultaneously- they diagnosed me with some sort of idiopathic tachycardia they were not sure if it is something called POTS, and also Chronic Fatigue. My muscles apparently are not getting enough oxygen, but yet my lungs are. Wierd, huh? Maybe not so wierd when you start researching that if CFS might and I repeat MIGHT be caused by an illness or infection- and also the Autonomic Nervous System can begin to dysfunction after trauma, illness, or infection. It seems to be at least a possible link to that system. Now, something else that I asked my doctor- can this chronic fatigue be related to my anemia as well? I have chronic iron difficiency anemia. Well, think about it- that means that my red blood cells don't carry enough oxygen in them. So, if your blood doesn't have enough oxygen, then neither do your muscles, right? When you use muscles that are not properly oxygenated- you are using anaerobic respiration which causes those muscles to "burn". So, how long can you keep using burning muscles that are not properly oxygenated? Well, of course, -not long before you completely exhaust them. Also, on my part-I have what is called "blood-pooling" in my legs upon standing for over 10 minutes. The doctors diagnose this by watching you're feet turn a purplish or pale-blue over that 10 minute period. So to review, maybe poorly oxygenated red blood cells (erythrocytes), circulation problems in the extremities, plus a dysfunction of one of the three major nervous systems like the Autonomic System (the one that is supposed to be "automatic" i.e. that controls the blood pressure, heart rate, respiration, stress reactions, digestion, etc.) -NOT the Central Nervous System- could produce a combined problem such as Chronic Fatigue. It also seems likely that with the right amount of exercize to improve circulation, stress reduction- so as not to trigger the Autonomic System or adrenal glands too often, and trying to get any forms of anemia under control, that you could end the viscous little cycle long enough to knock it back into proper function. Remember this: Autonomic dysfunction CAN cure itself in some situations, the symptoms CAN come in cycles, and if we try to do everything to help our bodies get into a recuperation period-then we can probably reduce the syptoms if not eliminate them. You would really need to be vigilent about physical (i.e. flus, infections), environmental (i.e. exposure to toxins/fumes like carbon monoxide, lead. etc), and emotional stressors (sleep deprivation, arguments, etc), so as not to compound the problem in the meantime. We may find ourselves with a problem that goes away at some point, just as mysteriouly as it comes on, just by giving our bodies a chance to get better. Anyway, these are my LONG thoughts on the subject- I hope maybe this helps with what you've been researching. All the best- Lorie.

 
Old 05-08-2009, 01:05 PM   #4
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Hello Lorie, and all,

Quote:
Originally Posted by LorieJ View Post
I do NOT believe it's anxiety originated
What I was thinking was that it is even deeper than just anxiety.

Quote:
or any "somatoform" based problem, but I do think it has to do with abnormal nervous system issues among other things. I have problems with my Autonomic Nervous System, which as you may already know, breaks down into the parasympathetic and the sympathetic system. ( My problem is with the sympathetic part- the "fight or flight" one that you spoke of). Well, I have really low blood pressure (again not normal for a "stress reaction" it would get higher, not lower due to anxiety). My average is 100/65, at times 80/40, so my heart rate goes really high (tachycardia) in order to compensate.
Interesting observation about heart rates. I have to think about the rest of your post. Maybe the blood pressure part relates to something else, or maybe your heart is exhausted from constant fight/flight responce and cannot beat in another way... I don't know. It may be possible that a person has CFS and some addition health problem on the side.

I am thinking that another possible cause or condition for CFS *may* be mercury poisoning and that poisoning can affect many systems, bring anxiety and all other symptoms of CFS.



With best wishes,

Last edited by ABC1111; 05-08-2009 at 01:06 PM.

 
Old 05-10-2009, 10:05 AM   #5
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC1111 View Post
Hello Lorie, and all,



What I was thinking was that it is even deeper than just anxiety.



Interesting observation about heart rates. I have to think about the rest of your post. Maybe the blood pressure part relates to something else, or maybe your heart is exhausted from constant fight/flight responce and cannot beat in another way... I don't know. It may be possible that a person has CFS and some addition health problem on the side.

I am thinking that another possible cause or condition for CFS *may* be mercury poisoning and that poisoning can affect many systems, bring anxiety and all other symptoms of CFS.



With best wishes,
You know, interestingly enough I thought the same exact thing-so much that I recently paid 1200 bucks to get my old mercury fillings in my mouth removed! Let me tell you how this came about. I definitely know that I was exposed to carbon monoxide in February. All my symptoms had gotten so much worse, and I kept swearing that I was smelling gas. Yet, nobody else could smell it, but the cat and I were the only ones spending a great deal of time at home. Finally, one evening I was so short of breath and I passed out. My husband ran me to the emergency room and when I got so much better after a few hours, he decided to call the gas company. The technician ended up telling us that we had a MAJOR leak, he shut off the line, red-flagged us, and told us that his advice was to get everyone, including the cat out of the house. We ended up at a hotel for a week until we got a new furnace installed and had four leaking valves fixed! The sad thing is that I don't know how long I had been exposed. We had a couple of guys that came out in October to check the furnace before using it, but as it turned out their little podunk company had already gone out of business. Well, after all of this, I started thinking long and hard about what other chemicals I might have been exposed to in the last two years, and while looking through stuff on the net-I came across info about the dangers of mercury fillings. So, I figured why chance it-you know? I got them taken out a few weeks ago. I haven't made any sparkling recovery, but as I understand it, it can take awhile to improve symptoms. It certainly can't hurt to take out any potential toxin. Plus, if there were any other toxins in my body, I know just enough about chemistry to know that mercury can certainly compound the problem. Better safe than sorry, right? Also, the thing that I was saying earlier about the Autonomic System is because that's the one that sends the messages from your brain to induce the "fight or flight" response, so if the hyperresponsiveness of that system isn't based on an adrenal gland structural problem, then maybe it's based on the message center dysfunctioning. More physiology than anatomy based. Also, that system can most definitely become abnormal due to environmental toxins. That's one of the leading thoughts with Parkinson's disease, which affects the Autonomic System as well. In fact, it is thought that long term exposure to carbon monoxide, kills the basal ganglia in the brain which affects dopamine levels. Why wouldn't other neuromuscular issues have a probable association to toxins as well?

 
Old 05-12-2009, 11:04 AM   #6
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Hello LorieJ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LorieJ View Post
Well, I have really low blood pressure (again not normal for a "stress reaction" it would get higher, not lower due to anxiety). My average is 100/65, at times 80/40, so my heart rate goes really high (tachycardia) in order to compensate. I am told to constantly eat salt to raise my blood pressure, so that my heart can slow down. However, I also can't sweat as well as other people, get very dizzy upon standing sometimes, or standing for long periods of times. Obviously, all of this sent me not only to a cardiologist, but a cardio that specializes in autonomic dysfunction. There, during a stress bicyle test, and hooked up to oxygen tests simultaneously- they diagnosed me with some sort of idiopathic tachycardia they were not sure if it is something called POTS, and also Chronic Fatigue. My muscles apparently are not getting enough oxygen, but yet my lungs are. Wierd, huh?


I have read an interesting paper by Dr. Paul Cheney that CFS may be due to some form of heart dysfunction and all the fatigue is a result of insufficient blood being pumped (especially when standing up) + body's way of protecting against overexertion that can cause stroke. The major hint is post-exertional fatigue. It is present in CFS and in heart diseases... So could at least some kinds of CFS be a masqueraded heart failure (or stages close to it)?

Hmmm...

Last edited by ABC1111; 05-12-2009 at 11:04 AM.

 
Old 05-12-2009, 09:18 PM   #7
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

CFS is also know as Myalgic Encephalmyelitis (sp) CFS is caused from one of three viruses that attacks you tissues, most often your heart, Please read Dr. Martin Lerners studies. He has helped me and can his journals and studies can help all of us better understand this complex disease and yes it is very complex,

 
Old 05-12-2009, 09:25 PM   #8
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Read the journals Dr. A. Martin Lerner has written on CFS. this will give some good information and it has studies to back it up, Please dont listen to friend who may know something, please read it from a doctor. CFS is caused by a virus that has attacked your body and now has become chronic. It could be CMV or epsteinbarr or some other herpes virus. Its also know as ME myalgic encephalmyelitis.

 
Old 05-12-2009, 09:29 PM   #9
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

CFS can lead to diastolic dysfunction which will rob your life from you.

 
Old 05-15-2009, 05:20 PM   #10
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABC1111 View Post
Hello LorieJ.
That is interesting! The thing with me however, is that I'm a pretty tiny person (I don't fit the typical heart risk patient profile), and I've already had all the echo's, stress tests, 24 hour monitors done, etc. I am currently on a 30 day event monitor, but structurally everything usually looks great with my heart (certainly no signs of CHF, or anything that would obviously suggest any sign of heart disease to come). In fact, the only visible structural problem is Mitral Valve Prolapse (very common in women). Now, function is an entirely different thing. I obviously have some sort of what they are calling idiopathic (means the idiots can't figure out where it comes from, right? lol sinus tachycardia, and this new issue with my legs getting blue after standing for long periods. So my doctor's know there's a heartbeat issue including some skipped (aka ectopic) beats, and some blood flow issue, but nobody can seem to find any abnormal heart structure. So my question was-where is the heart getting the info from to beat so fast? Next question, what's wrong with the system that sends the message to slow the heck down? Obviously damaged by something, right? If I were having some sort of just bizarre electrical abnormality (electrophysiological), then the event monitor will pick it up, and in that case, if that were the only problem-then an electrophysiologist could go in and ablate or kill that tiny area to make it stop sending irregular signals. Yet, neither myself nor my cardio believe this will be the case because it wouldn't explain the blood pooling in my legs. Now adding CFS to the mix, I really feel points to some other issue going on. I can understand having chronic fatigue due to constant heart racing, but my heart racing slows down when I'm sitting, is better some days than others, and I may feel less fatigue on days even when my heartrate has been really high. It's odd. However, I do know that for my personal history, the idea of the CFS and maybe the other problems, could very well be based on a viral or bacterial origin that eventually started messing with my autonomic system and any other systems. I say this because I started having major problems two years ago after coming down with some "flu" -that's all I was told I had at the emergency room, but I had a fever of 104 and was losing some of my hair! I was one of 18 in my college class that had that fever. In fact one kid who was 19, and in good health, literally passed out on the grass outside our class. Over the next two weeks, he said that he too had some hair loss! Very wierd. Now, if it were something like a rheumatic fever or something along those lines, then heck yeah you could end up having these kinds of problems. Anyway, almost a year before that, my mom and I both got shingles (herpes zoster or aka chickenpox virus), and I had also been battling ulcers due to h-pylori bacteria. I was scoped and testive positive for h-pylori (the bacteria that causes ulcers) shortly after I had returned from a trip to Europe. Then, to top it all off, I spent quite abit of time working with children, so God only knows what all I could have been exposed to in the last few years! That is just bacterial or viral, not including the environmental stuff like I had talked about earlier. I imagine that I've gotten into something without knowing it-that would be my luck! The only other possiblity I can think of that might cause problems like these is some sort of strep or staph that could be dormant. Wow, you know, unless it showed up in a CBC- I wouldn't know about it. I many have to ask my doctors to do a blood and urine check for staph or strep. I'm sure they'll think I'm nuts, but hey I can't possibly do any worse than they are. I swear they're just guessing at this point as well. -Lorie.




I have read an interesting paper by Dr. Paul Cheney that CFS may be due to some form of heart dysfunction and all the fatigue is a result of insufficient blood being pumped (especially when standing up) + body's way of protecting against overexertion that can cause stroke. The major hint is post-exertional fatigue. It is present in CFS and in heart diseases... So could at least some kinds of CFS be a masqueraded heart failure (or stages close to it)?

Hmmm...

 
Old 05-19-2009, 07:30 AM   #11
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

I read recently that 'dizzyness on standing' has been under-recognised by doctors as a symptom of C.F.S. and that this symptom is very common among C.F.S suffers.

 
Old 07-15-2009, 02:00 AM   #12
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBa View Post
I read recently that 'dizzyness on standing' has been under-recognised by doctors as a symptom of C.F.S. and that this symptom is very common among C.F.S suffers.
Alot of CFS patients have low aldosterone which causes the NMH/OI/POTS. Some are helped by the drug ProAmitine, and others by taking Florinef (or bio-identical aldosterone), both which raise blood pressure in different ways.

NMH/OI etc can also have other causes with CFS - unbalanced autonomic nervous system (autonimic dysfunction). Many of us have this to varying degrees.

Ashok Gupta's Amygdala retraining techinque talks all about this exact topic - how the brain is in a constant state of 'high alert' - causing overstimulation of the brain and nervous system. His program is supposed to help reset that and slow everything down - get the body back to its natural state breaking the overstimulation of the stress response etc.

~Chris
----------------------
31, Male
5'9, 63kg (138lb)
Secondary AI, CFS/MCS/FM
42mg HC, 50mg Testogel
Melbourne, Australia.
----------------------

Last edited by Sypher7; 07-15-2009 at 02:01 AM. Reason: Typo's

 
Old 07-15-2009, 03:00 PM   #13
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ABC1111 HB User
Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

RE: Ashok Gupta's program. Has anyone tried it? What is the gist of it? Did it work? How is it practiced?



(there is too many different gurus and not enough money, time, & energy to try them all).


Thanks.

 
Old 07-16-2009, 08:29 PM   #14
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ABC1111 HB User
Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

What I am thinking is that CFS may be aquired dislike of what is. This dislike of the present moment, a sort of anger or dislike may somehow may have been programmed into one's subconsciousness.

When one dislikes where one is , or what is happening, or loses interest in what is happening may show itself in sleepiness. The mind is simply not interested and tries to become unconscious to what is going on.

I've heard that there is a saying in some prisons that "an extra hour of sleep is an hour off a sentence" maybe something like this is happening subconsciously.

Any comments?

 
Old 07-17-2009, 01:57 AM   #15
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Re: CFS, a subconscious over stimulation of CNS?

I am trying it now - though I'm only through the first disc of 4 DVD's (and there is one CD with meditation and other training on it). It looks promising and his explainations are very good.

I'm not convinced it will cure everyone, but I think it will certainly HELP everyone to varying degree's who try it. It makes alot of sense the way he explains things.

~Chris.

Last edited by moderator2; 07-17-2009 at 05:20 AM. Reason: posted disallowed website(s) - please read the posting rules

 
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