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Old 04-09-2004, 05:46 AM   #1
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Bulk to Cut

Hi, I am currently on a bulk and have been for the past 2 months and a bit. I have gained about 7kg in this time muscle and fat. I currently weigh 76kg and want to get to about 85 - 90 before I go on a cut. I currently take creatine and protein as supplements. WHEN I cut, would protein and ECA stack be a safe and effective 2 supplements to take together and see results? Also, is caisine (excuse speeling) protein still good to take during the day and after workouts or is it wasted having it then, and is it only good at night?

Thanks in advance.

 
Old 04-09-2004, 06:40 AM   #2
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Re: Bulk to Cut

You're going to hear all kinds of conflicting views on the safety of an ECA stack, so that's ultimately your decision. Using it with protein doesn't change it's level of safety. Whether you take a protein shake or eat a chicken breast, it's just protein. Casein is just a slower absorbed, so it's not ideal for post workout, but ok to use any other time, imo.
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Old 04-10-2004, 12:31 AM   #3
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Thanks for the reply. Would you take ECA stack? Is there any other safe product thats good for cutting?
Thanks.

 
Old 04-10-2004, 03:33 PM   #4
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Personally, I do take an ECA stack before cardio in the morning in cycles (on 2 weeks, off 1 week) but under the current circumstances, I wouldn't advise anyone else to do it (although barring known medical conditions, I wouldn't necessarily advise against it either). It's doesn't make a *huge* difference, but it gives me a little extra energy that early in the morning and over time, a little extra help is fine, imho. Now that it's banned, a cup of coffee is enough to suffice (the C in ECA ) L-Carnitine might be a better, "safer" product. It's a non-stimulant, but it helps the body to mobilize more fat for fuel during aerobic activity. Usually taken 20-30 minutes before cardio. CLA has been shown to help the body to use more fat also. Keep in mind, this is all *in addition* to a caloric deficit. Diet has GOT to be in order or none of these things will do a bit of good.
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Old 04-10-2004, 05:53 PM   #5
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Re: Bulk to Cut

So would Liquid Carnitine be a good cutting supplement with protein? I am very aware that my diet has to be intact and am positive I can do it. The thing is I do reach plateu (excuse speeling) all the time when I cut so I was hoping that this product would help me if/when I get this again. Its the syrum form. What dosage or cycle would you follow with this?

Thanks.

 
Old 04-11-2004, 09:09 AM   #6
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Never tried the liqiud. Your body doesn't build a tolerance to Carnitine, so you don't need to cycle it. Just follow the dosage on the bottle.
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Old 04-11-2004, 05:33 PM   #7
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Hey Naxis, i did a search on Carnitine and the site showed alot of good benefits from this liquid saying its good for your heart, cholesterol etc... BUT. They said this product had NO proven benefits of weight loss. Or in my case fat loss. So i'm having my doubts on this product. Are there any products out there on the market that you know work from experience or ones you just know are good? I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

 
Old 04-11-2004, 07:15 PM   #8
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Re: Bulk to Cut

I take L-carnitine preworkout. It doesn't make any big noticeable difference, but I know for a fact that when I have everything else in check, any extra assistance is useful. There isn't a lot of lab research to back the fat loss properties and what research there is pretty much says it is not a melt-the-fat-away type supplement, a la ephedrine. But for athletes and fit individuals, use over time should yield some benefits.

" L-carnitine is an amino acid that sort of acts like a shuttle to tranport fats into muscle cells where they can be burned as fuel. The promotion of L-carnitine as a great fat burning supplement is typical of supplement marketers who take the role of a nutrient and transfer it to a supplement. The reality is, our bodies are quite capable of manufacturing L-carnitine. There may be some benefit of L-carnitine supplementation in athletes who perform intense aerobic exercise with extreme frequency, but I haven't seen it play a discernible role in anybody's fat loss program. "

Anyway, CLA supplementation and caffeine before working out are still good ways to go. Make sure you are getting enough unsat fats in your diet, too. I can't think of anything else off hand that actually works.
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Old 04-13-2004, 05:27 AM   #9
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Hey Naxis, I wanted to know how I could benifit from caffine before a workout? I am on a bulk at the moment as you know and once I reach the desired weight I want to cut BUT wouldn't the caffine only be good for a athlete who does high intensity cardio? What i'm trying to say is that, shouldn't bdybuilders going on a cut only do low intensity cardio for a longer period of time instead of the shorter period of time with high intensity where the caffine is needed for a false sense of energy? If im going low intensity I won't be pushing myself that hard on the cardio so how can caffine be off benefit to me?

Thanks alot.

 
Old 04-13-2004, 07:41 AM   #10
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Quote:
Originally Posted by go_da_doggies
Hey Naxis, I wanted to know how I could benifit from caffine before a workout? I am on a bulk at the moment as you know and once I reach the desired weight I want to cut BUT wouldn't the caffine only be good for a athlete who does high intensity cardio? What i'm trying to say is that, shouldn't bdybuilders going on a cut only do low intensity cardio for a longer period of time instead of the shorter period of time with high intensity where the caffine is needed for a false sense of energy? If im going low intensity I won't be pushing myself that hard on the cardio so how can caffine be off benefit to me?

Thanks alot.
When cutting you want to go high intensity for shorter periods of time. Alternating intensity (HIIT) is best for cutting. Low intensity for longer periods is not good for cutting since it mobilizes your body to use muscle as fuel whereas HIIT uses more fat and less muscle for fuel. How many long distance runners do you see with big muscles? Few if any. How many athletes that run short distances at high intensity do you see with big muscles? Football players would fit into this catagory and they certainly aren't skinny. Caffine then helps in that it is a stimulant and gives you an energy boost to help you with high intensity workouts.

L-Carnetine is a good amino acid to take. It plays a crucial role in the transport of long chain fatty acids (cholosterol) into the miocrondria of cells so that it can be burned. As with any amino acid the question becomes "Does my body already have enough of it and will more be better?" That's a hard question to answer and you can only use your best judgement. Some fat burners contain Carnetine. Carnetine is also fairly expensive as amino acids go from what I've seen. You may want to consider when you buy your next bucket of protein finding a brand that has the amino acid profile on it and seeing if it has a couple of mg of L-Carnetine in it.

Really diet and the correct cardio workout is your best bet for cutting. Beyond that the next best helpful thing is caffine and from then on you get into substances that are not fully proven to work and may or may not be helpful especially considering if you are getting enough of that substance in your diet already.
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Old 04-13-2004, 08:57 AM   #11
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evl316
Low intensity for longer periods is not good for cutting since it mobilizes your body to use muscle as fuel whereas HIIT uses more fat and less muscle for fuel.
I gotta disagree. Long sessions of *low intensity* cardio is good for fat loss as more of the calories burned in the lower heart rate zone will be from fat. HIIT is also good because it continues to burn calories long after you're done. I wouldn't say one is better than the other. I use both. Many body builders use low intensity exclusively because it *is* so muscle sparing and because high intensity workouts can be difficult when you get as big as some of these guys do. But your average muscle bound gym-rat should use every tool in the arsenal.

And caffeine does more than give you a "false sense of energy". In addition to a small jolt of stimulation, it does help to mobilize fat in the body to be used as fuel in aerobic activity. That's why it is in the "ECA" stack.
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Last edited by Naxis; 04-13-2004 at 09:01 AM.

 
Old 04-13-2004, 11:03 AM   #12
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Re: Bulk to Cut

I suppose that depends on what is meant by "low intensity". Are you talking more about very light jogging or walking at a brisk pace maybe at an incline?

So let me see if I got this right or not.

Low intensity would be walking briskly or jogging lightly for say 20 or 30 minutes and that burns mostly fat and not much muscle?

Medium intensity would be jogging or light running for say 20 to 40 minutes and that burns both fat and muscle (more muscle the longer you go)?

HIIT would be high and low intensities alternating which burns mostly fat and is done for shorter periods of time than the other two?

Am I right about these?
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Old 04-13-2004, 05:17 PM   #13
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Re: Bulk to Cut

OK. Thanks guys. So I think I can benefit from caffine. Would coffee be enough before cardio or would some sort of tablet or supplement be best?
Thanks.

 
Old 04-14-2004, 07:19 AM   #14
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Low intensity to me is light jogging, or walking briskly, or on a treadmill at an incline), but when I say long duration, I'm talking 45-60 minutes. You're not burning a whole ton of calories, but a greater % will be from fat. So with consistency you are losing the fat but helping to spare muscle mass. My low intensity is usually level 12-15 incline on a treadmill at 2.5-3 mph for 60 minutes. It's not really hard to do, but it can be dull so I bring books-on-tape with me.

There's nothing patently wrong with general med-high intensity cardio, but you do run the risk of losing muscle. Like any aerobic activity, it will burn off any stored glycogen first and then move on to fat and muscle. Some people have a small whey shake or some solid protein food before hand to help prevent muscle loss and will swear by it, but I havn't seen any empirical evidence to back this up.

HIIT is actually a muscle building exercise if done properly (it's not going to help you lay on the mass, but it won't strip any muscle). So while it has you gasping and dripping in sweat by the end, the level of intensity is maintained for such a sort duration that it never really taps into muscle for fuel. Almost all of it comes from stored glycogen and as a result the metabolism is raised for hours later.


And re: caffeine, a cup of coffee before hand should be fine. It's cheaper and tastier (if you like coffee) than supplements.
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Old 04-14-2004, 11:33 AM   #15
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Re: Bulk to Cut

Quote:
Originally Posted by go_da_doggies
OK. Thanks guys. So I think I can benefit from caffine. Would coffee be enough before cardio or would some sort of tablet or supplement be best?
Thanks.

Generally 1 cup of coffee is said to contain 100 mg of caffiene. Some fat burner pills I've seen contain 200 mg of caffiene in a dosage and a simple caffiene pill such as NoDos contains 100 mg while Vivarin contains 200 mg. 150 mg is usually plenty for me.


Thanks for the answer Naxis, that clears it up for me.
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