I hope everyone is feeling chipper and as pain free as possible today.
Well, you know me, if I find something interesting about FM, I have to share it with my buddies.
First thing is, on ebay, there is a book that is for sale that has been written by our fellow Fibromites from all over the world and is being sold to promote FM Awareness Day. You'll have to check out ebay to see exactly where the proceeds go.(not sure) But it is a book and it's titled Fibromyalgia Life's Stories and like I said, it is a compilation of "our" stories.
Okay, second, I found some interesting information regarding all these anti-D's that our docs seem to "throw" at us when they first dx us with FM. ( you know how I hate these things, personally! )
Well, in Dr. Rodger Murphee's book, some of you all are familiar with his books, he talks about these anti-D's in depth, so I'd like to share a little bit of what I found in his book and his research.
Dr. Murphee addresses the importance of serotonin and sleep.
****Jeremy, there is a whole section of information about restorative sleep in this part of his writings that is really interesting to you.**** Dr. Murphee lists some of the medications that, in his opinion, DO NOT help with resorative sleep, and the ones that do. I can list those later, since a lot of us are taking some of these meds. Anyway, this is a little part of what Dr. Murphee says in his writings.
I also want to note, just for board policy, that this material can be shared and reproduced with the permission of Dr. Murphee. He WANTS us to get the news out. The following info is taken from the research he has done and that I have saved in my own file and put together so I can share with others, all info is available publicly. So this information, although I have changed some of the content around, is shared with permission. I have tried really hard not to break any of the board rules, and I have also tried to "reword"(in some places) Dr. Murphee's findings so that I am not plagerizing him(sp?).
Dr. Murphee author's a book titled: Treating and Beating Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - A Patient's Self-Help Manual. that provides the info about each subject. I believe this is a new addition to his book (A Patient's Self-Help Manual) already out titled "Treating and Beating FM and CF" (shortend, for space) This is a new "self help manual" out in April that address certain single problems we have with FM/CFS and takes us step by step showing us how to treat the ailment "naturally" and then there is a quesitonierre to help us understand exactly how these symptoms are affecting our lives and how we are best helped. Kind of a question and answer section for each ailment. Some of the info in this post is taken from parts of this book and manual as well as other sources of info that Dr. Murphee has written.
The Importance of Serotonin and Sleep
∑ Serotonin, a neurotransmitter, helps regulate sleep, digestion, pain, mood, and mental clarity. Normal serotonin levels help:
∑ raise the pain threshold (have less pain).
∑ you to fall asleep and stay asleep through the night.
∑ regulate moods. It is known as "the happy hormone." (*I like that! )
∑ reduce sugar cravings and over-eating.
∑ increase a person's mental abilities.
∑ regulate normal gut motility (transportation of food-stuff) and irritable bowel
∑ syndrome (IBS).
Here is some more info about serotonin that Dr. Murphee states in his book:
The amino acid (found in protein) tryptophan turns into 5-hydroxytroptohan, which turns into serotonin, and then into melatonin. Vitamins and minerals are essential, too, of course. A deficiency of any of the synergistic (I had to look this word up, but thought it was good for us to learn! ) nutrients magnesium, calcium, and vitamins B6, B12, B1, and B3 will prevent the production of serotonin. Prescription medications can block the production of these nutrients and so deplete serotonin.
Dr. Murphee says that we are naturally built with a "savings account" of the following chemicals, serotonin, dopamine, noriepinephrine, cortisol, DHEA, HGH, and others, these help us deal with stress. And everytime we experience stress or some kind of incident with our FM or CF Syndrome, it depletes this "savings account". He says that we are emptying this savings account by making more "withdrawls" than "deposits". He then goes on to discuss how we make "deposits" of these chemicals by obtaining deep restoritive sleep which makes serotonin. And since us Fibromites usually do not obtain deep restorative sleep, we don't make enough serotonin to replace what we lost during the day, so it's a vicious cycle. Here's where the anti-D's come into play. You know some of our docs push those SSRIS at us to "increase serotonin". Well, here is what Dr. Murphee has to say about these meds.
Why Not Just Take an Antidepressant?
Antidepressant drugs have been used with varying degrees of success in treating the sleeplessness of FMS and CFS. Many patients are on Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRIS (Prozac, Paxil, Celexa, Lexapro, Zoloft, etc.). SSRIS are supposed to help a patient hang on to and use his or her naturally occurring stores of serotonin. This is like using a gasoline additive to help increase the efficiency of your car's fuel. But most of the patients Dr. Murphee sees, he claims, are running on fumes; there is no gasoline in their tank (no serotonin in their brain)! A gasoline additive (SSRI) won't help. SSRIS don't make serotonin, they only help a person hang on to and use the serotonin they already have.( *I did not know this, my doc never told me this part!) Unfortunately, most individuals with FMS don't have any serotonin. There is nothing to reuptake. (*Hmmmm.....)
No one has a SSRI (anti-depressant) deficiency.
This is where Dr. Murphee recommends 5HTP. He says it's like pouring gasoline straight into our "tanks". This is what he says about 5HTP: "5HTP is a derivative of the amino acid tryptophan. When taken correctly, it turns right into serotonin. Serotonin is the neurotransmitter or brain chemical that is responsible for regulating your sleep (getting you to sleep), raising your pain threshold (decreasing your pain), and elevating your moods. " He says that using this amino acid may take awhile to help build up your serotonin but he believes it is so much better than taking those scripts. Dr. Murphee also believes that 5HTP helps the additional problems: depression, FMS, insomnia, binge eating, pain, and chronic headaches. Now, mind you, these are just his determinations. He is a doctor, but he uses a homeopathic method to treat FM/CFS which may not be for everyone. A lot of folks are comfortable taking their prescriptions.
Okay, here is the part where he addresses all those sleep meds we take. He says that they simply "knock us out". We are not naturally falling into deep restorative sleep. If you don't dream for instance, you are simply medicated, you are not in natural sleep. I gotta say, I take one of these meds, and I am afraid to wean off of it, because it DOES, help me sleep straight through the night, but I DO notice that I usually wake up in the same position that I went to sleep in. I DO dream though. Not all the time, but I do. I like the idea that I'm not tossing and turning because of my back, I cannot turn myself over without help or support. Dr. Murphee claims that most of us will feel "hung over" in the morning while taking these sleep meds. I do feel that. Here is the list of meds that he says DO NOT (in his opinion) obtain restorative sleep:
Sleep Medications that don't Promote Deep Restorative Sleep:
∑ Gabitril (tiagabine) and Neurontin (abapentin)
∑ Zanaflex (tizanidine)
∑ Xanax (alprazolam), Ativan (lorazepam), Valium (diazepam), Tranxene (clorazepate dipotassium), Serax (oxazepam), Librium (chlordiazepoxide), and Restoril (temazepam)
∑ Soma (carisprodol) is a muscle relaxant that can be very sedating.
∑ Klonopin (clonazepam) ***this is what I have been taking for nearly 3 years for sleep, I also take Soma, and have tried Zanaflex***(Klonopin is an anti-anxiety med, as are some of the other med's listed)∑ Unisom (doxylamine) is an over-the-counter antihistamine.
Sleep Medications that do Promote Restorative Sleep
∑ Trazadone ***I have taken Flexeril and Trazadone, and they haven't helped me, personally***
Okay, there you have it. I just had to tell you about the anti-D's (hate those things! LOL) and in Dr. Murphee's book he address how exactly to use 5HTP so that it benefits you the most. Also, just a bit of info for those of us with CFS. There has been research that shows that 5HTP does not work for CFS patients. It is recommended that for those of us who have CFS, 5HTP be taken during the day, if possible, to help build up serotonin during the day. Now they recommend Fibromties use it at bedtime as well as during the day, depending on how it helps them. There is info in Dr. Murphee's book and on the web as to how to use 5HTP if you choose to go that route to help you increase your serotonin.
I hope some of you get a little "out" of this info. Roll it around in your mind. It's not for everyone. I don't take anti-D's, but I do take Klonopin for sleep. I DO believe that there can be alternatives to some meds we are taking.
Enjoy the read.
Here's wishing you a good spirit,
P.S. I want to add, (thanks to marshwiggle!) to please be sure to check with your doc before trying any of the therapies mentioned here or in any book that promotes "homeopathic" treatments using supplements and amino acids.
Last edited by tkgoodspirit; 03-30-2005 at 11:40 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to tkgoodspirit For This Useful Post: Nadya1971 (09-03-2012)
Hi TK! Thanks for sharing the good info. I took 5HTP a while back because it supposedly helps prevent migraines. Unfortunately, I got a migraine shortly after starting on it, and when I took Zomig to relieve my migraine symptoms, I had horrible, horrible side effects. Turns out you can't take one with the other. So just a heads up to anyone else who uses triptans for migraine. If you try the 5HTP, don't use a triptan (Imitrex, Maxalt, Zomig, etc.).
Last edited by marshwiggle; 03-31-2005 at 10:39 AM.
Like marshwiggle states, and I have said in other posts, please please be sure to talk with your regular Doc about using 5HTP or any other amino acid b4 you start this regimine. Some scripts interact with these amino acids and supplements.
Thanks again marsh, for the heads up. I should have added that in my post. Thanks for being the reminder!
TK Interesting...I take tizanidine and Ambien I still only sleep 4 to 5 hours at a time but I do dream and usually do the awake/asleep thing for several hours. I agree with the anti D being not good at least for me. I've only tried amitryptaline and what a hangover. I also would not like to give up my Ambien. I didn't do drugs in the sixtys but I love them now. Funny how FMS can do that!
mom is sleeping and i had time to really read your post. well done sister! i take ambien. nothing guarantees a perfect night of sleep every night, however with ambien i get 5 or 6 out of 7 nights. i do not wake with a hangover effect. in fact i wake fully aware and usually singing something left over from a dream. i am a happy morning person. ambien takes nothing away from that aspect of me. neither does fms. lack of sleep for 5 years almost did. it was close. then i had a sleep study done and the ambien came into my life. that was over 4 years ago, giggle, i think.
i will talk with my doc when i get home about what you found. you are a peach to spend so much time typing. i know how much you pay for these bursts of written educational love you gift us all with.
BLL I've been reading the FM board for a long time before I decided to put my two cents in and I have always liked your attitude. I think spicy is a great word for you. I do love my Ambien too and I sleep about 4 hours a night with it, and I hope it is a long love affair. You mentioned in another post that you also take Benadryl. Is that just OTC or is it something that has been prescribed. I'm still seeking the right combination of nightime majic.
my mom laughed when i read her your comment on me. she says spicy does fit, along with rebel, gypsie and a few others.
the benadryl i take is 50mg and is prescribed for me. between the two i get at least 6 hours most every night.
peace and spice,
Now into 4 yrs. of CFS/fibro, I spent all those past yrs. trying to do the natural route. I've never been a pill taker. I never could find anything natural that really helped, I just kept getting worse. If you do nothing else but get something to help you sleep, you've won the lottery as far as I'm concerned! If you don't get good sleep, everything is worse. My fibro doc dx'd gabitril and neurontin for sleep and pain. I'm into wk.3 and those 2 drugs work wonders. But, the neurontin, altho great for the sleep and pain, has made me gain weight already (which I guess it will do) and made my brain fog worse. So now I've stopped the neurontin for the past 2 days, and my mind is definetly better without it. I'm still taking gabitril, a very low dose, but it did work better with the neurontin, (swear words!). Gabitril is certainly not without it's risks, but ya gotta sleep!! So I quess I'll be having this discussion with the doc my next appt. I loved those drugs togeather, but I'm not gaining 30 lbs sleep or no sleep. I have to work hard to keep my weight in control as it is. I'm a good 15-20 lbs over weight now, I don't need more. I think Dr. Murphee had some interesting things to say, but I don't think there is any easy fix to this. Everyone is different. Everyone has different underlying problems. This is a complicated journey. I guess if you find something that works, hooray! Glojer said, "I didn't do drugs in the sixtys but I love them now". TO FUNNY Ain't that the truth.
I'm movin slo, and I just joined this group. I have Fibro. I think it started in 1990 when I got hurt on the job. But in the last 2 years it has gotten worse. I also have diabetes,enlarged heart,psorisis, sleep apnea. I'm 53 years old and feel most of the time 90. I have tried several meds. Nuerontin(sp), darvoet,ultram,flexeral,librium-still using,and others. the Nuerontin when I got to 3 pills 4 times a day, they killed my stomach.So that didn't work. And it is suppose to be the best out there.Anyway, just wanted to jump in and say HI
and hope I can be a active part of the group.
Greetings!! 49 y.o. male, dx'd with fibro 2 years ago (though I had the symptoms for about 8 years before the diagnosis). Initially started on Neurontin, which helped for awhile, but not greatly, and gradually stopped working altogether. Doctor then began the great SSRI/SNRI treadmill --Zoloft, Paxil, Effexor, Cymbalta. The Zocor was fine for anxiety/panic, but did nothing for the fibro. Ditto with Paxil. The side effects from the Effexor and Cymbalta were worse than the disease.
Also diagnosed with sleep apnea last year. My sleep study also showed zero Stage IV sleep. While my apnea therapy enables me to sleep better, I suspect I am still getting little or no Stage IV sleep.
A week ago, I started taking 5HTP. I spent the first week taking 50 mg 3x per day, and starting today have remped up to 100 mg 3x day. I am also doing a Tai Chi/Kung Fu regimen 3x per week. So far, no appreciable effect from the 5 HTP, but I didn't expect anything until I got up to the therapeutic dose for awhile. The biochemistry sure seems to make sense, and nothing else has worked, so there is absolutely nothing to lose by trying it.
Right now, the muscle aches from the martial arts workouts make it difficult to tell whether my fibro is better or not! <That's what I get for not exercising, even when I'm in pain> I'm going to be interested to see how it goes, and would like to hear other experiences from those who have tried 5HTP.
Bumping this thread up. In response to the following thread:
"Frustrated with fibro and doc labels my visits as depressive disorder"
Hey there "jdlfmc"/Linda!
I just wanted to bump up this thread incase you were interested in reading what the author Dr. Rogder Murphee has to say about Anti-D's as well as other info about some of the "little annoyances" that come with FM.
I hope I'm not overwhelming you with all this info, but I just like to share what I have found to be helpful to me, and hopefully help someone else.
Peacefully your fellow Fibromite,
I will check out the book. Thanks for the information. I don't have a problem with taking meds or anyone else taking them. But I think that we are all different and most docs have the same treatment plan for all of us.
As far as 5HTP, my psych said that I couldn't take it with my Wellbutrin and Lamictal which I have been on for years prior to onset of FMS.
Flexeril is what i take to help me sleep, about 1/3 of a 5 mg pill. (As I mentioned in other posts, I am weaning off of meds as much as possible. I am so tired of having to take pills. I am on ultram and I don't even know why, just have been for a year;I had to be careful weaning, because from what i understand, you cannot just stop taking it. Now I am down to 1/4 of a 50mg tablet twice a day from 50mg 4 times a day. i am not weaning off of my psych meds. Big mistake.)
As far as antidepressants being ordered automatically for fms patients, I think that many doctors use cookbook medicine to treat fms to save time and energy.
Oh and with ambian, I became severely depressed with suicidal thoughts and weeping-I couldn't even get out of bed. I got off of it within 7 days and within 2 days, was about back to normal. I read that it was a side effect and that its not meant for long term use, only for 7 to 10 days, so I don't know why my doc gave me 30. Well yeah I do, cookbook medicine. I wasn't even having difficulty sleeping.
I take neurontin for burning and have cut it from 600 mg 4 x a day to 1/8th of a pill twice a day with no side effects. Is Neurontin also for restorative sleep? Does it cause weight gain?
In the last year, since onset of symptoms, i have gained 40 lbs. From 120 -160 lbs. Has anyone else have this problem? I am so hungry all the time.
I have the same attitude toward meds. Since the neurontin stopped working, I have been on Effexor (twice), Paxil and Cymbalta. The Paxil did nothing, and the Effexor and Cymbalta had such bad side effects for me, I couldn't continue.
While I am experimenting with 5HTP, I haven't yet scaled up to a dosage that will be therapeutic. I hope it works, because my shoulders, neck and upper back are in almost a constant state of spasm.
I have gained about 30 pounds myself, despite starting an exercise program and trying to watch what I eat.
welcome! i gained about 50 lbs back 10 years ago when this all started. now i fight to keep my weight up. candy helps. giggle, don't listen to me! i am a bad girl who loves her chocolate.
my body hates food. i get nauseated just thinking about eating. be careful what you wish for. i once wished to be able to eat anything i wanted and not get fat. my wish came true. not exactly like i thought tho.
one important thing i learned thru it all tho. i am who i am no matter how much of me there is. you are a wonderful human. never lose sight of that.