It appears you have not yet Signed Up with our community. To Sign Up for free, please click here....



Heart Disorders Message Board
Post New Thread   Closed Thread
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-28-2006, 06:56 AM   #1
Member
(male)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 75
Ken289 HB User
Bruising on Plavix

It seems almost automatic that someone on Plavix/aspirin (after Drug coated stent), will be at risk for bruising. My questions have to do with severity and trends (getting worse over time, for example). Other than the obvious connection I already stated, I have not found lots of specifics, so I am wondering about peoples' experience here with bruising. I have had some real "good" ones lately, and they have just started appearing. One I have had took a long time to go away (actually it is still slightly visible). Maybe I am just now starting to get careless (actually never thought about it), but the several I have had look ugly and large. I have put ice packs on them.

Any comments? Obviously also there is a catch 22, as one does not want to stop the Rxs to improve the bruising potential.

Thanks,

Ken

 
Old 07-28-2006, 02:13 PM   #2
Senior Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 582
arlmon18 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

My Mom is on Coumadin (warfarin) and bruises very easily. One little bang, and she has a bruise. Her skin has become very thin, and she has many marks on it. She hates what coumadin is doing to her skin, but she has no choice. Like yourself, some bruises take longer to fade than others.

 
Sponsors Lightbulb
   
Old 08-04-2006, 03:08 PM   #3
Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 310
Connie122516 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

I've been on both Plavix and aspirin since having a stent placed in early Oct '04. At first, I was on a regular 325 mg aspirin, but in June '05 that was changed to two 81 mg (or 1/2 regular) because of excessive bruising...my ears started to bleed occasionally and I had a huge bruise all over one foot from a slight bump.

I've bruised easily all my life but it really increased with these meds. It's just something I live with. I'm colorful these days

Being various shades of yellow, green and purple (and rarely knowing how I got that way since all it takes is a very minor bump) is my new normal.

Sure beats the alternative....

 
Old 08-04-2006, 05:26 PM   #4
Member
(male)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 75
Ken289 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Thanks for all the comments....yes, the bruising is much better than the alternative. Guess one just better be as careful as possible. I picked up a heavy computer monitor and the edge pressed into my biceps and later (I didn't really notice), I had a "nice one" over my entire lower bicep. Yes, the colors are sort of pretty as it ages.....

Again, thanks for the comments.

 
Old 08-05-2006, 05:45 AM   #5
Senior Veteran
(male)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,484
Lenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Ken,

I got a bloody nose every day of the two months that I took that godforsaken drug (Plavix)...I'd NEVER take it again.

Isn't it reasonable that for every bruise you see, or every case of a bloody nose or bloody ears, and there's probably an internal bleed or two that you NEVER see. Of course the worst of these internal bleed is in the brain, aka hemorrhagic stroke.

Plavix is the modern day equivalent of "bleeding" therapy!

I predict the drug will eventually be removed from the market but not before it has killed a mighty multitude.

 
Old 08-05-2006, 06:46 AM   #6
Member
(male)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 75
Ken289 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Yikes! You are probably right on target but what is so scary is the statistics that seem uncontrovertable showing tragic thrombosis in the DES if one stops taking these. Aspirin alone does not seem to work.

I take fish oil in addition to the plavix and aspirin. I can not chance running the experiment to see if aspirin and fish oil act as effective as aspirin and plavix.

 
Old 08-05-2006, 11:31 AM   #7
Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 310
Connie122516 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Re: bleeding in the brain. That's why it's always good to know the symptoms of stroke, even if all we take is aspirin. But the good thing is that my skull is pretty hard (unlike my thinning skin as I age) and cushions against the minor bumps that seem to be the cause of most of my bruising. And since I've had no GI discomfort or bleeding, I ain't too worried.

Each of us has to make the decision that is best for us, based upon whatever research and personal experience we have. Once we are no longer disease free, it usually boils down to a choice of weighing the risks of various treatments or treatment vs. no treatment.

Me, I'll risk the slightly increased risk I have of a stroke over another 99% blockage in my LAD.

BTW, my cardiologist won't let me take fish oil along with my aspirin and Plavix as he says that fish oil could increase the risk of a bleed. He says it's just better to eat a lot of fish.

Last edited by Connie122516; 08-05-2006 at 11:31 AM.

 
Old 08-06-2006, 05:21 AM   #8
Senior Veteran
(male)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,484
Lenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Ken,
I dispute there is convincing evidence showing the efficacy of Plavix over aspirin alone and evidence only for showing additional benefit for combining aspirin and Plavix (clopidogrel) for 2 months...and then no more.

And there is just too much of this kind of stuff:
Quote:
Dr. Charles Bennett, a Northwestern University researcher, has developed a proactive method for detecting adverse drug effects by examinning adverse drug reports submitted to FDA’s database and reports from reports by phamaceutical companies and independent groups of researchers thoughout the US and Canada. The project is called the Research on Adverse Drug Events and Reports (RADAR).

For example, Dr. Bennett discovered that the widely used anti-clotting drug, Plavix, can cause “a catastrophic collapse of the blood system.” He urged the FDA to issue Black Box warnings, but the FDA refused, but did add a less prominent warning.

Dr. Bennett published a paper in the journal Stroke (February) in which he compared the effectiveness of various systems for detecting adverse drug effects. The FDA system ranked at the very bottom:

“The study assessed how the FDA, Plavix's manufacturer and RADAR pursued adverse drug reports, documented the side effects and assessed patient outcomes over a four-year period. Basically it was a report card, and RADAR scored 92 to 100 percent; drug companies, 8 to 58 percent; and the FDA, 0 to 23 percent.”
And then there's the CHARISMA TRIAL:
Quote:
The CHARISMA trial is an international, multicenter, double-blinded, placebo-controlled study involving 15,603 patients aged 45 years or older who were at high risk of heart attack, stroke or death from cardiovascular disease. The study was designed to assess whether adding clopidogrel (75 mg/day) to aspirin therapy (75-162 mg/day) provided any benefit over aspirin monotherapy in preventing the occurrence of those events.

The study's efficacy results showed that the addition of clopidogrel to aspirin therapy did not result in a significant lowering (p =0.22) of risk of the primary endpoint, the combined risk of heart attack, stroke or cardiovascular death (6.8 percent in the clopidogrel plus aspirin group and 7.3 in the aspirin-only group -- a difference that was not statistically significant). Additionally, the rate of moderate-to-severe bleeding was increased in the patients taking clopidogrel with aspirin compared to the rate in those taking aspirin alone.

Aspirin: The Unsurpassed Antiplatelet Gold Standard

Aspirin is the most studied antiplatelet agent, with more than a 100-year track record of efficacy and safety. As the cornerstone antiplatelet therapy for reducing the risk of cardiovascular events, time-tested aspirin is well recognized for its benefits as first-line therapy across a wide cardiovascular risk continuum because of its proven efficacy, safety and cost-effectiveness -- benefits that have been demonstrated in more than 200 trials involving over 200,000 patients, including CHARISMA.
My opinion, which is STRONGLY fact based, is that there may be a benefit/risk ratio greater than 1 for anyone getting a stent and taking the COMBINATION aspirin + clopidgogrel that persists for 60 days. Any other use exposes the user to a huge dangerous risk of fatal bleeds (death or a loss of more than 4 units of blood) with very little benefit. THe number usually given for this potentially fatal bleed is 1% of users...this is NOT a bruise or a bloody nose I'm talking about.

My prediction: keep your eyes and ears open and you will soon see more and more damning evidence for this GARGANTUAN money maker...and the WARNINGS will become more strident.

Last edited by Lenin; 08-06-2006 at 05:25 AM.

 
Old 08-06-2006, 07:19 AM   #9
Member
(male)
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 75
Ken289 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenin
Ken,
I dispute there is convincing evidence showing the efficacy of Plavix over aspirin alone and evidence only for showing additional benefit for combining aspirin and Plavix (clopidogrel) for 2 months...and then no more.
Lenin: I do not dispute what you say. I wonder however, that you do not mention the flip side---stopping taking the plavix/aspirin combination. There are facts (I do not have the citation readily available) about the demonstrated increase in risk for those who stop taking the combo, even for a short time. The recos go out to 12 months, I think because no data exists for longer than this. I have posted somewhere else, a quote from a cardiologist about this.

So...risks of taking and risks from stopping. I admit and am thinking seriously, based in part on your comments, about how much fish oil I should continue taking. I have already cut back, but not to zero and doubt I will.

Great discussion...good learning from these messages.

Thanks.

 
Old 08-06-2006, 09:51 AM   #10
Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 310
Connie122516 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

Lenin,

I'm surprised that you did not quote the complete results of the CHARISMA study. While it did find that there was not a significant difference in prevention of cardiovascular events in people who are AT RISK of these events, when they analyzed the subgroups (people who were AT RISK vs. those KNOWN to have disease) there was, in fact, a statistically significant benefit of taking Plavix plus aspirin for those who have heart disease.

The jury is still out, in my opinion, about how long we should be taking this medication. But the evidence is pretty clear that it is helpful for at least the first year in people who have stents. Of course it can cause bleeding. So can aspirin and any number of other things. It is common sense that taking both further increases the risk of bleeding. But anti-coagulants of various types have been used for decades in people with a history of heart attack and stroke. (And it is a risk I'm willing to take, when compared to my risk of death from a heart attack. My decision might be different if I had a nose bleed everyday, or less serious CAD, or any number of other individual variables).

Anyone interested in reading about this study can Google "CHARISMA Plavix" and get any number of articles summarizing the study. You can also go to the source (New England Journal of Medicine) and read the abstract for free, or pay to read the entire study article. As an example, here is the Reuter's news article:

ATLANTA (Reuters Health) Mar 13 - Adding clopidogrel (Plavix) to a daily dose of aspirin does not lower the risk of death, myocardial infarction or stroke in high-risk patients, researchers reported at the 55th annual meeting of the American College of Cardiology on Sunday.

"The overall findings were negative, but a benefit was seen in patients with established cardiovascular disease," said lead investigator Dr. Deepak Bhatt, of the Cleveland Clinic Cardiovascular Coordinating Center in Ohio.

A study of more than 15,000 patients showed that combining clopidogrel with aspirin may do more harm than good for patients at risk of heart disease, but it may help those who have already had an MI or stroke.

The results confirm aspirin as "the gold standard" for treating patients at risk of heart disease, according to Dr. Charles Hennekens, of the University of Miami School of Medicine. The study findings "redouble the message that aspirin has the best benefit-to-risk and the best benefit-to-cost ratios of any heart drug out there," he added.

The study included patients who had a previous MI, stroke, or impaired circulation (stable heart disease group), along with patients with cardiovascular risk factors, such as diabetes, hypertension or hyperlipidemia.

At 28-month follow-up, the researchers found a 7.3% risk of mortality, MI or stroke in patients assigned to placebo plus aspirin, compared with 6.8% for those patients on clopidogrel plus aspirin - a nonsignificant difference. The addition of clopidogrel did reduce hospitalization rate from 17.9% to 16.7%.

When the analysis was limited to the 12,153 patients with established heart disease, clopidogrel reduced the combined risk of mortality, MI or stroke from 7.9% to 6.9%.

"There is no reason to use the combination therapy for primary prevention, whereas it might be useful in patients who have already had a heart attack or stroke," Dr. Bhatt said.

The trial showed no significant increase in severe bleeding in patients with cardiovascular disease. But the addition of clopidogrel may have increased the risk of severe bleeding and death in patients with risk factors for heart disease, the researchers said.

"Aspirin is tough to beat, but it too has bleeding risk," Dr. Bhatt added.

Last edited by Connie122516; 08-06-2006 at 10:01 AM.

 
Old 08-06-2006, 09:56 AM   #11
Veteran
(female)
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 310
Connie122516 HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix



Just wanted to add that I appreciate this discussion...it's always good to see different points of view, and it prompted me to update my own research on Plavix...had been awhile since Iwent to PubMed, Medscape etc. specifically on this med.

 
Old 08-07-2006, 05:23 AM   #12
Senior Veteran
(male)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,484
Lenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

I have trouble any time I read anything like "so can aspirin" as in "Plavix can cause serious bleeds but then SO CAN ASPIRIN."
It really is akin to saying that slicing your throat with a 12 inch chef's knife can cause bleeding but the so can shaving.
Yes that's true but DEGREE is important.

I have taken rather high dose aspirin all my life and NEVER saw any bleeding, or untimely clotting from it but after two weeks of Plavix I was a veritable GEYSER of blood.

There is no comparison to the dangerous bleeding risk of the two drugs.

p.s. Now that the courts have just found that Bristol Meyers Squibb- Sanofi Aventis improperly acted to keep the generic clopidogrel off the market (by paying HUGE bucks to it's manufacturer,) the generic wll likely be available this year. After the BILLIONS stop going into the patent holders hands, lets watch and see if we start getting some less favorable horror stories about the drug...and how truly awful the bleeding situation is. And maybe even how very much moolah was given to doctors to prescribe it.
I'd like to see someone go to jail...to Hell with a fine.

Put ONE CEO and ONE doctor in the slammer for 5 years with LOTS of publicity and the whole medical profession will clean up it's smarmy little drug act overnight.

Last edited by Lenin; 08-07-2006 at 05:27 AM.

 
Old 08-07-2006, 02:56 PM   #13
Newbie
(female)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: California
Posts: 4
CatKiki HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

I have been taking plavix daily along with bp meds for over a year and a half, when I had a stroke. I was taking an aspirin daily but my doctor told me to stop. I have had some bruising but not all that much. I will bump myself and say oops! that will leave a mark and it usually does.

I consider the alternative. When I was in the hospital, they had to take my blood THREE times because it clotted before they were able to get it to the downstairs lab. While there, they gave me a bloodthinner shot in my belly twice daily. You should have seen THAT bruise!!! My whole belly was one big bruise.

I am still in danger of bloodclots, but since I have blood tests every 2 -4months (I see the doc every 2 months) I know the doc is on top of things.

 
Old 12-04-2006, 07:33 PM   #14
Newbie
(male)
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7
pwplant HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

I've taken plavix for approximately 3 months now and I've wondered often where the brusing came from so now I know. I hardly ever bruised before my heart attack 3 months ago. And my nutristionist said she was going to have to get me off this stuff, is that bad? Yes I bruise but if thats all I have to worry about I think I can live with it. I just hate that fact that I have to take meds to survive. I do to high blood pressure meds as well as metropolol plavix and aspirin every day. Does anyone else take the same meds and how are you functioning?

Last edited by pwplant; 12-04-2006 at 07:55 PM.

 
Old 12-05-2006, 05:50 AM   #15
Senior Veteran
(male)
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,484
Lenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB UserLenin HB User
Re: Bruising on Plavix

With a stent I of course want to continue a platelet "unstickifier." I dutifully took the Plavix/aspirin combo for 6 weeks after my stent (and then dutifully forced myself to take Plavix every SECOND day for the next two weeks.) My doctor wanted 90 days but settled for my 60 day choice <I never told him about the last two weeks > after the results of the CURE STUDY convinced me that ALL the benefits of aspirin + Plavix over aspirin alone occur in the first two months after stent placement.

Since I had read a LOT about the horrific bleeding problems with clopigogrel and experience first hand severe femoral bleeding with the loading dose, and then had daily nosebleeds for 2 months afterward I felt I HAD to get off this awful drug.

I have taken daily aspirin, 650 mg., for many years and NEVER experienced nosebleeds or easy bruising so aspirin alone will be my sole anti-platelet agglomerating agent.
The CURE study shows clearly that aspirin and Plavix work equally well...and you can buy a bottleful of generic aspirin for the price of ONE Plavix tablet.

Aspirin works but nobody can get rich off it. So $$alternatives$$ MUST be rammed down our throats.

Last edited by Lenin; 12-05-2006 at 05:51 AM.

 
Closed Thread

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Board Replies Last Post
Spontaneous bruising SureShotZeke Blood and Blood Vessel 2 04-06-2009 10:41 AM
Questions about stopping plavix after 1 month s-larette Heart Disorders 47 09-10-2008 01:13 PM
my doctor wants me to stop taking plavix,after taking it four yrs? ralean01 Heart Disorders 6 08-29-2008 01:34 AM
plavix & aspirin is killing my stomach enie Heart Disorders 22 01-04-2007 11:02 AM
How bad is your bruising? onstack Heart Disorders 6 06-27-2006 11:27 AM




Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Join Our Newsletter

Stay healthy through tips curated by our health experts.

Whoops,

There was a problem adding your email Try again

Thank You

Your email has been added








TOP THANKED CONTRIBUTORS



Machaon (77), Vyking (50), sjb (25), JJ (22), ladybud (18), started04 (15), rosier (9), Beefsteak (8), cvcman (8), Fizzickle (6)

Site Wide Totals

teteri66 (1164), MSJayhawk (997), Apollo123 (898), Titchou (833), janewhite1 (823), Gabriel (758), ladybud (745), sammy64 (666), midwest1 (665), BlueSkies14 (610)



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:02 AM.



Site owned and operated by HealthBoards.comô
Terms of Use © 1998-2014 HealthBoards.comô All rights reserved.
Do not copy or redistribute in any form!