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Old 04-25-2005, 01:10 PM   #1
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Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Hello,

Yes, two years ago I had Total Cholesterol in the 205 range. At the time the doc thought that with added fish oil and olive opil I should be fine. Here I am two years later and one test had total cholesterol at 250 and the second at 270. Now Doc says I have a heredity issue involved and is putting me on Vytorin as he said I am high risk for future heart disease. No problem here but can someone give me the appropiate or acceptable ranges for Total Cholesterol, HDL, LDL and tryglycerides?
This is all new to me and I am also thinking of purchasing a cholesterol machine (small) that gives all of these readings and lipid panels plus glucose with one drop of blood. Why give the docs money when I can monitor at home once in awhile?
Has anyone used one of the cholesterol machines ? How does it compare and work?

Any help appreciated

 
Old 04-25-2005, 04:42 PM   #2
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heart44 HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumper
Hello,
two years ago I had Total Cholesterol 205 range
added fish oil and olive oil
two years later, TC 250 and 270
Doc says I have a heredity issue involved and is putting me on Vytorin.
Has anyone used one of the cholesterol machines ?
How does it compare and work?
Hi Stumper,

I highly recommend that everyone should ask for copies of their bloodwork.
1) It's good to have copies of your test history, so you can follow your progress
2) handy if you need to change doctors, so new doc knows more about your history
3) test results shows the test parameters used by the lab [range]

These are general values:
LDL - <130 mg/dL
HDL - >40 mg/dL
Triglycerides - <150 mg/dL
Total Cholesterol - <200mg/dL
The above are USA values

Total Cholesterol in and of itself is very misleading and should not be used to determine if you need cholesterol lowering meds.

How much omega 3 where you taking? Our PCP recommends starting with 1,000mg and increasing to 6,000mg. Omega 3 is good for all aspects of heart health; lowers LDL and raises [good] HDL.

High triclycerides??? This is usually due to refined carbs, especially anything white [flour, rice, potatoes] and sugar.

If you are following a low fat - low cholesterol diet, and possibly high carb diet, this might be one of the reasons your cholesterol is climbing. Eating cholesterol does not raise one's cholesterol levels.

Our bodies NEED cholesterol, especially our brains and hearts.

Now, if your doctor really wants to determine if you are at risk for a heart attack or stroke, ask him to do the following bloodtests:
* homocysteine
* Lp(a)
* CRP
These "factors" indicate inflammation. Inflammation can indicate the potential for blood clots. It is blood clots that cause heart attacks and strokes, NOT high cholesterol.

Vytorin is two drug in one. It's a combination of Zetia [non-statin] and Zocor [statin]. Did your doctor explain the possible side effects? Report any muscle and/or joint pain IMMEDIATELY to your doctor.

I've not used any home cholesterol tests kits. If you decide to try one, make sure you fast 12 to 14 hours before the test.

Hope you find this info useful.

Frankie

 
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Old 04-25-2005, 05:03 PM   #3
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babydog HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

You mention using olive oil in an attempt to control your cholesterol.
If you could post all of your numbers that would be great
BUT
if you went overboard on the olive oil and "good fats" you should know that too much of any fat, yup, even good fat can rake havoc on your cholesterol levels.

I found this out the hard way when I started using too much of those cholestrol control spreads. Lots of monounsaturated fat. I figured more was better, right. I was eating it at 3 meals a day. As a result my cholesterol zoomed to 258 with an LDL of 184

I am telling you this on the assumption that your total is due to a high LDL. A high LDL can be brought down by a low fat diet. I was able to bring mine down from 258 to 206 (LDL 130 and HDL 59) in 90 days by REALLY watching my fat intake and exercising.

As for acceptable levels , this is a very gray because it is determined by ATP guidelines based upon your risk factors. It is my understnding that that for most of us, outside of having heart disease or diabetes, etc., should probably shoot for an LDL below 130. That requirement goes down to 100 and even 70 depending upon the number of risk factors you have and the zelaousness of your physician. Tryglicerides should be below 150. HDL - the higher the better and certainly no less than 40.

Post your numbers if you have them!

 
Old 04-25-2005, 06:35 PM   #4
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Heart44,

Thanks so much for all of the info This all is really helpful to me.




Quote:
Hi Stumper,

I highly recommend that everyone should ask for copies of their bloodwork.
1) It's good to have copies of your test history, so you can follow your progress
2) handy if you need to change doctors, so new doc knows more about your history
3) test results shows the test parameters used by the lab [range]
You know what? You are absolutely right. I pay for these tests and I should have copies of my medical records and tests. I have a right to them AND if I change doctors I have these to give to him. Thanks for this advice.

Quote:
These are general values:
LDL - <130 mg/dL
HDL - >40 mg/dL
Triglycerides - <150 mg/dL
Total Cholesterol - <200mg/dL
The above are USA values

Total Cholesterol in and of itself is very misleading and should not be used to determine if you need cholesterol lowering meds.
Very good. This helps me alot. Why is total cholesterol misleading?

Quote:
How much omega 3 where you taking? Our PCP recommends starting with 1,000mg and increasing to 6,000mg. Omega 3 is good for all aspects of heart health; lowers LDL and raises [good] HDL.
Actually when I had my former tests 2 years ago I had been taking 2 tablespoons of Cod liver oil several months before the tests. I was not really taking it for cholesterol at the time but was more concerned in trying to control my HBP. Then when I had tests done I had a 205 total cholesterol and I THINK it was a 47 HDL. At that time the doc said I was "right there on the border but acceptable". He did not recommend Statins at the time.

Quote:
High triclycerides??? This is usually due to refined carbs, especially anything white [flour, rice, potatoes] and sugar.
Good information as I love potatoes and sweets accept that I avoid sweet sugar drinks and have avoided them for about 15 years now due to teeth. So that was a good thing.

Quote:
If you are following a low fat - low cholesterol diet, and possibly high carb diet, this might be one of the reasons your cholesterol is climbing. Eating cholesterol does not raise one's cholesterol levels.
The doc tells me to avoid all dairy products. I have not really been following a low fat diet as of late, prior to my tests. My high numbers really surprized me. But I was taking niacin as a first resort recommened by the doc in my first test and here I thought it would lower my cholesterol but it raised it it seems.

Quote:
Our bodies NEED cholesterol, especially our brains and hearts.
Good information. But how much is to much? Or to little? That is whyI am considering a cholesterol machine because then I can check to see how my diet or statins are affecting it without numerous doc visits which can be a real pain in the butt.

Quote:
Now, if your doctor really wants to determine if you are at risk for a heart attack or stroke, ask him to do the following bloodtests:
* homocysteine
* Lp(a)
* CRP
These "factors" indicate inflammation. Inflammation can indicate the potential for blood clots. It is blood clots that cause heart attacks and strokes, NOT high cholesterol.

This is good info. He never mentioned these to me. He only saw a 270 total and I THINK my LDL was around 200 which is rather high for sure but not overcomeable especially if I was lower 2 years prior. He did not mention HDL so I am assuming it was good and I should have asked him.
Here is what puzzles me though, and I mean PUZZLES me. The DAY BEFORE I had blood work taken I went to the drug store and picked up a home test for about ten bucks. I checked it the PRESEDING morning before I went to get actual blood work and I showed a 190 TOTAL cholesterol. The next morning I went to the lab for blood drawing for the doc. When I went in he showed a 270 total and I told him I took a home test and it showed 190. He said he was not sure how accurate those were. So I was rather shocked.Obviously I almost HAVE to go with their lab results as the first test showed 250 and the second one showed 270. Again 2 years prior it was 205.

Quote:
Vytorin is two drug in one. It's a combination of Zetia [non-statin] and Zocor [statin]. Did your doctor explain the possible side effects? Report any muscle and/or joint pain IMMEDIATELY to your doctor.
He told me that MOST individuals who take these never know that they are even taking them. He also said that they can help lower my BP which is really not bad anyway in my opinion but nonetheless I am stopping BP meds now because of headaches all the time. And my bp is just fine. Today I had 132/82 and 126/78 and ewven had one at 119/72 at the Giant Eagle Lifeline machine which is very accurate.

Quote:
I've not used any home cholesterol tests kits. If you decide to try one, make sure you fast 12 to 14 hours before the test.

Hope you find this info useful.

Thank you
Again, this is very useful info. I plan on buying a Cholestorol monitor that in my opinion is probably worth every cent. It is supposed to give you all info with 1 drop of blood. LDL, HDL, TOTAL, Glucose levels and lipid of some sort. Should be able to get all for about 250 bucks or so and I think it is worth it. I guess he thought I was a high risk for future heart disease because of my age 49, cholesterol levels, and what he thought he saw as a little pulse pressure in my BP readings which BTW I just found out my machine is OFF, so the numbers I gave him were inaccurate and even then I thought they were quite good. As you can saee, my above BP numbers are quite good and if you saw me I am very robust at 5'11" at about 220 lbs but I walk alot and climb alot of stairs for a living and although I could lose a little weight I am not far from my post High School weight of 192 lbs when I lifted weights. Good old age creaps up on one though.

Thanks so much again

Last edited by Stumper; 04-25-2005 at 06:42 PM.

 
Old 04-25-2005, 06:55 PM   #5
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
You mention using olive oil in an attempt to control your cholesterol.
If you could post all of your numbers that would be great
BUT
if you went overboard on the olive oil and "good fats" you should know that too much of any fat, yup, even good fat can rake havoc on your cholesterol levels.

Good info. I did not know that to much olive oil can have an opposite affect. Originally he told me to cook with more olive oil and and eat more fish. But I honestly did not know that one could get to much. I was getting ready to take a couple of teaspoons of Olive oil a day, not a good idea perhaps?

Quote:
I found this out the hard way when I started using too much of those cholestrol control spreads. Lots of monounsaturated fat. I figured more was better, right. I was eating it at 3 meals a day. As a result my cholesterol zoomed to 258 with an LDL of 184

Good to know. Yes, I have used these as well thinking they would help me lower my numbers and yours look to be very close to mine.

Quote:
I am telling you this on the assumption that your total is due to a high LDL. A high LDL can be brought down by a low fat diet. I was able to bring mine down from 258 to 206 (LDL 130 and HDL 59) in 90 days by REALLY watching my fat intake and exercising.
How much fat intake to you take in a day? Do you avoid fried foods?

Quote:
As for acceptable levels , this is a very gray because it is determined by ATP guidelines based upon your risk factors. It is my understnding that that for most of us, outside of having heart disease or diabetes, etc., should probably shoot for an LDL below 130. That requirement goes down to 100 and even 70 depending upon the number of risk factors you have and the zelaousness of your physician. Tryglicerides should be below 150. HDL - the higher the better and certainly no less than 40.

Good info

Quote:
Post your numbers if you have them!

I really wish I could post them but I only have what I remembered and I am not due for an office visit until next month. Last week my total was 270 and I think my LDL was 200. The doc did not really panic but he asked me about my diet , said I had a heredity problem and am at high risk for future heart disease and wanted me on Vytorin. But If I get a machine I may not always be on Vytorin if I can get numbers down through diet. That is why I want a machine to avoid the doc , see what affects me,and make self testing easier and save $$$.

 
Old 04-25-2005, 11:17 PM   #6
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heart44 HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumper
Why is total cholesterol misleading?
It's the individual numbers that are important. Someone might have a TC of 190, which is considered OK. Their LDL might be OK, but have low HDL and high triglycerides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumper
He told me that MOST individuals who take these never know that they are even taking them.
Not always true. Read the literature. Ask the pharmacist for the "complete" package insert. Read all the fine print.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumper
He also said that they can help lower my BP .
I've never heard of cholesterol lowering drugs lowering BP, but I have heard of statins raising BP and causing blood sugar levels to fluctuate.

Keep in touch...... Frankie

 
Old 04-26-2005, 01:10 AM   #7
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumper
Has anyone used one of the cholesterol machines ? How does it compare and work?
I have a CardioCHek Analyzer. I bought it from Hewitts. Their service is truly dreadful but it was the cheapest. I now get my strips from TestSymtomsAtHome.

I love my machine. I have decided to forget the expense and test once a week until I understand how my body works.

There are some things to be aware of. First you need 3 lots of tests each time and 3 lots of blood. Both I and a friend have very little blood and you end up 'sticking' your finger three times. It's hard to get it into the capillary tube for the right amount. It's easier to do this just once or twice so you can see how much blood you need. After that you can drop it straight on this stick. Beware though. If you put a too small amount of blood on, it will misread and give you a lower figure.

The lance set at 3 is reasonably painless, just a quick ouch. You can turn it up to get more blood but you can feel it more. I recomend this to fill the capillary tube a couple of times so you are sure you know how much blood is needed. Empty the tube onto a peice of non-absorbent paper in one or two drops and take a good look so you can compare to the drops coming from your finger in future.

The official line is use the capillary tube every time. Also a clean 'stick'. Most diabetics I know that have to test each day use the same stick for up to a month, till it gets too blunt. Make sure you wash your hands well if you do this.

That should give you an idea of the pros and cons.

Regards, Gay

ps You can buy a dearer CardiChek that will test all three at once but the strips aren't much cheaper and you still need three lots of blood. All it save is a few minutes swapping the strips over and waiting for it to analyse.

 
Old 04-26-2005, 07:23 AM   #8
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babydog HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Hi Stumper,

Can't you call your doctor's office and ask them to give you a photocopy of your results? I had mine done on Friday and picked up my copy just yesterday.

You should keep of running file of these numbers to track your progress, see what works and what fails for you.

As far as my diet was concerned, for the first 90 days fat really was my enemy. I don't think I ate more than 10 grams of fat a day. Hard? A little bit but not impossible. I eat a lot of fiber cereal, fruit, skim milk, egg beaters, and soy bacon for breakfast. Try using fat free margarine, fat free cream cheese and fat free half n' half. My 7-11 has fat free capuccino! Yummy!

For lunch I love tuna salad but I use fat free mayonaise. Yes they really make such a thing. I can't tell the difference.

I have quite a sweet tooth and I stick to fat free candies (licorice, jelly beans, spice drops) and fat free pudding snacks.

At dinner, I am a big fan of cottage cheese, beans, fat-free hot dogs.

2 times a week I may have a meal prepared with olive oil. I realize now I can and should use olive oil. Just not go overboard. I love to prepare penne pasta with fresh garlic, olive oil and brocoli rabe. Add some italian bread, a glass of wine and anisette biscotti and coffee - great meal!

I have come to realize that this is going to be a chronic condition. I just had my numbers checked again.

In November, after 3 months of dieting and exercise they were
tc 206 was 258
ldl 130 was 184
hdl 58 was 67
trig 84 was 75

But this past friday
tc 227
hdl 64
ldl 148
trig 72

Some doctors go strictly by the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. Mine is 3.5 both at the 206 and the 225 level so needless to say I am confused as to whether the spike to 225 is bad or not since other doctors focus more on the fact that the total is over 200.

My doctor still feels I do not need medication as I have no other risk factors. Also my HDL is above 60 which is supposedly protective. I attribute the rise to the fact that the winter caused me to not want to exercise as much. I think exercise is as important if not more so than the diet.

My cholesterol has pretty much run between 210 and 235 for most of my lfie.
I have copies of lab tests from 1992 back when total cholesterol was allowed to be as high as 240 and still normal. What I wouldn't give to wake up tomorrow and find that they have "dumbed down" the requirements on TC again.

After labs made that change, it was determined that half of all americans have cholesterol levels higher than what is considered healthy. Moreover, half of all americans who get heart attacks have normal cholesterol levels. Given those 2 facts, what do you think these numbers really mean??????

Scaring people into thinking we are all a bunch of walking time bombs has probably done more to raise cholesterol levels than all the bacon cheese burgers in the world.

Oh, one more thing. About those cholesterol tests you get in the drug store. I have tried them and you can expect easily a 50 point difference (meaning the lab is almost guaranteed to be 50 points higher). don't waste your money on them.

You'll probably do better getting a monitor. I should get one of those too!

 
Old 04-26-2005, 12:37 PM   #9
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Stumper HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Gayclarke,

This is good info. Thanks.
How much did the monitor set you back? Moreover have you seen it to be accurate with lab results?

If it is then these would be so much the easier than a doc visit, plus you can see what affects you as well. I have no problems taking Vytorin for the time being but once I get a monitor I will reduce or eliminate my med if I can figure out what gets my numbers down.

How much are the test strips for it? How often do you use it?

 
Old 04-26-2005, 01:00 PM   #10
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by babydog
Hi Stumper,

Can't you call your doctor's office and ask them to give you a photocopy of your results? I had mine done on Friday and picked up my copy just yesterday.

You should keep of running file of these numbers to track your progress, see what works and what fails for you.

As far as my diet was concerned, for the first 90 days fat really was my enemy. I don't think I ate more than 10 grams of fat a day. Hard? A little bit but not impossible. I eat a lot of fiber cereal, fruit, skim milk, egg beaters, and soy bacon for breakfast. Try using fat free margarine, fat free cream cheese and fat free half n' half. My 7-11 has fat free capuccino! Yummy!

For lunch I love tuna salad but I use fat free mayonaise. Yes they really make such a thing. I can't tell the difference.

I have quite a sweet tooth and I stick to fat free candies (licorice, jelly beans, spice drops) and fat free pudding snacks.

At dinner, I am a big fan of cottage cheese, beans, fat-free hot dogs.

2 times a week I may have a meal prepared with olive oil. I realize now I can and should use olive oil. Just not go overboard. I love to prepare penne pasta with fresh garlic, olive oil and brocoli rabe. Add some italian bread, a glass of wine and anisette biscotti and coffee - great meal!

I have come to realize that this is going to be a chronic condition. I just had my numbers checked again.

In November, after 3 months of dieting and exercise they were
tc 206 was 258
ldl 130 was 184
hdl 58 was 67
trig 84 was 75

But this past friday
tc 227
hdl 64
ldl 148
trig 72

Some doctors go strictly by the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL. Mine is 3.5 both at the 206 and the 225 level so needless to say I am confused as to whether the spike to 225 is bad or not since other doctors focus more on the fact that the total is over 200.

My doctor still feels I do not need medication as I have no other risk factors. Also my HDL is above 60 which is supposedly protective. I attribute the rise to the fact that the winter caused me to not want to exercise as much. I think exercise is as important if not more so than the diet.

My cholesterol has pretty much run between 210 and 235 for most of my lfie.
I have copies of lab tests from 1992 back when total cholesterol was allowed to be as high as 240 and still normal. What I wouldn't give to wake up tomorrow and find that they have "dumbed down" the requirements on TC again.

After labs made that change, it was determined that half of all americans have cholesterol levels higher than what is considered healthy. Moreover, half of all americans who get heart attacks have normal cholesterol levels. Given those 2 facts, what do you think these numbers really mean??????

Scaring people into thinking we are all a bunch of walking time bombs has probably done more to raise cholesterol levels than all the bacon cheese burgers in the world.

Oh, one more thing. About those cholesterol tests you get in the drug store. I have tried them and you can expect easily a 50 point difference (meaning the lab is almost guaranteed to be 50 points higher). don't waste your money on them.

You'll probably do better getting a monitor. I should get one of those too!

Babydog,

It sounds as though you have a very good diet. And by that I mean one that I could live with.
Thanks for letting me know about the discrepincies in drug store related cholesterol tests. This would certainly explain the 80 point difference with the lab.


Yes, I need to call the Dr.s Offfice and get a copy of my Cholesterol results. I have to call them within the next couple of weeks anyway and will request a copy. When I was there last he failed to give me a paper to get my blood rechecked at the lab to see how my numbers are doing upon my next visit. I will certainly have to pick this up and I will get photocopies at that time.


On risk factors I guess it kind of puzzles me. I do not smoke, never did, well maybe in High School a little behind the backstop
I do not drink much at all. Just a little wine during special occassions. Alcohol shoots my BP up really fast.

And I guess its my age, male, 49, could lose a few pounds but in good condition and a little HBP with so called pulse pressure (according to doc) which I do not see. Of course I just found out my BP monitor may be off cuz even my wife now has said she is getting funny readings. I just checked BP and it was 121/77. That is nice for anyone. However my BP will rise during the day above the 140/90 rate sometimes in the 150's and then I feel it in my head which is why I have chosen BP meds to help me .
But my risk factors are not totally enormous if you ask me.
SOMETIMES I just think the doc wants people to rely on them for their living and the more they press it the more visits they get.
They use words like "clogged" arteries and so forth. But I have exceptional stamina for a 49 year old mybe even surpassing many 20 year olds. No shortness of breathe or anything.


Again, thanks for your reply.

 
Old 04-26-2005, 01:07 PM   #11
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Babydog,


I forgot to mention this and you might find it interesting as well.

I live in an Amish area in Northeast Ohio and the Amish seem to go against all conventional wisdom when it comes to diets. Food does not scare them. And by that I mean all the rich buttery high fat delicious food we are all taught to avoid. All the men for the most part are slender or of average build. The difference is they work hard and their bodies can afford all that luscious food.
My mother used to believe that anyone could eat all the fat they wanted if they worked hard. For that matter she felt they needed extra fat in the diet. She used to use the example of the 65 year old Bishop who farms my dads property here and walks up and down the field with his plow all day behind a horse. The man eats sausage every day. AND a whole lot more but he is well conditioned and slender.
Amazing isn't it?


I have worked very hard on the farm myself growing up and we could (brothers and I) eat a horse. Food did not scare us either back then. So I guess the human body was made for all that food and fat if we use it hard. But if we do not then of course we need to back off some for our own good as well.

Last edited by Stumper; 04-26-2005 at 01:11 PM.

 
Old 04-26-2005, 02:42 PM   #12
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Stumper,

What were/are the ages of your 4 grandparents?

 
Old 04-26-2005, 04:34 PM   #13
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenin
Stumper,

What were/are the ages of your 4 grandparents?

Lenin,

That is a good question. On my Dads side I never knew his parents as he was a foster child. He had a very hard childhood both him and his brother and 1 sister. His mother (my Grandmother) died when my dad was 4 years old from Pnuemonia. His Dad basically turned all of his kids over to Foster care and wound up on skid row. I never knew him nor did my Dad. Don't know where he died nor is buried. My dad is now 84.
On my mothers side her mom( my grandmother) died at 73 from hardening of Arteries. She was from Chekoslovakia. I hardly knew her as I was only in the first grade when she died. Her Dad (my grandfather) fell down the basement steps and hit his head and died at 65 years of age. Again, I never knew him but he was a big drinker as well, one of the best cabinet makers in Cleveland and originally from Chekoslovakia.(Sp?)

 
Old 04-26-2005, 05:09 PM   #14
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babydog HB User
Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Hi Stumper,

If your dad is still alive at 84, that sounds like you'll be all right. Even your grandmother who died at 73 of hardening of the arteries, she was still 73. Not bad for her generation. The good thing is that you are being proactive.

Like you, I am 49 also! And being female, I read that cholesterol levels go wacky as we approach menopause so I guess this is to be expected.

You are right in that I have found a diet that I can live with. That makes it easier to keep from falling from grace. But there are so many foods out there to day that are low in fat or better yet fat free that it is pretty easy today.

Your life in amish country in Ohio is interesting. I used to go on vacation to Amish country in Lancaster Pennsylvania. A week out there was good for a 10 pound weight gain! Yeah I would catch those farmers bathed in sweat. Bacon and sausage was not made for those of us who spend our day sitting in front of a computer exercising our finger joints!

 
Old 04-26-2005, 05:23 PM   #15
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Re: Can someone give me the rundown on Cholesterol numbers ?

Stumper,

Well, you and me seem to have something in common. My grandparents on my father's side were also from Czechoslovakia. In fact, I believe some of my father's cousins still live out around the Cleveland area. And there are others living in Pennsylvania. When my grandfather first came to this country, he worked in the mines near Youngstown, Ohio, until there was a flood and he almost drowned. Oh yes, my father told me many stories about the Sunday afternoon visits with relatives, and all the drinking that they did. I think they used to have some pretty lively get togethers back then.
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