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zip2play 10-29-2004 10:47 AM

I'm Trying Something
 
I guess most of you know that I've been taking one or two of virtually ALL of the classes of drugs for hypertension over the last 25 years.
Well I am experimenting with something NEW: NO CLASSES of drugs!:D

A week ago I stopped my cozaar (100mg) + HCTZ(50mg.). My BP climed steadilt for the next 5 days peaking at near 160/100 for a couple readings (take three, drop high and low) THEN it started backing off.

TODAY, I got 141/90 and then 4 hours later, 140/85.

I suspect (HOPE?) that the surge was a rebound effect, primarily from the years of thiazide, because my weight spiked up 5 pounds by the second day and now has backed off back down to normal.

Raises a couple interesting points that may clear up as more time goes by.
1. Can we become addicted/habituated to these drugs such that we are worse without them then if we had never taken them?
2. Is there a feedback system that tries HARDER to raise BP when we try to force it down.

<I am sooo glad I resisted the urge to pop an HCTZ on the third day to lose some of this bloat.>

If I can get an undrugged 139/89 regularly I would be deliriously happy. I really feel GREAT without the meds. I'd forgotten what unmedicated FELY like!

More developments as they occur.

zuzu8 10-29-2004 11:01 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
Wow..Fascinating questions, zip!

Gonna let [U]you[/U] be the guinea pig for the nonce. I'm too much of a wimp.

This is going to be [B]really interesting[/B], that is if you don't chicken out! ;)

zuzu xx

Scout- 10-29-2004 11:02 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
[QUOTE=zip2play]I guess most of you know that I've been taking one or two of virtually ALL of the classes of drugs for hypertension over the last 25 years.
Well I am experimenting with something NEW: NO CLASSES of drugs!:D

A week ago I stopped my cozaar (100mg) + HCTZ(50mg.). My BP climed steadilt for the next 5 days peaking at near 160/100 for a couple readings (take three, drop high and low) THEN it started backing off.

TODAY, I got 141/90 and then 4 hours later, 140/85.

I suspect (HOPE?) that the surge was a rebound effect, primarily from the years of thiazide, because my weight spiked up 5 pounds by the second day and now has backed off back down to normal.

Raises a couple interesting points that may clear up as more time goes by.
1. Can we become addicted/habituated to these drugs such that we are worse without them then if we had never taken them?
2. Is there a feedback system that tries HARDER to raise BP when we try to force it down.

<I am sooo glad I resisted the urge to pop an HCTZ on the third day to lose some of this bloat.>

If I can get an undrugged 139/89 regularly I would be deliriously happy. I really feel GREAT without the meds. I'd forgotten what unmedicated FELY like!

More developments as they occur.[/QUOTE]

You're a fantastic poster on this board :) I really hope your experiment leads to you having an unmedicated, good BP.

I worry alot about drug dependancy and the thought that over time it can become an endless cycle of 'feed the need' I personally believe that if you stay on a drug long enough your body can forget how to cope without the drug and/or start resisting said drug, thus leading to upped dosage for the same effect. Of course that's just my personal belief :)

Once again, Good Luck.

Scout.

Random2 10-29-2004 12:44 PM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
Good Luck! I am too much of a wimp as well I guess. I want to do the same thing, but it will take weaning. One thing at a time.

stackzone 10-29-2004 02:53 PM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
@##@ing awesome post zip. My theory---Question #1 answer/ YES #2/ answer YES. I believe I was medicated to heavy too early and now Ill need them forever.
Questions:
Dont you have you wean off of those meds?
What was your pre med pressure?
Did you instantly feel better or did it take a couple of days?
How dangerous is what you are doing?

Palamedes 10-29-2004 03:49 PM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
[QUOTE=zip2play]2. Is there a feedback system that tries HARDER to raise BP when we try to force it down.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it's called renin. Your kidneys produce this in response to a low sodium or low volume (i.e. low BP) situation. Renin is an enzyme that converts angiotensinogen to angiotensin I. And, we all know that ACE then converts I -> II. Which in turn causes BP to go up.

So, if you eat lots of salt, you are screwed. No renin. But, your BP goes up naturally from the volume. If you cut the salt, you're screwed because your kidneys are giving a feedback that ultimately causes vasoconstriction.

In some folks (high renin), this feedback can actually cause BP to be higher in a low sodium/low volume situation. That's why diuretics don't work for everybody. However, if this feedback mechanism is blocked (ACEI or ARB), then diuretics can give better results.

In others (salt sensitive folks), little renin is produced. Therefore, little feedback response. Diuretics work great for these people.

Pal

don444 11-01-2004 04:23 PM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
Once I was on Altace and it worked great to reduce my BP, however, I developed a cough and discontinued it. BP went back to 140/85. I got serious about dieting and managed to lose a mere 10 pounds to my surprise my BP went down to the same level as when I was on Altace. Problem is I am 61, with thyroid problem, and it is tough to lose the weight and keep it off.

zip2play 11-02-2004 04:11 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
It's going well and WHAT a boost to my metabolism. I really think I can eat about 200 calories more and hold weight, though it's been too short a period to get definitive. I'm seeing reading (LOTS AND LOTS OF READINGS:D) in the 135/150 and 87/93 range. Not good but not TOO bad. I'd like to see better, but the numbers aren't so scary as to induce me to stop my "drug trial"...I'm playing the role of PLACEBO!

A big difference is how readily my pulse rate goes up on the stationary bike :bouncing: . Yesterday I peaked at 145BPM :eek: with 20 minutes over 120....I backed offf a bit because the 140, being so RARE, made me a bit nervous...I didn't want to burp up a STENT :eek:..."hey, did somebody drop this bloody spring?":D !

I'm keeping this list SEPARATE from my bound notebook of medicated readings and use the loose leaf recorded test for my eyes only...I don;t want to give the doctor palps. Poor soul, he is a delicate flower and I must filter info for his "widdeww ears" <in my best Elmer Fudd.>

Dback,
You asked about my pre-med BP...Hard to say, I went to see the doctor in 1975 for a terrible feeling of unease caused by winter depression and too many Manhattans...well, he got something like 900/700 ;) (white coat) and I was off to the races with thiazides, then nadolol (try this beta if you ever want your SOCKS knocked off) and on and on.

Effect of withdrawal took about 3 days for real PEP.
Ther's no need to ween from the losartan-thiazide...though you DO blow up FAST from thiazide withdrawal...AMAZING feedback loop for diuretics.

(I can't type any faster though :confused: )

More as it unfolds.

Gotta go vote...they're lining up (next door to the polls!)

Random2 11-02-2004 06:15 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
The meds. are a horrible treadmill that is very diffucult to come off of. I tried the weaning myself from 100 MGS to 50 MGS to Atenolol. Felt like junk with increased pulse that day. Why don't the docs. say that if they are putting you on a med. that you will eventually get off of that it is going to require weaning, it is addictive, & etc. I know that I will waste my yearly deductible trying to go the doc. next week. with these #'s & trying to wean on 100 MGS of Atenolol & 5/20 of Lotrel, but I'm going to give it a shot.

118/66 Yesterday at Noon (4 MGS of Xanax)
125/75- Last Friday (Weaning from 4 MGS to 2 MGS of Xanax)
124/74 Last Thursday (Weaning from 4 MGS to 2 MGS of Xanax)
116/66 Average with 12 reading for the rest of the month (On my normal dose of Xanax).

120/78 in his office & he wouldn't let me wean. I don't think that this time will be much different.

I'm 34, 5'11 150. Perfect blood tests, EKG & Chest Xray. I played a show in 90 degree heat yesterday & felt like a champ even after 1 1/2 hours. My Bass Player (who is 200 pounds & my Guitarist who is about 190) felt like they were going to pass our after the show. I was ready for more.

I don't get it.

Palamedes 11-02-2004 06:21 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
Zip,

I was on HYZAAR for about 1 month. I believe you were taking the same thing but as two separate meds. I found it to be generally tolerable. However, it made me hungry all the time. And, it had a huge negative impact on my exercise performance. I had to walk a good part of my 4 mile run which I have been consistently running for over 2 years. When I first started taking it, I dropped about 5 pounds of water weight right off the bat. Of course, after a month this was replaced with 10 pounds of real fat weight. Furthmore, it did absolutely nothing for my BP. In any case, weight control was my main reason for dropping this. Unfortunately, I had it in a combo form. So, I couldn't tell for 100% certainty if it was the COZAAR or the HCTZ. Probably, the HCTZ was the culprit. When I dropped HYZAAR (on my own, I didn't ask no stinkin' doctor), my exercise performance and appetite were restored to normal within a few days. I didn't really notice any BP changes even after being off HYZAAR for about 3 weeks. For me, it was a totally worthless drug.

However, on Benicar (no HCT), none of the problems exist. In fact, I noticed an immediate improvement in exercise performance. No appetite issues either. I am having no problem with weight control. And, my BP is now very well controlled.

As you know, Benicar and Cozaar are both ARBs. Unfortunately, I can't comment on Cozaar vs. Benicar directly. But, I can say that Benicar by itself is way outperforming HYZAAR (Cozaar + HCTZ) in every aspect of the game. Now, it's possible that the HCTZ was having such a negative effect that it was wiping out the entire response from Cozaar. I can't say for sure. BTW, I HATE those damn combo drugs! Especially, for starting out.

In any case, I'm not trying to sell you on Benicar. I am just relating some of my experiencese. I wish you the best in your little experiment. I do find it particularly interesting that you were noticing negative metabolic effects from that combo as well.

Pal

mgraylorn 11-02-2004 11:56 AM

Re: I'm Trying Something
 
Hyzaar was bad to me. I had a couple of incidents of intense sweating and nausea like I had the flu. Then I awoke in the middle of the night with a pulse rate of 125 and it didn't go down appreciably for hours. I was on vacation and made my friend get up in the middle of the night and drive me 50 miles to the nearest hospital. Drug didn't lower my bp either. I think I lasted 4 days on it.


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