C-12 peptide, I think, is an enzyme derived from casein in dairy products and/or the bonito fish. From what I understand, it acts like an ACE inhibitor affecting angiotensin. I don't know enough about medical science to say more!
There is some limited trial studies showing C-12 works on BP, and works fast. I have been taking it for over a year and I think it helps!
I think that c12 refers only to the peptide derived from casein. The research for this and fish peptides from the bonito fish were conducted separately.
Before finally taking ACEI and later an ARB, I was on the fish peptides for around three months. I did not get the results hoped for. I do know that it has worked for some people so I wouldn't discount it, just like I wouldn't discount ARBs just because it doesn't seem as effective with me either.
In my research, I found out that the coughing brought on by the ACEI is caused by a group of proteins called bradykinins. Angiotensin is supposed to catabolize this. When ACE is suppressed, the bradykinins go unchecked and will cause a cough in some suseptible individuals. ARBs on the other hand allow the production of Angiotensin. ARBs act instead by blocking the receptors of Angiotensin. As with taking the fish peptide, my ARB is slowly becoming ineffective.
Because the peptides did not cause coughing in my case, and because in studies, the peptides only lowered hbp but not normal pressure, I wonder what related mechanism aside from the ACE feedback loop that the researchers are missing.
I'm not a scientist so this is just my lay woman's reading of the literature. Hope a scientist in this board can help out.
Last edited by Mountainrain; 01-10-2008 at 02:10 PM.
Thanks for sharing, Mountainrain.
That's very interesting information.
My book about treatment of hypertension has a tiny section at the back with vitamins, antioxidants, minerals and nutraceuticals that reduce blood pressure. They are categorized by the antihypertensive effect they have. I was surprised to see it, actually, in this type of a book. The C-peptide is not included - however, bonito fish is - under angiotensin converting -enzyme inhibitors.
I went to see my favorite pharmacist today. She wasn't in. There was another young lady there just as helpful. I asked her about the difference between two types of Omega3's. She told me to put them back on the shelf and get the one she herself uses. I was floored to hear that she researches all of the brands available, their manufacturers and chemical composition of the pills before deciding on one brand/type for herself. Apparently, she does the same with any medication before she takes it herself.
I guess it goes to show one cannot be too careful when it comes to prescription and non-prescription drugs.
I hear you about the caution that supplements are not created equal. I did notice that there are at least two brands of fish peptide available. I was going to a naturopath doctor (ND) who let me take the brand of bonito fish peptide widely given by NDs to their patients. This didn't work, in my case. And it was expensive! To my ND's credit, I was referred to an MD when my pressure would not go down. My ND helped me for other conditions such as Irritable bowel and PMS, but not HBP. So now I'm in another road on my quest for BP control.
That book you have sounds interesting. I remember getting a vitamin-mineral intravenous injection composed of Vitamins B12, B5, magnesium, C and etc... at the ND's clinic when I was particularly run down. I think that many of these are also good for controlling HBP.
How is your blood pressure now and what meds are you on? The ACEIs and ARBs? I am glad you were referred to an MD for your hypertension. One of my friends keeps sending me to a naturopath and is quite insistent. She believes I'll be able to dump all meds and take herbs instead and maintain good blood pressure control using herbs alone. I wish it were that simple. I can't afford to experiment. I don't think I'd feel comfortable relying on alternative medicine completely. As you pointed out, herbal remedies are a good alternative to conventional medical treatments in some conditions but not others. I hope your meds are doing their job without causing you too much grief side-effect wise.
Last edited by flowergirl2day; 01-10-2008 at 09:34 PM.
Frankly, I have been afraid to monitor my BP for the last week. However, I do have an MD appointment on the 17th. I'm on an ARB at the moment.
Your story is the opposite of mine. A friend was so concerned that I was going for months with HBP that she went so far as to give me one scary scenario after another on the consequences of a stoke or heart attack. The thought of being so incapacitated, as well as the ND's recommendation sent me to my medical doctor. I feel comfortable with him because he respects my need to know about the actions of my medication, and is not close minded when it comes to the use of natural methods. For example, he kept me monitored when I decided to stop Effexor for depression and take St. John's Wort instead. So when he insists on a medication, I am more likely to listen.
Again, thank you. I'd be interest to hear what your pharmacist says about peptides.
I know when my blood pressure is high without the need for monitoring. I'll bet you do too!
ARB is a good med to be on. It should not cause you problems, even if you are sensitive to medication. Strangely, it happens to be the only class of hypertensives that I cannot tolerate at all.
I am glad your doctor is understanding and supportive. I wish all of them were! I hope he'll take good care of you and get your blood pressure under control.
When I talk to the pharmacist (on my next day off) I'll ask about her opinion on peptides for blood pressure control. They are having a supplement sale so I plan to go anyway!
Last edited by flowergirl2day; 01-11-2008 at 10:44 PM.
I just came from the doctor's. My BP was 140/84 in his office--a bit elevated. However, he did not up my dose of Atacand (8mg) because he attributed the slightly high reading to anxiety. He told me to monitor the BP and to come back when it remains elevated in home readings. Otherwise, my next appointment is in three months.
Considering my long hours working and anxiety producing situations I have been facing lately, my BP is lower than I expected. In the past, when I lack sleep because of my workload, my BP usually goes way up. This means that the Atacand dose is working. You are right, the ARB class of bp drugs seems to be a generally well tolerated medication even for someone sensitive to most meds like me.
ARB stands for Angiotensin II Receptor Blocker. Angiotensin is a substance in the blood that causes blood vessels to constrict. This constriction makes it harder for the blood to pass through, much like it is harder for water to pass through a hose with a smaller diameter. ARBs block the action of angiotensin so that blood vessels may remain relaxed and wide open.
P.s. In another thread, you mentioned that you had an awful cough with the ACEI you were taking. I had the same experience. ACEI prevents the production of angiotensin rather than block its action. ARB does not stop the production of the substance but blocks its receptors. Many people who had the cough side effect while on the ACEI do not get a cough with ARBs. By the way, like you, I have asthma, which is why my doctor did not give me a beta-blocker.
Hope this helps Vanessa. I hope you feel better.
Last edited by Mountainrain; 01-17-2008 at 07:07 PM.
Reason: Added a postscript
I did some reading about the peptides and found it fascinating! I could not remember which peptide you were asking about. I'll have to re-read your thread and post this weekend. I did not get a chance to discuss the peptides with the pharmacists as promised because I needed their opinion on another matter. I figure I can only ask one question at a time since I am not their customer. I'll do it next time.
I am so glad the ARBs seem to be working for you! Best of luck with the blood pressure control. You are doing great!
I know you research everything thoroughly and most likely know all of the following. Here is a bit of information for those who know as little about peptides as I do:
Endogenous natriuretic peptides are produced in our tissues in response to volume overload and the resulting stretching of the blood vessels. They are produced mostly in the heart and the blood vessels. Some of their main effects are vasodilation, reduction of angiotensin II and aldosterone actions, ihibiting of sodium reabsorption and slowing of the release of catecholamine from the adrenals. They also inhibit the release of renin.
All natriuretic peptides act in the blood vessels, heart, brain and have direct renal effects.
There are three main groups of peptides.
Atrial natriuretic peptide -ANP-with vasodilating and also lung bronchodilating action,
Brain natriuretic peptide -BNP- made in the myocardium in spite of its name
C-type natriuretic peptide -CNP-produced mostly in the brain and vascular system. This peptide is potent with the ability to dilate blood vessels. It is released by the endothelium when the blood vessels become stressed from the volume overload.
Peptides are important for good cardiovascular funtion. An infusion of atrial natriuretic peptide lowers blood pressure.
I went to two pharmacies today. There is no synthetic peptide available OTC in this country. The pharmacist said there's something being marketed in the US but did not know what. My favorite pharmacist at another pharmacy said no peptides are available anywhere as they are a natural substance made by our bodies.
The supplements she recommended for lowering blood pressure were fish and flaxseed oil, garlic, CoQ10, calcium and vitamin C. There were at least two others proven to work in lowering blood pressure, according to her database, with specific unusual names which I don't remember. People with low potassium levels should NOT take any apple cider vinegar. It does not have any proven blood pressure lowering properties as some people think, not even anti-inflammatory properties (which is why I take it). The pharmacists use a great database about herbal products and supplements with the results of all existing studies to date compiled and analyzed. I wished I could access it myself and told her so repeatedly. ( great database..hint...hint...what a great database...) I guess it's for pharmacists only. Her help was greatly appreciated . If I change pharmacies, that's where I will go.
You actually gave me some of the missing link I need to research further. I read up on studies that show that peptides from the bonito fish had shown promise as ACEI inhibitors. I wonder if we and fish have similar peptides. Maybe I should look up some of my friends with a science background and ask if this is so, if fish and other animals also have those three classes of peptides. I find promise in researching peptides/proteins because it seems to point to some deficiencies that may be addressed nutritionally. I notice that you listed CoQ10 in the list of nutrients helpful for hbp--like proteins it is naturally present in the body, and decreases in quantity as we age.
To me, the herbal approach is the same as taking the pharmaceutical approach--it is still a reliance on chemicals that are foreign to the body. I wonder if this is the reason why there is a greater possibility of getting side effects. I am always careful and suspicious even of herbs like hawthorn for HBP (or St. John's Wort for depression). When I do take herbs, I take them for the shortest possible time, and then I look for the amino acid or protein that supports a certain function. (For example, I now take the amino acid L-tryptophan to induce sleep and aid in dealing with depression). I hope I will be able to get off my ARB at some point.
Thank you so much for this information. You have been a gem. I also noted your advise in the chiro thread. I will interview my chiro before allowing that manipulation of my C1 vertebrae.
If and when I get more info on the peptides, I will let you know. Again, thank you so much.
I hope you'll post any successess or findings you think might help others. Your meticulous research sounds very time consuming. It is also perfectly understandable. We can't be too careful when it comes to our health. Making the effort to learn about the drugs, herbs and supplements before we actually use them and allow them to alter our bodily chemistry is well worth the time spent.
I wish you the best of luck with your experiment and hope you'll achieve a good blood pressure control.