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Old 08-23-2003, 03:10 PM   #1
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Post Blood pressure through the roof!!

I am hoping that someone out there can tell me what is going on with my blood pressure.

1- male
2- 40 years lod
3- do not drink
4- use tobbacco
5- take low dose aspirin every day
6- take Effexor 75 mg per day

I have always had "high" normal blood pressure 140/80 range. Lately I have been extremely high. 190/100 range. I went to the doctor just the other day and they checked it, but it was early in the morning and it checked 114/70. They told me that they wanted to check it over time and see what it does. I checked it this morning and it was 195/101, so I wenyt to the quack that I call a doctor and tried to get them to check it. After waiting for over an hour I decided to go back home and check it again. It was down to 149/91. I waited for about two hours and it was back down to 132/90 (this is about where my blood pressure has been since I was a teenager). I felt fine for a few hours, but then started feeling bad, so I checked it again and it was back up to 164/100. About 2-3 hours it stayed around that range then dropped back down to around 140/86.

I do not use a lot of salt. I weight within 10 lbs of my ideal body weight. I do not drink. I get a decent amount of excercise. Is this normal or should I keep pushing my doctor to help me get this under control?

Any help suggestions etc... would be appreciated. My wife says that she has used this board before and found it a great help.

Thanks & God Bless,

 
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Old 08-23-2003, 06:01 PM   #2
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Gale:

My own personal experience was that once I cut tobacco out, my average bp dropped about 30 mm Hg in both the systolic and diastolic values. It continued to decrease slowly thereafter, as I also lost weight and maintained exercise.

I was not surprised to see an effect on my bp from tobacco, but I found the magnitude of the effect surpising.

Ulrich

[This message has been edited by ubernier (edited 08-23-2003).]

 
Old 08-24-2003, 12:25 AM   #3
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Hi Gale- Your BP is certainly "labile" (basically meaning unstable and likely to change frequently).

Mostly your readings are now high and indicate that you probably need treament.

The new BP guidelines (published by the Joint National Committee on the Prevention, Detection, Evaluation and Treament of High Blood Pressure...through the NIH and the National Heart, Lung, Blood Inst.) that just came out for hypertension #s are stricter now...and suggest that serious lifestyle changes should be undertaken even if BP is in the "normal" range of 120-139 over 80-89. Anything above those #s is considered true hypertension and should be treated medically if changes in lifestyle don't do it. Ideally we want our BP to be at or below 120/80.

Make an appointment again for a monitoring at your doctor's.
And discuss with him how he wants to approach this...how many more monitorings would he suggest, etc.

zuzu xxx


 
Old 08-24-2003, 04:57 AM   #4
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Gale,

The fastest way to get labile blood pressure up is to monitor it often...LOL. Anxiety over BP never fails to raise mine.

zuzu,

I think the doctors and pharmaceutical companies should just come out and say what they mean instead of fudging numbers and fiddling spygmomanometers.

Of course this manifesto is:

"Everybody who own a wallet or who has health insurance is HEREBY deemed to have high blood pressure and must IMMEDIATELY begin drug treatment. It is recommended your doctor be seen at least weekly and we further recommend that only the newest (Patent protected) and most expensive drugs be used first. We recommend treatment to begin at puberty for best results."



[This message has been edited by zip2play (edited 08-24-2003).]

 
Old 08-24-2003, 06:11 AM   #5
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zip:
Love your manifesto - have often wondered if a similar one isn't the guiding force behind many of todays health guidelines. I'm waiting for the one that recommends that all left-handers should be vigorously persuaded to become right-handers. This based on research showing left-handers, on average, die 4 years earlier than right-handers. My goodness, what ever will I do with all my left-handed scissors??

 
Old 08-24-2003, 10:16 AM   #6
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Hey ZIP - I know you are skeptical about the new JNC 7 Guidelines but please notice I keep talking about lifestyles changes.!!
I AGREE with you that too many doctors are pushing drugs onto people WAY too soon before giving that person a chance to see if their #s can come down with diet, exercise, reduction of stress and anxiety, weight loss, cessation of smoking, reduction of salt intake etc.

Note though, that Gale is getting high readings at home (yes, anxiety about it all can contribute) but that's not true "white coat".

And when the doctor took it, it was gorgeous.(114/70)
Almost the opposite of what you would expect.

Anyway, what would you suggest a person like Gale do when repeated readings in any setting are high?
NOT make lifestyle changes?
NOT treat it medically if the above doesn't work?
NOT follow up with a doctor?

Seriously, forget the new guidelines.....what would you do with a readings of 190/100? 195/101? 164/100?

zuzu xxx (who, honest, is not a drug pusher!)



[This message has been edited by zuzu8 (edited 08-24-2003).]

 
Old 08-24-2003, 03:46 PM   #7
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Gale: Sorry to hear about the HP. I had high blood pressure for years, then a few months ago it dropped back to normal. I attributed it to all the calcium I was getting in the yogurt I had started eating. After a couple of months I grew tired of the yogurt, stopped eating it and found that my BP continued to stay low. I was elated. Then one day while shopping for food, I went to grab a bag of ground coffee, the brand I had always used, and discovered that I had been, for months, mistakenly buying decaf coffee. The connection was made. Hope this helps.

 
Old 08-25-2003, 02:06 PM   #8
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Zuzu, Zuzu,

My feelings are definitely in flux over this whole blood pressure thing!

I KNOW that body-weight change has a huge impact, and I also know that salt restriction to 2000 mg is virtually impossible. I have been experimenting for nearly 30 years on myself as to the effect of all classes of these drugs. I am slowly coming round to the idea that most are dreadful and cause more harm than good...and STILL don't get people into the recommended BP ranges. Just more and different combinations of drugs and a life with $$$tens of thousands$$$ less in disposable income.

As for regular doctor input. I am thinking hard of totally jettisoning them along with my very expensive health insurance. I am convinced that they all only pay lip service to the life-style-changes-first mantra....they KNOW they will have 95% fo their "diagnosed" patients on drugs.

The whole system is horribly broken.

Has ANYONE seen GOOD studies implicating a BP of 150/90, 160/95, or 165/95 with coronary heart disease. I never have. I welcome any reference to a good study showing the same.

Closest I've seen is a correlation between age/ arterial "stiffness" and HBP. Then the study concludes that the BP CAUSED the stiffness. I am an engineer and I understand hydraulics. It's a stiff hose that raises water pressure, not the other way round.

I use Lipitor to control Cholesterol....so straightforward! Cholesterol is very high before drug....after Lipitor...very low.
If BP drugs worked like that, well and good- BUT they don't! It's a lifetime of expensive fiddling.

Pardon the rant, but the whole subject has been bothering me a lot lately and when I read about NEW drugs and TIGHTER controls, I go into slow burn mode!
Thanks for listening.


 
Old 08-25-2003, 04:40 PM   #9
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Zip..Zip...Zip!
I totally undsertand your rant.
I understand all your conflicted feelings about ALL of the above.

But there are indeed too many studies now, which have concluded to a certainty that hypertension is ONE of five of the major risk factors for cardiovascular disease. The other four are cigarette smoking, diabetes, obesity, and high cholesterol.

Okay kid, here's what I've come up with for your further perusal:
First, the JNC 7 Report: [url="http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/jncintro.htm"]http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/jncintro.htm[/url]

Next: Study by Greenland et al: [url="http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/7/891"]http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/7/891[/url] published in JAMA
Next Study by Khot et al: [url="http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/7/891"]http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/290/7/891[/url] published also in JAMA

You made quite a big sweeping dismissal of BP drugs when you said "if BP drugs worked like that "(Liptor et al), well and good. But they DON'T"......

Are you saying they don't lower BP for most people? And in doing so, don't eliminate, or certainly reduce one of the serious cardiovascular risks hypertension poses?

After all my reading, I beg to differ!

zuzu xxx



 
Old 08-25-2003, 05:57 PM   #10
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PS Zip- Your analogy about the hose/water pressure and arterial "stiffness" is perfect......But I see NO studies that conclude that increased BP causes a decrease in arterial elasticty. Only the other way round....


In fact, the studies I have read all CONCUR WITH YOU that hypertension is usually caused by increased arterial stiffening, decreased vascular compliance, and diffuse atherosclerosis. Its prevalence increases with age in a curvilinear manner, and as we age, it represents all the target organ damage risks we've all discussed here before.

Q.E.D.

zuzu xxx

PSS You're fun to debate with!

 
Old 08-25-2003, 06:07 PM   #11
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Gale, my mother is nearing 50 and she had NEVER had high blood pressure in her life. She switched from Prozac to Effexor and had a stroke caused by phenomenally high blood pressure. None of us can prove it was the Effexor, but we're pretty sure. You may want to try a new med if at all possible.
Take care...

 
Old 08-25-2003, 06:28 PM   #12
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Arienh-
God, how terrible about your mother.
I know you can't prove it but all the litertature on Effexor says that in pre-marketing studies Effexor treatment WAS SOMETIMES associated with sustained increases in blood pressure, especially an increase in what they call supine (lying down) diastolic (the bottom number) blood pressure....It appears to be dose-related...the higher the dose the higher the risk of elevated BP in susceptible individuals.

I do hope your mom has or is recovering well....

It's a REALLYgood point you raised to GALE, and well worth investigating.

zuzu xx




[This message has been edited by zuzu8 (edited 08-25-2003).]

 
Old 08-27-2003, 10:38 AM   #13
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Phooey,

Unfortunately, I can't get at those JAMA reports with a guest membership and the OTHER is well...a PDF (and a HALF that will take some time to read)
But no studies shown so far...only conclusions!

Quote:
In fact, the studies I have read all CONCUR WITH YOU that hypertension is usually caused by increased arterial stiffening, decreased vascular compliance, and diffuse atherosclerosis. Its prevalence increases with age in a curvilinear manner, and as we age, it represents all the target organ damage risks we've all discussed here before.
OK, what does that mean: that all the real risks (and actual PRESENCE) of Cardio Vascular Disease can CAUSE HBP. If that is indeed so, then they CANNOT say with any confidence that HBP causes CVD, rather the other way round.
ERGO>>>treating the HBP is rather silly vis a vie prevention of heart disease and is only masking one symptom of the disease. Like painting the purple blotches of Kaposi sarcoma white in order to make the disease go away.

If indeed atherosclerosis is a primary cause of HBP (and not the other way round), then the only conceivable reason for a lifetime of meds can be the elimination of stroke risk. This is beginning to sound somewhat more plausible the more I think about it. No study showing higher death rates with HBP has much bearing on cause and effect.


What I want to get at is a controlled study with 2 groups with similar starting HBP's with half getting the plethora of drugs for a decade and the other getting NADA. My sample of 1 is my mother who took HBP meds for 2 decades and died from, you guessed it, CVD!

If they were risk free and cost free, the meds might be inconsequential (like Vitamin C) but remember that these current few generations of people are the first in history to medicate daily for more than half a lifetime in many cases with no less than 100 drugs. And the patients number in the 10's and soon (if not already) 100's of million patients. God knows the eventual consequences.


Zuzu,
How do you get the JAMA's, do you have a paid subcription or is there an ea$ier way



[This message has been edited by zip2play (edited 08-27-2003).]

 
Old 08-27-2003, 11:14 AM   #14
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Zip- I've gotta run out for an appt. but in the meantime, go here for the JNC 7 Report. Type JNC 7 in the search window.
[url="http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/index.htm"]http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/index.htm[/url]

Will catch up with you later to hash out more...now go to your room!

Love Z xx

OH DRAT- I just tried the link myself....it'll just give you the "express version"....
Can you not read a PDF on your computer?

PS As for the two other JAMA reports, didn't the pages open up onto a full and pretty detailed abstract? As far as I know I too just have a "guest" membership online...I'll check when I get back.


[This message has been edited by zuzu8 (edited 08-27-2003).]

 
Old 08-27-2003, 12:11 PM   #15
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What type of tobacco are you using? Do you smoke or chew or what?

 
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