Just when I thought this was gone for good...woke up this moring feeling like I couldn't track with my eyes properly. I tried to focus on something and my eyes wandered to the right a bit if I didn't hold them to a fixed gaze ... thought maybe just a bit groggy wakeing up, but not sure.
Got up and thought I was feeling a little too lightheaded so I did the MEP just to be sure, this is the first time I have done it in about 3 months. I was okay in all positions except the last one where I really had to hold my gaze fixed on my watch, I could do it but it was more work than I was happy with.
I have been going about 200miles an hour recently, feeling really good...just like old times. As usual I don't do things like the MEP or any specific balance work when I am feeling good, then suddenly I am doing it all again when I feel off. My balance is okay, pretty normal for not having been practicing those specific drills...
Subs, or anyone out there, do you have any idea what it means for me to have some mild symptoms in the last (head down) position in the MEP. I am only considering BPPV as I can't imagine another bout of LABs or anything else at this point. I am two months off the two year mark for the initial BPPV and am very interested in going the distance to 5 years without a recurrence ...(am hoping this is a blip and not a recurrence). I remeber a post somewhere saying you have to have 62 octonia loose to cause BPPV, maybe I just have 20 or so rattling around???
I have cancelled my workout today to lay low and see if this thing settles down..have to work all weekend and hate going to work feeling like crap.
Hope everyone else is doing well.
So sorry you aren't feeling well. Hopefully this is just a bump in the road. i wanted to say thank you for all your help when I was posting about the ringing in my ear. I've been going to accupuncture, taking Ginko, and some other chinese herbs, and knock on wood, things are better. Not perfect, I still have it sometimes, but better than it was. I'm just hoping that one day it will fade off and NEVER come back. I'm not sure what has caused it, whether it is stress from school, my history of ear problems, or what.
Anyway, I really really hope you feel better soon. I'm sure things will settle down. Hang in there.
I had a better afternoon and got a little exercise which helped, but am so tired right now I think I'll go to bed before 9 tonight.
Have you looked up the herb Vinpocetine? It comes from the perriwinkle plant and is supposed to help with blood flow to the inner ear and helps both tinnitis and vertigo. It is also a memory enhancer.
I am sure this latest blip is my body telling me to slow down, my life is so crazy with kids, sports, work etc etc that I seem to run everywhere I go. I suppose I should be thankful for having a built in "work-o-metre"
Hope your tinnitis completely goes soon, I am sure it will just vanish one day and you'll suddenly realize it's gone for good!
Glad to hear things are better. My ear ringing isn't much a problem right now, but strangley enough (well, maybe not really strange) my ears are acting up a bit in the dizziness department. Maybe it's because the ear ringing took it's toll, and my brain was overwhelmed. I'm not sure. I have good and bad times throughout the day. Nothing really bad, but a little distracting. I hope you feel better soon!
think ur thinking of this: (from the Northwestern Univ web site(sticky)
..."According to the canalolithiasis theory typical BPPV of the posterior canal is caused by otoconia that dislodge from the utricle and enter the semicircular canal where they move freely within the endolymph
This theory explains all features of BPPV and has been corroborated by the finding of dense particulate matter, free floating in the endolymph of the posterior canal of patients with BPPV.
It is now known that BPPV develops in stages:
first the otoconia detach from the utricular matrix, and then they enter into a semicircular canal when the head assumes a critical position.
Furthermore, it has been shown by means of physiomathematical models that the prerequisites for BPPV are:
(i) there should be approximately 62 otoconia within the semicircular canal and
(ii) these particles have to agglomerate in order to exert a hydrodynamic effect when moving in the canal........"..........
Further(from same site)
.." There are five factors which apparently predispose to BPPV:
trauma to the head, other ear disease, advanced age, migraine, and bed rest."....
If none of those have taken place recently---prob a "blip"----think---if it was me---I'd slow down a little---for a awhile----and return to some VRT---with a some MEP's on the side---occasionally to check---how its going
I strongly suspect---with this latest BPPV data
---that---once BPPV occurs---followed by a clearing---with the MEP/Epley
---that the approx 62 critical mass---is reduced---below---the mass necessary to---cause the---BPPV---symptoms
---but that---some---will still remain---and further build up---toward the critical mass---will take place---if the structure of the inner ear has been---weakened---how long that would/will take---suspect will vary---with the person/activity
A reason---to do---the MEP's---occasionally---I would think
Another data point from the sticky web site:
....."Interestingly, sleep seems to be involved in the pathophysiology of BPPV and many patients experience their first attack when moving in bed after awakening.
Recently, it has been shown that the side affected by BPPV correlates with the preferred position in bed. Freely moving otoconia in the labyrinth have a higher density than endolymph and follow gravity. In the right lateral supine position (for example) the openings of both the right posterior and the horizontal canals are in the lowermost position, which facilitates entry of heavy particles from the utricle".....
I don't think the whole story(data points) of this junk has been exposed---yet
---but it seems---at least to me---that MEP's---plus---reasonable VRT---either cures it---or holds it at bay
---with time, i.e., five year point---playing a role in the "cures it"---perhaps by dissolving the balance of any of the rocks below the critical mass
---in the "holds it at bay"---think it becomes "chronic" and MEP'/Epleys + VRT's will be required---to some extent---always
Also think---u don't know which category ur in---until u reach--the five to seven year point
What a piece of work---this junk is!!
P.s. Just back from PA's Grand Canyon area(close to the New York/PA border)---white water rafting, 57 mi mountain bike rides & horseback mountain trail ride---think I'll do some MEP's & VRT's---still at 100%(knock on wood)---no "nothing"
First of all, wow, what a trip! Must have been amazing scenery!! Would love to do something like that in the Grand Canyon of all places.
I am feeling better than I did when I wrote the thread, but am feeling tentative and am doing just what you said...more VRt and not going as hard. I am hoping it is not a chronic things, no real spin or visual blips like I had before fixing it with the mep so I think my body is just warning me.
Very interesting stuff, esp the sleeping thing. I am still very favorably sleeping on my left side, occasionally find my way over to the right but it will actually wake me up not feeling right somehow.
Off to work
I hope that you are feeling even better today.
I have a question for you: I also had BPPV last year, and had an epley preformed by a neuro-otoligst. I had a very bad reaction to the epley, and although the BPPV went away and never came back, I was left with severe balance problems, brain fog, nauseous, and feeling of constant false movement that gradually resumed after over half a year. I am not 100% yet, but am back to more or less "normal" life. One thing is that I am not sleeping on my "bad" side (left side in my case) for a year by now. The reason I stopped sleeping on that side was because at the time, when trying to lie on the "bad" side I got this spinning sensation, less intense then true vertigo, and when closing my eyes I sensed something like falling particles, gently falling like snow or confetti. It felt very unpleasant, and I could not fall asleep on this side. Once I turned in my sleep to that side, and woke up with a slightly spinning sensation. So after a while I decided not to sleep on the left side, and to wait until I am 100% well to try it again. But now a year has passed, I am not 100% yet and I am still afraid to sleep on the left side. Each time I try I do not feel "right". I get the feeling that BPPV will come again. I understood that you are not sleeping on your right side, is that your "bad" side? Any thoughts or suggestions on the subject?
Subs, I would be grateful if you could comment on this issue too.
I don't think theEpeley is actually responsible for you feeling the way you do...that is the nature of this problem. There was some damage done to your inner ear with the crystals floating around and your brain is trying to compensate for that damage.
If you are actually spinning at all with rolling in bed or going into any position, you may not have all of the crystal out. have you tried doing the Modified Epeley at home on your own? That is how I got rid of the BPPV myself.
I do it now occasionally when feeling off to make sure everything is in its place.
AS for sleeping on my bad side (yes the right) I just feel uncomforatble, but the research shows I can't really do any damage sleeping on it. I have spent so little time on that side in the past year that my brain hasn't compensated yet for that postion so I will need to get through the uncomfortable feelings before I can sleep in any position. Have to rush to work, sorry so short
..."Any thoughts or suggestions on the subject?"....
If u look at the videos in the "sticky" u will see that it can take two to three years---for some people----to get out of the hole this thing can dig---so a year---is not long---for this junk---I would not be in a rush---to sleep on that side---ur body/brain---will let u know when---its time to test those waters---just focus on getting to 100%---the rest will take care of it self
Good luck---oh---forgot---took me 13/14 months to get to 100%---an another one and half years---before I went back to sleeping on the bad side(right side)---don't have a problem---now at all---but still don't do it---that often.
Thank you for your prompt responses. It really gives me a helps a lot knowing that there are people out there that are going through similar things and can help with suggestions. I mean, sorry that you two are/were suffering, but good to know that I'm not the only crazy person not sleeping on the "bad" side.
My story is a bit more complicated then just BPPV. Well, that episode last year was just one that came with a "name tag", if you know what I mean, the others vestibular things I have been suffering from are not always that easy to identify.
My problems started with a blow to the head in 1998, three days later I was dizzy, unbalanced, fatigued and terribly brain fogged. It went on for 6 weeks and I was bedridden (what a mistake! Now I know), I gradually felt better and went back to work and normal life. Occasionally I would have a couple of days or weeks of fatigue, dizziness and unbalance, and then it would resolve after a couple of days of rest. From year 2000, I had short vertigo episodes that lasted a few hours or a one day, about once a year. From 2002 the dizzy spells (with severe fatigue) became more permanent, and my reaction to motion sickness became worst (I had motion sickness since childhood). I had also some other weird reactions like feeling that I am on a ship in storm for a few hours after spending a few hours in the library, under a blinking neon light. Exactly a year ago I got a BPPV episode one night, and waited, as usual, for it to resolve by itself. For the first time it went on for 4 days (mainly nights, in bed…you know). After it resolved I was still not feeling well: dizzy, unbalance, fatigue nauseous and motion sensation. Three weeks later, got a BPPV episode again. This time I began to do research on the web, and heard about the Epely maneuver. Went to the best neuro-otoligst in my country. He diagnosed BPPV and preformed the Epley. The maneuver was successful; the BPPV went away, but then new and additional problems came. FC, That is why I think that they are from the Epley, because I did not have them previously. Anyways, I saw the neuro-otoligst again after a month, and he was surprised to hear that I was feeling so bad. He said that he heard of this kind of reaction for a day or two after the epley, but a month later?!?! He sent me to additional tests (Head CT, EEG, blood tests) that came back OK. He said that he could not help me any more…. The next neurologist I saw said he thinks that those reactions are from the Epley, and that if I get BPPV again, better not do the Epley again. I think that he is right, and for that reason I would be afraid to do the MEP.
Well, I won't go on with all the details, this is my story in a nutshell. So as you see Subs, since I got the blow to the head, I really did not have time to compensate, and I just keep on getting more and more vestibular symptoms. No doctor or neurologist could tell me what happened with that blow to the head, and what is causing all this vestibular mess I am going through for almost 8 years. It seems to me that the people here on the boards are more knowledgeable then most of the doctors I met so far.
I am trying to keep active physically, and in high spirits, trying to find a way to live with this situation. The part of not sleeping on my "bad" side, and not knowing if the BPPV can reoccur on that side is really bugging me.
Ok---got it---it would not be unusual for that event---to result---in "Atypical" BPPV---i.e., rocks not in Posterior Canal---in one of the other canals(like the Lateral)---see the Northwestern Univ web site(sticky)---look for:
..."Went to the best neuro-otoligst in my country"...."He said that he could not help me any more"....
First choice Northwestern, Second choice Univ of Penn, Third choice John Hopkins, Fourth Choice Harvard(guy who did videos in sticky)...etc..
...."to find a way to live with this situation."....
Unless---u have some very rare---form---of this junk(BPPV)---which is not likely---possible---but not likely---might want to continue to search for a fix---
U are correct---in that---unless/until---ur get the rocks out---and they stay out---u will not compensate---see "Chronic Dizziness"---in sticky---it was written by Univ of Penn Balance Center Doc's
The other symptoms u describe---are not at all unusual--for any inner ear injury---BPPV, Lab, VN---as for what happened with the blow to the head---as u know---from the research---u have done---the the rocks---got knocked out into the canal(s)---while motion sickness as a child---could be important---not likely---related---to a injury---from a blow---vision probs---lights---super market alse...etc---all par for the course---think if u find someone who knows what their doing---they can/could get u in a position to compensate back to near 100%----not all can/do---but most can & do---once they get the right Dx/help---give it a shot---u can always go back to---learning to live with it
Thank you for your extended reply, and your willingness to help me understand my condition. I am going through a small relapse. I forgot to add that I also have some vision problems, therefore was not able to read all the articles you sent me to. I was familiar with the BPPV one, but read it again now and I didn’t finish reading the "Chronic Dizziness" one (had to print it out doubled space), and will see if it can give me some clues.
I wanted to answer the assumptions you offered here, and also add some more information, and if it possible, I would be thankful if we can continue the discussion.
I think that my case is a hard one to solve, and one of the main problems now, is that I don’t know any more what symptoms are causes and which are results. For instance, some of the feeling I had before BPPV could be interpreted as results of BPPV, because I had them also after BPPV, and in between the BPPV episodes.
This is all so complicated, so I am dividing it up to numbered sections:
1. ...."a blow to the head in 1998"....it would not be unusual for that event---to result---in "Atypical" BPPV---i.e., rocks not in Posterior Canal---in one of the other canals."The problem here is that the Vertigo came only some 2.5 YEARS after the blow. 3 days after the blow the symptoms that began were different: dizziness, unbalance, brain fog. That went on for 6 week and then resolved. My first vertigo episode was a few hours, and was not diagnosed at the time. The next two were also short and not diagnosed. I don’t remember them so clearly, but think that they were BPPV. My last 3 were longer and thus diagnosed as BPPV. So, did the BPPV occur without connection to the blow to head? Is it a coincident that I was experiencing other diz-balance problems and also got BPPV?
2. I think that it is all connected, because around the same time I became very sensitive to sea sickness, even more then before, and also had weird episodes that I couldn't understand then, and I think I understand them now and can connect them to specific things (i.e. sensitive to neon (florescent lights), occasional balance loss, hyper-sea sickness). But I do not know if they are direct results of the blow to the head or other things that happened parallel with out connection. Somehow they all seem to be connected to inner ear, so my gut feeling is that some damage happened with the blow. What is the nature of this damage?!?!?
3. ..."Went to the best neuro-otoligst in my country"...."He said that he could not help me any more".......First choice Northwestern, Second choice Univ of Penn, Third choice John Hopkins, Fourth Choice Harvard"
"…..think if u find someone who knows what their doing---they can/could get u in a position to compensate back to near 100%----not all can/do---but most can & do---once they get the right Dx/help---give it a shot"Unfortunately I am not living in the US but in a small country far away. I saw two top specialists here (one neuro-oto and one neurologist for a broader perspective). They brought me to were I am today, which is a few steps forwards, but not to 100%. Therefore, the changing of information on the web is valuable to me. I know now more about my condition then my general doctor. I am not seeking a new neuro-otoligst now. I have a name of another good one here, but am saving in case I get a bad decomposition, like BPPV reoccurring (knock wood!).
4. "….unless/until---ur get the rocks out---and they stay out---u will not compensate—"Is it possible to have rocks in the canal but not have BPPV (haven’t had an episode in a year)? Could it be that with the blow some thing moved a bit, not not a bit to cause BPPV, and that happened only after 2.5 years?
5. Some additional information about my condition: >>>I found out that I am sensitive to neon lights, and have a pair of custom made dark glasses I wear indoors. That makes a tremendous change.>>>I had reoccurring B12 deficiency. I have it now under control. I know for sure that it contributed to my dizziness and fatigue (lack of energy).>>> I had a stiff neck. An osteopath detected a severe stiffness in the back of my neck, apparently from the blow on my head and from wrong posture over the years. I was regularly going to him for a year and a half, at times feeling better, at times feeling worse, in relation to his treatment. He finally got my neck released, and I do exercise each day to keep it that way. I believe that some of the dizziness (not vertigo) that I was suffering from came from the neck. There is a certain type of dizziness I had, that went away since fixing the neck >>>Eyes: I had glasses that didn’t seem to be the right prescription any more, and just went without my glasses (They are not a high number). After going over the years to different eye doctors and optometrists, and checking if some of the dizziness is caused from the eyes, because I always felt like my eyes had problems focusing, and occasionally vision blurred, or bounced. A few months ago found a different very good optometrist. He was very patient, listened to all my vestibular problems. Examined me for over an hour, saw that my numbers when down in fact and made me a pair of glasses, but added a prism, since one eye was going the other direction. Came back after a week, because the glasses made me dizzier. After checking me again, sent me to an ort-optic specialist, who examined me for a few hours! He said I have a very sever case of "lazy eye". I can not see my own nose, and could not focus inwards some 15 centimeters from my nose, and then my eye just, "jumped out", hence giving me the "out of focus" feeling. He gave me exercise to do with my eyes, to get the lazy eye working. The exercise occasionally result in splitting head aces (as if dizziness is not enough), but am seeing progresses. He told my optometrist to make me glasses with out the prism, just the number. I need them for long distance, TV, movies, lectures with power point presentation, driving etc. Got them, made me very dizzy, had an awful relapse. I know that I have to get used to them slowly, but decided to propone it till after I finish this huge project I am working on (hopefully it will be in 3-4 month). Currently not wearing the glasses, but seeing OK.
The last bit of info: am currently doing Tai-Chi and Chi-Kong exercise each morning for 1/2 an hour, going to acupuncture regularly, going to a therapist regularly. Walking 3-4 times a week (45 mins), eating healthy, getting enough sleep at night, working mainly near the computer doing research and writing, getting rest + recreation during the week ends, generally reducing stress.
Generally now, after taking care of neon lights, B12 deficiency, neck and lazy eye, year passed since last BPPV episode, changing to a healthier life style I rose from the pits to 85-95%. But not able to get to that 100% goal, and to get rid of this never ending story. I feel that I got on top of most of it, but there is still one part that is left unknown for me, and that includes the not being able to sleep on the bad side, and not hitting 100%.
Sorry for this being so long, I tried to compress all the relevant info here.
I was so upset to read this post especially after reading what a wonderful time you had on vacation. How are you doing? Any improvement? I'm hoping that you have just overworked yourself and this is indeep just an odd blip in your recovery. I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and sending out plenty of those positive feel good vibes. Please let us know how you are doing.
I woke up last Friday morning and now my whole world is unsteady. I am even having trouble reading this board, but maybe you guys would comment for me. As I'm sure you have all done, I am trying to educate myself quickly about this disorder, and I am hoping you can help me.
Initial vertigo episodes were so horrific, so went through weekend in a fog and didn't lie down or tilt head. I'm an insulin dependent diabetic, so initially thought I'd had a stroke, but also have a friend who had BPPV. Went to an audiologist (can't get into a neurotologist till end of July) Monday am. After all kinds of testing, they say I have horizontal canal BPPV on right side and 70% Vestibular deficit (think that is the word) on left. My history is of motion sickness as a child and adult, occurred on 3 cruises severely, and migraines years ago. About 6 weeks ago I stood up in my laundry room and hit my head on the dryer door. First vertigo happened Fri morn as I was lying back down in bed after being up. It happens on both sides for me.
Since the audiologist maneuvered my head on Monday, I have actually felt worse, altho' yesterday afternoon was a little better. But my head is splitting--really hurting all over. Did you all have headaches when first treated? Also, my vision is foggy for lack of a better work, and very very hard to focus to look distantly or read.
I see the audiologist again this am, I guess for more testing, altho' she thinks she was able to clear my right canal on Mon. Told to sleep with bad side down last night, and lying down for first time there was less vertigo. I am also very nauseated, but can still eat, and very very pale.
Would you guys comment to me about whether you think all this is the usual course of this problem. Let me say, as a nurse, I always thought vertigo was more of a terrible dizzy kind of feeling--NEVER understood how unbelievably horrible the spinning and true vertigo is. I admire all of you for somehow going on with your lives, because I am tempted to sit forever. Oh, I think she will tell me to start some exercises today.
Thank you all very much. Lisa Marie
Interesting post---guess it proves the point that no two people are alike when it comes to this junk---we all have---some of the same symptoms with some overlapping
---think that is understandable--since what we are dealing with is an exceptionally integrated system(vestibular)--I know for me--my vestibular injury(Lab, VN then BPPV--with vision probs)presented so many conflicting and overlapping symptoms---and started long before it presented as a full blown vestibular injury---I got lost---trying to figure out what the heck was going on.
So--knew if I was going to defeat this junk---I was going to have to understand it---at a level of detail---not normally required--of most probs/injuries/sickness---so I backed off---started---over---the beginning---with the Northwestern Univ web site(sticky) operated by Prof/Dr Hain--first post on this board---the beginningfrom that web site)
..."THE PRIMITIVE BRAIN
It must be remembered that in some very primitive species lacking both a cerebrum and a cerebellum, the inner ear is the brain, performing many of the same functions performed by the cerebellum in higher species. It is thought that through evolution our cerebellum and cerebrum developed out of the vestibular system. Because of this, there is a high degree of integration between the cerebellum and the inner ear..........".........
Go here for the remainder of the Northwestern Univ research paperpost #1 in the thread)
That told me how integrated the vestibular system was and how many other systems it could screw up---if it sent out "bum" information or if the other systems sent "bum" signals to it---so I began to understand---how I could have so many overlapping symptoms---then went a level lower---and since the brain is the central processing/integrating function---focused on it's inputs/outputs(located in this thread):
......."If you go to the various web sites on vestibular problems---at most of the "Balance Centers" of excellence---you run across---a discussion on a somatic sense called:
(somatic senses are nervous system functions that collect sensory information from the body but are not one of the special senses of sight, hearing, taste, touch, or smell)
Typically, three somatic senses are described; pain, thermoreceptivity, and mechanoreceptivity.
The latter of which includes "tactile" and "position" sense.
Most of these Balance Centers agree that there are THREE inputs to the "Brain's" balance center----and under normal circumstances they provide that information as follows:
The discussions center on what happens when the vestibular signal goes "Nutso" because of an inner ear problem, BPPV, Lab, VN, etc.....
While most people have a fairly good grasp on the first two(vision & vestibular) that last one(Proprioception)---is kind of elusive.
As you can see from the short(:-} description below---and if you think about it----when the vestibular system gets "hosed up" ---among other things---it screws up---the brain's ability to keep aware of equilibrium and any changes to it---and that throws a "heavy load" on the Proprioception System---actually throws it off-stride---which in turn----causes a lot of the problems(we post about) with the bodies "posture and movement and control" of the coordinated action of more than 650 muscles.........."..........
Saw how pervasive this thing can be---how many symptoms it could generate---both before---during---and after---began to realize---most---while important---were caused & just part of---the path this junk takes---to a full blown event---and with most of the VN Lab infections ending up as BPPV---strongly suspected if I could get the "rocks out"---then I could get the brain to compensate through VRT exercises---while I could not explain all the symptoms/timing---from what I read---figured it was BPPV---and started down that path---with the various maneuvers---until Scott found the MEP---and I settled in on that---which got me to 85-90%--and I hung up--because I had forgot my vision prob(preexisting)---got that corrected--and continued on to 100%---took 13/14 months---will be two years at 100% in Jul 06.
...."The last bit of info: am currently doing Tai-Chi and Chi-Kong exercise each morning for 1/2 an hour,........."..............
---need to do the VRT located in the "sticky"---to force the brain to deal with movements u would not normally make and reenforce those through repetition---every thing u listed---notwithstanding
...."I feel that I got on top of most of it, but there is still one part that is left unknown for me, and that includes the not being able to sleep on the bad side, and not hitting 100%."....
Hold off on the "sleep on the bad side"----comes much later and only after u reach 100%---and have been there for awhile---took me 1 1/2 years at 100% before I could---and I still don't do it that often
----as for the 100%----the "Chronic Dizziness"(sticky) paper explains---it should happen---for most-----for me the hang up was "Vision"---and since it provides 40% of the signals to the brain's equilibrium center--that's a "big" prob!
Sounds like ur almost there---in fact it sounds like me---just prior to correcting my preexisting vision prob.